Jeez, all the pearl clutchers in here desperately trying to find a law she broke so they can report her to the manager.

jaawwnn said:

Jeez, all the pearl clutchers in here desperately trying to find a law she broke so they can report her to the manager.

RJOrion said:

PennyPurple said:

And now we see why she's taking a break from Twitter, with comments like RJ's.

good...she needs to fall back and reflect on her life and her actions...and she needs to heed the advise of people who are telling her to clean up her act... she's perpetuating stereotypes that black female entertainers have to be sexualized to be prominent or successful...shes been performing in lingerie, and bra and panties and such, since she started becoming a thing...if she dressed like MC Lyte, or Queen Latifah did when they performed, she'd be anonymous ... but a black woman half naked, and twerking and shaking, and selling sex, is what the powerbrokers in entertainment continue to shove down our collective consciousness... its demeaning and disrespctful to black women and black culture in general...and the women who willingly participate in this, need to know that and react accordingly...

You commented a little (above) on stage performances.

You also (in another comment) said, "...as much as im a fan of Prince Nelson, i was NEVER a fan of his gender bending persona, or his assless pants, or him simulating being dry humped onstage by the Game Boys..."

Curious to hear thoughts on persona and any stereotypes connected to...the Time and the Morris Day persona, or to Vanity 6 performances.

rednblue said:

RJOrion said:

rednblue said:

You commented a little (above) on stage performances.

You also (in another comment) said, "...as much as im a fan of Prince Nelson, i was NEVER a fan of his gender bending persona, or his assless pants, or him simulating being dry humped onstage by the Game Boys..."

Curious to hear thoughts on persona and any stereotypes connected to...the Time and the Morris Day persona, or to Vanity 6 performances.

i dont have any random "thoughts" about the "persona or any stereotypes" concerning the bolded topics...do you have a specific question(s) about them?...

Thank you for your response! I appreciate that you say that "as much as I'm a fan of Prince Nelson," there are instances in his performances that you don't like. I said a similar thing in a discussion of lyrics. Someone said that if there are things you don't like in Prince's work, you aren't a full fan. I found that point of view curious. I would guess that there are lots of people who love a great deal of Prince's vast body of work, but find that here and there, they're not fans of certain choices/visuals/words/directions/etc.

Anyway, you noted, in connection with a description of how Lizzo tends to dress and make provocative references when performing, a concern about feeding into destructive stereotypes of black women. Do some Vanity 6 performances raise any similar concerns for you given what they asked of Denise Matthews?

Also, do you have any reservations about how the Morris Day persona was all about the pimp stereotype?

rednblue said:

RJOrion said:

rednblue said:

Thank you for your response! I appreciate that you say that "as much as I'm a fan of Prince Nelson," there are instances in his performances that you don't like. I said a similar thing in a discussion of lyrics. Someone said that if there are things you don't like in Prince's work, you aren't a full fan. I found that point of view curious. I would guess that there are lots of people who love a great deal of Prince's vast body of work, but find that here and there, they're not fans of certain choices/visuals/words/directions/etc.

Anyway, you noted, in connection with a description of how Lizzo tends to dress and make provocative references when performing, a concern about feeding into destructive stereotypes of black women. Do some Vanity 6 performances raise any similar concerns for you given what they asked of Denise Matthews?

Also, do you have any reservations about how the Morris Day persona was all about the pimp stereotype?

2 of the members of Vanity 6 were not black, so im not concerned about how they as a group were portrayed since they are collectively not (Vanity was multiethnic, not "black") black women nor were they considered a black act ...Morris Day's "pimp" persona was implied, not perpetuated...he never had a woman selling sex for his financial gain on records or on film...just wearing zoot suits and processed hair and throwing a woman in the dumpster doesnt make you a pimp

Great points!

Yes, as you point out, my wording was off. In a similar way, gigolo would also be off--despite the song. : ) I think the stereotype of promiscuous playboy was more was what I really wanted to ask about. Do you have hesitations about that stereotype?

Great point, too, about Vanity 6.

rednblue said:

RJOrion said:

nor were they considered a black act

But they were played mostly on R&B radio and got coverage in black magazines like Right On! & Rock n Soul. They didn't really get crossover airplay on the mainstream Top 40 like a Lionel Richie or Whitney Houston. Vanity 6 videos were also on BET and not MTV.

MickyDolenz said:

Cinny said:

PliablyPurple said:

The "think of the children" "it's a family atmosphere" rallying cries, imo, are entirely dismissing that just about every nba halftime show is a scantily clad strip tease. Family friendly, tho, I guess. Yeah yeah yeah, they are athletic. No argument with that. But come on, cheerleaders during nba halftime shows are not what we would call properly clothed for any other "family friendly" event.

Thank you. And in a normally hetero-sexist atmosphere, Lizzo would be welcomed if she fit their idea of a cheerleader body type.

To be fair Cardi B has received just as much criticism if not more for pussy poppin/twerking and

she has the prototype body.

RJOrion said:

the person asked MY thoughts on Vanity 6...i PERSONALLY dont consider them a black act, regardless of how radio format tried to pigeonhole them...theyre simply not a group of black women... radio and magazines cant change that fact...therefore im not as concerned about Vanity 6s portrayal or subsequent stereotyping. [Edited 1/27/20 11:55am]

So you consider Johnny Mathis, 5th Dimension, or Tracy Chapman "black acts" when they generally didn't get as much attention with black audiences over Teena Marie, Average White Band, Hall & Oates, and George Michael who did. My mom says Sammy Davis Jr is "white music". What about mixed groups like Booker T & The MGs, Sly & The Family Stone, and Rufus. KC & The Sunshine Band is pretty much a black band with a white singer.

MickyDolenz said:

RJOrion said:

if youre black, youre black...i could care less what other demographics or radio stations or media say...or what the music sounds like...im not even sure what it is youre trying to say...im not interested in discussing what multi-ethnic bands should be classified as, or how...or talking about white acts who make "black music"...or black acts that make "white music"... my initial comments are about Lizzo twerking her big naked ass at an NBA game.. not KC & The Sunshine Band's racial composition, and/or their genre classification

You said Vanity was multi ethnic and not black. For many black people is in the USA, it's likely there's a white (or other ethnicity like Native American) ancestor, especially in the south, so what's the difference? You sound like Hitler's "pure white race", when there's no such thing

MickyDolenz said:

MotownSubdivision said:

People, stop making excuses for stupidity. It's not becoming.

....and there it is

RJOrion said:

2 of the members of Vanity 6 were not black, so im not concerned about how they as a group were portrayed since they are collectively not (Vanity was multiethnic, not "black") black women nor were they considered a black act ...Morris Day's "pimp" persona was implied, not perpetuated...he never had a woman selling sex for his financial gain on records or on film...just wearing zoot suits and processed hair and throwing a woman in the dumpster doesnt make you a pimp

Huh? Vanity's dad was Afro-American.

The only white one in the group is Brenda Bennett.

PennyPurple said:

MotownSubdivision said:

MotownSubdivision said:

People, stop making excuses for stupidity.

What is Lizzo doing that Madonna didn't do in the 1980s & 1990s? People complained about Madonna, it never hurt her career, she's still here. Madonna was a big seller too. Some complained about Michael Jackson & rappers grabbing their crotch. Yet hip hop is the #1 genre now. People complaining is why parental advisory sticker were created, yet that backfired because that made teens want to buy the records, which increased sales, at least at first. It seems to me that rap became more mainstream popular after the stickers (2 Live Crew, NWA) than before when it had little or no profanity. 2 Live Crew was underground until the media blew up their popularity by talking about their records. People complain about the Kardashians, yet they became millionaires by having many followers who watch their TV show or buy their products. People complained about comic books in the 1950s, but superhero movies are the biggest box office makers today. So some people not liking something has no effect on people who support it. The Beyhive is a good example of that.

Lizzo Announced as Osheaga Festival Headliner After Grammy Wins

1/27/2020 by Dave Brooks Billboard

Less than 24 hours after Lizzo won three Grammy Awards and opened the 62nd annual telecast Sunday with a rousing performance, the "Truth Hurts" singer was announced as one of three headliners for Montreal's Osheaga festival at Parc Jean Drapeau, July 31 to Aug. 2.

The Saturday night headliner will be joined by Dave Grohl​'s Foo Fighters, who will make their first appearance at one of Canada's best known and longest running festivals. Sunday will close with a performance from Pulitzer prize winning rapper Kendrick Lamar, who last played Osheaga in 2015.

This year's lineup also includes Vampire Weekend, who won a Grammy for best alternative album, Bon Iver, Alabama Shakes front woman and Grammy performer Brittany Howard, singer-songwriter Lewis Capaldi and Leon Bridges.

Also making an appearance at this year's Osheaga will be pioneering electronic act Kraftwerk, Brockhampton, rapper French Montana, Australian indie pop star Tones And I, Canadian singer and 2018 Juno winner Jessie Reyez and indie pop star Rex Orange County.

Launched by Nick Farkas and Gillett Entertainment Group, which is now evenko, the festival hosts more than 100 acts on an island in the middle of the St. Lawrence River with a view of the Montreal skyline. Last year, evenko announced it was partnering with Live Nation as part of a larger initiative to grow entertainment opportunities in Quebec and Atlantic Canada.

General admission starts at 325 Canadian dollars, with gold tickets priced at 600 Canadian dollars and platinum at 1,250 Canadian dollars. Tickets go on sale Tuesday at 10 a.m. EST. Learn more at osheaga.com.

RJOrion said:

PennyPurple said:

Huh? Vanity's dad was Afro-American.

The only white one in the gro7up is Brenda Bennett.

i know that...and it has absolutey nothing to do with Lizzo..i dont recall ANY of those 3 ladies twerking their naked asses at any sporting events

Huh? this is what you said: 2 of the members of Vanity 6 were not black.

MickyDolenz said:

MotownSubdivision said:

People, stop making excuses for stupidity.

What is Lizzo doing that Madonna didn't do in the 1980s & 1990s? People complained about Madonna, it never hurt her career, she's still here. Madonna was a big seller too. Some complained about Michael Jackson & rappers grabbing their crotch. Yet hip hop is the #1 genre now. People complaining is why parental advisory sticker were created, yet that backfired because that made teens want to buy the records, which increased sales, at least at first. It seems to me that rap became more mainstream popular after the stickers (2 Live Crew, NWA) than before when it had little or no profanity. 2 Live Crew was underground until the media blew up their popularity by talking about their records. People complain about the Kardashians, yet they became millionaires by having many followers who watch their TV show or buy their products. People complained about comic books in the 1950s, but superhero movies are the biggest box office makers today. So some people not liking something has no effect on people who support it. The Beyhive is a good example of that.

M did alot of things but she never waved her naked ass at a public sporting event for no other reason than attention seeking. Sure, M got her kit off plenty of times but there was always some sort of artistic reason behind it (whether it resulted in quality art was sometimes debatable, but still)

I have my own opinions, but in my comments here, I haven't made excuses for, or passed judgement on, anything.

I was asking RJ Orion about a couple of his comments (#19 and #25 on the first page of this thread) that included the following:

"...she's perpetuating stereotypes that black female entertainers have to be sexualized to be prominent or successful...shes been performing in lingerie, and bra and panties and such, since she started becoming a thing...a black woman half naked, and twerking and shaking, and selling sex, is what the powerbrokers in entertainment continue to shove down our collective consciousness... its demeaning and disrespctful to black women and black culture in general..."

"...as much as im a fan of Prince Nelson, i was NEVER a fan of his gender bending persona, or his assless pants, or him simulating being dry humped onstage by the Game Boys..."

I figured that given this...if RJ was a fan of Vanity 6 and Morris Day and The Time, he'd have a mixed reaction to some of the performances. Heck, I consider myself a huge Prince fan, and I've got mixed up reactions to some purple world performances.

So I said, "Anyway, you noted, in connection with a description of how Lizzo tends to dress and make provocative references when performing, a concern about feeding into destructive stereotypes of black women. Do some Vanity 6 performances raise any similar concerns for you given what they asked of Denise Matthews?

Also, do you have any reservations about how the Morris Day persona was all about the pimp stereotype?"

RJ Orion then pointed out that "Morris Day's 'pimp' persona was implied, not perpetuated"...

so I changed my wording to the "promiscuous player" stereotype.

RJ Orion said that he didn't have concern with portrayals in Vanity 6 performance, and that he had "no problem with Morris' character in PR."

So unless RJ feels any differently about the Morris Day character when he fronted The Time on stage, I was wrong in wondering if he had any mixed reaction to the Morris Day character or Vanity 6 performances, based on his issues with Lizzo's performances.

So in these responses to earlier comments on stage performances, where was I making excuses for anyone?

Would also be interested to hear any other thoughts on this Vanity 6/Morris Day and The Time/Lizzo performance reaction stuff.

[Edited 1/28/20 7:33am]

Where is the faux outrage at?

Lil Kim

Lil Kim at the 1998 VMA's, kids were watching on TV and in the audience.

Lil Kim at the MTV Music Awards, again kids present.

Nicki at a Lakers Game

My two cents is that the biggest reactioins here and elsewhere are not about the intersection between race and flaunting sexuality, but instead almost entirely from an obese woman flaunting sexuality. Where is the requisite shame! While I am far from turned on by the video, likely a product of my own cultural shaping, I do rather like her boldness in being proud of the body she has rather than trying to wear several layers to hide it. Part of her overall persona seems to be fun loving, and having fun with her sexuality is just an expression of this.

Has anyone noticed the sudden rise of overweight ladies being 'worshipped' everywhere? Supposedly destined to make all women feel proud and happy in their own body whilst promoting 'diversity'. That's good in itself, but the downside it that it also normalises unhealthiness. It's basically the same problem we had with skinny models but in reverse. Not a good thing.

CherryMoon57 said: