SeventeenDayze said:

namepeace said:

That's where I was going. Most black artists, like any other artist, won't collaborate with someone who won't help them sell to their own audiences. JT sells with black audiences. They're not lining up to do a collabo with Jason Aldean.

Which is why I asked, If black audiences are supporting a white artist -- and I felt the Super Bowl fiasco would hurt JT ong term, but it didn't -- how does that affect the argument that a white artist is coopting black music to sell to white audiences?

(Not directing that at you specifically, but at anyone in this thread.(

So is Pharrell paying the artist for them to create music or is HE getting paid for HIS sound? That's the whole point. It seems like some of you think that if a person is standing next to another artist that fundamentally changes the racial dynamic of the music industry! I'm also backing up what I am saying with historical facts but it seems to be glossed over a lot. Denial is the most powerful weapon to keep discussions of race to a minimum. Like I said, look up Pat Boone and "payola" and see it from that perspective.

[Edited 5/21/14 12:51pm]

You still haven't answered the question and your "historical facts" are cited out of context as a means of avoiding the question.

Do you deny that JT is supported by black audiences? "Payola" isn't an answer, and even if it is a factor in JT's success, it's hardly the sole factor.

If you want to have an honest conversation about race, one should recognize the basic facts that complicate -- but do not negate, per se -- one's position in the matter. If black audiences actually support JT -- and they do -- then one should deal with it as part of their critique.

If one cannot deal squarely with that fact, one should evaluate his capacity to engage in the conversation at all.

namepeace said:

SeventeenDayze said:

So is Pharrell paying the artist for them to create music or is HE getting paid for HIS sound? That's the whole point. It seems like some of you think that if a person is standing next to another artist that fundamentally changes the racial dynamic of the music industry! I'm also backing up what I am saying with historical facts but it seems to be glossed over a lot. Denial is the most powerful weapon to keep discussions of race to a minimum. Like I said, look up Pat Boone and "payola" and see it from that perspective.

[Edited 5/21/14 12:51pm]

You still haven't answered the question and your "historical facts" are cited out of context as a means of avoiding the question.

Do you deny that JT is supported by black audiences? "Payola" isn't an answer, and even if it is a factor in JT's success, it's hardly the sole factor.

If you want to have an honest conversation about race, one should recognize the basic facts that complicate -- but do not negate, per se -- one's position in the matter. If black audiences actually support JT -- and they do -- then one should deal with it as part of their critique.

If one cannot deal squarely with that fact, one should evaluate his capacity to engage in the conversation at all.

You don't like my opinion. Fine. Just get over it already. Thanks.

SeventeenDayze said:

namepeace said:

You still haven't answered the question and your "historical facts" are cited out of context as a means of avoiding the question.

Do you deny that JT is supported by black audiences? "Payola" isn't an answer, and even if it is a factor in JT's success, it's hardly the sole factor.

If you want to have an honest conversation about race, one should recognize the basic facts that complicate -- but do not negate, per se -- one's position in the matter. If black audiences actually support JT -- and they do -- then one should deal with it as part of their critique.

If one cannot deal squarely with that fact, one should evaluate his capacity to engage in the conversation at all.

You don't like my opinion. Fine. Just get over it already. Thanks.

Thanks for playing.

namepeace said:

SeventeenDayze said:

You don't like my opinion. Fine. Just get over it already. Thanks.

Thanks for playing.

Anytime LOL

I know exactly where Justin grew up. There is no way he could grow up and not hear black music (let's not debate over this term; you know what I mean). I'm sure he listened to K97 growing up. Are we trying to say that you can't grow up admiring, listening to and being influenced by R&B music and then turn around and appropriate it years later? That is what Justin has done. The facts are that he's not best R&B anything. How the hell are you gonna be best at an artform circled around rhythmic playing and exceptional singing and you are not an exceptional singer? This fool is a fraud and he knows he's a fraud. Does he sell a lot of records? Yes. He's a POP STAR. That's who sells records these days. That does not mean a damn thing other than what it is in the grand scheme of things. I have yet to hear a new R&B artist come out and cite Justin Timberlake as a big influence.

Does he have a huge black fanbase? GTFOHWTBS. A small minority of black folks dig Justin. He has Timbaland and Pharrell behind him. They would dig those same tracks if somebody else was singing them. When pop music sounds like R&B, why would R&B fans not like it? If it sounded like rock, wouldn't rock fans like it? Let's not try and pretend Justin's concert crowds aren't predominantly white. I know for a fact that they are, just like his fan base.

Dude has been a leech off black music from the jump. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE DOES NOT SINCERELY LIKE IT. Those are two different things. Someone can like you and copy your personal style and borrow from you all of the time and get props for it from others because they run in different circles from you. They like you AND they are using you. That is what Justin does. He's been doing this all along and people without blinders on can see it. He likes being popular. He has known since his youth how being the "white guy with flavor" has given him attention and how well it works for him. He just stays with that. He appropriates black culture. He is not the only one who does this (Robin Thicke, we see you) but he does do it. People see through that bullshit, so no matter how many times you call a chair a table, people who know better are still gonna sit in it.

He ain't foolin' nobody. People know when they are being used. If white America suddenly started to hate R&B sounding music, Justin would grow a mullet and start wearing plaid. He obviously loves popularity more than anything.

Oh and let me say this as well:

Even though I love Charlie Wilson's voice and admire his talent, people like him do duets with the likes of Justin Timberlake to help increase their own popularity. Opportunism works both ways.

BlaqueKnight said:

I know exactly where Justin grew up. There is no way he could grow up and not hear black music (let's not debate over this term; you know what I mean). I'm sure he listened to K97 growing up. Are we trying to say that you can't grow up admiring, listening to and being influenced by R&B music and then turn around and appropriate it years later? That is what Justin has done. The facts are that he's not best R&B anything. How the hell are you gonna be best at an artform circled around rhythmic playing and exceptional singing and you are not an exceptional singer? This fool is a fraud and he knows he's a fraud. Does he sell a lot of records? Yes. He's a POP STAR. That's who sells records these days. That does not mean a damn thing other than what it is in the grand scheme of things. I have yet to hear a new R&B artist come out and cite Justin Timberlake as a big influence.

Does he have a huge black fanbase? GTFOHWTBS. A small minority of black folks dig Justin. He has Timbaland and Pharrell behind him. They would dig those same tracks if somebody else was singing them. When pop music sounds like R&B, why would R&B fans not like it? If it sounded like rock, wouldn't rock fans like it? Let's not try and pretend Justin's concert crowds aren't predominantly white. I know for a fact that they are, just like his fan base.

Dude has been a leech off black music from the jump. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE DOES NOT SINCERELY LIKE IT. Those are two different things. Someone can like you and copy your personal style and borrow from you all of the time and get props for it from others because they run in different circles from you. They like you AND they are using you. That is what Justin does. He's been doing this all along and people without blinders on can see it. He likes being popular. He has known since his youth how being the "white guy with flavor" has given him attention and how well it works for him. He just stays with that. He appropriates black culture. He is not the only one who does this (Robin Thicke, we see you) but he does do it. People see through that bullshit, so no matter how many times you call a chair a table, people who know better are still gonna sit in it.

He ain't foolin' nobody. People know when they are being used. If white America suddenly started to hate R&B sounding music, Justin would grow a mullet and start wearing plaid. He obviously loves popularity more than anything.

I agree with most of what you said here. I think you're right that he has way more whites listening to his music than blacks. Someone higher up at his record label probably decided that they should pay Timbaland and/or Pharrell to be producers on the album. They are fully aware that JT tries to be seen as a so-called soul singer. But, when the lights go out, he keeps his distance from black America, count on that. As I said before, denial is a tactic used by the majority to discredit the validity of the feelings, emotions and perspectives of those who feel they are on the receiving end of racist non-sense. This is why some people are so eager to say "it's not racist" because it keeps others in a state of having to "prove" their point of view. It has been going on in America for generations.

BlaqueKnight said:

Oh and let me say this as well:

Even though I love Charlie Wilson's voice and admire his talent, people like him do duets with the likes of Justin Timberlake to help increase their own popularity. Opportunism works both ways.

I enjoyed Charlie Wilson's tribute....I noticed that the audience didn't applaud when JT came out but they did when Pharrell and Snoop did...

SeventeenDayze said:

BlaqueKnight said:

I know exactly where Justin grew up. There is no way he could grow up and not hear black music (let's not debate over this term; you know what I mean). I'm sure he listened to K97 growing up. Are we trying to say that you can't grow up admiring, listening to and being influenced by R&B music and then turn around and appropriate it years later? That is what Justin has done. The facts are that he's not best R&B anything. How the hell are you gonna be best at an artform circled around rhythmic playing and exceptional singing and you are not an exceptional singer? This fool is a fraud and he knows he's a fraud. Does he sell a lot of records? Yes. He's a POP STAR. That's who sells records these days. That does not mean a damn thing other than what it is in the grand scheme of things. I have yet to hear a new R&B artist come out and cite Justin Timberlake as a big influence.

Does he have a huge black fanbase? GTFOHWTBS. A small minority of black folks dig Justin. He has Timbaland and Pharrell behind him. They would dig those same tracks if somebody else was singing them. When pop music sounds like R&B, why would R&B fans not like it? If it sounded like rock, wouldn't rock fans like it? Let's not try and pretend Justin's concert crowds aren't predominantly white. I know for a fact that they are, just like his fan base.

Dude has been a leech off black music from the jump. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE DOES NOT SINCERELY LIKE IT. Those are two different things. Someone can like you and copy your personal style and borrow from you all of the time and get props for it from others because they run in different circles from you. They like you AND they are using you. That is what Justin does. He's been doing this all along and people without blinders on can see it. He likes being popular. He has known since his youth how being the "white guy with flavor" has given him attention and how well it works for him. He just stays with that. He appropriates black culture. He is not the only one who does this (Robin Thicke, we see you) but he does do it. People see through that bullshit, so no matter how many times you call a chair a table, people who know better are still gonna sit in it.

He ain't foolin' nobody. People know when they are being used. If white America suddenly started to hate R&B sounding music, Justin would grow a mullet and start wearing plaid. He obviously loves popularity more than anything.

I agree with most of what you said here. I think you're right that he has way more whites listening to his music than blacks. Someone higher up at his record label probably decided that they should pay Timbaland and/or Pharrell to be producers on the album. They are fully aware that JT tries to be seen as a so-called soul singer. But, when the lights go out, he keeps his distance from black America, count on that. As I said before, denial is a tactic used by the majority to discredit the validity of the feelings, emotions and perspectives of those who feel they are on the receiving end of racist non-sense. This is why some people are so eager to say "it's not racist" because it keeps others in a state of having to "prove" their point of view. It has been going on in America for generations.

-

I've noticed you mentioned this or a variation of this statement previously in the thread. I hate to say it but the majority of black artists today aren't being mistaken for Malcom X either

-

I don't think its required for a white singer to take up causes that directly affect the black community in order for them to genuinely love or appreciate soul music or create their own for that matter. How many times have people lamented of the fact that too many of today's generation don't have the balls or breast to stand up for anything? There's plenty of black artists that don't give two damns about anything other than their money to concern themselves with the socio-economic plight of any people or country. Again, there's no prerequisite for anybody to become an activist for the community in order to record Rhythm & Blues.

-

And I say this as someone who really doesn't like Justin as a person, forget singer. I think with Justin he's going to avoid conflict period. Image/brand comes before everything with this guy. Whether it's his "so-called" childhood crush, Janet or even his "so-called" idol, Michael during his legal woes. Justin is going to bounce and/or be silent. It's a reflection of selfishness sure, but moreso, cowardice to me. The fact that he would make fun of a homeless man and make him apart of a surprise wedding video gift to his newly-wedded wife at their reception is quite disturbing.

-

There are other examples but I forget because I don't like wasting my time on likes of people like him.

Not sure why out of everything that I wrote that you only put in bold one sentence that I wrote. I guess it's for the purposes of putting a spin on it, knowing full well that's not what I was getting at.

SeventeenDayze said:

Not sure why out of everything that I wrote that you only put in bold one sentence that I wrote. I guess it's for the purposes of putting a spin on it, knowing full well that's not what I was getting at.

I read it the same way Musicslave did, because the reply made sense. I found it to be "bold" whether it was bolded font or not.

I am the same age and race [WHITE!] as Justin Timberlake, and I completely understand why he makes the music he does.

I even grew up in an area where *most* people listened to country [WHITE!], so I understand when I see him as a child being pushed to sing country (Star Search).

Between the Michael Jackson of the mid 80s (obvious influence) [BLACK!], New Jack Swing of the late 80s and early 90s [BLACK!] (very formative for a pre-teen, let alone the tracks he had to learn for Mickey Mouse Club, and didn't *NSync remake "Just Got Paid"?), and the mainstreaming of real R&B throughout the entire 90s [BLACK!], black music has been pretty much the only thing I ever listened to as well.

I know if I was making my R&B debut in 2002 I would have wanted Neptunes and Timbaland [BLACK!] on production too. A decade later, it turns out Timbaland [BLACK!] and Justin [WHITE!] work so well together, and even wrote as a songwriting team for other artists. Keep in mind Timbaland's other famous songwriting partner was Missy [BLACK!]. I doubt that was done all for the sake of politics and authenticity at the behest of Jive Records or something.



Justin's popularity lasted past the '00's, when almost all of the #1 hits were from BLACK acts. I can see why people are singling him out now, as #1 hits all seem to be from white acts this decade, so it *seems* to be a matter of white privilege now working to his advantage. But this also discredits how much people loved Justified and FSLS.

We all know that the industry has shrunk and is taking less and less risks, so it probably makes sense business-wise to push a white singer. I think this is why people turned on Robin Thicke too. It wasn't so evil when they weren't the ONLY stars of the genre.




ahem spacing

[Edited 5/22/14 14:49pm]

[Edited 5/22/14 14:49pm]

So appropriation is just a figment of the imagination of blacks and historians then? Thanks.

[Edited 5/22/14 15:24pm]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/olivia-cole/dear-forbes-this-is-why-i_b_5366159.html?utm_hp_ref=entertainment&ir=Entertainment

Tank: Justin Timberlake & Robin Thicke Are Making Better R&B Than Black Artists

"We can’t hate on what it is.. we’re where we are… and Robin Thicke and Justin Timberlake are doing R&B music better than us… we need to catch up. What am I gonna do about the fact that the AMA’s in the R&B soul category nominated Robin Thicke, Justin Timberlake and Rihanna?.. What am I gonna do about that? It’s not her fault that she’s in the R&B soul category"

http://allhiphop.com/2014/02/11/tank-justin-timberlake-robin-thicke-are-making-better-rb-than-black-artists-video

[Edited 5/22/14 15:49pm]

Is this one of these discussions where the whites reading this are just itching to say "Hey whites are better than blacks at doing "black" things? Very odd that there are many who cannot admit that the appropriation of black music has and always will happen on some level. Like I said before, the whole game is to take something and then act as if you were/are better at said thing the whole time. That's nothing new in America.

[Edited 5/22/14 15:59pm]

SeventeenDayze said:

Is this one of these discussions where the whites reading this are just itching to say "Hey whites are better than blacks at doing "black" things? Very odd that there are many who cannot admit that the appropriation of black music has and always will happen on some level. Like I said before, the whole game is to take something and then act as if you were/are better at said thing the whole time. That's nothing new in America.

[Edited 5/22/14 15:59pm]

This quote comes from RNB BLACK artist Tank in case you didn't know. He knows how it is.

[Edited 5/22/14 16:03pm]

FunkyD said:

SeventeenDayze said:

Is this one of these discussions where the whites reading this are just itching to say "Hey whites are better than blacks at doing "black" things? Very odd that there are many who cannot admit that the appropriation of black music has and always will happen on some level. Like I said before, the whole game is to take something and then act as if you were/are better at said thing the whole time. That's nothing new in America.

[Edited 5/22/14 15:59pm]

This quote comes from RNB BLACK artist Tank in case you didn't know. He knows how it is.

[Edited 5/22/14 16:03pm]

So Tank has the final say on all matters related to the subject at hand? If Tank said that you should jump off a bridge, would you do it?

Besides, is Tank just saying this because he wants to promote his own name. You know that formula of saying something and then backpedaling later once it gets in the media....

Amazing that Tank has the final say on this stuff.....Did you bother reading the Huffington Post story that I posted? Probably not because it is written by a WHITE person who is pointing out how white artists appropriate styles, etc. What's so hard about admitting this?

[Edited 5/22/14 16:11pm]

SeventeenDayze said:

FunkyD said:

This quote comes from RNB BLACK artist Tank in case you didn't know. He knows how it is.

[Edited 5/22/14 16:03pm]

So Tank has the final say on all matters related to the subject at hand? If Tank said that you should jump off a bridge, would you do it?

Besides, is Tank just saying this because he wants to promote his own name. You know that formula of saying something and then backpedaling later once it gets in the media....

Amazing that Tank has the final say on this stuff.....

that's bullshit and you know it. Admitting that another artist is making better music than yourself is not what i'd call promoting your own work. This was a case of him being honest.

and the fact that he said this shows the level of respect JT's peers have for him and being an Rnb artist adds some weight to his opinion.

[Edited 5/22/14 20:33pm]

Has Justin done a Dirty Diana, Give In To Me, Shout, Come Together, D.S, Morphine, State Of Shock or a Beat It?

.

Is Michael wrong for doing the odd tradionally 'white' rock song?

.

I hate this thread. It's stupid. Consider this is Prince.org a forum devoted to a man that has no musical boundaries.

.

A big NO all around!!!

[Edited 5/22/14 16:32pm]

FunkyD said:

SeventeenDayze said:

So Tank has the final say on all matters related to the subject at hand? If Tank said that you should jump off a bridge, would you do it?

Besides, is Tank just saying this because he wants to promote his own name. You know that formula of saying something and then backpedaling later once it gets in the media....

Amazing that Tank has the final say on this stuff.....

that's bullshit and you know it. Admitting that another artist is making better music than yourself is not what i'd call promoting. This was a case of him being honest.

The fact that he said this shows the level of respect JT's peers have for him and being an Rnb artist adds some weight to his opinion.

[Edited 5/22/14 16:25pm]

Why are you getting upset? It doesn't take too long to recognize certain patterns of behavior? JT thinks he's Michael Jackson and he's NOT Michael Jackson. I don't know why we are mentioning all these other artists because that's not what the original topic was about. Did you gloss over the article that I posted? Yes.....If you'd like to go more off topic, why don't we talk about how America was founded? Who killed the Indians? Who had slaves? Who created Jim Crow? Who is Pat Boone? Did Miley learn twerking from a white woman? LOL

[Edited 5/22/14 16:31pm]

FunkyD said:

SeventeenDayze said:

Is this one of these discussions where the whites reading this are just itching to say "Hey whites are better than blacks at doing "black" things? Very odd that there are many who cannot admit that the appropriation of black music has and always will happen on some level. Like I said before, the whole game is to take something and then act as if you were/are better at said thing the whole time. That's nothing new in America.

[Edited 5/22/14 15:59pm]

This quote comes from RNB BLACK artist Tank in case you didn't know. He knows how it is.

[Edited 5/22/14 16:03pm]

Okay since you value Tank's opinion so much, read Wendy's opinion here and let me know if it carries the same weight as Tank's comments apparently did to you. Thanks.

http://madamenoire.com/306499/wendy-williams-talks-miley-cyrus-justin-timberlake-misappropriating-black-culture/

SeventeenDayze said:

FunkyD said:

that's bullshit and you know it. Admitting that another artist is making better music than yourself is not what i'd call promoting. This was a case of him being honest.

The fact that he said this shows the level of respect JT's peers have for him and being an Rnb artist adds some weight to his opinion.

[Edited 5/22/14 16:25pm]

Why are you getting upset? It doesn't take too long to recognize certain patterns of behavior? JT thinks he's Michael Jackson and he's NOT Michael Jackson. I don't know why we are mentioning all these other artists because that's not what the original topic was about. Did you gloss over the article that I posted? Yes.....

give me a break.. JT never thought he was MJ. your really believe that JT is delusial enough to consider himself on MJ's level? If he really believes so than he should be sent to a psychiatric ward right away.

Is he highly influenced by MJ's music? Obviously yes.

Did MJ ever seem bothered by that? Never. He probably was happy seeing how much of an impact he's had on other artists and actually gave a cosign to JT

If MJ never seemed bothered by an artist being highly influenced by him why all the outrage?

This thread is about exposing JT as a fake but how can that be the case when he even gets co signs from his peers..

[Edited 5/22/14 20:45pm]

double post.

[Edited 5/22/14 16:49pm]

SeventeenDayze said:

So appropriation is just a figment of the imagination of blacks and historians then? Thanks.

If you are looking into how much an artist is actually devoted to it, you shouldn't call it appropriation. And no one said he is better than anyone else, he simply sells more.

Cinny said:

SeventeenDayze said:

Not sure why out of everything that I wrote that you only put in bold one sentence that I wrote. I guess it's for the purposes of putting a spin on it, knowing full well that's not what I was getting at.

I read it the same way Musicslave did, because the reply made sense. I found it to be "bold" whether it was bolded font or not.

Still need a clarification on "when the lights are out" comment.

Cinny said:

SeventeenDayze said:

So appropriation is just a figment of the imagination of blacks and historians then? Thanks.

If you are looking into how much an artist is actually devoted to it, you shouldn't call it appropriation. And no one said he is better than anyone else, he simply sells more.

I hear what you're saying but how do you even measure "devotion"? This guy basically "borrows" from certain black artists (he makes it a little less "black") and then he's off to the races to appease a certain demographic. Again, someone explain to me why nobody clapped when Timberlake made his entrance into the BET awards during Charlie Wilson's tribute?

How many whites will be at the Essence Festival?

Cinny said:

Cinny said:

I read it the same way Musicslave did, because the reply made sense. I found it to be "bold" whether it was bolded font or not.

Still need a clarification on "when the lights are out" comment.

It's the same thing as it's literal meaning. Once he plays around in "blackville" he can still not miss a beat by staying suburban and "white enough" for certain audiences. Oddly enough, the reverse is not true. You'll never see a black person pull that off unfortunately.

SeventeenDayze said:

Cinny said:

Still need a clarification on "when the lights are out" comment.

It's the same thing as it's literal meaning. Once he plays around in "blackville" he can still not miss a beat by staying suburban and "white enough" for certain audiences. Oddly enough, the reverse is not true. You'll never see a black person pull that off unfortunately.

I am sure that white people who don't appreciate R&B also don't make an exception for Justin Timberlake.

Cinny said:

SeventeenDayze said:

It's the same thing as it's literal meaning. Once he plays around in "blackville" he can still not miss a beat by staying suburban and "white enough" for certain audiences. Oddly enough, the reverse is not true. You'll never see a black person pull that off unfortunately.

I am sure that white people who don't appreciate R&B also don't make an exception for Justin Timberlake.

If I remember correctly, there was a thread here on the Org a while back talking about the death of R&B. Some of that "death" is because of hip-hop gradually taking over. Maybe this change was back in the 90s or early 2000s. It seemed like everything was slowly moving towards a pop sound. Remember when Mariah was at the top of her career and she always had two versions of every song. One version went to the pop station and theh other version always went to the hip-hop station. I think there are some strange dymanics in the music industry business that creates these outcomes.