SeventeenDayze said:

I see you skipped right over the discussion that was brough up about Michael McDonald and Teena Marie being authentic. Face it, JT appropriates black music then quickly exits out of "blackville" until he returns again to record an album. Face it, it's a colonial mentality. Show up some place that was never yours then justifying/denying the fact that you stole it from someone else and pretend that it was yours all along. Colonialism 101.....

[Edited 5/20/14 16:19pm]

I skipped over the McDonald and Teena Marie sections of this thread because it has no bearing

on my argument. It looks like you skipped over mine...

I agree with you! JT appropriates Black American art into his own art. Where your argument

becomes unfounded is when you suggest that this appropriation is akin to colonialistic under-

tones because of skin color. You are failing to take into consideration JT's upbringing and his

southern roots.

Your argument only holds if we assess JT's career and point out the debt he owes (and pays) to

Michael Jackson, and his response to that is: "Hunh? The fuck are you talking about? I'm not

influenced by Michael Jackson." Then we can start hurling these racist thunderbolts. But as

far as I know, JT's acknowledges this debt he owes (and pays) to MJ:

http://www.mtv.com/news/1...e-baddest/

Ironically, the only person misappropriating anything here is you! If you simply state: "I don't

like Justin Timberlake because he's too influenced by Michael Jackson," then I would cut you

some slack. But this racist/colonial argument you're presenting is ridiculous.

Here's Bieber in Cannes doing Tupac.....first the Mayweather intro and now this, LOL

http://www.tmz.com/2014/05/20/justin-bieber-2pac-rick-ross-rapping-cannes-video/

duccichucka said:

SeventeenDayze said:

I see you skipped right over the discussion that was brough up about Michael McDonald and Teena Marie being authentic. Face it, JT appropriates black music then quickly exits out of "blackville" until he returns again to record an album. Face it, it's a colonial mentality. Show up some place that was never yours then justifying/denying the fact that you stole it from someone else and pretend that it was yours all along. Colonialism 101.....

[Edited 5/20/14 16:19pm]

I skipped over the McDonald and Teena Marie sections of this thread because it has no bearing

on my argument. It looks like you skipped over mine...

I agree with you! JT appropriates Black American art into his own art. Where your argument

becomes unfounded is when you suggest that this appropriation is akin to colonialistic under-

tones because of skin color. You are failing to take into consideration JT's upbringing and his

southern roots.

Your argument only holds if we assess JT's career and point out the debt he owes (and pays) to

Michael Jackson, and his response to that is: "Hunh? The fuck are you talking about? I'm not

influenced by Michael Jackson." Then we can start hurling these racist thunderbolts. But as

far as I know, JT's acknowledges this debt he owes (and pays) to MJ:

http://www.mtv.com/news/1...e-baddest/

Ironically, the only person misappropriating anything here is you! If you simply state: "I don't

like Justin Timberlake because he's too influenced by Michael Jackson," then I would cut you

some slack. But this racist/colonial argument you're presenting is ridiculous.

Truth hurts don't it.....Do you think minorities can have the same thing happen? Can I just stroll into certain places and try to convince folks around me that I'm white all of a sudden? Nope. But, that's the same situation here. Timberlake has no qualms about ripping off other people. I know it must pain you to imagine that a white person would do something like that but it's true in this case. Why do some whites get so heated when discussions of race and history come up?

SeventeenDayze said:

duccichucka said:

I love ya, datdude, but this is the shit of a horse.

Now listen, I'm quick to call out white artists who usurp Black American art forms, get acclaimed

for their musical legacies, make gabillions of dollars, and are heralded as innovators, while their

Black American counter-parts and influences toil in obscurity and die broke. But one can argue

that Justin Timberlake's cultural influences are mostly Southern, which means he probably grew

up listening to Black American art forms. This then means that he is authentically influenced by

Black American art forms, gives credit to the Black Americans who have influenced him, and

does not pose as if he is the purveyor of something "new" that racist Americans won't listen from

a Black recording artist, but will listen if a version of that Black American music is coming from a

White American.

The hate that Timberlake is receiving in this thread is again, some kind of twisted, inverted racism

that believes that White American musicians cannot be heavily influenced by Black American art

forms without being accused of stealing. This is horseshit and unfair to White American recording

artists who are truly enamored with Black American culture. Using your hate-logic against you,

it invalidates the careers of Black Americans who are classical musicians and composers because

classical music is a "white thang." If there is a cute, Southern Black boy who grows up listening

to Black American music, can sing and dance, and has a "look," he is afforded the same

opportunity today, that was afforded to Justin Timberlake - how do you think Michael Jackson got

started?!?! As for Timberlake avoiding the blowback from Nipplegate, who gives a fuck? He tried

to dodge a career hit; that doesn't have anything to do with the color of his skin.

What is happening here in this thread is that y'all are up in arms because how dare a White boy

accept the mantle of being the King of Pop when there are other similarly talented Black American

artists on the scene. The fact of the matter is that Justin Timberlake is the only R&B influenced

mega-pop singer who is putting out classic albums a la Michael Jackson. Sorry - but get over it.

If your panties are in a bunch, tell Usher to cut the EDM crap and step his game up. No. I think

Justin Timberlake is purposefully shooting for a catalog that is analogous to MJ's and y'all are

hating him for his aspiration. You should be mad at Usher for the lack of aspiring to MJ's legacy or

being too awestruck by it.

Tsk, tsk.

I see you skipped right over the discussion that was brough up about Michael McDonald and Teena Marie being authentic. Face it, JT appropriates black music then quickly exits out of "blackville" until he returns again to record an album. Face it, it's a colonial mentality. Show up some place that was never yours then justifying/denying the fact that you stole it from someone else and pretend that it was yours all along. Colonialism 101.....

[Edited 5/20/14 16:19pm]

I've always respscted Teena Marie and Michael McDonald......because first of all...both were real artists.....

Scorp said:

SeventeenDayze said:

I see you skipped right over the discussion that was brough up about Michael McDonald and Teena Marie being authentic. Face it, JT appropriates black music then quickly exits out of "blackville" until he returns again to record an album. Face it, it's a colonial mentality. Show up some place that was never yours then justifying/denying the fact that you stole it from someone else and pretend that it was yours all along. Colonialism 101.....

[Edited 5/20/14 16:19pm]

I've always respscted Teena Marie and Michael McDonald......because first of all...both were real artists.....

Yeah those two have something different that I think Justin will never have. It's hard to describe but Timberlake is a faker to a certain extent. He enjoys copying other artists....

[Edited 5/20/14 20:05pm]

SeventeenDayze said:

Scorp said:

I've always respscted Teena Marie and Michael McDonald......because first of all...both were real artists.....

Yeah those two have something different that I think Justin will never have. It's hard to describe but Timberlake is a faker to a certain extent. He enjoys copying other artists....

[Edited 5/20/14 20:05pm]

exactly...McDonald and Teena were both authentic and did not co-opt, they made solid contribution to the musical arts...and neither was trying to be other than what they already was.....

Scorp said:

SeventeenDayze said:

Yeah those two have something different that I think Justin will never have. It's hard to describe but Timberlake is a faker to a certain extent. He enjoys copying other artists....

[Edited 5/20/14 20:05pm]

exactly...McDonald and Teena were both authentic and did not co-opt, they made solid contribution to the musical arts...and neither was trying to be other than what they already was.....

That makes a big difference for sure. Mcdonald nor Teena tried to pass off as something that they weren't. What makes JT bogus is that you can see from a mile away that he lacks authenticity in his style, singing, etc.

SeventeenDayze said:

duccichucka said:

I skipped over the McDonald and Teena Marie sections of this thread because it has no bearing

on my argument. It looks like you skipped over mine...

I agree with you! JT appropriates Black American art into his own art. Where your argument

becomes unfounded is when you suggest that this appropriation is akin to colonialistic under-

tones because of skin color. You are failing to take into consideration JT's upbringing and his

southern roots.

Your argument only holds if we assess JT's career and point out the debt he owes (and pays) to

Michael Jackson, and his response to that is: "Hunh? The fuck are you talking about? I'm not

influenced by Michael Jackson." Then we can start hurling these racist thunderbolts. But as

far as I know, JT's acknowledges this debt he owes (and pays) to MJ:

http://www.mtv.com/news/1...e-baddest/

Ironically, the only person misappropriating anything here is you! If you simply state: "I don't

like Justin Timberlake because he's too influenced by Michael Jackson," then I would cut you

some slack. But this racist/colonial argument you're presenting is ridiculous.

Truth hurts don't it.....Do you think minorities can have the same thing happen? Can I just stroll into certain places and try to convince folks around me that I'm white all of a sudden? Nope. But, that's the same situation here. Timberlake has no qualms about ripping off other people. I know it must pain you to imagine that a white person would do something like that but it's true in this case. Why do some whites get so heated when discussions of race and history come up?

Um, no, as a Black man, your "truth' doesn't hurt, actually. Your argument is one of those that

once it has been deemed silly, falls back on playing a race card so as to gain favor. The fact

of the matter is that I have given you proof that Justin Timberlake acknowledges the force

that was Michael Jackson and gave Michael Jackson props for being an influence for his recording

career, contrary to your claims that he thinks he's Michael Jackson and stealing from Black

American art forms. Like I said, I am the first guy to call bullshit on Led Zeppelin's career and

the mystical and mighty legend attached to their legacy simply because they ripped off tons of

Black artists who died impecunious and without note. The fact of the matter is that your argument

does not hold: Justin Timberlake is appropriating Black American art forms because those are

the popular art forms that he grew up with, and he gives credit to those Black Americans who

have influenced him. What belies your inverted racism is the claim that a white boy should not

be making any attempts to aspire for Michael Jackson's territory; that if one is to make this move-

ment, he/she should be black. That's fucking racist, dude. And prove your claims: prove that

Justin Timberlake is inauthentic in his attempts to do Black American music. I'll wait....

And I am highly amused that you think I'm white - this reveals much about your character, my

friend, or, maybe more about the quality of your thought processes.

what's so sad about all of this

an entire culture of music has been obliterated, exploited, and tapped out but yet, thru the guise of pop distinction and commercial success, it will never be discussed publically in the manner it should in today's climate

sampling has done so much damage over the years

the luminaries of the past who made a great deal of the memorable music that has been sampled unmercifully...now the well is run dry and there are no solutions, no answers to correct it....

UNLESS the industry admits there's a problem, which it shows no signs of doing

there isn't anything Timberlake or any contemporary artists of the current day who have come close to creating anything like Michael Jackson did with Off The Wall...not even close

and I'll take that to the bank

[Edited 5/21/14 4:37am]

SeventeenDayze said:

exactly...McDonald and Teena were both authentic and did not co-opt, they made solid contribution to the musical arts...and neither was trying to be other than what they already was.....That makes a big difference for sure. Mcdonald nor Teena tried to pass off as something that they weren't. What makes JT bogus is that you can see from a mile away that he lacks authenticity in his style, singing, etc.

So only artists you dislike are culture vultures to you.. Teena and Mcdonald were influenced by black music as much as JT.

You may not like his music but the fact is he grew up on the type of music he makes and it's part of who he is.

and what do you say about artists like Ne-Yo and Usher doing euro dance songs?

THOSE are better examples of artists not being themselves.

[Edited 5/21/14 6:15am]

SeventeenDayze said:

duccichucka said:

As for Timberlake avoiding the blowback from Nipplegate, who gives a fuck? He tried

to dodge a career hit; that doesn't have anything to do with the color of his skin.

Oh, BUT INDEED IT DOES. we can't talk about black, white, issues of race, cultural appropriation, inspiration, etc. and disentangle it from the privilege bestowed by whiteness (in America). I gives a fuck for one, (and not because janet was my once future baby mama and JT helped catalyze her stage left exit...) because this to me why such conversations never move forward. consequence, differential treatment, etc. are glossed over and not given the platform they deserve, the disparity is ok, and not saying ish about it, and your role in it, is ok if you're "dodging a career hit"?!?!?

IF the talent JT has is so "transcendent" then fess up in the moment and ride it out. White America will BE white America, meaning the differential treatment would have (and WILL) persist, so any "hit" would have been short term if at all! But he hid in his privilege and simultaneously exposed his BitchAssNess. He can dance, sing a little, but still....bitchassness!

[Edited 5/21/14 7:14am]

Black producers work with Justin Timberlake. Black MC's work with Justin Timberlake. Black audiences buy Justin Timberlake's albums and songs.

JT's had at least the same level of support among black audiences as Michael McDonald or Teena Marie, even if he hasn't earned the same type of "respect" (though kids may see him like an MM or TM 20 years from now).

Where does this fit within the "appropriation" argument? We know it's a phenomenon as old as America itself, but what about when black audiences also like and support the white artist, or when black artists make money collaborating with that artist?

(I'm really asking . . . not being facetious or rhetorical . . .)

datdude said:

SeventeenDayze said:

Oh, BUT INDEED IT DOES. we can't talk about black, white, issues of race, cultural appropriation, inspiration, etc. and disentangle it from the privilege bestowed by whiteness (in America). I gives a fuck for one, (and not because janet was my once future baby mama and JT helped catalyze her stage left exit...) because this to me why such conversations never move forward. consequence, differential treatment, etc. are glossed over and not given the platform they deserve, the disparity is ok, and not saying ish about it, and your role in it, is ok if you're "dodging a career hit"?!?!?

IF the talent JT has is so "transcendent" then fess up in the moment and ride it out. White America will BE white America, meaning the differential treatment would have (and WILL) persist, so any "hit" would have been short term if at all! But he hid in his privilege and simultaneously exposed his BitchAssNess. He can dance, sing a little, but still....bitchassness!

[Edited 5/21/14 7:14am]

Totally agree about the bitchassness, LOL. That's hilarious. I agree with you, it's like he's trying to walk a tight rope. Ripping off other artists while trying to sound "unique". I think some people on this thread are exaggerating their outrage just for the sake of defending JT for some reason. If he's so special, why are they getting upset with me? Again, the truth hurts. He appropriates black music then retreats back into his white world. This is nothing new. Some of you guys need to Google Pat Boone for crying out loud...

namepeace said:

Black producers work with Justin Timberlake. Black MC's work with Justin Timberlake. Black audiences buy Justin Timberlake's albums and songs.

JT's had at least the same level of support among black audiences as Michael McDonald or Teena Marie, even if he hasn't earned the same type of "respect" (though kids may see him like an MM or TM 20 years from now).

Where does this fit within the "appropriation" argument? We know it's a phenomenon as old as America itself, but what about when black audiences also like and support the white artist, or when black artists make money collaborating with that artist?

(I'm really asking . . . not being facetious or rhetorical . . .)

Why are you under the impression that JT is popular with black artists? Just because he was on the BET awards? We all know that those type of black awards shows are usually expected to have a few whites on the show so that it's not so "threatening".

SeventeenDayze said:

namepeace said:

Black producers work with Justin Timberlake. Black MC's work with Justin Timberlake. Black audiences buy Justin Timberlake's albums and songs.

JT's had at least the same level of support among black audiences as Michael McDonald or Teena Marie, even if he hasn't earned the same type of "respect" (though kids may see him like an MM or TM 20 years from now).

Where does this fit within the "appropriation" argument? We know it's a phenomenon as old as America itself, but what about when black audiences also like and support the white artist, or when black artists make money collaborating with that artist?

(I'm really asking . . . not being facetious or rhetorical . . .)

Why are you under the impression that JT is popular with black artists? Just because he was on the BET awards? We all know that those type of black awards shows are usually expected to have a few whites on the show so that it's not so "threatening".

JT tops the R&B charts. JT's songs are on black radio. That doesn't happen if black audiences are not supporting him.

So . . . are you denying JT is supported by black audiences?

namepeace said:

SeventeenDayze said:

Why are you under the impression that JT is popular with black artists? Just because he was on the BET awards? We all know that those type of black awards shows are usually expected to have a few whites on the show so that it's not so "threatening".

JT tops the R&B charts. JT's songs are on black radio. That doesn't happen if black audiences are not supporting him.

So . . . are you denying JT is supported by black audiences?

I'm not sure if you have read all of the comments on this thread but I think I have already answered those questions a few times. We all know how shady the music business is. If you want heavy rotation on the radio, you pay for it. It's called "payola" and that certainly plays a role in this as well.

[Edited 5/21/14 10:04am]

SeventeenDayze said:

namepeace said:

Black producers work with Justin Timberlake. Black MC's work with Justin Timberlake. Black audiences buy Justin Timberlake's albums and songs.

JT's had at least the same level of support among black audiences as Michael McDonald or Teena Marie, even if he hasn't earned the same type of "respect" (though kids may see him like an MM or TM 20 years from now).

Where does this fit within the "appropriation" argument? We know it's a phenomenon as old as America itself, but what about when black audiences also like and support the white artist, or when black artists make money collaborating with that artist?

(I'm really asking . . . not being facetious or rhetorical . . .)

Why are you under the impression that JT is popular with black artists? Just because he was on the BET awards? We all know that those type of black awards shows are usually expected to have a few whites on the show so that it's not so "threatening".

So the tour and collabos with Jay z never happened?

collabos with Snoop never happened?

collabos with Beyonce never happened?

collabos with Pharrell never happened?

and this never happened neither?

[Edited 5/21/14 10:48am]

SeventeenDayze said:

namepeace said:

JT tops the R&B charts. JT's songs are on black radio. That doesn't happen if black audiences are not supporting him.

So . . . are you denying JT is supported by black audiences?

I'm not sure if you have read all of the comments on this thread but I think I have already answered those questions a few times. We all know how shady the music business is. If you want heavy rotation on the radio, you pay for it. It's called "payola" and that certainly plays a role in this as well.

[Edited 5/21/14 10:04am]

You could use the payola excuse to account for virtually any artist's success, so that doesn't address the question. I don't think anyone can reasonably deny that JT enjoys success among black audiences. They buy his songs. They buy his albums. They go to his concerts.

In fact, it's likely the affirmation from black audiences that accounts for a lot of his mainstream success, although in truth he'a an entertainer moreso than a singer.

So how do you factor in the support of black audiences when discussing the "appropriation" issue about any given white artist?

TrueFunkSoldier2 said:

So the tour and collabos with Jay z never happened?

collabos with Snoop never happened?

collabos with Beyonce never happened?

collabos with Pharrell never happened?

That's where I was going. Most black artists, like any other artist, won't collaborate with someone who won't help them sell to their own audiences. JT sells with black audiences. They're not lining up to do a collabo with Jason Aldean.

Which is why I asked, If black audiences are supporting a white artist -- and I felt the Super Bowl fiasco would hurt JT ong term, but it didn't -- how does that affect the argument that a white artist is coopting black music to sell to white audiences?

(Not directing that at you specifically, but at anyone in this thread.(

namepeace said:

TrueFunkSoldier2 said:

So the tour and collabos with Jay z never happened?

collabos with Snoop never happened?

collabos with Beyonce never happened?

collabos with Pharrell never happened?

That's where I was going. Most black artists, like any other artist, won't collaborate with someone who won't help them sell to their own audiences. JT sells with black audiences. They're not lining up to do a collabo with Jason Aldean.

Which is why I asked, If black audiences are supporting a white artist -- and I felt the Super Bowl fiasco would hurt JT ong term, but it didn't -- how does that affect the argument that a white artist is coopting black music to sell to white audiences?

(Not directing that at you specifically, but at anyone in this thread.(

So is Pharrell paying the artist for them to create music or is HE getting paid for HIS sound? That's the whole point. It seems like some of you think that if a person is standing next to another artist that fundamentally changes the racial dynamic of the music industry! I'm also backing up what I am saying with historical facts but it seems to be glossed over a lot. Denial is the most powerful weapon to keep discussions of race to a minimum. Like I said, look up Pat Boone and "payola" and see it from that perspective.

[Edited 5/21/14 12:51pm]

Pre-Pharrell:

>

>

CynicKill said:

Pre-Pharrell:

>

>

Thanks for posting these

CynicKill said:

Pre-Pharrell:

>

>

Can you find a picture of JT at any sort of rally, forum on black issues, etc? All this proves is that he's been co-opting black style/music for a long time. I used Pharrell as an example and you come back with photos of him "before" Pharrell......why is it so hard to accept the fact that white artists have historically co-opted black music to advance their own career? Elvis did it too....

My point was that he was co-opting before Pharrell (badly), then Pharrell got his hands on him, lent him some swag and it's been uphill ever since.

SeventeenDayze said:

namepeace said:

That's where I was going. Most black artists, like any other artist, won't collaborate with someone who won't help them sell to their own audiences. JT sells with black audiences. They're not lining up to do a collabo with Jason Aldean.

Which is why I asked, If black audiences are supporting a white artist -- and I felt the Super Bowl fiasco would hurt JT ong term, but it didn't -- how does that affect the argument that a white artist is coopting black music to sell to white audiences?

(Not directing that at you specifically, but at anyone in this thread.(

So is Pharrell paying the artist for them to create music or is HE getting paid for HIS sound? That's the whole point. It seems like some of you think that if a person is standing next to another artist that fundamentally changes the racial dynamic of the music industry! I'm also backing up what I am saying with historical facts but it seems to be glossed over a lot. Denial is the most powerful weapon to keep discussions of race to a minimum. Like I said, look up Pat Boone and "payola" and see it from that perspective.

[Edited 5/21/14 12:51pm]

all artists i mentioned payed Justin for him to collaborate on some of their songs including Pharrell since JT was featured on P's album.

[Edited 5/21/14 14:45pm]

Don't expect Justin Timberlake to have opinions. He's too big a star for that. Remember Michael Jordan? He was only the biggest athlete possibly ever in a black dominated sport, yet I fail to remember him once even say the word black in his entire career or after. And I don't remember Justin ever being asked about co-opting or appropriation in any interview. That's because the questions were fielded before he even sat down. When Chris Brown blew up on Good Morning America it was supposedly because Robin Roberts went off script. Of course they denied denied denied, as if a fluff factory like GMA has any journalistic integrity to NOT have such a policy! So yeah, Justin will continue to be safe in racial matters. He's a co-opter, not political.

CynicKill said:

Don't expect Justin Timberlake to have opinions. He's too big a star for that. Remember Michael Jordan? He was only the biggest athlete possibly ever in a black dominated sport, yet I fail to remember him once even say the word black in his entire career or after. And I don't remember Justin ever being asked about co-opting or appropriation in any interview. That's because the questions were fielded before he even sat down. When Chris Brown blew up on Good Morning America it was supposedly because Robin Roberts went off script. Of course they denied denied denied, as if a fluff factory like GMA has any journalistic integrity to NOT have such a policy! So yeah, Justin will continue to be safe in racial matters. He's a co-opter, not political.

That's true about being safe by staying away from those issues. I think sometimes it could make or break a person's career if they get to close to controversial matters. I think that's what makes Justin so inflammatory. It's as if he has all the benefits of a constructed "blackness" just because he "grew up in the South" (as if there aren't blacks in any other part of the country). He has his cake and eats it too when it comes to these kind of things....

CynicKill said:

Remember Michael Jordan? He was only the biggest athlete possibly ever in a black dominated sport, yet I fail to remember him once even say the word black in his entire career or after.

Yup, and for a lot of ppl in the Black community, Jordan never recovered and will never be more than a "dumb jock". He's paid up the wazoo sure, and the best ever sure, but he exposed himself as an apolitical, spineless opportunist. It was the "Spike Lee" incident that did it. While Jordan's endorsement career was on the ascent, he was advised to distance himself from that "little angry black directing troublemaker" (quotations mine). and like a B-I, he did! Its not even about being "political" as it is about being a MAN. about HAVING a pair! That's why this Donald Sterling case is very revelatory about today's NBA and the larger culture in general. Jordan revealed how "deep" his understanding of racial issues was recently (about as deep as a cup of soup) when he said that he was racist because of his anger at what he'd seen white people do in his upbringing as a child. I was like, Ummmm Noooooo, that makes you HUMAN, that makes you want to protect and defend your own. Of course the headlines simply ran with the "Jordan was a racist" headline.....Anyway. SIGH!

CynicKill said:

Pre-Pharrell:

>

>

Those pictures are from the N SYNC days in which he probably didn't have much creative control over anything. He said himself he cringes at pics from that era

His looks improved with time and Pharrell had nothing to do with it.

[Edited 5/21/14 20:27pm]