GoldDolphin said:

Timmy84 said:

Right. This don't take away my love of James Brown the entertainer but it further shows how much of an egocentric person he was. I know the times then made things hard but not so hard that you step over your own HOMEBOYS to get top billing. Especially the man who put him in the group just so he can stay out of trouble. This is a reason I posted this topic. I honestly do wanna discuss why the Flames were so obscured from history books. I don't think it was something that James naively left off. You ask any music lover who knows James Brown, they may tell you he was a solo artist when "Please, Please, Please" was released. And we know now that that's false.

Exactly! You're right he was very egocentric and that sadly reflected many things he did and I def think it was on purpose that he changed the story about the Famous Flames, which is a shame. Yes, it's very interesting that nobody mentions them but I think somehow that they want to give more cred to James Brown because of his significance in popular music you know and that's why they want to erase other people who helped him, which isnt strange - because he wanted to create this type of cult around him (all the titles godfather of soul and so on, which he of course deserves but it's sad he wasnt man enough to give the right respect to people who helped him) and he succeeded.

Yeah he's a pioneer. But his story has always been confusing. I wanna help change that process. Since people are increasingly relying on Wikipedia, I'm doing just that.

Timmy84 said:

Yo LBC, there was something else I wanted to ask... okay when Bobby Byrd started the group, you know how many were in the actual group?

I know now about Sylvester Keels, Derek Oglesby, Fred Pulliam and Roy Scott. But there was other names: Nafloyd Scott and Johnny Terry.

I wanted to know if they ever called themselves "The Five Royals" as it said in their article on Cleveland Plain Dealer before their induction and if not, did they simply go from the Gospel Starlighters to the Avons to the Flames?

And when did James Brown finally join? Like I always guessed it was '55. And I know he was a drummer when he started out because I posted the picture.

It just seemed it didn't take James long to get the lead vocal spot. I read they had a lead singer but he was killed or something and James ended up taking his spot but I'm not sure about it, I gotta read up on it.

There's a lot of history that is often not discussed.

When Bobby started the group, they were called the GOSPEL STARLIGHTERS and I'm not sure about the member but I do know his sister was there in the beggining.

Apparently Terry came after James came to the group, which is probably why Terry came back into the fold and the others didn't.

The booklet I have doesn't have anything about The Five Royals as being their name. They do have the Avons, and also other names, The Trenells, the Rhythm Masters and other alias to get booked for shows at local high schools and R&B clubs. The "5" Royales were big at that time, so who knows what they were doing. This mught be a Ripples & Waves + Michael thing goin on.

Not sure when he joined, the booklet says he moved in with Byrds family in 1952. This is from the booklet:

"in 1952 he linked up with the local Byrd family. Rehabilitating himself with a personal affair and gospel duet liaison with sister Sarah Byrd he also jpined brother Bobby Byrd's group The Gospel Starlighters, at which point this particular historical musical journey was founded."

I'm thinking he came in earlier than 55, cause by 55 they had recorded a demo for "Please" and were now clients of Clint Brantley, Little Richard's angent.

The way Byrd describes some of those shows in the booklet, I wanna say earlier than 55. The booklet basically says Byrd, Keels and James would share vocals untill James eventually Byrd figured out James would be best up front.

Timmy84 said:

GoldDolphin said:

Exactly! You're right he was very egocentric and that sadly reflected many things he did and I def think it was on purpose that he changed the story about the Famous Flames, which is a shame. Yes, it's very interesting that nobody mentions them but I think somehow that they want to give more cred to James Brown because of his significance in popular music you know and that's why they want to erase other people who helped him, which isnt strange - because he wanted to create this type of cult around him (all the titles godfather of soul and so on, which he of course deserves but it's sad he wasnt man enough to give the right respect to people who helped him) and he succeeded.

Yeah he's a pioneer. But his story has always been confusing. I wanna help change that process. Since people are increasingly relying on Wikipedia, I'm doing just that.

I agree, it has been confusing but it's also a higly poliitcal because he's had such a huge impact on the black community,- people know he was a douchebag yet they want to preserve a certain image. That's kinda how I see it. And I think that's great !!

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

Yo LBC, there was something else I wanted to ask... okay when Bobby Byrd started the group, you know how many were in the actual group?

I know now about Sylvester Keels, Derek Oglesby, Fred Pulliam and Roy Scott. But there was other names: Nafloyd Scott and Johnny Terry.

I wanted to know if they ever called themselves "The Five Royals" as it said in their article on Cleveland Plain Dealer before their induction and if not, did they simply go from the Gospel Starlighters to the Avons to the Flames?

And when did James Brown finally join? Like I always guessed it was '55. And I know he was a drummer when he started out because I posted the picture.

It just seemed it didn't take James long to get the lead vocal spot. I read they had a lead singer but he was killed or something and James ended up taking his spot but I'm not sure about it, I gotta read up on it.

There's a lot of history that is often not discussed.

When Bobby started the group, they were called the GOSPEL STARLIGHTERS and I'm not sure about the member but I do know his sister was there in the beggining.

Apparently Terry came after James came to the group, which is probably why Terry came back into the fold and the others didn't.

The booklet I have doesn't have anything about The Five Royals as being their name. They do have the Avons, and also other names, The Trenells, the Rhythm Masters and other alias to get booked for shows at local high schools and R&B clubs. The "5" Royales were big at that time, so who knows what they were doing. This mught be a Ripples & Waves + Michael thing goin on.

Not sure when he joined, the booklet says he moved in with Byrds family in 1952. This is from the booklet:

"in 1952 he linked up with the local Byrd family. Rehabilitating himself with a personal affair and gospel duet liaison with sister Sarah Byrd he also jpined brother Bobby Byrd's group The Gospel Starlighters, at which point this particular historical musical journey was founded."

I'm thinking he came in earlier than 55, cause by 55 they had recorded a demo for "Please" and were now clients of Clint Brantley, Little Richard's angent.

The way Byrd describes some of those shows in the booklet, I wanna say earlier than 55. The booklet basically says Byrd, Keels and James would share vocals untill James eventually Byrd figured out James would be best up front.

Hmm, interesting... yeah I don't think they were "The Five Royals". I read somewhere James had a vocal group while growing up in Augusta in his teens. Trenells and Rhythm Masters, lol so Sylvester Keels was a third lead singer? Interesting! Byrd does describe it like James joined earlier than '55 but I heard he told a lot of confusing stories (as did Brown!).

The Flames basically stopped performing on record with JB in 1963 (though they do back him on 64's Maybe The Last Time.) The did back him on stage untill late 1967 though only 2 were left, the two Bobby's.

I wonder if he kept them on the pressing so they could still get some album royalties?

LittleBLUECorvette said:

I wonder if he kept them on the pressing so they could still get some album royalties?

Who knows if they were paid money by King at all? Especially since Syd Nathan was said to be cheap. In those days, some record companies paid their acts in things like cars, fur coats, drugs, booze, etc. if they were paid at all. Same for touring, promoters & managers often would either cheat the acts or skip out on paying them. That's why James would not perform unless he got paid up front.

If James Brown had to knock a nigguh out in order to become the

godfather of soul and influence everyone from Fela Kuti to Michael

Jackson to Prince, then nigguhs must be knocked out.

Step aside for who was the hardest working man in show bidniss.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

The Flames basically stopped performing on record with JB in 1963 (though they do back him on 64's Maybe The Last Time.) The did back him on stage untill late 1967 though only 2 were left, the two Bobby's.

I wonder if he kept them on the pressing so they could still get some album royalties?

It's a possibility: King wasn't exactly what you call real profitable. James provided the biggest money for them.

MickyDolenz said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

I wonder if he kept them on the pressing so they could still get some album royalties?

Who knows if they were paid money by King at all? Especially since Syd Nathan was said to be cheap. In those days, some record companies paid their acts in things like cars, fur coats, drugs, booze, etc. if they were paid at all. Same for touring, promoters & managers often would either cheat the acts or skip out on paying them. That's why James would not perform unless he got paid up front.

I think that period helped to further his ruthlessness. He also didn't trust the government though he would rely on them to help with their educational problems (he was always key on that).

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

The Flames basically stopped performing on record with JB in 1963 (though they do back him on 64's Maybe The Last Time.) The did back him on stage untill late 1967 though only 2 were left, the two Bobby's.

I wonder if he kept them on the pressing so they could still get some album royalties?

It's a possibility: King wasn't exactly what you call real profitable. James provided the biggest money for them.

Famous Flames almost went to Chess. Wonder how that would have turned out ...

Timmy84 said:

I think that period helped to further his ruthlessness. He also didn't trust the government though he would rely on them to help with their educational problems (he was always key on that).

James didn't trust banks either. Eddie Murphy was on a talk show once and he said James told him (as advice) not to put money in the bank, but bury it in the yard.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

It's a possibility: King wasn't exactly what you call real profitable. James provided the biggest money for them.

Famous Flames almost went to Chess. Wonder how that would have turned out ...

I wonder about that too. Also without Ben Bart. That would've changed the course of history as James was signed as just a Famous Flames member...

After being on the Federal label since the beginning of 1956, James (doesn't say the Flames) signed a new 5 year contract with King on July 1st, 1960. HE had proved him self able to stomp with the big dogs on King like Little Willie John, Hank Ballard and the Midnighters and Bill Doggett.

The James Brown Show headlined the Apollo for the first time in December 1960. He released his first instrumentl record as JAMES BROWN presents his BAND in January 1960. In March of 61, he would make his stage debut as an organist and bandleader as the revue hit Texas and California.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

After being on the Federal label since the beginning of 1956, James (doesn't say the Flames) signed a new 5 year contract with King on July 1st, 1960. HE had proved him self able to stomp with the big dogs on King like Little Willie John, Hank Ballard and the Midnighters and Bill Doggett.

The James Brown Show headlined the Apollo for the first time in December 1960. He released his first instrumentl record as JAMES BROWN presents his BAND in January 1960. In March of 61, he would make his stage debut as an organist and bandleader as the revue hit Texas and California.

I'm guessing this is when he just transcended into HIS show just featuring them... hmm lol I have to give it up to James, he was smart at marketing but maybe Ben Bart helped him along the way. As he (and Bobby Byrd) said "I need help, I can't do it alone".

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

After being on the Federal label since the beginning of 1956, James (doesn't say the Flames) signed a new 5 year contract with King on July 1st, 1960. HE had proved him self able to stomp with the big dogs on King like Little Willie John, Hank Ballard and the Midnighters and Bill Doggett.

The James Brown Show headlined the Apollo for the first time in December 1960. He released his first instrumentl record as JAMES BROWN presents his BAND in January 1960. In March of 61, he would make his stage debut as an organist and bandleader as the revue hit Texas and California.

I'm guessing this is when he just transcended into HIS show just featuring them... hmm lol I have to give it up to James, he was smart at marketing but maybe Ben Bart helped him along the way. As he (and Bobby Byrd) said "I need help, I can't do it alone".

Or remembers that Soul Train Doc when he kept asking Don "who you wit in this."

Basically by 1960-61, I think he was the hottest act in the soul department not named Ray Charles, Jackie Wilson, Sam Cooke, Willie John or Hank Ballard. All those cats had already crossed over to the pop market by that time. Most of JB and the Flames singles were hovering around the 40-50 spot but alway top 5 on the black charts.

Besides Ray, he might have been the only cat back then to have his own Revue or Show? Do you know Timmy??

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

I'm guessing this is when he just transcended into HIS show just featuring them... hmm lol I have to give it up to James, he was smart at marketing but maybe Ben Bart helped him along the way. As he (and Bobby Byrd) said "I need help, I can't do it alone".

Or remembers that Soul Train Doc when he kept asking Don "who you wit in this."

Basically by 1960-61, I think he was the hottest act in the soul department not named Ray Charles, Jackie Wilson, Sam Cooke, Willie John or Hank Ballard. All those cats had already crossed over to the pop market by that time. Most of JB and the Flames singles were hovering around the 40-50 spot but alway top 5 on the black charts.

Besides Ray, he might have been the only cat back then to have his own Revue or Show? Do you know Timmy??

Didn't Ike and Tina Turner start their revue/show around the same time James and Ray did? I'm not sure of the timeline but it seems like shortly after "A Fool in Love" or after "It's Gonna Work Out Fine", they started their own revue too. All three acts had revues before everyone else jumped on the bandwagon.

It's interesting to note that James never got over that hump on the pop charts in the early years until after the Apollo though he did have pop audiences (he said King Records didn't wanna promote his music outside the R&B market probably because Little Willie John and Hank Ballard was already doing that and they felt James was too "gutter" for pop then).

[Edited 7/12/12 22:28pm]

Timmy84 said:

I don't know... after reading so much now on the history of James Brown and the Famous Flames, the fact that James Brown seemed to muscle his way into being the leader (though Bobby Byrd, RIP, was the original lead singer and its founder) and the fact that King Records itself didn't really seem to look at the other guys favorably more than they did Brown - but that was probably because of Brown too, it just speaks volumes on how James got inducted in the first class of inductees in the first place. Guys don't take this as a James Brown diss because of course he did his work.

Initially I was like everyone else thinking that James founded the group and I also was under the impression like others that the Famous Flames was his backing band (they weren't, but they were the group James joined) and now their Rock & Roll Hall of Fame induction this year seems to confirm a lot of things I had suspected of James even though I knew of his ego tripping a lot: that basically James bullied his way to being a front man and despite Bobby's words on how he went autopilot for James, he actually did leave him - angrily - over money issues THREE TIMES (!), I think Bobby had to have had harbored some bitterness over how James treated him, including the other members but both Bobby and Bobby Bennett both say that they still respected James (though Bennett made it clear that James "was just one of the Famous Flames").

I don't know... James had a lot of emotional scars and he wanted to be the boss, the alpha male, it's just crazy that most of us were ignoring that band - with the exception of a few (like LBC for instance) but if James was the "hardest-working man in show business" as they say, so was the Famous Flames that stayed with him and Bobby Byrd more than anything because he co-wrote a lot of songs with Brown (most of which were uncredited), he formed production companies to HELP James sell his records, he formed People Records or at least co-formed it, he got Bootsy Collins and practically formed the JB's.

Then when HE left (along with a few other integral band members), James' career seemed to slowly take a nosedive. I don't know, is it just me that notices now HOW much of a bully he was? I mean I knew he was on his ego trip but I didn't know it was to this extent. And also the issue with not paying the Famous Flames or the JB's or any of the singers who sung on hit recordings James is credited with writing (and even that's started to be questioned), causing them to abruptly walk out on him especially since THEY were the ones who had to pay James money for fucking up.

Your thoughts?

So basically, James Brown had a music career in the 1980's only because of the helping hands of Afrika Bambaataa, Sylvester Stallone, & Full Force.

That is all.

TonyVanDam said:

Timmy84 said:

I don't know... after reading so much now on the history of James Brown and the Famous Flames, the fact that James Brown seemed to muscle his way into being the leader (though Bobby Byrd, RIP, was the original lead singer and its founder) and the fact that King Records itself didn't really seem to look at the other guys favorably more than they did Brown - but that was probably because of Brown too, it just speaks volumes on how James got inducted in the first class of inductees in the first place. Guys don't take this as a James Brown diss because of course he did his work.

Initially I was like everyone else thinking that James founded the group and I also was under the impression like others that the Famous Flames was his backing band (they weren't, but they were the group James joined) and now their Rock & Roll Hall of Fame induction this year seems to confirm a lot of things I had suspected of James even though I knew of his ego tripping a lot: that basically James bullied his way to being a front man and despite Bobby's words on how he went autopilot for James, he actually did leave him - angrily - over money issues THREE TIMES (!), I think Bobby had to have had harbored some bitterness over how James treated him, including the other members but both Bobby and Bobby Bennett both say that they still respected James (though Bennett made it clear that James "was just one of the Famous Flames").

I don't know... James had a lot of emotional scars and he wanted to be the boss, the alpha male, it's just crazy that most of us were ignoring that band - with the exception of a few (like LBC for instance) but if James was the "hardest-working man in show business" as they say, so was the Famous Flames that stayed with him and Bobby Byrd more than anything because he co-wrote a lot of songs with Brown (most of which were uncredited), he formed production companies to HELP James sell his records, he formed People Records or at least co-formed it, he got Bootsy Collins and practically formed the JB's.

Then when HE left (along with a few other integral band members), James' career seemed to slowly take a nosedive. I don't know, is it just me that notices now HOW much of a bully he was? I mean I knew he was on his ego trip but I didn't know it was to this extent. And also the issue with not paying the Famous Flames or the JB's or any of the singers who sung on hit recordings James is credited with writing (and even that's started to be questioned), causing them to abruptly walk out on him especially since THEY were the ones who had to pay James money for fucking up.

Your thoughts?

So basically, James Brown had a music career in the 1980's only because of the helping hands of Afrika Bambaataa, Sylvester Stallone, & Full Force.

That is all.

Yeah you can say it like that. I read up on that period, apparently James couldn't even sell his name anymore on records because he had oversaturated the market by 1974. This and the decline in his productions (with few singles that actually charted decently) led to him being out of favor along with the rise of other genres. Record labels between 1980 and 1985 wouldn't touch him. A 1983 session with Sly & Robbie just before he signed with Island Records went horrible. I think he only agreed to do a joint with Afrika because he dig his music. The sampling didn't happen until shortly afterwards (1985 onwards). When James got on "Rocky IV", it definitely helped his profile again and the release of "Living in America" furthered it. His Full Force records were actually the first time I ever heard of a James Brown.

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Or remembers that Soul Train Doc when he kept asking Don "who you wit in this."

Basically by 1960-61, I think he was the hottest act in the soul department not named Ray Charles, Jackie Wilson, Sam Cooke, Willie John or Hank Ballard. All those cats had already crossed over to the pop market by that time. Most of JB and the Flames singles were hovering around the 40-50 spot but alway top 5 on the black charts.

Besides Ray, he might have been the only cat back then to have his own Revue or Show? Do you know Timmy??

Didn't Ike and Tina Turner start their revue/show around the same time James and Ray did? I'm not sure of the timeline but it seems like shortly after "A Fool in Love" or after "It's Gonna Work Out Fine", they started their own revue too. All three acts had revues before everyone else jumped on the bandwagon.

It's interesting to note that James never got over that hump on the pop charts in the early years until after the Apollo though he did have pop audiences (he said King Records didn't wanna promote his music outside the R&B market probably because Little Willie John and Hank Ballard was already doing that and they felt James was too "gutter" for pop then).

[Edited 7/12/12 22:28pm]

I know JB's Revue or Show began at the beginning of 1959 or late 58 when he finally got his first band together. So it would be The James Brown Show (or Revue) featurung the Famous Flames, The JC Davis Orchestra and Nat Kendrick & The Swans. That's how he marketed himself.

It seem the Ike & Tina Turner Revue happened around 1960-61.

Ray was probably way before both.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

Didn't Ike and Tina Turner start their revue/show around the same time James and Ray did? I'm not sure of the timeline but it seems like shortly after "A Fool in Love" or after "It's Gonna Work Out Fine", they started their own revue too. All three acts had revues before everyone else jumped on the bandwagon.

It's interesting to note that James never got over that hump on the pop charts in the early years until after the Apollo though he did have pop audiences (he said King Records didn't wanna promote his music outside the R&B market probably because Little Willie John and Hank Ballard was already doing that and they felt James was too "gutter" for pop then).

[Edited 7/12/12 22:28pm]

I know JB's Revue or Show began at the beginning of 1959 or late 58 when he finally got his first band together. So it would be The James Brown Show (or Revue) featurung the Famous Flames, The JC Davis Orchestra and Nat Kendrick & The Swans. That's how he marketed himself.

It seem the Ike & Tina Turner Revue happened around 1960-61.

Ray was probably way before both.

Yeah Ray's Revue started in '56 or '57. I think James was actually influenced by how Ray Charles was doing his shows. I heard he would stand in the wings and see how Ray would conduct the band and then he saw how he handled things as a revue, he would let the band perform, then the Raelettes and whomever he wanted to highlight before coming out and doing his set. James based off his "James Brown Show" from Ray Charles' show. Ike Turner was looking at the both of them and took bits and chunks from them but instead of being the headliner, he of course got Tina to do it. The I&TT Revue was actually what you would see in a Ray Charles and James Brown Show times a hundred. I'm sure James was pissed Ike and Tina had one-upped him. That's why he eventually included female acts (starting with Bea Ford onwards) in his act but they were more singers like Ray Charles' Raelettes were. I also think James was mad Ike was able to find three gorgeous women (no matter who) to back Tina up. Also Ike was better in instruments so he got noticed from there. All three acts were always in competition with each other I heard.

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

I know JB's Revue or Show began at the beginning of 1959 or late 58 when he finally got his first band together. So it would be The James Brown Show (or Revue) featurung the Famous Flames, The JC Davis Orchestra and Nat Kendrick & The Swans. That's how he marketed himself.

It seem the Ike & Tina Turner Revue happened around 1960-61.

Ray was probably way before both.

Yeah Ray's Revue started in '56 or '57. I think James was actually influenced by how Ray Charles was doing his shows. I heard he would stand in the wings and see how Ray would conduct the band and then he saw how he handled things as a revue, he would let the band perform, then the Raelettes and whomever he wanted to highlight before coming out and doing his set. James based off his "James Brown Show" from Ray Charles' show. Ike Turner was looking at the both of them and took bits and chunks from them but instead of being the headliner, he of course got Tina to do it. The I&TT Revue was actually what you would see in a Ray Charles and James Brown Show times a hundred. I'm sure James was pissed Ike and Tina had one-upped him. That's why he eventually included female acts (starting with Bea Ford onwards) in his act but they were more singers like Ray Charles' Raelettes were. I also think James was mad Ike was able to find three gorgeous women (no matter who) to back Tina up. Also Ike was better in instruments so he got noticed from there. All three acts were always in competition with each other I heard.

Yeah, James was def into Ray Charles. His Live at the Apollo album came to because of Ray's Live album In Person.

In the booklet he always would say he wanted to be in charge of his band like Ray Charles. He always compared his act to Ray's instead of other artist or groups with no backing bands like Jackie Wilson, Sam Cook, The Plattes, ect.

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

I know JB's Revue or Show began at the beginning of 1959 or late 58 when he finally got his first band together. So it would be The James Brown Show (or Revue) featurung the Famous Flames, The JC Davis Orchestra and Nat Kendrick & The Swans. That's how he marketed himself.

It seem the Ike & Tina Turner Revue happened around 1960-61.

Ray was probably way before both.

Yeah Ray's Revue started in '56 or '57. I think James was actually influenced by how Ray Charles was doing his shows. I heard he would stand in the wings and see how Ray would conduct the band and then he saw how he handled things as a revue, he would let the band perform, then the Raelettes and whomever he wanted to highlight before coming out and doing his set. James based off his "James Brown Show" from Ray Charles' show. Ike Turner was looking at the both of them and took bits and chunks from them but instead of being the headliner, he of course got Tina to do it. The I&TT Revue was actually what you would see in a Ray Charles and James Brown Show times a hundred. I'm sure James was pissed Ike and Tina had one-upped him. That's why he eventually included female acts (starting with Bea Ford onwards) in his act but they were more singers like Ray Charles' Raelettes were. I also think James was mad Ike was able to find three gorgeous women (no matter who) to back Tina up. Also Ike was better in instruments so he got noticed from there. All three acts were always in competition with each other I heard.

JB got with Bea after Ike had met Tina but before Ike put out his Revue. Once he started putting out his review, he started getting other acts like Sugar Pie DeSanto and a poster that promotes his version of the Iketts or Raelets called THE BROWNIES It describes them as 6 BEautiful Dancing Girls. Not sure if they were background singers or just dancers.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah Ray's Revue started in '56 or '57. I think James was actually influenced by how Ray Charles was doing his shows. I heard he would stand in the wings and see how Ray would conduct the band and then he saw how he handled things as a revue, he would let the band perform, then the Raelettes and whomever he wanted to highlight before coming out and doing his set. James based off his "James Brown Show" from Ray Charles' show. Ike Turner was looking at the both of them and took bits and chunks from them but instead of being the headliner, he of course got Tina to do it. The I&TT Revue was actually what you would see in a Ray Charles and James Brown Show times a hundred. I'm sure James was pissed Ike and Tina had one-upped him. That's why he eventually included female acts (starting with Bea Ford onwards) in his act but they were more singers like Ray Charles' Raelettes were. I also think James was mad Ike was able to find three gorgeous women (no matter who) to back Tina up. Also Ike was better in instruments so he got noticed from there. All three acts were always in competition with each other I heard.

Yeah, James was def into Ray Charles. His Live at the Apollo album came to because of Ray's Live album In Person.

In the booklet he always would say he wanted to be in charge of his band like Ray Charles. He always compared his act to Ray's instead of other artist or groups with no backing bands like Jackie Wilson, Sam Cook, The Plattes, ect.

Yeah, and he also saw how Ray Charles had found his mainstream audience by "remaining himself" and he wanted to do that (explains why he did "Prisoner of Love" because it was similar to what Ray was doing then...). I think he spent years chasing Ray Charles' shadow until he began chasing his OWN shadow. "Georgia on My Mind" was just as connected to James as it was to Ray for example though his version wasn't released. He couldn't play piano as well as Ray but he tried.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah Ray's Revue started in '56 or '57. I think James was actually influenced by how Ray Charles was doing his shows. I heard he would stand in the wings and see how Ray would conduct the band and then he saw how he handled things as a revue, he would let the band perform, then the Raelettes and whomever he wanted to highlight before coming out and doing his set. James based off his "James Brown Show" from Ray Charles' show. Ike Turner was looking at the both of them and took bits and chunks from them but instead of being the headliner, he of course got Tina to do it. The I&TT Revue was actually what you would see in a Ray Charles and James Brown Show times a hundred. I'm sure James was pissed Ike and Tina had one-upped him. That's why he eventually included female acts (starting with Bea Ford onwards) in his act but they were more singers like Ray Charles' Raelettes were. I also think James was mad Ike was able to find three gorgeous women (no matter who) to back Tina up. Also Ike was better in instruments so he got noticed from there. All three acts were always in competition with each other I heard.

JB got with Bea after Ike had met Tina but before Ike put out his Revue. Once he started putting out his review, he started getting other acts like Sugar Pie DeSanto and a poster that promotes his version of the Iketts or Raelets called THE BROWNIES It describes them as 6 BEautiful Dancing Girls. Not sure if they were background singers or just dancers.

Yeah you said 1960 right? LOL "The Brownies". That must've been 1961-1962 or something because I know during the mid-1960s there was only one female dancer. In fact he always had "one female dancer" until sometime around 1977 and he brought a female trio that was close enough to the Ikettes/Raelettes. I think this time he called them the Sweeties or something, I forget. That was when he had his band, the JB Internationals (later the Soul Generals).

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

JB got with Bea after Ike had met Tina but before Ike put out his Revue. Once he started putting out his review, he started getting other acts like Sugar Pie DeSanto and a poster that promotes his version of the Iketts or Raelets called THE BROWNIES It describes them as 6 BEautiful Dancing Girls. Not sure if they were background singers or just dancers.

Yeah you said 1960 right? LOL "The Brownies". That must've been 1961-1962 or something because I know during the mid-1960s there was only one female dancer. In fact he always had "one female dancer" until sometime around 1977 and he brought a female trio that was close enough to the Ikettes/Raelettes. I think this time he called them the Sweeties or something, I forget. That was when he had his band, the JB Internationals (later the Soul Generals).

This is from December 1961.

[Edited 7/12/12 23:14pm]

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah you said 1960 right? LOL "The Brownies". That must've been 1961-1962 or something because I know during the mid-1960s there was only one female dancer. In fact he always had "one female dancer" until sometime around 1977 and he brought a female trio that was close enough to the Ikettes/Raelettes. I think this time he called them the Sweeties or something, I forget. That was when he had his band, the JB Internationals (later the Soul Generals).

This is from December 1961.

[Edited 7/12/12 23:14pm]

Cool. Why isn't the Famous Flames on there? Not enough room?

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

This is from December 1961.

[Edited 7/12/12 23:14pm]

Cool. Why isn't the Famous Flames on there? Not enough room?

There name is there, or do you mean a photo?

Here is another a few onths later with Yvone Fair taking Sugar's spot (who took Bea Fords spot.)

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

Cool. Why isn't the Famous Flames on there? Not enough room?

There name is there, or do you mean a photo?

Here is another a few onths later with Yvone Fair taking Sugar's spot (who took Bea Fords spot.)

Yeah a photo.

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

There name is there, or do you mean a photo?

Here is another a few onths later with Yvone Fair taking Sugar's spot (who took Bea Fords spot.)

Yeah a photo.

One of the Flames, Baby Lloyd has a photo.

http://chronicle.augusta....0576.shtml

This link says he joined Gospel Starlighters in 1953.

I think this is his first press photo.

It says with his Famous Flames at the bottom but know Flames to be found.