Timmy84 said:

JoeTyler said:

thoughts?

I never thought he was a "nice" guy

more like jealous, paranoid, bossy and violent (not violent like Ike), but certainly visceral/volatile

Harlepolis used to post here about he and Marva Whitney had a real nasty fight, I forgot the actual details. And Lyn Collins once punched him in the face during their altercation. He was fucking them too. He also fucked his other female singers (from a 17-year-old Tammi Terrell all the way down to his last "wife", Tomi-Rae Hynie) even while married. He once hit Tammi in the head with an umbrella hanger. So he definitely was violent. I think his relationship with his male musicians was more mental, verbal and psychological though.

def not an angel, lol

JoeTyler said:

Timmy84 said:

Harlepolis used to post here about he and Marva Whitney had a real nasty fight, I forgot the actual details. And Lyn Collins once punched him in the face during their altercation. He was fucking them too. He also fucked his other female singers (from a 17-year-old Tammi Terrell all the way down to his last "wife", Tomi-Rae Hynie) even while married. He once hit Tammi in the head with an umbrella hanger. So he definitely was violent. I think his relationship with his male musicians was more mental, verbal and psychological though.

def not an angel, lol

Thing was James knew that and yet he still had an image to uphold of being some "upstanding citizen" which I can understand because he came from the gutter but it's sad though. Like I said, I know he ain't the only one with a big ego but his had so many layers you can't just cut it with a knife. The fact he didn't even name his bands (people still assume Maceo was a "Famous Flame" ) and snuffed the original Flames out of songwriting credits and royalties was sad. And yet he still was performing because of debts. It's like once he lost control (1988), he never fully gained it back and people who worked with him could see it but they couldn't say anything.

In the new book The One, it said that Bill Withers put a knife to James throat because on the plane flight to Africa for the Ali/Foreman fight, James was in first class while everybody else was coach. James was told by the airline that he had too much stuff in his section, which would make the plane unbalanced, and he refused to move. So Bill "asked" James to move to coach, and James did.

MickyDolenz said:

In the new book The One, it said that Bill Withers put a knife to James throat because on the plane flight to Africa for the Ali/Foreman fight, James was in first class while everybody else was coach. James was told by the airline that he had too much stuff in his section, which would make the plane unbalanced, and he refused to move. So Bill "asked" James to move to coach, and James did.

That was one way to get through to James.

As far as the Famous Flames go, that wasn't only James doing. King Records & Ben Bart also had a lot to do with pushing James to the front.

MickyDolenz said:

As far as the Famous Flames go, that wasn't only James doing. King Records & Ben Bart also had a lot to do with pushing James to the front.

Yeah I read on that. I should've included them because they definitely contributed to the confusion. Especially Ben Bart.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

As far as the Famous Flames go, that wasn't only James doing. King Records & Ben Bart also had a lot to do with pushing James to the front.

Yeah I read on that. I should've included them because they definitely contributed to the confusion. Especially Ben Bart.

The Flames on the TAMI Show are not the originals, who were gone by then, and King/Syd Nathan didn't put much emphasis on the them, only James.

MickyDolenz said:

Timmy84 said:

Yeah I read on that. I should've included them because they definitely contributed to the confusion. Especially Ben Bart.

The Flames on the TAMI Show are not the originals, who were gone by then, and King/Syd Nathan didn't put much emphasis on the them, only James.

Bobby Byrd was. And that's always the danger with some groups. Syd treated the Midnighters the same way, only having Hank Ballard basically overshadow the rest of them.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

The Flames on the TAMI Show are not the originals, who were gone by then, and King/Syd Nathan didn't put much emphasis on the them, only James.

Bobby Byrd was. And that's always the danger with some groups. Syd treated the Midnighters the same way, only having Hank Ballard basically overshadow the rest of them.

It's the same thing that happened to The Supremes, Motown pushed Diana and not Flo, Mary, & Cindy. After Diana left, they didn't promote the later lineups in the same way. The lead singer is usually the focus, except maybe a hard rock band, where it might be the guitarist.

Timmy84 said:

MickyDolenz said:

The Flames on the TAMI Show are not the originals, who were gone by then, and King/Syd Nathan didn't put much emphasis on the them, only James.

Bobby Byrd was. And that's always the danger with some groups. Syd treated the Midnighters the same way, only having Hank Ballard basically overshadow the rest of them.

And I still don't know any of the Midnighters.

At least the Flames got some press, released singles here and there.

JB may have been a bully, tough but he did give many artist chances to records on various labels in the 50's and 60's.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

Bobby Byrd was. And that's always the danger with some groups. Syd treated the Midnighters the same way, only having Hank Ballard basically overshadow the rest of them.

And I still don't know any of the Midnighters.

At least the Flames got some press, released singles here and there.

JB may have been a bully, tough but he did give many artist chances to records on various labels in the 50's and 60's.

Which makes it real bizarre. Maybe he just was bipolar. I do know he gave a lot of people opportunities. Hell Tammi started charting with him. But, I don't know, all those people in his "empire", more still could've been done. I think his sense of how he saw loyalty was different from anyone else's and it made it difficult for others to work with him without causing problems. It's a shame about the Midnighters though. They totally got the shaft. Hell even the group's FOUNDER wasn't inducted with the other Midnighters! Least Bobby Byrd did.

Marva put a book out a few years ago right?

As far as 1959/1960 he was putting out artist from his band. Either by Bobby Roach (guitarist), Nat Kendrick (drummer) or JC Davis (sax)

Next, he released tracks from Famous Flames Baby Lloyd in 1960.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Marva put a book out a few years ago right?

Yeah I think so...

It's interesting about this time period. He was told by King not to put out "Let's Do the Mashed Potatoes" so he signed with Dade Records in Miami (Henry Stone's label I think) and put it out as Nate Kendrick and the Swans.

MickyDolenz said:

In the new book The One, it said that Bill Withers put a knife to James throat because on the plane flight to Africa for the Ali/Foreman fight, James was in first class while everybody else was coach. James was told by the airline that he had too much stuff in his section, which would make the plane unbalanced, and he refused to move. So Bill "asked" James to move to coach, and James did.

during a q&a promoting his doc film a fan ask him if he held a knife to mr brown throat during the plane ride and he said no it never happened.

MickyDolenz said:

In the new book The One, it said that Bill Withers put a knife to James throat because on the plane flight to Africa for the Ali/Foreman fight, James was in first class while everybody else was coach. James was told by the airline that he had too much stuff in his section, which would make the plane unbalanced, and he refused to move. So Bill "asked" James to move to coach, and James did.

during a q&a promoting his doc film a fan ask him if he held a knife to mr brown throat during the plane ride and he said no it never happened.

Timmy84 said:

It's interesting about this time period. He was told by King not to put out "Let's Do the Mashed Potatoes" so he signed with Dade Records in Miami (Henry Stone's label I think) and put it out as Nate Kendrick and the Swans.

They wierd thing about King/Syd is that they believed in him but didn't want him to do too much.

Reading the booklets to his singles collection that Hip-O put out, right from the start they wanted JB and could really care less about the other "Flames."

They didn't belive in "Please" thought it was shit and were suprised it was a hit. That might be why they kept him at Federal so long cause he (and the Flames) had 9 straight flops after that.

In early March 1957 Ben Bart told the Flames (Byrd, Terry, Keels and the Knox brothers) that "JB don't need no Flames, he's the one they comin to see. Splittin up the money equally is crazy. Now y'all can stay and work for $35 a night or y'all can go home." They went home.

So JB's first solo record was "Messin With The Blue" released in May of 1957.

In July of that year aftertaking over dates for Little Richard, he hied some replacement Flames (Bill Hollings, JW Archer and Louis Madison) from the Dominions. The Dominions were a vocal group that backed up Little Richard and the Upsetters. I think that's where history confuses James taking the Upsetters as his backing band. The Upsetters went and backanother artist, Dee Clark.

Syd was done with JB by the new year (1958) basically. He had no more plans to record him. After another flop in Feb of that year Syd was done. It took James his own money to record a demo in August of that year titled "Try Me" Syd loved it and in October it became his first #1 record/top 50 pop smash.

[Edited 7/11/12 16:09pm]

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

It's interesting about this time period. He was told by King not to put out "Let's Do the Mashed Potatoes" so he signed with Dade Records in Miami (Henry Stone's label I think) and put it out as Nate Kendrick and the Swans.

They wierd thing about King/Syd is that they believed in him but didn't want him to do too much.

Reading the booklets to his singles collection that Hip-O put out, right from the start they wanted JB and could really care less about the other "Flames."

They didn't belive in "Please" thought it was shit and were suprised it was a hit. That might be why they kept him at Federal so long cause he (and the Flames) had 9 straight flops after that.

In early March 1957 Ben Bart told the Flames (Byrd, Terry, Keels and the Knox brothers) that "JB don't need no Flames, he's the one they comin to see. Splittin up the money equally is crazy. Now y'all can stay and work for $35 a night or y'all can go home." They went home.

So JB's first solo record was "Messin With The Blue" released in May of 1957.

In July of that year aftertaking over dates for Little Richard, he hied some replacement Flames (Bill Hollings, JW Archer and Louis Madison) from the Dominions. The Dominions were a vocal group that backed up Little Richard and the Upsetters. I think that's where history confuses James taking the Upsetters as his backing band. The Upsetters went and backanother artist, Dee Clark.

Syd was done with JB by the new year (1958) basically. He had no more plans to record him. After another flop in Feb of that year Syd was done. It took James his own money to record a demo in August of that year titled "Try Me" Syd loved it and in October it became his first #1 record/top 50 pop smash.

[Edited 7/11/12 16:09pm]

AH! OK... Now the way the original Flames broke up makes more sense. Wow, Ben Bart must've been a COLD dude. That's how it became James Brown and the Famous Flames, huh? Because I wasn't sure of the biography myself... yeah it didn't seem King cared for the Famous Flames much, which is why they lazingly released almost every recording under that name even under real solo cuts like "Night Train".

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

They wierd thing about King/Syd is that they believed in him but didn't want him to do too much.

Reading the booklets to his singles collection that Hip-O put out, right from the start they wanted JB and could really care less about the other "Flames."

They didn't belive in "Please" thought it was shit and were suprised it was a hit. That might be why they kept him at Federal so long cause he (and the Flames) had 9 straight flops after that.

In early March 1957 Ben Bart told the Flames (Byrd, Terry, Keels and the Knox brothers) that "JB don't need no Flames, he's the one they comin to see. Splittin up the money equally is crazy. Now y'all can stay and work for $35 a night or y'all can go home." They went home.

So JB's first solo record was "Messin With The Blue" released in May of 1957.

In July of that year aftertaking over dates for Little Richard, he hied some replacement Flames (Bill Hollings, JW Archer and Louis Madison) from the Dominions. The Dominions were a vocal group that backed up Little Richard and the Upsetters. I think that's where history confuses James taking the Upsetters as his backing band. The Upsetters went and backanother artist, Dee Clark.

Syd was done with JB by the new year (1958) basically. He had no more plans to record him. After another flop in Feb of that year Syd was done. It took James his own money to record a demo in August of that year titled "Try Me" Syd loved it and in October it became his first #1 record/top 50 pop smash.

[Edited 7/11/12 16:09pm]

AH! OK... Now the way the original Flames broke up makes more sense. Wow, Ben Bart must've been a COLD dude. That's how it became James Brown and the Famous Flames, huh? Because I wasn't sure of the biography myself... yeah it didn't seem King cared for the Famous Flames much, which is why they lazingly released almost every recording under that name even under real solo cuts like "Night Train".

How he got back with Byrd and the other Flames ...

"Try Me" was a monster hit in early 1959 and the release after "I Want You So Bad" was a top 20 R&B hit so for the first time he had 2 consecutive chating singles. With success comes big shows and he went on the road to NYC to open up for Lloyd Price who had an even bigger hit at that time then "Try Me" which was called "Stagger Lee."

He wasn't liking the Flames at that time, as they were into drugs and drinking so JB fired them. He had not heard the news of the James Brown Show openning up the Apollo for Little Willie John. This was his first time at the Apollo and he had no Flames. He did how ever have a some people in mind. Baby Lloyd was the show valet at the time, he had picked up Bobby Bennett in North Carolina as a roadie a while back and Johnny Terry, no longer a Flame (at that time) was still hanging around with JB. He needed one man to shape them up for the show, Bobby Byrd. He called Bobby and pleaded with him and Bobby came back but just to coach them ... Eventually James said "I'll only trust them if you're up there with them." And the Flames were back.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

AH! OK... Now the way the original Flames broke up makes more sense. Wow, Ben Bart must've been a COLD dude. That's how it became James Brown and the Famous Flames, huh? Because I wasn't sure of the biography myself... yeah it didn't seem King cared for the Famous Flames much, which is why they lazingly released almost every recording under that name even under real solo cuts like "Night Train".

How he got back with Byrd and the other Flames ...

"Try Me" was a monster hit in early 1959 and the release after "I Want You So Bad" was a top 20 R&B hit so for the first time he had 2 consecutive chating singles. With success comes big shows and he went on the road to NYC to open up for Lloyd Price who had an even bigger hit at that time then "Try Me" which was called "Stagger Lee."

He wasn't liking the Flames at that time, as they were into drugs and drinking so JB fired them. He had not heard the news of the James Brown Show openning up the Apollo for Little Willie John. This was his first time at the Apollo and he had no Flames. He did how ever have a some people in mind. Baby Lloyd was the show valet at the time, he had picked up Bobby Bennett in North Carolina as a roadie a while back and Johnny Terry, no longer a Flame (at that time) was still hanging around with JB. He needed one man to shape them up for the show, Bobby Byrd. He called Bobby and pleaded with him and Bobby came back but just to coach them ... Eventually James said "I'll only trust them if you're up there with them." And the Flames were back.

Oh so that's how they were replaced?! Jeez Louise...

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

How he got back with Byrd and the other Flames ...

"Try Me" was a monster hit in early 1959 and the release after "I Want You So Bad" was a top 20 R&B hit so for the first time he had 2 consecutive chating singles. With success comes big shows and he went on the road to NYC to open up for Lloyd Price who had an even bigger hit at that time then "Try Me" which was called "Stagger Lee."

He wasn't liking the Flames at that time, as they were into drugs and drinking so JB fired them. He had not heard the news of the James Brown Show openning up the Apollo for Little Willie John. This was his first time at the Apollo and he had no Flames. He did how ever have a some people in mind. Baby Lloyd was the show valet at the time, he had picked up Bobby Bennett in North Carolina as a roadie a while back and Johnny Terry, no longer a Flame (at that time) was still hanging around with JB. He needed one man to shape them up for the show, Bobby Byrd. He called Bobby and pleaded with him and Bobby came back but just to coach them ... Eventually James said "I'll only trust them if you're up there with them." And the Flames were back.

Oh so that's how they were replaced?! Jeez Louise...

He's quoted as saying "vocally, they were the best set of Flames he's ever had."

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

Oh so that's how they were replaced?! Jeez Louise...

He's quoted as saying "vocally, they were the best set of Flames he's ever had."

He meant Byrd, Bennett, Terry and Stallworth?

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

He's quoted as saying "vocally, they were the best set of Flames he's ever had."

He meant Byrd, Bennett, Terry and Stallworth?

Naw, the group he fired the remains of Little Richard group the Dominions. Bill Hollings, JW Archer and Louis Madison.

He said vocally they were the best but were always off into drugs and drinking.

They can be heard on Try Me, I Want You So Bad, Bewildered (though Johnny Terry is also credited here) and other songs mostly from late 57 to very early 59.

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

He meant Byrd, Bennett, Terry and Stallworth?

Naw, the group he fired the remains of Little Richard group the Dominions. Bill Hollings, JW Archer and Louis Madison.

He said vocally they were the best but were always off into drugs and drinking.

They can be heard on Try Me, I Want You So Bad, Bewildered (though Johnny Terry is also credited here) and other songs mostly from late 57 to very early 59.

Oh... but he couldn't control their drug and drink intake and fired them?

Yo LBC, there was something else I wanted to ask... okay when Bobby Byrd started the group, you know how many were in the actual group?

I know now about Sylvester Keels, Derek Oglesby, Fred Pulliam and Roy Scott. But there was other names: Nafloyd Scott and Johnny Terry.

I wanted to know if they ever called themselves "The Five Royals" as it said in their article on Cleveland Plain Dealer before their induction and if not, did they simply go from the Gospel Starlighters to the Avons to the Flames?

And when did James Brown finally join? Like I always guessed it was '55. And I know he was a drummer when he started out because I posted the picture.

It just seemed it didn't take James long to get the lead vocal spot. I read they had a lead singer but he was killed or something and James ended up taking his spot but I'm not sure about it, I gotta read up on it.

There's a lot of history that is often not discussed.

Timmy84 said:

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Naw, the group he fired the remains of Little Richard group the Dominions. Bill Hollings, JW Archer and Louis Madison.

He said vocally they were the best but were always off into drugs and drinking.

They can be heard on Try Me, I Want You So Bad, Bewildered (though Johnny Terry is also credited here) and other songs mostly from late 57 to very early 59.

Oh... but he couldn't control their drug and drink intake and fired them?

As far back as 1957 he wanted his own backing band. He said they were always the best at the shows (Flames). How could he compete with Ray Charles when he has his own band that's tight as a drum? He wanted to use the Upsetters but Bass wouldn't pay them right so they went to CHicago with Dee Clark and sighed with VeeJay Records.

In the early days of the Famous Flames, they would be their own band. Nayfloyd Scott was the groups guitarist and Byrd and Brown would play whichever instruments (usually drums and piano) were available at a booking. But when they got the Federal/King things changed. Besides Scott, Fats Godner would be the pianist/organist in the early days.

Fats stayed and Scott and the other Flames would leave. Along with Fats, guitarist Bobby Roach would be the first member to join the James Brown Show in late 1958. After the success of Try Me in late 58, he hired the JC Davis Combo, along with drummer Nat Kendrick and longtime bassist Bernard Odum.

The James Brown Show made it's debut in December of 1958 and by 1960 was a full out show and would feature The Famous Flames, Nat "Mashed Potatoes" Kendrick, Little Bobby Roach and his Combo, Bea Ford, Baby Lloyd and The JC Davis Orchestra.

Timmy84 said:

G3000 said:

This is FUNKY!

You can say that again!!! James was always a monster with those moves and the Famous Flames was FUCKING SMOOTH. James and the Famous Flames made the Tempts look like PANSIES in comparison. That stop motion that Michael and Prince (and virtually every dance/choreographed-oriented star) later picked on started right here. I think this was actually the greatest show they ever did, and especially the greatest show James Brown ever did. I don't think he ever topped it.

Totally agree with you Timmy, this show is just sick! I get so excited everytime I watch it, so amazing! I dont thnk he topped it either, it was just so good and the Famous Flames did their thing!

LittleBLUECorvette said:

Timmy84 said:

Oh... but he couldn't control their drug and drink intake and fired them?

As far back as 1957 he wanted his own backing band. He said they were always the best at the shows (Flames). How could he compete with Ray Charles when he has his own band that's tight as a drum? He wanted to use the Upsetters but Bass wouldn't pay them right so they went to CHicago with Dee Clark and sighed with VeeJay Records.

In the early days of the Famous Flames, they would be their own band. Nayfloyd Scott was the groups guitarist and Byrd and Brown would play whichever instruments (usually drums and piano) were available at a booking. But when they got the Federal/King things changed. Besides Scott, Fats Godner would be the pianist/organist in the early days.

Fats stayed and Scott and the other Flames would leave. Along with Fats, guitarist Bobby Roach would be the first member to join the James Brown Show in late 1958. After the success of Try Me in late 58, he hired the JC Davis Combo, along with drummer Nat Kendrick and longtime bassist Bernard Odum.

The James Brown Show made it's debut in December of 1958 and by 1960 was a full out show and would feature The Famous Flames, Nat "Mashed Potatoes" Kendrick, Little Bobby Roach and his Combo, Bea Ford, Baby Lloyd and The JC Davis Orchestra.

I see. Yeah he wanted a band that would be as tight as Little Richard's and Ray Charles'. So he didn't get the Upsetters after all. Interesting that Byrd and Brown switched instruments. Interesting it was first called "The James Brown Show" at first. Interesting timeline. Helps to flesh a lot of things out.

Timmy84 said:

GoldDolphin said:

I LOVE LOVE James Brown, one of my biggest inspirations but I know he was an asshole. He had many emotional problems that never got worked on and to me that's reflected on how he treated people. I also know about the famous flames because I studied him in depth, but also because Michael mentioned how much he loved that soul era of James & The Famous Flames. It's sad they arent known and credited for helping James Brown, because they were essential to his career.

Right. This don't take away my love of James Brown the entertainer but it further shows how much of an egocentric person he was. I know the times then made things hard but not so hard that you step over your own HOMEBOYS to get top billing. Especially the man who put him in the group just so he can stay out of trouble. This is a reason I posted this topic. I honestly do wanna discuss why the Flames were so obscured from history books. I don't think it was something that James naively left off. You ask any music lover who knows James Brown, they may tell you he was a solo artist when "Please, Please, Please" was released. And we know now that that's false.

Exactly! You're right he was very egocentric and that sadly reflected many things he did and I def think it was on purpose that he changed the story about the Famous Flames, which is a shame. Yes, it's very interesting that nobody mentions them but I think somehow that they want to give more cred to James Brown because of his significance in popular music you know and that's why they want to erase other people who helped him, which isnt strange - because he wanted to create this type of cult around him (all the titles godfather of soul and so on, which he of course deserves but it's sad he wasnt man enough to give the right respect to people who helped him) and he succeeded.