First off, apologies if this has been covered in another thread that I've missed.

Anyway, Sylvia Massy who worked in Prince's studio recently uploaded a version of Kate Bush's "Why Should I love You?" on her website. It's not certain, but it seems very likely that this version is in fact the version that Prince did from the tapes Kate send him - which Kate Bush then had to rework back again because Prince had gone rogue on her song. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/w...LvdLIJdV8w

Kate Bush's unfinished and quite different "demo" which she sent to Prince can be heard here: https://www.youtube.com/w...bP-dapt09Q

And finally the version released on Kate Bush's The Red Shoes album which is kind of a mix between the two: https://www.youtube.com/w...uVwVT35lVE

So, I love the released version and the Prince elements in it, but I have to say that when I heard Kate Bush's original "demo", it blew me away! And now hearing what he did to it, I can understand why she was bewildered. It totally lacks the sensitivities of the original.

This leads to former Prince engineer Michael Koppelman's account of the process of the song. It doesn't paint Prince in the best light, but hey, we know that his genious came with some not so flattering traits. It's been posted here before, but it's a good read:

On Mon, 2 Oct 1995 kln@crl.com wrote:

> > lolife@bitstream.net (LoLife) writes:
> > I've begged her to let me record or mix something for years (that's what
> > I do for a living). My wish came true when I worked on Why Should I
> > Love You when I worked for Prince, but I hated what he did to that song
> > so much it killed me.
> >
>
> So, lolife, tell us about this experience. We're curious little animals, the Love Hounds.
>
> Did you ever get to talk to Kate in person?

I did, but only for a short moment. I was at home and the phone rang. I
didn't always answer the phone in those days, because I was severly
overworked. So my answering machine picked it up and I heard Julie, from
Paisley Park, saying "Mike, I got Kate Bush on the phone and she has some
questions about what format they should send things over on, and I
thought it would be best if she talked to you. I, being an admitted Kate
Bush fan, freaked, but picked up the phone and talked to Julie. She says,
Kate, I have Prince's engineer Michael Koppelman on the phone and he can
answer your questions. Meanwhile, my answering machine is still recording
it all, and blaring loudly. I tell my then girlfriend to shut if off just
as Kate comes on and says Hello Michael? (so to this day, if I could find
it, i have a tape of Kate saying hello to me...). The conversation
consisted only of her asking me if they could send 24-track tapes and
what series SSL computer disks. I also asked her if she was going to come
to Minneapolis, and she said I don't think I'm wanted out there right
now. Then we basically said good-bye and hung up.

It's funny because Prince knew I was a huge KB fan. He was too, but not
like me. The first time I asked him if he liked Kate Bush he said, she's
my favorite woman. I also made him a tape of all the KB b-sides, which
fucking rule. When The Sensual World came out he had someone go get it and
we listened to it in the studio. He didn't dig it that much, but I knew
you can't always tell right away with a Kate album. TSW grew on me, but it
is still not her best effort. This Woman's Work is a masterpiece, though,
and makes the whole album worth it. But I digress. Prince is weird, and a
couple stories in this post prove it. I may be tooting my own horn here,
but Prince has a weird ego. I think *part* of his motivation to work with
Kate was the fact that I worshipped her, and he knew it would impress me
that he could call her on the phone and work on her music and shit.
ANYWAY, what led up to the phone conversation above: one day Prince's
assistant, Therese, told me as we were talking on the phone that Kate Bush
had called. Therese also knew I was a big Kate fan. Then, in the studio
that day, Prince said, guess who I talked to today. Me, being stupid and
unable to keep my mouth shut, said, Kate Bush? Prince got a little miffed,
and said How did you know that? And I said Therese told me, and he said,
hmm, I should dock here for that. At that point I knew I fucked up and
tried to say, no, she just knew I'm a big fan. As a side note, I told
Therese that Prince was a little pissed that she had told me that, and she
apologized to him. Therese is a really cool person. So, Prince tells me
that he and Kate are going to work on a tune together. He also told me
that while they were talking he told her that his engineer would rather
work with her than him. (I thought, wow, Prince and Kate Bush talking
about me!) ANYWAY, Eventually the phone call above occured and the tapes
arrived and I put them up and got a rough mix up. I still have a cassette
of it. It fucking rules. It is 1 million times better than the lame diso
Prince put on it. There was, of course, no disco on it before Prince got
his hands on it. So Prince comes in and listens to it. And the brutality
began. First we sampled the drum thing and synced it up to my Powerbook so
we could do MIDI. At that point, we essentially created a new song on a
new piece of tape and then flew all of Kate's tracks back on top of it. So
now we could run the sequencer and add all the keyboards that Prince put
on. So Prince stacked a bunch of keys, guitars, basses, etc, on it and then
went to sing background vocals. When Prince does vocals, he sits right at
the recording console with a microphone hanging over it and does his own
punching in and out. So he kicks everyone out of the room when he sings.
It took him a few hours and then he called me back in and played me the
thick, multi-tracked background vocals he had put on. Now, as we all know,
the song in question goes "Of all the people in the world why should i
love you". When Prince called me back in and played me what he had done,
he had sung "All of the people in the world", instead of Of All. I said,
isn't it OF all the people in the world? Not ALL of? He said, no, we had a
little talk about that, in his cocky way, as if to say he had talked with
Kate about changing the words to "all of" instead of "of all". The next
day, I was waiting at my hotel room for the call to go to the studio when
the assistant engineer, Sylvia Massy, called and said Prince was in the
studio doing vocals. I was surprised; i was always called well in advance
of Prince going into the studio. When I got there he was changing all the
vocals to "Of All", and was sampling them in himself, which is something
he would normally never do himself. My interpetation? He made a mistake,
as humans do, and didn't have the guts to admit it. That's weird. So I
sorta poked my head in at one point and asked him if he needed any help,
and we went on with the day. Eventually he had me do a rough mix, and when
he had approved it, we sent it to Kate. I got a call from Therese a few
days (or weeks, I forget) later. She said, Kate Bush said to destroy all
copies of that mix. I said, huh? Did she not like it or something? (my
heart rejoiced, because I hated what Prince did to it) She said, I don't
know, she just said to destroy them. Later on Prince told me, Kate Bush
liked what we did. She said it sounded very American. So at that point I
wasn't sure if she was even going to use it. We sent the tapes back and
she sort of split the difference with what he sent and what's on the
record. Kate, if you read this, stick the pre-Prince version of Why Should
I Love You out on something. And let me do a remix of Not This Time.

Later,
LoLife
aka
Michael Koppelman
lolife@bitstream.net
http://www.bitstream.net/gods/lolife

DISCLAIMER: The above is my perception of what occured. I was there, and
that's what I thought of it. I did not intend to invade anyone's privacy,
nor have I signed a non-disclosure agreement with any of the parties
mentioned. I also want to add that I truly enjoyed my years working for
Prince, but the man treats people as if he thinks he is actually "better"
than them, like he's royalty or something, and that makes it hard to look
back on working with him fondly.

Posted by lolife at February 15, 2005 05:21 PM

[Edited 1/27/22 15:32pm]

Everything before the bass comes in is really unnecessary, I always thought the released version was very messy and difficult to enjoy. Something better could've come from them collaborating, maybe if it had happened a few years earlier.

NouveauDance said:

Everything before the bass comes in is really unnecessary, I always thought the released version was very messy and difficult to enjoy. Something better could've come from them collaborating, maybe if it had happened a few years earlier.

OMG her demo version is soooo much better (indeed).

And thank you for reposting the article btw.

-

I agree.

It has that typical Prince era sound all over it.

Which i personally never liked that much. Prince's wall of sound era,

too much filled in samples and glued together sounds.

Indeed it would've been better if both worked earlier or even later together.

-

I always wished for Prince to work with her on his accoustic piano album.

That would've been fantastic imho.

They could've done a song at the piano, both playing in one song, just imagine, and building up some passionate vocals together... I can already hear it in my mind.

-

Michael Koppelman told his story for what it's worth, and I like that.

We basically never know much of what happened in the studio, and how Prince really behaved.

We always get the genius part of it, barely ever the normal and human side of it.

'Cocky Prince!' LOL. That's how I pretty much imagine him being most of the time.

-

"Short People" by Randy Newman comes to mind.

[Edited 1/28/22 2:29am]

To be fair here - Kate's chorus on the demo (which starts around 0:54 mins) manages to destroy the groove, as the drum pattern suddenly drags & a disjointed chord progression sets in. This part must've instantly jolted Prince's musical instincts, and musically he was completely right to erase much of that segment and focus on the "why of all... ...why should I love you" part and embellish it with the multi-tracked vocals' response. His guitar adds much-needed color to the song, and the keyboards in the beginning give an unusual minor-chord counterpoint to Kate's basic chords (at 0:30 mins). Prince gives form to something, that was either in an embryonic stage or just clumsily written. Handing the demo over to Prince is perhaps an indication, that Kate herself didn't know what to do with the song. Also, the engineer's accusation, that Prince put "disco" on top of the song, is ludicrous. Praise to Prince for having the courage (or "ego" or whatever), to mess with a mediocre song.

[Edited 1/28/22 12:31pm]

Also, we don't have Prince's account of the creation. Perhaps Kate was on the phone with Prince and said something to the extent of: "Your Highness, I have this cool song, but I just don't know what to do with the chorus. It's kinda meandering, but if you were to sprinkle some of your purple fairy dust on it..."

Mind very much blown.

While Prince is my "main thing", I'm a huge KB fan too and I've never heard either of these versions. If that second version really is all Kate's work then my mind's doubly blown as I always assumed that main motif that plays all the way through was Prince's work. (It sounds like his M.O. at the time.) Or maybe they'd been exchanging ideas already and this was Kate's interpretation.

Definitely prefer the finished article over either version to be honest, although I could do without Lenny Henry, bless him!

Really interesting thread, but no way is that first link you gave actually Prince?!! It's so harmonically wrong, he wouldn't be capable of something that bad! And you don't need to be a musicologist to recognise it, either.

Thanks for the link!

I definately like #1 more than the demo.

Also, Kate's ghost-vocal on 'My Computer' is a fine Prince production hilarity!

"...thanks Kate" <-(in the liner notes)

DISCLAIMER: The above is my perception of what occured. I was there, and
that's what I thought of it. I did not intend to invade anyone's privacy,
nor have I signed a non-disclosure agreement with any of the parties
mentioned. I also want to add that I truly enjoyed my years working for
Prince, but the man treats people as if he thinks he is actually "better"
than them, like he's royalty or something, and that makes it hard to look
back on working with him fondly.

That's such a weird way to think of any musical genius in the studio, let alone Prince in 1991.

Listening to all 3 versions makes me appreciate what Prince did with it more, and realize how influential the final version was on some of the really vapid pop music produced today, unfortunately.

Prince's version sounds more like a demo than the original, but it's easy to hear why Prince added all the crap to make it sound like a duet and wedge his presence into the song.

If we think about where Prince was musically in 1990-91, it makes more sense. What Kate Bush sent him was too close to the music Prince was moving on from. He was trying to make pop hits that sounded heavily produced. Something about this sounds more like Michael Jackson from that era with the guitar soloing in the background like an afterthought, and more textural but it's too busy to be texture.

Is there an example of Prince being sent a demo like this for him to finish in collaboration with an established artist that ever worked? I'm not sure those Madonna songs count.

he should have just sent it forward to clare fischer and then added some small guitar bits to it and some beautiful background harmonies.

still, it's interesting to hear all these versions.

Amazing

lavendardrummachine said:

What Kate Bush sent him was too close to the music Prince was moving on from.

Yeah, but Kate's thinking in sending it to him is obvious and she probably would have been proven right if Prince had had the humilty to recognise it. The opening of Kate's demo is strongly reminiscent of Prince's 80s pop to my ears, you can easily imagine Apollonia, Jill Jones or The Family singing it. What he did with the track is illustrative of his tendency to over-produce in later years and while I don't hate it, Kate's demo is my favourite. Not sure about this new version...sounds really off to me.

Her demo is far and away better than Prince's version (it sounds unmixed. The bass and drums are too loud) and the final version. I hope she officially releases her version one day.

fen said:

lavendardrummachine said:

What Kate Bush sent him was too close to the music Prince was moving on from.

Yeah, but Kate's thinking in sending it to him is obvious

Well right, even though Prince was known to reinvent his sound, he was still really associated with certain sginatures you could imagine Kate Bush thinking were appropriate for this track and purposely sending this one over. But it doesn't sound like it needed Prince. He could have just added background vocals and called it a day.

I'm a little surprised an engineer working for Prince wouldn't catch the whole dynamic happening though, and figure out Prince was having the same realization and scribbling over it on purpose, and tactfully have the dialogue Prince needed from inner circle. If he'd even revisted his approach on Cocoa Boyz it would have still been wrong, but a little better.

Milty2 said:

Her demo is far and away better than Prince's version (it sounds unmixed. The bass and drums are too loud) and the final version. I hope she officially releases her version one day.

It's not Prince's version. Read my above post. There's no way he would have sent her something that bad. Some of you guys need to know what harmony means. Cotton buds are handy if anyone needs them.

lavendardrummachine said:

fen said:

Yeah, but Kate's thinking in sending it to him is obvious

But it doesn't sound like it needed Prince. He could have just added background vocals and called it a day.

Yes, I see what you mean. It's hard to imagine what he could have done with it beside execute it in the same spirit as the demo.

fortuneandserendipity said:

Milty2 said:

Her demo is far and away better than Prince's version (it sounds unmixed. The bass and drums are too loud) and the final version. I hope she officially releases her version one day.

It's not Prince's version. Read my above post. There's no way he would have sent her something that bad. Some of you guys need to know what harmony means. Cotton buds are handy if anyone needs them.

Yes, listening back on my headphones (I just skimmed through it on my laptop previously), it's got to be a fake of some kind, as you say the harmony is really off. Also, the sounds do not seem right for the period to me, like some kind of modern hack job. I could be wrong, but it doesn't sound legit to me.

OP, do you have a link to the upload on Sylvia's website?

Vannormal said:

"Short People" by Randy Newman comes to mind.

I think you might have missed the point of that song.

fen said:

OP, do you have a link to the upload on Sylvia's website?

It's here on Sylvia Massy's website: https://m.sylviamassy.com/music/

There's no information about it, so it's only a (qualified) guess that it is Prince's version - a guess that the good people at Princevault.com are also making: https://princevault.com/i...ove_You%3F

fortuneandserendipity said:

Milty2 said:

Her demo is far and away better than Prince's version (it sounds unmixed. The bass and drums are too loud) and the final version. I hope she officially releases her version one day.

It's not Prince's version. Read my above post. There's no way he would have sent her something that bad. Some of you guys need to know what harmony means. Cotton buds are handy if anyone needs them.

I made no mention of harmony and so I don't know why you've got your shorts in a bunch. I'm inclined to believe that is Prince's version. Ppl on here need to stop acting like Prince was this perfect artist and perfect human.

Milty2 said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

It's not Prince's version. Read my above post. There's no way he would have sent her something that bad. Some of you guys need to know what harmony means. Cotton buds are handy if anyone needs them.

I made no mention of harmony and so I don't know why you've got your shorts in a bunch. I'm inclined to believe that is Prince's version. Ppl on here need to stop acting like Prince was this perfect artist and perfect human.

It's not Prince's version. He wouldn't make music that bad. I could tell within half a minute.

^ Make that 35 seconds. Oh it feels good to have my ears.

fortuneandserendipity said:

^ Make that 35 seconds. Oh it feels good to have my ears.

Yeah sure ok.

You can hear that version in the final released version. Kate Bush and Del Palmer had to add all sorts new parts to cover up his treatment. If you can't hear that, we'll then I'm not sure having your ears is a good thing.

[Edited 1/30/22 4:52am]

The synth line, yes, is the same in the final version. But turned down in the mix, much quieter. Still, if Prince is responsible for this aberrant harmony, then I'm going to have to change my opinion of him. William Orbit must have abducted him and forced him to produce those notes.

lavendardrummachine said:

DISCLAIMER: The above is my perception of what occured. I was there, and
that's what I thought of it. I did not intend to invade anyone's privacy,
nor have I signed a non-disclosure agreement with any of the parties
mentioned. I also want to add that I truly enjoyed my years working for
Prince, but the man treats people as if he thinks he is actually "better"
than them, like he's royalty or something, and that makes it hard to look
back on working with him fondly.

That's such a weird way to think of any musical genius in the studio, let alone Prince in 1991.

Listening to all 3 versions makes me appreciate what Prince did with it more, and realize how influential the final version was on some of the really vapid pop music produced today, unfortunately.

Prince's version sounds more like a demo than the original, but it's easy to hear why Prince added all the crap to make it sound like a duet and wedge his presence into the song.

If we think about where Prince was musically in 1990-91, it makes more sense. What Kate Bush sent him was too close to the music Prince was moving on from. He was trying to make pop hits that sounded heavily produced. Something about this sounds more like Michael Jackson from that era with the guitar soloing in the background like an afterthought, and more textural but it's too busy to be texture.

Is there an example of Prince being sent a demo like this for him to finish in collaboration with an established artist that ever worked? I'm not sure those Madonna songs count.

I begin to dislike the use of the word 'genius' concerning Prince working on other artists music tbh.

I'm with the engineer, saying "I was there, and that's what I thought of it."

And you're right that whatever Prince did with other artists, basically never really worked.

Prince left clearly his mark on others' music. But I believe that he rarely allowed others to leave their mark on his music. But that's another thing.

Some (so called) collaborations are just not googd enough imo, like Tevin Campbell, TC Ellis, Carmen, some George Clinton even, etc.

Was Prince actually a good collaborator ?

Knowing his self-righteousness, & the duty of 'stardom' and expectations...

Were the expectations on both sides of any collaboration correct to begin with ?

[Edited 1/31/22 1:50am]

fortuneandserendipity said:

Milty2 said:

I made no mention of harmony and so I don't know why you've got your shorts in a bunch. I'm inclined to believe that is Prince's version. Ppl on here need to stop acting like Prince was this perfect artist and perfect human.

It's not Prince's version. He wouldn't make music that bad. I could tell within half a minute.

Exactly this is just the long ago posted remix.
I just tried to find the version I had (from probably the Royal Hub) which was Prince's version (Prince dubbing it) of the track but can't find it anymore on any of my discs! That one seems to have slipped by the Bootlggers back in the day. In total there are 4 versions of this song floating around (1 the released version, 2. Kate Bush's demo, 3. the remix, 4. Prince's dub)

JorisE73 said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

It's not Prince's version. He wouldn't make music that bad. I could tell within half a minute.

Exactly this is just the long ago posted remix.
I just tried to find the version I had (from probably the Royal Hub) which was Prince's version (Prince dubbing it) of the track but can't find it anymore on any of my discs! That one seems to have slipped by the Bootlggers back in the day. In total there are 4 versions of this song floating around (1 the released version, 2. Kate Bush's demo, 3. the remix, 4. Prince's dub)

It would be interesting to hear Prince's dub version, but I suspect it will still have the same synth with the very dodgy chord. It just sounds like it was pasted from a different song. Like an amateur's remix. Prince could do brilliantly in atonal territory though. Check, Lemon Crush and Lovesexy.