Paris is Burning is my favorite movie of all time... even more than PR and UTCM....

Paisley Park will be screening it on January 15th

I think this is VERY COOL...

BUT.......

Even though I excuse him (and I shouldn't) = I don't think Prince liked gay people very much.. at least later Prince didn't .....

I actually love that it is a little bit of a F*ck You to him after gay people supported and more importantly = stuck by him even in the lean years...

Anyone else think it is an 'interesting' choice?

I doubt he´d hate it, and I doubt that he was really homophobic just because he made some unfortunate remarks around the time the Rainbow Children came out. If he were truly homophobic he wouldn´t have shared the stage with Elton John, or been friends with Donatella Versace (whose brother Gianni was gay) or performed a rendition of Reflection with Wendy.

He often contradicted himself , and he said a lot of silly things sometimes.

KoolEaze said:

Phase3 said:

He also didn't approve of Wendy and Lisa being in a relationship and one of the reasons roadhouse garden didn't happen because one of the terms was he wanted Wendy and Lisa to denounce being gay

That's not wholly true.

What happened was this (and yes, I heard it from the horse's mouth... or at least a horse that was there): He wanted W&L to come work on these songs and get it ready for release. They said sure. Part of what happens when you ask someone to come to you and work is that you pay for their stay. You put 'em up in a hotel, pay for their flight - you host them. It's a courtesy. It doesn't put the worker out any money and let's them stay level financially and otherwise while doing the work. No one works for free, and it beats having to expense report a trip later.

Well, Prince didn't want to do that. He wanted W&L to fly from Los Angeles on their own credit card, and the work they were doing to work with and for him. He had no plans to pay for their expenses. Which really, how expensive is a hotel and transportation for the biggest pop star in the world to handle? It was a dick move.

Now, folks can backlash at W&L for this, but dis a bid'ness. Y'all ain't too far gone to see that yet. It was the right thing to do and he refused it. So, they said no. They didn't come.

He never asked them to fully renounce being gay. That's absurd. His "ask Wendy and Lisa" was because of the above statement. Not the gay thing.

Prince wouldn't have hated it. He probably wouldn't have done it at all. He didn't show movies like that.

Prince wouldn't be Prince, fashion wise or his androgny, without the folks who were in Paris is Burning, and moreover their predecessors. Drag and gay culture highly influenced Prince's own unusual bikini and trench coat aesthetic. It influenced glam rock, and a gazillion other things.

And this whole "Prince hates gay people" bullshit needs to stop. He performed with Wendy in 2004, and again with W&L at the Brit Awards. So stop it. Find a new and truthful topic.

TrivialPursuit said:

Phase3 said:

He also didn't approve of Wendy and Lisa being in a relationship and one of the reasons roadhouse garden didn't happen because one of the terms was he wanted Wendy and Lisa to denounce being gay

That's not wholly true.

What happened was this (and yes, I heard it from the horse's mouth... or at least a horse that was there): He wanted W&L to come work on these songs and get it ready for release. They said sure. Part of what happens when you ask someone to come to you and work is that you pay for their stay. You put 'em up in a hotel, pay for their flight - you host them. It's a courtesy. It doesn't put the worker out any money and let's them stay level financially and otherwise while doing the work. No one works for free, and it beats having to expense report a trip later.

Well, Prince didn't want to do that. He wanted W&L to fly from Los Angeles on their own credit card, and the work they were doing to work with and for him. He had no plans to pay for their expenses. Which really, how expensive is a hotel and transportation for the biggest pop star in the world to handle? It was a dick move.

Now, folks can backlash at W&L for this, but dis a bid'ness. Y'all ain't too far gone to see that yet. It was the right thing to do and he refused it. So, they said no. They didn't come.

He never asked them to fully renounce being gay. That's absurd. His "ask Wendy and Lisa" was because of the above statement. Not the gay thing.

Same story I heard back in 97.

He might have been able to separate the sexuality from the subculture, and as awful as it sounds, liked how AIDS factors in. Then again, it's been some years, maybe he could have evolved again.

I would like to personally deliver an invitation to Larry Graham.

And you know what...everyone can say what they want... P didn't like gay dudes.. and furthermore.. he never said SHIT to stand up for gay people.. never.....

instead said some bullshit about god is gonna see us sticking it everywhere and what's next.. gay marriage...

"And then on the opposite end of the spectrum you've got blue, you've got the Democrats, and they're, like, 'You can do whatever you want.' Gay marriage, whatever. But neither of them is right."

yeah.. that sounds like someone who LOVES gay people

AND do NOT tell me he was misquoted... that is just some bullshit damage control.

[Edited 12/4/21 15:27pm]

[Edited 12/4/21 15:28pm]

DotsofU said:

I would like to personally deliver an invitation to Larry Graham.

And you know what...everyone can say what they want... P didn't like gay dudes.. and furthermore.. he never said SHIT to stand up for gay people.. never.....

instead said some bullshit about god is gonna see us sticking it everywhere and what's next.. gay marriage...

"And then on the opposite end of the spectrum you've got blue, you've got the Democrats, and they're, like, 'You can do whatever you want.' Gay marriage, whatever. But neither of them is right."

yeah.. that sounds like someone who LOVES gay people

AND do NOT tell me he was misquoted... that is just some bullshit damage control.

[Edited 12/4/21 15:27pm]

[Edited 12/4/21 15:28pm]

Larry Graham was the worst thing that ever happened to Prince. LG got into P at a low point in his life and convinced him that he was being punished for his "past". Larry ain't no saint and had his own issues. Breaking up a man's marriage is an evil thing to do. Setting up another woman is even worse. No one needs an outside influence, especially one who wants to live for free in your guest house and be paid as a special member of the band.
Then, there's the drinking. It seems that P was always looking for a father figure and found ones who were all alike.

I've always seen his cover of Sylvester's "Dance (Disco Heat)" as an attempt to make amends for those comments. I love the NPG version.

TrivialPursuit said:

Prince wouldn't be Prince, fashion wise or his androgny, without the folks who were in Paris is Burning, and moreover their predecessors.

They all come from some of the same places, but the ball scene was contemporary to Prince, and they were probably more inspired by him then the other way around. Definitely their predecessors though.

lavendardrummachine said:

TrivialPursuit said:

Prince wouldn't be Prince, fashion wise or his androgny, without the folks who were in Paris is Burning, and moreover their predecessors.

They all come from some of the same places, but the ball scene was contemporary to Prince, and they were probably more inspired by him then the other way around. Definitely their predecessors though.

Drag queens have been around for centuries, darling. And the drag scene in the United States preceeded Prince. Sure, the film came out after Prince was a hit, but those people in the film had their godfathers and godmothers than were Prince's age or older.

DotsofU said:

Paris is Burning is my favorite movie of all time... even more than PR and UTCM....

Paisley Park will be screening it on January 15th

I think this is VERY COOL...

BUT.......

Even though I excuse him (and I shouldn't) = I don't think Prince liked gay people very much.. at least later Prince didn't .....

I actually love that it is a little bit of a F*ck You to him after gay people supported and more importantly = stuck by him even in the lean years...

Anyone else think it is an 'interesting' choice?

Great movie. Prince before being brainwashed by the Watchtower would have zero problem with PB

homesquid said:

Great movie. Prince before being brainwashed by the Watchtower would have zero problem with PB

And you know, I didn't know all the ins and outs of the ballroom scene, etc. And when Drag Race started, I didn't think about things like "category is..." or "the library is open," and all those things. But then, when one watches Paris is Burning you realize just how much of that underground culture RuPaul dragged (pun intended) into the mainstream.

I've literally walked into a local co-op produce market and said out loud to myself, "Category is...FRESHNESS!" haha

And no Prince wouldn't have an issue with it. He didn't hate anyone.

TrivialPursuit said:

lavendardrummachine said:

They all come from some of the same places, but the ball scene was contemporary to Prince, and they were probably more inspired by him then the other way around. Definitely their predecessors though.

Drag queens have been around for centuries, darling. And the drag scene in the United States preceeded Prince. Sure, the film came out after Prince was a hit, but those people in the film had their godfathers and godmothers than were Prince's age or older.

Have you seen the film? It's not just about drag and many are Trans, not drag.

The Harlem ball scene was it's own thing, it was very underground even after the film came out.

[Edited 12/5/21 21:46pm]

laytonian said:

Then, there's the drinking. It seems that P was always looking for a father figure and found ones who were all alike.

What do you mean exactly with this? What drinking are you talking about?

My personal view, and it isn’t a particularly original one, is that Prince was a highly contradictory character and that these contradictions were the defining themes of his career. It’s clear to me that Prince’s youthful instincts were liberal and “Dionysian” (in the Nietzschean definition of the term), but that he never fully expunged the religious conservatism that he was subjected to (the Apollonian, just to the labour the analogy). You can track the ebb and flow of this tension clearly in tracks like “We Can Fuck”, his abortive attempts to marry these conflicting tendencies (Lovesexy) and finally how he degenerated into a more traditional religious conservatism in later life. This was perhaps predictable, as the rebelliousness and sexual energy of youth becomes less potent with age. The fact that he never resolved these tensions represents an intellectual and moral failure on Prince’s part for sure, but I don’t think that it’s fair to label him a full-blown conservative or homophobe. Clearly, as a cultural icon he made significant contributions to furthering individualism, sexual freedom, promoting less rigid perceptions of gender and so on.

This may offend some and I want to be clear that I support social equality in every respect, but to an old radical and cynic like myself chastising the church and other religious institutions for being anti gay-marriage is a bit like criticising the KKK for their non-inclusive membership policy. The whole philosophy and ideology has become rotten at root and should be transcended, not reformed. Once you strip away the paternalistic and socially manipulative dimensions of religious faith very little remains. It's a mechanism of worldly power and nothing more. Prince was just another victim of a toxic historical discourse in my view and where he ended up in his own mind, only he can say.

[Edited 12/6/21 13:31pm]

My hair dresser is gay?

TrivialPursuit said:

Phase3 said:

He also didn't approve of Wendy and Lisa being in a relationship and one of the reasons roadhouse garden didn't happen because one of the terms was he wanted Wendy and Lisa to denounce being gay

That's not wholly true.

What happened was this (and yes, I heard it from the horse's mouth... or at least a horse that was there): He wanted W&L to come work on these songs and get it ready for release. They said sure. Part of what happens when you ask someone to come to you and work is that you pay for their stay. You put 'em up in a hotel, pay for their flight - you host them. It's a courtesy. It doesn't put the worker out any money and let's them stay level financially and otherwise while doing the work. No one works for free, and it beats having to expense report a trip later.

Well, Prince didn't want to do that. He wanted W&L to fly from Los Angeles on their own credit card, and the work they were doing to work with and for him. He had no plans to pay for their expenses. Which really, how expensive is a hotel and transportation for the biggest pop star in the world to handle? It was a dick move.

Now, folks can backlash at W&L for this, but dis a bid'ness. Y'all ain't too far gone to see that yet. It was the right thing to do and he refused it. So, they said no. They didn't come.

He never asked them to fully renounce being gay. That's absurd. His "ask Wendy and Lisa" was because of the above statement. Not the gay thing.

Still, i can't seem to understand why he did such an aweful thing to them, honestly ?

Paying for a hotel and flight for Pricne was peanuts, right ?

What did he actually mean with doing tsoemthing like this ?

Or did he have a bad bank account himself (at the time), we don't know of ?

TrivialPursuit said:

Prince wouldn't have hated it. He probably wouldn't have done it at all. He didn't show movies like that.

Prince wouldn't be Prince, fashion wise or his androgny, without the folks who were in Paris is Burning, and moreover their predecessors. Drag and gay culture highly influenced Prince's own unusual bikini and trench coat aesthetic. It influenced glam rock, and a gazillion other things.

And this whole "Prince hates gay people" bullshit needs to stop. He performed with Wendy in 2004, and again with W&L at the Brit Awards. So stop it. Find a new and truthful topic.

Well, whateer.

Prince is dead, and PP needs to move on.

Prince didn't hate (gay) people he knew and loved, he just wasn't keen with people being gay when he became a jehova witness.

If that makes sense...

Vannormal said:

TrivialPursuit said:

Now, folks can backlash at W&L for this, but dis a bid'ness. Y'all ain't too far gone to see that yet. It was the right thing to do and he refused it. So, they said no. They didn't come.

Still, i can't seem to understand why he did such an aweful thing to them, honestly ?

Paying for a hotel and flight for Pricne was peanuts, right ?

What did he actually mean with doing tsoemthing like this ?

Or did he have a bad bank account himself (at the time), we don't know of ?

Well, that's my question, too. Why was he such a dick about the whole thing? I don't get it. It's almost as if he was setting them to take the blame on something just for the sake of it.

His bank account wasn't that bad. All he had to do was pay the light bill, right?

Vannormal said:

Well, whateer.

Prince is dead, and PP needs to move on.

Prince didn't hate (gay) people he knew and loved, he just wasn't keen with people being gay when he became a jehova witness.

If that makes sense...

Don't get me wrong. I'm not one of those "Prince wouldn't have liked this, so it should never be spoken of again!" sorta folks. I've long said on there that PP doing its thing is exactly what the court ordered: monetize itself. And that's what they've done. People like BVH or whoever can sit here all day and bitch like they're some expert on running a business (when all any of them do is run their mouth), but they aren't there. I'm all for them having a movie night as much as having a snack bar, concerts, tours, or whatever.

lavendardrummachine said:

TrivialPursuit said:

Drag queens have been around for centuries, darling. And the drag scene in the United States preceeded Prince. Sure, the film came out after Prince was a hit, but those people in the film had their godfathers and godmothers than were Prince's age or older.

Have you seen the film? It's not just about drag and many are Trans, not drag.

The Harlem ball scene was it's own thing, it was very underground even after the film came out.

Sis, have a seat. When you're gay, as I am, Paris is Burning is practically required viewing.

fen said:

My personal view, and it isn’t a particularly original one, is that Prince was a highly contradictory character and that these contradictions were the defining themes of his career. It’s clear to me that Prince’s youthful instincts were liberal and “Dionysian” (in Nietzschean definition of the term), but that he never fully expunged the religious conservatism that he was subjected to (the Apollonian, just to the labour the analogy). You can track the ebb and flow of this tension clearly in tracks like “We Can Fuck”, his abortive attempts to marry these conflicting tendencies (Lovesexy) and finally how he degenerated into a more traditional religious conservatism in later life.

This was perhaps predictable, as the rebelliousness and sexual energy of youth becomes less potent with age. The fact that he never resolved these tensions represents an intellectual and moral failure on Prince’s part for sure, but I don’t think that it’s fair to label him a full-blown conservative or homophobe. Clearly, as a cultural icon he made significant contributions to furthering individualism, sexual freedom, promoting less rigid perceptions of gender and so on.

I believe any real Prince fan should be able to clearly see the almost constant contradictory nature of Prince's actions. If astrology were real, then he would perfectly fit the Gemini role. How many times did he reference that? "I got two sides, and they both friends." "Once was a ball with a line straight down the middle, one side was black, the other one white, and they both understood to little. And they spent their whole lives trying to tell each other what time it was..."

But Prince said it best in that song, "you only know what you know, you only see what your heart will show..." Prince only knew what he knew. And as a man in the second act of his life, he certainly searched for something more settling, and that's when religion came into it in a strong way.

I also believe it wasn't a fair assessment that he was a full on conservative or homophobic prick. The stories about him wanting to destroy the masters to Dirty Mind because he thought it was so bad is part of the conflict inside him. Hell, we all cringe at some shit we did thirty years ago. But I ain't tryin' to go back and burn the negatives. haha

It's another conversation, but I think it's something Madonna hasn't quite figure out yet at 63 years old. She's still trying to find the ledge and see how close she can get to it (as Prince noted himself doing). At 63, she could be doing better and different things while still making social or political statements. Just something ...better. Prince was seeking to do better, but his religion tainted it. And therein was his conflict. I don't think Prince was necessarily a moral failure. He really didn't live long enough to see that end. It's like the power going out before the last act of the play. We'll never know where he truly landed on things by the time he was an old geezer.

And you're right - he can never erase the contributions he made toward sexuality, gender roles, free thought, and breaking social norms. And for that reason, Paris is Burning seems quite perfect of a film to be shown at Paisley Park.

[Edited 12/6/21 10:17am]

Vannormal said:

Still, i can't seem to understand why he did such an aweful thing to them, honestly ?

Paying for a hotel and flight for Pricne was peanuts, right ?

What did he actually mean with doing tsoemthing like this ?

Or did he have a bad bank account himself (at the time), we don't know of ?

He did a similar thing with Morris Day and the Time. Check out the interview on Vlad TV , it´s on Youtube. It had very little to do with his bank account. Sometimes he´d anonymously spend huge amounts on charity, give away money left and right and be very generous and buy his friends a big house, and sometimes he´d be too stingy to pay for a decent hotel for his guests.

He was full of contradictions.

TrivialPursuit said:

lavendardrummachine said:

Have you seen the film? It's not just about drag and many are Trans, not drag.

The Harlem ball scene was it's own thing, it was very underground even after the film came out.

Sis, have a seat. When you're gay, as I am, Paris is Burning is practically required viewing.

You're saying that based on 2021.

The general Gay population in NYC had zero idea what was going on in Harlem, and wouldn't know how to find it if they wanted to. That culture didn't make its way downtown until after the film came out, and that was just to hire them to go go dance. It was that marginalized. Then again, they did know the difference between Trans and Drag and just straight passing though, all categories for competition. In those days Manhattan had one seedy transvestite bar, and the rest went to the West Side Highway for trade. Prince was staying at the Waldorf by then. Patricia Field was the manstream bridge between the communities. She had a few stores, and created Haus of Fields, but again, that was later.

The film's legendary and gone through a few revivals, but it's been a cult film until Drag Race and Pose.

Prince was heterosexual. He was not inspired by them, they were inspired by him. In the category of "Butch glam femme", etc. He took from drag, that's been well discussed here but there's very little chance he had any exposure to the Harlem balls.

funkaholic1972 said:

laytonian said:

Then, there's the drinking. It seems that P was always looking for a father figure and found ones who were all alike.

What do you mean exactly with this? What drinking are you talking about?

If you can't figure it out, I can't help you.

lavendardrummachine said:

TrivialPursuit said:

Sis, have a seat. When you're gay, as I am, Paris is Burning is practically required viewing.

You're saying that based on 2021.

The general Gay population in NYC had zero idea what was going on in Harlem, and wouldn't know how to find it if they wanted to. That culture didn't make its way downtown until after the film came out, and that was just to hire them to go go dance. It was that marginalized. Then again, they did know the difference between Trans and Drag and just straight passing though, all categories for competition. In those days Manhattan had one seedy transvestite bar, and the rest went to the West Side Highway for trade. Prince was staying at the Waldorf by then. Patricia Field was the manstream bridge between the communities. She had a few stores, and created Haus of Fields, but again, that was later.

The film's legendary and gone through a few revivals, but it's been a cult film until Drag Race and Pose.

Prince was heterosexual. He was not inspired by them, they were inspired by him. In the category of "Butch glam femme", etc. He took from drag, that's been well discussed here but there's very little chance he had any exposure to the Harlem balls.

Okay sweetie. :::Pat pat pat:::

TrivialPursuit said:

LoveGalore said:

TrivialPursuit said:

Okay sweetie. :::Pat pat pat:::

They're right though. Prince wasn't anywhere near ball culture. Wouldn't even know what one is until that movie and by then he was making his moves toward more masculine presentation.

I never said he was.