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Thread started 09/17/21 10:58pm

Phase3

How much of "Originals" was frankensteined?

I believe I remember reading on here that some of the tracks on Originals were Frankenstein mixes or doctored up mixes
And that some of the tracks aren't the original prince versions and they just used the same music but edited in Prince's original vocals
Holly rock is a good example of that
Also,I guess this is for the elite but how much of these demo have a long duration? "Sex shooter" and "Gigolo's get lonely too" fade out way too soon
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Reply #1 posted 09/17/21 11:57pm

TrivialPursuit

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Used the same music? The music that Prince recorded himself and put his own vocals over? That music? And where did those vocals come from? The original recording.

I believe it was edited a bit for the sake of just hearing him sing the song. All the excessive breaks and extended parts are unnecessary for the purpose of this CD.

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #2 posted 09/18/21 5:14am

bluegangsta

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Depends on what you mean by "Frankensteined" exactly, but the only track on the album that wasn't remixed is Love Thy Will Be Done.

Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain.
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Reply #3 posted 09/18/21 7:44am

steakfinger

bluegangsta said:

Depends on what you mean by "Frankensteined" exactly, but the only track on the album that wasn't remixed is Love Thy Will Be Done.

You can really tell, too. The harmony vocals are SUPER cranked so the new singer (in this case, Martika - though the harmony style sounds exactly like what Wilson Phillips were doing at that time and no doubt had an influence on Prince since they had big hits and he liked to keep an eye on the pop chart competition), could clearly hear what to sing. I would have preferred a remix.

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Reply #4 posted 09/18/21 8:29am

Phase3

bluegangsta said:

Depends on what you mean by "Frankensteined" exactly, but the only track on the album that wasn't remixed is Love Thy Will Be Done.


I read on here that the studio version of "holly rock" is the same as Sheila R's version except they just erased her vocals and added Prince's vocals.
Also,is it known if there is a Prince version of "Noon Rendezvous" with music?
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Reply #5 posted 09/18/21 9:05am

SchlomoThaHomo

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Phase3 said:

bluegangsta said:

Depends on what you mean by "Frankensteined" exactly, but the only track on the album that wasn't remixed is Love Thy Will Be Done.

I read on here that the studio version of "holly rock" is the same as Sheila R's version except they just erased her vocals and added Prince's vocals. Also,is it known if there is a Prince version of "Noon Rendezvous" with music?



Yea I think Neversin stated that Noon Rendezvous was not a genuine Prince mix, and that his version of the song had the full instrumentation just like Sheila's. Didn't he or someone else say you can hear the full instrumentation very faintly at certain points of the song, proving that not all of the tracks were used for the Originals version?

Neversin also stated that Prince's version of Baby U're A Trip, which was considered for more than one Prince album, did not have the Jill Jones background vocals, but his own, as heard in the bootleg version. So I suppose that's a Frankenstein.

Prince's version of Holly Rock was supposedly not as fleshed out as Sheila's, so the implication was that they took the vocal from his demo and combined it with the additional music recorded for Sheila's version.

"That's when stars collide. When there's space for what u want, and ur heart is open wide."
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Reply #6 posted 09/18/21 3:43pm

RODSERLING

TrivialPursuit said:

All the excessive breaks and extended parts are unnecessary for the purpose of this CD.


What??!
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Reply #7 posted 09/18/21 3:47pm

RODSERLING

Was Michael Howe ever asked about that in interviews ?
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Reply #8 posted 09/18/21 6:12pm

Polo1026

SchlomoThaHomo said:

Phase3 said:

bluegangsta said: I read on here that the studio version of "holly rock" is the same as Sheila R's version except they just erased her vocals and added Prince's vocals. Also,is it known if there is a Prince version of "Noon Rendezvous" with music?



Yea I think Neversin stated that Noon Rendezvous was not a genuine Prince mix, and that his version of the song had the full instrumentation just like Sheila's. Didn't he or someone else say you can hear the full instrumentation very faintly at certain points of the song, proving that not all of the tracks were used for the Originals version?

Neversin also stated that Prince's version of Baby U're A Trip, which was considered for more than one Prince album, did not have the Jill Jones background vocals, but his own, as heard in the bootleg version. So I suppose that's a Frankenstein.

Prince's version of Holly Rock was supposedly not as fleshed out as Sheila's, so the implication was that they took the vocal from his demo and combined it with the additional music recorded for Sheila's version.

I don't believe this at all -

From what I understand much of Originals was cut from cassette tapes and reels so there would be bleeding and there is on all the songs. But from the source material they had available, I don't believe they couldn't successfully isolate Prince's vocals and transport them to another song. More than likely is they had multiple versons of the songs and picked the best sound quality they could.

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Reply #9 posted 09/18/21 8:12pm

lurker316

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From @Scififilmnerd's website:


Originals, 2018-2019
Nothing Compares 2 U (4:40)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with The Family version
Sex Shooter (3:06)* - previously released, edit of #2
Manic Monday (2:51)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with Apollonia 6 version
100 MPH (3:31)* - previously released, slight edit of #2 without full intro
You’re My Love (4:24)* - fade-out edit of #1
Holly Rock (6:39)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with Sheila E. version
Baby, You’re A Trip (5:51)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with Jill Jones version
The Glamorous Life (4:12)* -previously released, edit of #2
Gigolos Get Lonely Too (4:41)* - previously released, edit of #1
Dear Michaelangelo (5:22)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with Eddie M sax from Sheila E. version
Wouldn’t You Love To Love Me? (5:56)* – previously released, fade-out edit of #4
Nothing Compares 2 U (Cinematic Mix) (4;23)*


https://chronologicalprincerecordingsindex.blogspot.com/2020/11/frankenstein-mixes-work-done-to-princes.html

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Reply #10 posted 09/18/21 9:20pm

TrivialPursuit

avatar

lurker316 said:

From @Scififilmnerd's website:


Originals, 2018-2019
Nothing Compares 2 U (4:40)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with The Family version
Sex Shooter (3:06)* - previously released, edit of #2
Manic Monday (2:51)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with Apollonia 6 version
100 MPH (3:31)* - previously released, slight edit of #2 without full intro
You’re My Love (4:24)* - fade-out edit of #1
Holly Rock (6:39)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with Sheila E. version
Baby, You’re A Trip (5:51)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with Jill Jones version
The Glamorous Life (4:12)* -previously released, edit of #2
Gigolos Get Lonely Too (4:41)* - previously released, edit of #1
Dear Michaelangelo (5:22)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with Eddie M sax from Sheila E. version
Wouldn’t You Love To Love Me? (5:56)* – previously released, fade-out edit of #4
Nothing Compares 2 U (Cinematic Mix) (4;23)*


https://chronologicalprincerecordingsindex.blogspot.com/2020/11/frankenstein-mixes-work-done-to-princes.html


But how does he know that? I mean, who is he? I don't know his name. That's all good and well, but are we forgetting that Prince completed songs, not just jotted them down on a napkin at Cinnabon or hummed them into a Sanyo cassette recorder? How many associates have said, "we just sang to his guide vocal and that was it. The song was already done."

*So who's to say that "Holly Rock" was pieced together from Sheila's released version and some parts of Prince's version? It's easier to just release Prince's version.

*"mixed with Apollonia 6 version" Okay well there was only the one "version" of the song regardless. Bangles rerecorded it.

*How does he or anyone know that Eddie M.'s sax from Sheila's take was mixed back into Prince's version of "Dear Michaelangelo?"

*And years ago, like in 2004, Paul released that "rhythmic" version of "Nothing Compares 2 U" on his site. 2004! I remember it, because I remember being suprised at the extra percussion or whatever in it. So what part of The Family's version is on Originals? Because the earlier version was already intact. Paul's vocals are with the percussive elements. The only difference now is Prince's guide vocal.

I just call bullshit on some of this. Makes for a great story, because Prince fans like to bitch about err'ythang. Sure, some things have been put together. "Rebirth of the Flesh" is a much bigger example, and a more valid one. It's stated as such. But all this other stuff? I'm not sold on it.


"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #11 posted 09/19/21 6:43am

TheEnglishGent

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Just because a collector has something, that doesn't mean that exact same version exists on masters in the vault. A lot of these come from people sharing what they had and that might not have even been a finished version that Prince would want to release. A good example is Witness 4 The Prosecution, where V1 was released recently. People said this wasn't V1 because we have an earlier version on bootleg. But that earlier 'version' was a work in progress and not intended as a complete version of the song. An assosciate shared/someon stole it, before further parts were put on it.


I always love to read when Neversin or whoever has some input on a song because the history is interesting. But just becuase he has or has heard X, doesn't mean that exact version exists in the vault today.

RIP sad
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Reply #12 posted 09/19/21 12:50pm

databank

avatar

I started denouncing the frankensteining thing alongside Neversin, and that was even before Originals: as early as NC2U in 2018, I came here to say something was fishy about that mix. And already before that, some other people -I forgot who it was, but I thank them for that- had taken notice of the fact that there was already something fishy about Our Destiny/Roadhouse Gardens in 2017.

.

Contrarily to what some people like to claim to try and discredit us, the reference mixes in circulation (either widely or among "elite" traders) were not, and far from being the single reason why we realized something was wrong there. Admitedly, since we didn't have access to the vault, all the evidence was circumstantial, but there was a lot of it.

.

Now, people will believe what they want. The point was made back then, lengthy explainations were given and, frankly, I'm tired of this Internet thing where you have to come back on a message board or on social media and explain the same things in lengthy details over and over again, ad nauseum. Those who weren't convinced then won't be convinced now. Those who weren't there then can do some research in past threads. So I won't re-explain everything that what was explained then, but simply take note of what's happened since then.

.

For one thing, people can, and should read Duane Tudahl's remarkable books. They will see that while Duane was very careful not to explicitely confirm nor deny any frankensteining (neither in the books nor anywhere online as far as I know), the recording process and sessions order described in the books speak for themselves. Certainly, we've learned from these same books than many more cassette mixes were made than we initially thought, with songs being tinkered with over and over. So after all, why not these Original mixes? Could I have been wrong? (Honestly, that was my first hope, because I wanted to be wrong, I really wish there had been no frankensteining.) Unfortunately, nothing in the books suggests that any of the most suspiscious mixes was ever made.

.

But more importantly, there was also a Niko Bolas interview about Originals (it was the Peach and Black podcast IIRC) where (ooops!) Bolas himself said that some of the mixes were made and edited in order to try and recreate the released versions, not the Prince demos as he left them. The interviewers were nice enough to not confront him any further about this, but it was a clear, if indirect, admission of the fact that Mr. Howe's repeated statements about "recreating the material exactly as we found it" were BS.

.

All I can say is that thanks to the shitstorm me, Neversin and a few others started (as well as all the people who supported us about it back then), Mr. Howe apparently took notice (he was even asked about it in a few interviews) and, funnily enough, save for a very few details that seem to have more to do with negligence than pure malevolence, all of a sudden, there appeared to be no more frankensteining whatsoever on later Estate rereleases, with Niko Bolas recreating mixes that appeared to have been as faithful to the originals as possible, or close.

.

So it appears the shitstorm wasn't in vain. And while I'm disappointed with Mr. Howe not just coming clear about it and admitting he made an error of judgment on Originals instead of maintaining the "we didn't touch a thing" narrative (the best of us make mistakes, and the community would have appreciated his honesty and easily forgiven the incident), I'm very grateful that he apparently took notice and accepted the fact that this wasn't the way to do things, because the fans know better.

.

Those who defend the Estate on that one should realize that none of us who made a fuss about this were doing it because we had a grudge against Mr. Howe or the Estate. We did it because we want Prince's material to be released as he left it, without any editorial intereference, in order to avoid a Michael Jackson situation. And even if we had been wrong, it came from a good place, out of respect for Prince's legacy, and nothing else yes

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #13 posted 09/19/21 1:25pm

TheEnglishGent

avatar

databank said:

.

Those who defend the Estate on that one should realize that none of us who made a fuss about this were doing it because we had a grudge against Mr. Howe or the Estate. We did it because we want Prince's material to be released as he left it, without any editorial intereference, in order to avoid a Michael Jackson situation. And even if we had been wrong, it came from a good place, out of respect for Prince's legacy, and nothing else yes


I think ultimately, this is what we all want and I do appreciate those who are more passionate about it than I am. I hope my position hasn't ever come accross as defending the estate, I've always tried to come at it trying to play devil's advocate with the, we don't know 100% what is in the vault, position.

The biggest problem is the lack of information. If they just said, we only had x, so we did y, then people would be more understanding. Of course, they should then release x alongside it too.

RIP sad
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Reply #14 posted 09/19/21 1:44pm

LoveGalore

databank said:

I started denouncing the frankensteining thing alongside Neversin, and that was even before Originals: as early as NC2U in 2018, I came here to say something was fishy about that mix. And already before that, some other people -I forgot who it was, but I thank them for that- had taken notice of the fact that there was already something fishy about Our Destiny/Roadhouse Gardens in 2017.


.


Contrarily to what some people like to claim to try and discredit us, the reference mixes in circulation (either widely or among "elite" traders) were not, and far from being the single reason why we realized something was wrong there. Admitedly, since we didn't have access to the vault, all the evidence was circumstantial, but there was a lot of it.


.


Now, people will believe what they want. The point was made back then, lengthy explainations were given and, frankly, I'm tired of this Internet thing where you have to come back on a message board or on social media and explain the same things in lengthy details over and over again, ad nauseum. Those who weren't convinced then won't be convinced now. Those who weren't there then can do some research in past threads. So I won't re-explain everything that what was explained then, but simply take note of what's happened since then.


.


For one thing, people can, and should read Duane Tudahl's remarkable books. They will see that while Duane was very careful not to explicitely confirm nor deny any frankensteining (neither in the books nor anywhere online as far as I know), the recording process and sessions order described in the books speak for themselves. Certainly, we've learned from these same books than many more cassette mixes were made than we initially thought, with songs being tinkered with over and over. So after all, why not these Original mixes? Could I have been wrong? (Honestly, that was my first hope, because I wanted to be wrong, I really wish there had been no frankensteining.) Unfortunately, nothing in the books suggests that any of the most suspiscious mixes was ever made.


.


But more importantly, there was also a Niko Bolas interview about Originals (it was the Peach and Black podcast IIRC) where (ooops!) Bolas himself said that some of the mixes were made and edited in order to try and recreate the released versions, not the Prince demos as he left them. The interviewers were nice enough to not confront him any further about this, but it was a clear, if indirect, admission of the fact that Mr. Howe's repeated statements about "recreating the material exactly as we found it" were BS.


.


All I can say is that thanks to the shitstorm me, Neversin and a few others started (as well as all the people who supported us about it back then), Mr. Howe apparently took notice (he was even asked about it in a few interviews) and, funnily enough, save for a very few details that seem to have more to do with negligence than pure malevolence, all of a sudden, there appeared to be no more frankensteining whatsoever on later Estate rereleases, with Niko Bolas recreating mixes that appeared to have been as faithful to the originals as possible, or close.


.


So it appears the shitstorm wasn't in vain. And while I'm disappointed with Mr. Howe not just coming clear about it and admitting he made an error of judgment on Originals instead of maintaining the "we didn't touch a thing" narrative (the best of us make mistakes, and the community would have appreciated his honesty and easily forgiven the incident), I'm very grateful that he apparently took notice and accepted the fact that this wasn't the way to do things, because the fans know better.


.


Those who defend the Estate on that one should realize that none of us who made a fuss about this were doing it because we had a grudge against Mr. Howe or the Estate. We did it because we want Prince's material to be released as he left it, without any editorial intereference, in order to avoid a Michael Jackson situation. And even if we had been wrong, it came from a good place, out of respect for Prince's legacy, and nothing else yes



Howe has said recreating the mixes as they found them. He didn't say anything about the edits.
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Reply #15 posted 09/19/21 1:50pm

databank

avatar

TheEnglishGent said:

databank said:

.

Those who defend the Estate on that one should realize that none of us who made a fuss about this were doing it because we had a grudge against Mr. Howe or the Estate. We did it because we want Prince's material to be released as he left it, without any editorial intereference, in order to avoid a Michael Jackson situation. And even if we had been wrong, it came from a good place, out of respect for Prince's legacy, and nothing else yes


I think ultimately, this is what we all want and I do appreciate those who are more passionate about it than I am. I hope my position hasn't ever come accross as defending the estate, I've always tried to come at it trying to play devil's advocate with the, we don't know 100% what is in the vault, position.

The biggest problem is the lack of information. If they just said, we only had x, so we did y, then people would be more understanding. Of course, they should then release x alongside it too.

We're cool, no worries hug

.

I wasn't denouncing anyone in particular, just saying that things have been explained thoroughly before, and that whomever pretends not to know how we know what we know is either misinformed or has an agenda. It's not my place to tell who's who (even if I knew, which I don't).

.

Certainly, all this nonsense about NDA's and all that secrecy aren't helping building a trustful relationship between the Estate and the fandom. Besides, I totally fail to understand how this is good for the Estate as a business (it even seems counterproductive with an artist like Prince, who certainly has one of the most nitpicking and details obsessed fanbases in the world).

.

The only messages it sends is "we have things to hide" and "we don't care about academic research and Prince's legacy". That said, Mr. Howe himself had to sign a NDA, so he cannot be blamed for that. Could it just be Comerica taking a default, standard legal precaution, without even knowing why they're doing it or how it's specifically useful to the business at hand? Sheer corporate absurdity?

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #16 posted 09/19/21 1:54pm

databank

avatar

LoveGalore said:

databank said:

I started denouncing the frankensteining thing alongside Neversin, and that was even before Originals: as early as NC2U in 2018, I came here to say something was fishy about that mix. And already before that, some other people -I forgot who it was, but I thank them for that- had taken notice of the fact that there was already something fishy about Our Destiny/Roadhouse Gardens in 2017.

.

Contrarily to what some people like to claim to try and discredit us, the reference mixes in circulation (either widely or among "elite" traders) were not, and far from being the single reason why we realized something was wrong there. Admitedly, since we didn't have access to the vault, all the evidence was circumstantial, but there was a lot of it.

.

Now, people will believe what they want. The point was made back then, lengthy explainations were given and, frankly, I'm tired of this Internet thing where you have to come back on a message board or on social media and explain the same things in lengthy details over and over again, ad nauseum. Those who weren't convinced then won't be convinced now. Those who weren't there then can do some research in past threads. So I won't re-explain everything that what was explained then, but simply take note of what's happened since then.

.

For one thing, people can, and should read Duane Tudahl's remarkable books. They will see that while Duane was very careful not to explicitely confirm nor deny any frankensteining (neither in the books nor anywhere online as far as I know), the recording process and sessions order described in the books speak for themselves. Certainly, we've learned from these same books than many more cassette mixes were made than we initially thought, with songs being tinkered with over and over. So after all, why not these Original mixes? Could I have been wrong? (Honestly, that was my first hope, because I wanted to be wrong, I really wish there had been no frankensteining.) Unfortunately, nothing in the books suggests that any of the most suspiscious mixes was ever made.

.

But more importantly, there was also a Niko Bolas interview about Originals (it was the Peach and Black podcast IIRC) where (ooops!) Bolas himself said that some of the mixes were made and edited in order to try and recreate the released versions, not the Prince demos as he left them. The interviewers were nice enough to not confront him any further about this, but it was a clear, if indirect, admission of the fact that Mr. Howe's repeated statements about "recreating the material exactly as we found it" were BS.

.

All I can say is that thanks to the shitstorm me, Neversin and a few others started (as well as all the people who supported us about it back then), Mr. Howe apparently took notice (he was even asked about it in a few interviews) and, funnily enough, save for a very few details that seem to have more to do with negligence than pure malevolence, all of a sudden, there appeared to be no more frankensteining whatsoever on later Estate rereleases, with Niko Bolas recreating mixes that appeared to have been as faithful to the originals as possible, or close.

.

So it appears the shitstorm wasn't in vain. And while I'm disappointed with Mr. Howe not just coming clear about it and admitting he made an error of judgment on Originals instead of maintaining the "we didn't touch a thing" narrative (the best of us make mistakes, and the community would have appreciated his honesty and easily forgiven the incident), I'm very grateful that he apparently took notice and accepted the fact that this wasn't the way to do things, because the fans know better.

.

Those who defend the Estate on that one should realize that none of us who made a fuss about this were doing it because we had a grudge against Mr. Howe or the Estate. We did it because we want Prince's material to be released as he left it, without any editorial intereference, in order to avoid a Michael Jackson situation. And even if we had been wrong, it came from a good place, out of respect for Prince's legacy, and nothing else yes

Howe has said recreating the mixes as they found them. He didn't say anything about the edits.

I sincerely fail to see what difference it makes, but whatever. I'm not gonna debate this any further. I believe I made my point and I really have nothing to add to what I already wrote. People are free to do what they want with it hug

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #17 posted 09/19/21 5:35pm

FunkyStrange

avatar

databank said:

But more importantly, there was also a Niko Bolas interview about Originals (it was the Peach and Black podcast IIRC) where (ooops!) Bolas himself said that some of the mixes were made and edited in order to try and recreate the released versions, not the Prince demos as he left them. The interviewers were nice enough to not confront him any further about this, but it was a clear, if indirect, admission of the fact that Mr. Howe's repeated statements about "recreating the material exactly as we found it" were BS.

.

That was precisely what I was trying to get out of him with some carefully worded questions

.

hard to believe been on the org for over 20 years now!
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Reply #18 posted 09/20/21 12:47am

JorisE73

TheEnglishGent said:

Just because a collector has something, that doesn't mean that exact same version exists on masters in the vault. A lot of these come from people sharing what they had and that might not have even been a finished version that Prince would want to release. A good example is Witness 4 The Prosecution, where V1 was released recently. People said this wasn't V1 because we have an earlier version on bootleg. But that earlier 'version' was a work in progress and not intended as a complete version of the song. An assosciate shared/someon stole it, before further parts were put on it.


I always love to read when Neversin or whoever has some input on a song because the history is interesting. But just becuase he has or has heard X, doesn't mean that exact version exists in the vault today.



Prince was said to reuse tapes and even had some 'destroyd' or erased and then to think these lost recording are maybe now only in the hands of people like neversin is worrysome.
Neversin explained the whole 'Witness' versioning thing when people were claiming the released SOTT SDE version wasn't version #1.
He also did a much lengthier write up on Originals with details on each track (he also did this for 1999 SDE, SOTT SDE and W2A) that he refuses to post to us but only shares woth a select few because of teh backlash and insults from people (a lot from people in here).

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Reply #19 posted 09/20/21 7:58am

databank

avatar

FunkyStrange said:

databank said:

But more importantly, there was also a Niko Bolas interview about Originals (it was the Peach and Black podcast IIRC) where (ooops!) Bolas himself said that some of the mixes were made and edited in order to try and recreate the released versions, not the Prince demos as he left them. The interviewers were nice enough to not confront him any further about this, but it was a clear, if indirect, admission of the fact that Mr. Howe's repeated statements about "recreating the material exactly as we found it" were BS.

.

That was precisely what I was trying to get out of him with some carefully worded questions

.

Oh, I never knew you were one of the P&B team.

.

Well, thanks a lot for asking Niko Bolas that question, it helped clear things out a lot nod

.

And thx for the great job in general - I hope y'all get to do more interviews in the future yes hug

[Edited 9/20/21 7:59am]

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #20 posted 09/20/21 8:15am

databank

avatar

JorisE73 said:

TheEnglishGent said:

Just because a collector has something, that doesn't mean that exact same version exists on masters in the vault. A lot of these come from people sharing what they had and that might not have even been a finished version that Prince would want to release. A good example is Witness 4 The Prosecution, where V1 was released recently. People said this wasn't V1 because we have an earlier version on bootleg. But that earlier 'version' was a work in progress and not intended as a complete version of the song. An assosciate shared/someon stole it, before further parts were put on it.


I always love to read when Neversin or whoever has some input on a song because the history is interesting. But just becuase he has or has heard X, doesn't mean that exact version exists in the vault today.



Prince was said to reuse tapes and even had some 'destroyd' or erased and then to think these lost recording are maybe now only in the hands of people like neversin is worrysome.
Neversin explained the whole 'Witness' versioning thing when people were claiming the released SOTT SDE version wasn't version #1.
He also did a much lengthier write up on Originals with details on each track (he also did this for 1999 SDE, SOTT SDE and W2A) that he refuses to post to us but only shares woth a select few because of teh backlash and insults from people (a lot from people in here).

Neversin is someone whose contributions were always interesting and useful. Many good people were lost to the community because of that kind of BS. And quite a few Prince associates were also deterred from interacting with us for the same reasons.

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Reply #21 posted 09/20/21 10:20am

TheEnglishGent

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databank said:

JorisE73 said:



Prince was said to reuse tapes and even had some 'destroyd' or erased and then to think these lost recording are maybe now only in the hands of people like neversin is worrysome.
Neversin explained the whole 'Witness' versioning thing when people were claiming the released SOTT SDE version wasn't version #1.
He also did a much lengthier write up on Originals with details on each track (he also did this for 1999 SDE, SOTT SDE and W2A) that he refuses to post to us but only shares woth a select few because of teh backlash and insults from people (a lot from people in here).

Neversin is someone whose contributions were always interesting and useful. Many good people were lost to the community because of that kind of BS. And quite a few Prince associates were also deterred from interacting with us for the same reasons.

It is certainly a shame. People getting frustrated with Neversin and the elite collectors for not releasing their stuff. Neversin getting frustrated with the estate for not releasing their stuff. If everyone just released all their stuffs we wouldn't have any more arguments biggrin .

RIP sad
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Reply #22 posted 09/20/21 11:04am

databank

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TheEnglishGent said:

databank said:

Neversin is someone whose contributions were always interesting and useful. Many good people were lost to the community because of that kind of BS. And quite a few Prince associates were also deterred from interacting with us for the same reasons.

It is certainly a shame. People getting frustrated with Neversin and the elite collectors for not releasing their stuff. Neversin getting frustrated with the estate for not releasing their stuff. If everyone just released all their stuffs we wouldn't have any more arguments biggrin .

I never understood why anyone would be upset at "elite" collectors for not releasing their stuff. For one thing, they don't owe anyone anything. For another, I know from the few times I was entrusted with things that you don't want to just piss at the face of the people who entrusted you by betraying their trust (not to mention that after that, you're burnt and no one will ever entrust you with anything). Now I'm not saying they shouldn't leak things if they're in a position to do it and feel like it. I'm grateful when they do it. But to be in a position to do it, you better be sure you're not betraying anyone's trust, and given how these things are obtained, it's a little complicated.

.

[Edited 9/20/21 11:05am]

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Reply #23 posted 09/20/21 12:32pm

lurker316

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databank said:

TheEnglishGent said:

It is certainly a shame. People getting frustrated with Neversin and the elite collectors for not releasing their stuff. Neversin getting frustrated with the estate for not releasing their stuff. If everyone just released all their stuffs we wouldn't have any more arguments biggrin .

I never understood why anyone would be upset at "elite" collectors for not releasing their stuff. For one thing, they don't owe anyone anything. For another, I know from the few times I was entrusted with things that you don't want to just piss at the face of the people who entrusted you by betraying their trust (not to mention that after that, you're burnt and no one will ever entrust you with anything). Now I'm not saying they shouldn't leak things if they're in a position to do it and feel like it. I'm grateful when they do it. But to be in a position to do it, you better be sure you're not betraying anyone's trust, and given how these things are obtained, it's a little complicated.

.

[Edited 9/20/21 11:05am]


I understand when they withhold stuff to keep someone's trust. That's obviously completely reasonable. But I've come across a few who withhold stuff to preserve its value, and that bothers me. The only person who should have profitted off of Prince's work was Prince. The value to us fans is in listening to the songs.




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Reply #24 posted 09/20/21 12:50pm

scififilmnerd

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TrivialPursuit said:

lurker316 said:

From @Scififilmnerd's website:


Originals, 2018-2019
Nothing Compares 2 U (4:40)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with The Family version
Sex Shooter (3:06)* - previously released, edit of #2
Manic Monday (2:51)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with Apollonia 6 version
100 MPH (3:31)* - previously released, slight edit of #2 without full intro
You’re My Love (4:24)* - fade-out edit of #1
Holly Rock (6:39)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with Sheila E. version
Baby, You’re A Trip (5:51)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with Jill Jones version
The Glamorous Life (4:12)* -previously released, edit of #2
Gigolos Get Lonely Too (4:41)* - previously released, edit of #1
Dear Michaelangelo (5:22)* - previously released, Prince vocal version mixed with Eddie M sax from Sheila E. version
Wouldn’t You Love To Love Me? (5:56)* – previously released, fade-out edit of #4
Nothing Compares 2 U (Cinematic Mix) (4;23)*


https://chronologicalprincerecordingsindex.blogspot.com/2020/11/frankenstein-mixes-work-done-to-princes.html


But how does he know that?



Neversin. wink I always pay attention when he speaks. biggrin

[Edited 9/20/21 12:58pm]

rainbow woot! FREE THE 29 MAY 1993 COME CONFIGURATION! woot! rainbow
rainbow woot! FREE THE 1994 CHAOS AND DISORDER CONFIGURATION woot! rainbow
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Reply #25 posted 09/20/21 1:34pm

TrivialPursuit

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scififilmnerd said:

Neversin. wink I always pay attention when he speaks. biggrin


And I'm not saying he's a liar or anything. I'm just about finding out the source of something. Where's the chain of information, how many generations into "he said, she said" are we when we find something out? That sorta thing.

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #26 posted 09/20/21 1:37pm

databank

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lurker316 said:

databank said:

I never understood why anyone would be upset at "elite" collectors for not releasing their stuff. For one thing, they don't owe anyone anything. For another, I know from the few times I was entrusted with things that you don't want to just piss at the face of the people who entrusted you by betraying their trust (not to mention that after that, you're burnt and no one will ever entrust you with anything). Now I'm not saying they shouldn't leak things if they're in a position to do it and feel like it. I'm grateful when they do it. But to be in a position to do it, you better be sure you're not betraying anyone's trust, and given how these things are obtained, it's a little complicated.

.

[Edited 9/20/21 11:05am]


I understand when they withhold stuff to keep someone's trust. That's obviously completely reasonable. But I've come across a few who withhold stuff to preserve its value, and that bothers me. The only person who should have profitted off of Prince's work was Prince. The value to us fans is in listening to the songs.




Either way, it's one's prerogative to do what one wants with what one obtained by their own means.

.

Besides, trading value isn't the same as selling the stuff to bootlegger for monetary value, and most of the traders I've met or heard of were after trading value, so they could get more stuff. And getting as much stuff as possible was always the point, wasn't it? I can totally understand that. Because again, as with breaking trust, you may end-up in a situation where you're not in a capacity to obtain more material, and you're back to zero.

.

And on the other hand, those who sell their stuff to bootleggers make money over stolen goods (and, often, other people's trust), which is so totally wrong, yet they indirectly help everyone get the stuff in the end. So in a way everyone should be grateful for them doing something wrong. It's a super complicated matter.

.

Now don't get me wrong: kudos to those who were in a position to leak stuff for free without betraying anyone's trust, and did it despite getting a shitstorm from other traders who wanted the things to keep their trading value. It was generous, but it was their prerogative, not their duty.

.

+ anyway, at some level and whatever you do, you're never completely sure you're not gonna put someone in trouble by doing it, because even if it's old stuff, it could always be traced to the person who originally had it from Prince's camp.

.

So I find it hard to judge, and clearly most of those people who give shit to traders are usually those who never had uncirculating stuff in their own hands, with the responsibility to decide what to do with it depending on how they obtained it, and potentially face the consequences.

.

I remember once, just because I'd mentioned that I was lucky enough to have been entrusted with some uncirculating stuff by some nice people, someone began to give me shit in front of everyone. That person, whomever it was (I don't recall) had no fucking clue what they were talking about, they didn't know me nor the circumstances, and they'd have been better off shutting their trap.

.

Besides, that kind of aggressive behavior certainly doesn't make one a better person than the "evil" traders they denounce so vividly.

.

So I totally understand Neversin being pissed. He never bragged about having stuff, and he kindly shared a lot of good info with everyone.

.

[Edited 9/20/21 13:39pm]

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Reply #27 posted 09/20/21 3:59pm

LoveGalore

The problem with Neversin is that he became the Bart of uncirculated info. So there would be this wealth of knowledge gated behind dickish threats and other weird rumination. Sure maybe that developed over 20 years of dealing with asshole fans but come the fuck on.
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Reply #28 posted 09/21/21 1:21am

JorisE73

LoveGalore said:

The problem with Neversin is that he became the Bart of uncirculated info. So there would be this wealth of knowledge gated behind dickish threats and other weird rumination. Sure maybe that developed over 20 years of dealing with asshole fans but come the fuck on.

Make that almost 30 years now. And honestly most fans are dicks whenever he posts something.
The last time he posted something here and quickly erased it bacause it was for someone in private and apparently again people started to insult him or weirdly get angry with him, so I get his stance. I also find it annoying that he doesn't post here anymore or left here (and sporadically he posts at another public place with great info and it seems whenever someone gets assholey with him there they are kicked by the owner) but apparently he has his own place somewhere where he posts a lot of things to his connections and maybe a handful of 'outside' people who found him there.
I'll probably never hear the material he has and it's frustrating but it is what it is and I've accepted that.
Getting frustrated or even angry and insult him whenever posts some unknow info it's a bit like reading Uptown's The Vault for the first time and then getting angry and frustrated with the people who wrote that book to share info. lol

[Edited 9/21/21 1:28am]

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Reply #29 posted 09/23/21 6:35am

JoeyCococo

Although Neversin is and has been a reliable pillar, I can not see how even the most knowledgeable'fan' can know more than those with access to the vault itself! Niko said, from what I understood, that they used the masters to mix down to whatever cassette copies they had.... meaning, they tried to replicate the mix Prince left.

Whatever I love what they have done this far.
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