independent and unofficial
Prince fan community
Welcome! Sign up or enter username and password to remember me
Forum jump
Forums > Prince: Music and More > How much of "Originals" was frankensteined?
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Page 2 of 3 <123>
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
Reply #30 posted 09/23/21 7:05am

paisleypark4

avatar

JoeyCococo said:

Although Neversin is and has been a reliable pillar, I can not see how even the most knowledgeable'fan' can know more than those with access to the vault itself! Niko said, from what I understood, that they used the masters to mix down to whatever cassette copies they had.... meaning, they tried to replicate the mix Prince left. Whatever I love what they have done this far.

Exactly.

I also like what they did. Al though...I would have taken the full intro of 100 MPH that was the same on Mazarati's album but the rest were fine

Straight Jacket Funk Affair
Album plays and love for vinyl records.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #31 posted 09/23/21 3:47pm

bluegangsta

avatar

JoeyCococo said:

Niko said, from what I understood, that they used the masters to mix down to whatever cassette copies they had.... meaning, they tried to replicate the mix Prince left.

Prince and co did not use mono reverb and hard pan instruments. Why is it just the songs Niko has touched that sound very different to what Prince's released and unreleased material?

If he tried to replicate the mix Prince left, he did an awful job.

Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #32 posted 09/24/21 2:08am

JorisE73

There's a difference between a real original completed prince demo or version and a tape he left with some mix he did on day whatever.
It was explained that the mixes we hear on Originals were work-in-progress versions already for the artists he was working it for and obviously he copied those mixes to tape to listen to at the end of the day or whenever.
For example Baby You're a Trip contains Jill's vocals that she recorded not for Prince's completed version but when it was already decided that she would record the song. Prince's solo version was apparently considered by him for release, so that version would have been a true 'Original' that should have been on Originals (this was also the case for Manic Monday and probably more on there)

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #33 posted 09/24/21 2:59am

Marco81

JorisE73 said:

For example Baby You're a Trip contains Jill's vocals that she recorded not for Prince's completed version but when it was already decided that she would record the song.

And how would you know her vocals were not recorded in 1982?

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #34 posted 09/24/21 3:37am

BartVanHemelen

avatar

TheEnglishGent said:

The biggest problem is the lack of information. If they just said, we only had x, so we did y, then people would be more understanding. Of course, they should then release x alongside it too.

.

And yet, even on the SOTT SDE, they released that atrocious hack job they did with Rebirth Of The Flesh.

.

And judging from some of the interviews, W2A isn't "a complete album as left by Prince", but there were many editorial decisions taken -- including apparently Kirk Johnson vetoing the inclusion of Cause & Effect and Morris Hayes recommending a different mix for at least oen track than originally planned -- and yet this info only comes out via some podcast interview etc. instead of being detailed in the liner notes.

.

Far too often we get sold a fairy tale, when what we want and deserve is a truthful accounting. IIRC Howe has said that for at least one song on the 1999 SDE they couldn't find an isolated Prince vocal and thus they ripped one from cassette and used software to isolate it and used that vocal in a new mix -- yet he didn't specify which song, so we still have to guess.

.

Should they include the "cassette originals" as a bonus CD so we can compare ourselves those with the "recreated" mixes they made? IMHO: yes. I'd love to get a sort-of documentary where they use cassette mixes to explain the evolution of a song, but considering that they barely acknowledge there being multiple mixes in the vault I'm not holding my breath.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #35 posted 09/24/21 5:31am

JorisE73

Marco81 said:

JorisE73 said:

For example Baby You're a Trip contains Jill's vocals that she recorded not for Prince's completed version but when it was already decided that she would record the song.

And how would you know her vocals were not recorded in 1982?


because the guy who has the complete recording without Jill and the recording log for her parts said so.
But that's not the point, it's not important in what year it was recorded. The point is is that Prince decided not to release his completed solo version on whatever album it was scheduled for and gave it to Jill to record and that is when she recorded her parts.

[Edited 9/24/21 5:43am]

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #36 posted 09/24/21 3:58pm

databank

avatar

BartVanHemelen said:

TheEnglishGent said:

The biggest problem is the lack of information. If they just said, we only had x, so we did y, then people would be more understanding. Of course, they should then release x alongside it too.

.

And yet, even on the SOTT SDE, they released that atrocious hack job they did with Rebirth Of The Flesh.

.

And judging from some of the interviews, W2A isn't "a complete album as left by Prince", but there were many editorial decisions taken -- including apparently Kirk Johnson vetoing the inclusion of Cause & Effect and Morris Hayes recommending a different mix for at least oen track than originally planned -- and yet this info only comes out via some podcast interview etc. instead of being detailed in the liner notes.

Having listened to none of these interviews yet, I was totally unaware of that. The new mixes thing is truly problematic if mixes were already available (did they say which songs exactly were remixed?), and I thought C&E had been removed by prince at the time. Now, the question is, then: was there any complete configuration left by Prince, or merely written tracklists?

.

Far too often we get sold a fairy tale, when what we want and deserve is a truthful accounting. IIRC Howe has said that for at least one song on the 1999 SDE they couldn't find an isolated Prince vocal and thus they ripped one from cassette and used software to isolate it and used that vocal in a new mix -- yet he didn't specify which song, so we still have to guess.

Oh, that was new to me, too. I must admit that beyond what was said here when I got to read it, I didn't look into 1999, SOTT and W2A in details, nor did I ask Neversin about it. I was pissed anyway, and I can hardly enjoy listening to Originals because of all that BS, so I kind of kept postponing investigating the rest in details, so not to get even more upset: the job just seemed way more faithful altogether (we had cassette references for some of the stuff on bootlegs for comparison), and at least we mostly got real mixes (not posthumous) on SOTT... and, I thought, W2A... So now I'm pissed at that album, too!!!!.

.

Should they include the "cassette originals" as a bonus CD so we can compare ourselves those with the "recreated" mixes they made? IMHO: yes.

I've been asking for that from the beginning, and I co-sign. Hopefully they'll do it one day.

.

I'd love to get a sort-of documentary where they use cassette mixes to explain the evolution of a song, but considering that they barely acknowledge there being multiple mixes in the vault I'm not holding my breath.

Me neither, though sad

[Edited 9/24/21 16:09pm]

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...scography/
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #37 posted 09/24/21 4:01pm

databank

avatar

bluegangsta said:

JoeyCococo said:

Niko said, from what I understood, that they used the masters to mix down to whatever cassette copies they had.... meaning, they tried to replicate the mix Prince left.

Prince and co did not use mono reverb and hard pan instruments. Why is it just the songs Niko has touched that sound very different to what Prince's released and unreleased material?

If he tried to replicate the mix Prince left, he did an awful job.

Not sure if a Prince engineer from, say, 2010, would have done a better job at recreating these old mixes, but I never understood why they'd ask a guy who -of his own admission- knew nothing about Prince instead of one of Prince's many engineers (not all of them are retired). I know Niko Bolas is a highly respected professional, but still...

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...scography/
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #38 posted 09/24/21 4:14pm

databank

avatar

databank said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

And yet, even on the SOTT SDE, they released that atrocious hack job they did with Rebirth Of The Flesh.

.

And judging from some of the interviews, W2A isn't "a complete album as left by Prince", but there were many editorial decisions taken -- including apparently Kirk Johnson vetoing the inclusion of Cause & Effect and Morris Hayes recommending a different mix for at least oen track than originally planned -- and yet this info only comes out via some podcast interview etc. instead of being detailed in the liner notes.

Having listened to none of these interviews yet, I was totally unaware of that. The new mixes thing is truly problematic if mixes were already available (did they say which songs exactly were remixed?), and I thought C&E had been removed by prince at the time. Now, the question is, then: was there any complete configuration left by Prince, or merely written tracklists?

.

Far too often we get sold a fairy tale, when what we want and deserve is a truthful accounting. IIRC Howe has said that for at least one song on the 1999 SDE they couldn't find an isolated Prince vocal and thus they ripped one from cassette and used software to isolate it and used that vocal in a new mix -- yet he didn't specify which song, so we still have to guess.

Oh, that was new to me, too. I must admit that beyond what was said here when I got to read it, I didn't look into 1999, SOTT and W2A in details, nor did I ask Neversin about it. I was pissed anyway, and I can hardly enjoy listening to Originals because of all that BS, so I kind of kept postponing investigating the rest in details, so not to get even more upset: the job just seemed way more faithful altogether (we had cassette references for some of the stuff on bootlegs for comparison), and at least we mostly got real mixes (not posthumous) on SOTT... and, I thought, W2A... So now I'm pissed at that album, too!!!!.

.

Should they include the "cassette originals" as a bonus CD so we can compare ourselves those with the "recreated" mixes they made? IMHO: yes.

I've been asking for that from the beginning, and I co-sign. Hopefully they'll do it one day.

.

I'd love to get a sort-of documentary where they use cassette mixes to explain the evolution of a song, but considering that they barely acknowledge there being multiple mixes in the vault I'm not holding my breath.

Me neither, though sad

[Edited 9/24/21 16:09pm]

Oh yeah, shit, it's even on Princevault: "The released version was built from three reference CDs found by The Prince Estate in 2019, each containing different configurations of the album. Morris Hayes was commissioned to build the final tracklist from these three cds. The official version is similar to one of the configuration which also included Cause And Effect. It was decided not to retain this song for the final version because it was attached to the 20Ten album (Prince quotes titles from this album in the lyrics)."

.

Well, fuck them is all I have to say, they're clearly incapable of doing anything right. And don't buy their products if you can avoid it. None of this BS is worth your hard earned $$$.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...scography/
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #39 posted 09/24/21 4:32pm

Revolution81

avatar

databank said:

databank said:

[Edited 9/24/21 16:09pm]

Oh yeah, shit, it's even on Princevault: "The released version was built from three reference CDs found by The Prince Estate in 2019, each containing different configurations of the album. Morris Hayes was commissioned to build the final tracklist from these three cds. The official version is similar to one of the configuration which also included Cause And Effect. It was decided not to retain this song for the final version because it was attached to the 20Ten album (Prince quotes titles from this album in the lyrics)."

.

Well, fuck them is all I have to say, they're clearly incapable of doing anything right. And don't buy their products if you can avoid it. None of this BS is worth your hard earned $$$.

-

You'll get called names on here for saying stuff like that lol. You MUST buy their products otherwise we might not get more BS in the future...

Pretty much since PR deluxe its been like a pre-requisite for people involved to have to spout fairytales and lies. Like some dodgy salesmen with little passion for the product

What's the use in half a story, half a dream
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #40 posted 09/24/21 4:41pm

databank

avatar

Revolution81 said:

databank said:

Oh yeah, shit, it's even on Princevault: "The released version was built from three reference CDs found by The Prince Estate in 2019, each containing different configurations of the album. Morris Hayes was commissioned to build the final tracklist from these three cds. The official version is similar to one of the configuration which also included Cause And Effect. It was decided not to retain this song for the final version because it was attached to the 20Ten album (Prince quotes titles from this album in the lyrics)."

.

Well, fuck them is all I have to say, they're clearly incapable of doing anything right. And don't buy their products if you can avoid it. None of this BS is worth your hard earned $$$.

-

You'll get called names on here for saying stuff like that lol. You MUST buy their products otherwise we might not get more BS in the future...

Pretty much since PR deluxe its been like a pre-requisite for people involved to have to spout fairytales and lies. Like some dodgy salesmen with little passion for the product

I know, mate, I know, but let them call me names if they will... If we're gonna get crap like that, it's all the same to me if we don't get nothing at all. I already have a massive Prince collection to enjoy, and thousands of other records by other artists, I'm good. What pisses me off is P's legacy being toyed with and the lack of legitimacy of these posthumous releases. There wasn't one without a problem of some sort, going back all the way to 4ever in 2016!! Not one.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...scography/
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #41 posted 09/24/21 4:46pm

Revolution81

avatar

As for how much of originals is franknsteined, most of it is the answer, anyone familiar with Princes music can tell that just by listening to it

What's the use in half a story, half a dream
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #42 posted 09/24/21 7:16pm

TrivialPursuit

avatar

Revolution81 said:

As for how much of originals is franknsteined, most of it is the answer, anyone familiar with Princes music can tell that just by listening to it


I also suppose another question arises from that: Do we want the original cuts he did, even if they were incomplete, or do we want something that is more cohesive, and reminds us of the released version (by whatever artist).

I think sometimes Prince fans forget that we're not the only ones buying this music. These things are targeted for the general public, not the fanbase. The general public knew how prolific he was, and hearing "Oh, wow, that's a Prince song?" all the time.

So, these put-together versions are sorta what is maybe a necessary evil for the general public. It's more about hearing Prince's voice on these songs, and as much of the original demo/cut as possible. It's not about being a purist or completest, like a lot of Prince fans. We wish it was, but in the bigger scheme, it's not feasible.

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #43 posted 09/24/21 8:30pm

databank

avatar

TrivialPursuit said:

Revolution81 said:

As for how much of originals is franknsteined, most of it is the answer, anyone familiar with Princes music can tell that just by listening to it


I also suppose another question arises from that: Do we want the original cuts he did, even if they were incomplete, or do we want something that is more cohesive, and reminds us of the released version (by whatever artist).

I think sometimes Prince fans forget that we're not the only ones buying this music. These things are targeted for the general public, not the fanbase. The general public knew how prolific he was, and hearing "Oh, wow, that's a Prince song?" all the time.

So, these put-together versions are sorta what is maybe a necessary evil for the general public. It's more about hearing Prince's voice on these songs, and as much of the original demo/cut as possible. It's not about being a purist or completest, like a lot of Prince fans. We wish it was, but in the bigger scheme, it's not feasible.

This has been said before, and that may be the reasoning they've had,but I don't care for it.

.

For one thing, I doubt those "improvements" (if you choose to call them like this) or "embellishments" are of a radical enough nature to make any difference in the ears of most people. Let alone those who are sufficiently interested in, and familiar with Prince to listen to archive records instead of his classic albums and greatest hits compilations.

.

Then it all depends whether your perspective is:

.

- Making as much money as possible by any means necessary and/or satisfying the taste of an illiterate audience that wishes to be entertained, with no interest in what it's being entertained with. Going that path, why stop there? Wouldn't an Extraloveable (minus naughty lyrics) duet between Prince and Justin Timberlake (produced by Pharrell) be even more radio(friendly?

.

or:

.

- Presenting the archives of an artist who was one of the most influential of his time, who released a massive and, for a good part, critically acclaimed and commercially successful catalogue in his lifetime, that is enough to appeal to mass audiences. Working with History in mind. Trusting the music to speak for itself as it is, and the audience to be litterate or interested enough to appreciate it for what it is: a historical document, not Justin Bieber's last Top 10 hit.

.

That shit is more political than it looks, and at some point, you have to take a stand.

.

[Edited 9/24/21 21:51pm]

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...scography/
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #44 posted 09/25/21 12:06am

BartVanHemelen

avatar

databank said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

And yet, even on the SOTT SDE, they released that atrocious hack job they did with Rebirth Of The Flesh.

.

And judging from some of the interviews, W2A isn't "a complete album as left by Prince", but there were many editorial decisions taken -- including apparently Kirk Johnson vetoing the inclusion of Cause & Effect and Morris Hayes recommending a different mix for at least oen track than originally planned -- and yet this info only comes out via some podcast interview etc. instead of being detailed in the liner notes.

Having listened to none of these interviews yet, I was totally unaware of that. The new mixes thing is truly problematic if mixes were already available (did they say which songs exactly were remixed?), and I thought C&E had been removed by prince at the time. Now, the question is, then: was there any complete configuration left by Prince, or merely written tracklists?

.

Far too often we get sold a fairy tale, when what we want and deserve is a truthful accounting. IIRC Howe has said that for at least one song on the 1999 SDE they couldn't find an isolated Prince vocal and thus they ripped one from cassette and used software to isolate it and used that vocal in a new mix -- yet he didn't specify which song, so we still have to guess.

Oh, that was new to me, too. I must admit that beyond what was said here when I got to read it, I didn't look into 1999, SOTT and W2A in details, nor did I ask Neversin about it. I was pissed anyway, and I can hardly enjoy listening to Originals because of all that BS, so I kind of kept postponing investigating the rest in details, so not to get even more upset: the job just seemed way more faithful altogether (we had cassette references for some of the stuff on bootlegs for comparison), and at least we mostly got real mixes (not posthumous) on SOTT... and, I thought, W2A... So now I'm pissed at that album, too!!!!.


.

Note that I'm not 100% sure the "use vocals ripped from cassette" thing was for a track on 1999, but they did admit doing this for one of the releases.

.

WRT the different mixes for W2A: Morris has talked about them wanting to use one mix (which I guess they had one on of the CD-Rs) and he suggested another better one he had.

.

The whole of W2A is so odd. They talk about CD-Rs and some of the sound quality analysis of the Hi-Res tracks suggest that indeed the album's tracks are from a CD source and the Hi-Res release is an upscaled one (and thus a rip-off), yet in one of the photos of the police investigation you can see a box of multi-track tapes for W2A.

.

But then there is Morris's story of him doing his mix of the album (in 2010) using tracks delivered on CD-R and this makes me wonder: did he get a CD-R with the stems, or did he get a single CD-R with a raw mix of the album -- but if it is the last case, how could he have done a proper mix? Are those "glitchy CD sounds" we hear on some tracks caused by Morris getting a faulty CD-R and using that as the source for his mix?

.

So much of the story surrounding W2A is just so confusing...

.

I find it baffling that these releases are coated in a veil of myths and bullshit. If you look at the community of people taping concerts: every (free) "release" is accompanied with a .NFO file or a .TXT file goign into extreme detail on how the recording was made (which hardware, which kind of tape,...) and how the recording was then transfered onto a PC and how it was then edited and improved through technology, even down to which software was used to create the FLACs etc.. And yet professional releases like W2A come with confusing stories.

.

These days you get Blu-ray releases by boutique labels like Kino Lorber who go into detail on what the sources are for their releases and how those were treated, and yet the Prince Estate is "swallow and shut up and be happy we don't punish the people who kinda break their NDAs by giving too much details about how our releases came to be".

.

W2A was sold to us as a finished project that Prince left behind, yet it is clear that is it compiled from various sources and that its tracklist is a compromise of sorts and that at least in one case a different mix was used than the one featured on the "finished" CD-Rs found in Prince's archive.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #45 posted 09/25/21 5:45am

SchlomoThaHomo

avatar

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

.

Note that I'm not 100% sure the "use vocals ripped from cassette" thing was for a track on 1999, but they did admit doing this for one of the releases.


Howe said they sourced the song Bold Generation from a cassette because there were no masters found for it. He presumed Prince used the original master tapes to create New Power Generation, and thus recorded over the original.

"That's when stars collide. When there's space for what u want, and ur heart is open wide."
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #46 posted 09/25/21 7:53am

LILpoundCAKE

avatar

I fail to see how Cause & Effect would have fit onto that album anyway.


Although, it has some sonic similarities with "Yes".


Extra extra extra MAJORLY pissed now that they didn't include the songs
from those 3 cdrs on the special edition at least. Might have only been 2
other unknown tracks and a couple different versions, but still, that's the
whole deal with special editions usually. urgh.


neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral neutral

...the one who will listen when all others will not....
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #47 posted 09/25/21 7:55am

LoveGalore

SchlomoThaHomo said:



BartVanHemelen said:




databank said:






.


Note that I'm not 100% sure the "use vocals ripped from cassette" thing was for a track on 1999, but they did admit doing this for one of the releases.




Howe said they sourced the song Bold Generation from a cassette because there were no masters found for it. He presumed Prince used the original master tapes to create New Power Generation, and thus recorded over the original.




No different than WYL2LM. I think the scenario they are describing is specifically sourcing the vocal.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #48 posted 09/25/21 8:44am

SchlomoThaHomo

avatar

LoveGalore said:

SchlomoThaHomo said:


Howe said they sourced the song Bold Generation from a cassette because there were no masters found for it. He presumed Prince used the original master tapes to create New Power Generation, and thus recorded over the original.

No different than WYL2LM. I think the scenario they are describing is specifically sourcing the vocal.


Was this confirmed somewhere? Howe said it sounds like it does because it's only 16 tracks. I don't recall him commenting that it was cassette sourced. He did specifically say Bold Generation was sourced from a cassette, though. Also, can you really source just a vocal from a cassette mix-down?

"That's when stars collide. When there's space for what u want, and ur heart is open wide."
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #49 posted 09/25/21 10:18am

BartVanHemelen

avatar

SchlomoThaHomo said:

Also, can you really source just a vocal from a cassette mix-down?

.

There is even consumer-grade software that sorta can do this, but the results are often pretty bad since you either get a wildly distorted vocal or one where there is lots of bleedthrough of the rest of the music. It's like trying to unscramble an egg. See also: https://www.youtube.com/w..._HcwvBUbTc (but that uses a very simple song) and numerous other tutorials etc.

.

Considering that in their case the vocal was going to be used in a mix together with the other tracks on the multitrack, such bleedthrough isn't that much of a problem in this case, but there is always going to be an issue of audio quality since a cassette tape isn't exactly hi-fi.

.

I guess if you want to create a "Prince original" of a track and the Prince vocal isn't on the multi-track and you don't have a PRO mixdown of the Prince version, only a cassette copy, then this is just about the only solution. But IMHO you should disclose this in the liner notes instead of mentioning this in one interview and not even specifying which track it is

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #50 posted 09/25/21 11:42am

olb99

avatar

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

.

Note that I'm not 100% sure the "use vocals ripped from cassette" thing was for a track on 1999, but they did admit doing this for one of the releases.

.

WRT the different mixes for W2A: Morris has talked about them wanting to use one mix (which I guess they had one on of the CD-Rs) and he suggested another better one he had.

.

The whole of W2A is so odd. They talk about CD-Rs and some of the sound quality analysis of the Hi-Res tracks suggest that indeed the album's tracks are from a CD source and the Hi-Res release is an upscaled one (and thus a rip-off), yet in one of the photos of the police investigation you can see a box of multi-track tapes for W2A.

.

But then there is Morris's story of him doing his mix of the album (in 2010) using tracks delivered on CD-R and this makes me wonder: did he get a CD-R with the stems, or did he get a single CD-R with a raw mix of the album -- but if it is the last case, how could he have done a proper mix? Are those "glitchy CD sounds" we hear on some tracks caused by Morris getting a faulty CD-R and using that as the source for his mix?

.

So much of the story surrounding W2A is just so confusing...

.

I find it baffling that these releases are coated in a veil of myths and bullshit. If you look at the community of people taping concerts: every (free) "release" is accompanied with a .NFO file or a .TXT file goign into extreme detail on how the recording was made (which hardware, which kind of tape,...) and how the recording was then transfered onto a PC and how it was then edited and improved through technology, even down to which software was used to create the FLACs etc.. And yet professional releases like W2A come with confusing stories.

.

These days you get Blu-ray releases by boutique labels like Kino Lorber who go into detail on what the sources are for their releases and how those were treated, and yet the Prince Estate is "swallow and shut up and be happy we don't punish the people who kinda break their NDAs by giving too much details about how our releases came to be".

.

W2A was sold to us as a finished project that Prince left behind, yet it is clear that is it compiled from various sources and that its tracklist is a compromise of sorts and that at least in one case a different mix was used than the one featured on the "finished" CD-Rs found in Prince's archive.

.

In the (French) Violet podcast (at 3:44:00), Morris clearly says that he used a stereo mix given by Prince on a CD-R and that he added his stuff to the existing live mix. As I said in the other thread, it doesn't make any sense to me. Why would Prince and Morris work that way? confused That's very weird.

  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #51 posted 09/25/21 4:06pm

databank

avatar

olb99 said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

Note that I'm not 100% sure the "use vocals ripped from cassette" thing was for a track on 1999, but they did admit doing this for one of the releases.

.

WRT the different mixes for W2A: Morris has talked about them wanting to use one mix (which I guess they had one on of the CD-Rs) and he suggested another better one he had.

.

The whole of W2A is so odd. They talk about CD-Rs and some of the sound quality analysis of the Hi-Res tracks suggest that indeed the album's tracks are from a CD source and the Hi-Res release is an upscaled one (and thus a rip-off), yet in one of the photos of the police investigation you can see a box of multi-track tapes for W2A.

.

But then there is Morris's story of him doing his mix of the album (in 2010) using tracks delivered on CD-R and this makes me wonder: did he get a CD-R with the stems, or did he get a single CD-R with a raw mix of the album -- but if it is the last case, how could he have done a proper mix? Are those "glitchy CD sounds" we hear on some tracks caused by Morris getting a faulty CD-R and using that as the source for his mix?

.

So much of the story surrounding W2A is just so confusing...

.

I find it baffling that these releases are coated in a veil of myths and bullshit. If you look at the community of people taping concerts: every (free) "release" is accompanied with a .NFO file or a .TXT file goign into extreme detail on how the recording was made (which hardware, which kind of tape,...) and how the recording was then transfered onto a PC and how it was then edited and improved through technology, even down to which software was used to create the FLACs etc.. And yet professional releases like W2A come with confusing stories.

.

These days you get Blu-ray releases by boutique labels like Kino Lorber who go into detail on what the sources are for their releases and how those were treated, and yet the Prince Estate is "swallow and shut up and be happy we don't punish the people who kinda break their NDAs by giving too much details about how our releases came to be".

.

W2A was sold to us as a finished project that Prince left behind, yet it is clear that is it compiled from various sources and that its tracklist is a compromise of sorts and that at least in one case a different mix was used than the one featured on the "finished" CD-Rs found in Prince's archive.

.

In the (French) Violet podcast (at 3:44:00), Morris clearly says that he used a stereo mix given by Prince on a CD-R and that he added his stuff to the existing live mix. As I said in the other thread, it doesn't make any sense to me. Why would Prince and Morris work that way? confused That's very weird.

I think the only possible explaination is that Prince wanted to work the same way he did with all his horns and string sections (Eric Leeds, MBN, Stringgenius and Brent/Clare Fischer all confirmed Prince would often work like this with them), i.e. Morris' "production" job was limited to overdubs, and Prince would tell him "just add everything you like, I'll sort out what I keep and what I mute afterwards".

.

[Edited 9/25/21 16:12pm]

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...scography/
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #52 posted 09/25/21 4:07pm

databank

avatar

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

.

Note that I'm not 100% sure the "use vocals ripped from cassette" thing was for a track on 1999, but they did admit doing this for one of the releases.

.

WRT the different mixes for W2A: Morris has talked about them wanting to use one mix (which I guess they had one on of the CD-Rs) and he suggested another better one he had.

.

The whole of W2A is so odd. They talk about CD-Rs and some of the sound quality analysis of the Hi-Res tracks suggest that indeed the album's tracks are from a CD source and the Hi-Res release is an upscaled one (and thus a rip-off), yet in one of the photos of the police investigation you can see a box of multi-track tapes for W2A.

.

But then there is Morris's story of him doing his mix of the album (in 2010) using tracks delivered on CD-R and this makes me wonder: did he get a CD-R with the stems, or did he get a single CD-R with a raw mix of the album -- but if it is the last case, how could he have done a proper mix? Are those "glitchy CD sounds" we hear on some tracks caused by Morris getting a faulty CD-R and using that as the source for his mix?

.

So much of the story surrounding W2A is just so confusing...

.

I find it baffling that these releases are coated in a veil of myths and bullshit. If you look at the community of people taping concerts: every (free) "release" is accompanied with a .NFO file or a .TXT file goign into extreme detail on how the recording was made (which hardware, which kind of tape,...) and how the recording was then transfered onto a PC and how it was then edited and improved through technology, even down to which software was used to create the FLACs etc.. And yet professional releases like W2A come with confusing stories.

.

These days you get Blu-ray releases by boutique labels like Kino Lorber who go into detail on what the sources are for their releases and how those were treated, and yet the Prince Estate is "swallow and shut up and be happy we don't punish the people who kinda break their NDAs by giving too much details about how our releases came to be".

.

W2A was sold to us as a finished project that Prince left behind, yet it is clear that is it compiled from various sources and that its tracklist is a compromise of sorts and that at least in one case a different mix was used than the one featured on the "finished" CD-Rs found in Prince's archive.

I agree 100% nod

.

And thank you for all the info yes

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...scography/
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #53 posted 09/25/21 4:10pm

databank

avatar

SchlomoThaHomo said:

LoveGalore said:

SchlomoThaHomo said: No different than WYL2LM. I think the scenario they are describing is specifically sourcing the vocal.


Was this confirmed somewhere? Howe said it sounds like it does because it's only 16 tracks. I don't recall him commenting that it was cassette sourced. He did specifically say Bold Generation was sourced from a cassette, though. Also, can you really source just a vocal from a cassette mix-down?

This I remember clearly from the time of release: Howe said the whole of BG came from cassette (making it the only 100% historically accurate mix of the whole collection), so that's why there was some hiss, etc., so it cannot be that one song.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...scography/
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #54 posted 09/25/21 10:12pm

Hamad

avatar

First thing that popped in my mind when I read the thread title, was Carmen Electra’s “All That”.

Goddammit, Prince sigh headache
Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future...

Twitter: https://twitter.com/QLH82
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #55 posted 09/26/21 5:59am

LoveGalore

databank said:



SchlomoThaHomo said:




LoveGalore said:


SchlomoThaHomo said: No different than WYL2LM. I think the scenario they are describing is specifically sourcing the vocal.


Was this confirmed somewhere? Howe said it sounds like it does because it's only 16 tracks. I don't recall him commenting that it was cassette sourced. He did specifically say Bold Generation was sourced from a cassette, though. Also, can you really source just a vocal from a cassette mix-down?



This I remember clearly from the time of release: Howe said the whole of BG came from cassette (making it the only 100% historically accurate mix of the whole collection), so that's why there was some hiss, etc., so it cannot be that one song.



I can't really even figure out what song remotely sounds like it could be the one. Maybe Can't Stop since the fidelity is a bit different to the rest (more on par with BG)?

Further to that, why would Prince's vocal not be on a multi track of a song he didn't give to someone else anyway?
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #56 posted 09/26/21 6:09am

fredmagnus


BartVanHemelen said:


Note that I'm not 100% sure the "use vocals ripped from cassette" thing was for a track on 1999, but they did admit doing this for one of the releases.


.


.

[/quote]

They used that vocals software on Originals not on 1999 SDE. They used it for 100 MPH.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #57 posted 09/27/21 2:28pm

bigtallwall

avatar

I think some of Originals, the Vault tracks from 1999 and SOTT SDE were clearly "Frankensteined". The why is anyone's guess since we weren't there listening to and digging out the original tapes. Maybe the tapes were badly damaged? (like "Wally" on SOTT SDE) Maybe they weren't even the right tapes in the right cases? They didn't look like they were all badly stored on the vault shelves....Who knows....

Let's take for example, "Baby You're A Trip". The bootleg mix that has been around for 30+ years has always had a loud reverb on the drum track. Jill Jones' official mix that was released on her album has the same loud reverb on the drums. The Originals mix, while longer, has a very flat and dry sounding drum track in the mix. Prince would've never had that as a 'working' mix in any capacity. If the demo and the Jill Jones final mix was his preference, then as far along as the Originals mix is, it wouldn't have been his 'final mix' for that drum track.

"Noon Rendezvous" and "Glamorous Life" - both of these have obvious mix differences in the drum track. It seems likely Prince would've had the full volume mixed up for "Noon Rendezvous" as was released on the album version. He wouldn't have printed a mix with half of the drums in and out like what was released. Maybe as he was playing around with the audio levels in the control room, I could see that. But he wouldn't have printed a mix onto tape like that. It ruins the groove badly. Remember that these songs were cut so fast that he didn't spend a great amount of time finessing and polishing the tracks for more than a day or two. On Originals, "Glamorous Life" clearly has the additional percussion in the drum tracks but they're muted or turned way down, yet you can still hear them faintly. Prince wouldn't have had it that bareboned even for a 'final demo' prior to Sheila taking over. That's what we are led to believe - that these are Prince's final mixes prior to giving them to other artists.

Songs like Make-Up, Holly Rock, Gigolos Get Lonely Too sound really great and are believable in that they could've been the final mix w/ Prince's vocals.

On 1999 SDE - that mix of "Feel U Up" always drives me nuts because it still sounds so uneven. When compared to the circulating Bootleg - when the music winds down at 3:30 and then picks back up at 3:35 those synth levels are way too low. The music just needs to cook and groove and Prince would've never had them at that low level like that.

On "Irrisistible Bitch" - this one actually sounds really good until you get to 3:35 and they turn down that awesome drum track!!! On the circulating bootleg - that's the best part because it's all just grooving and cooking along! No way would he have done that. Another beautiful classic that was butchered. sad

Using the circulating bootlegs as a reference is a good indication for the musicality and audio levels of the songs as he was working on them. Of course he edited himself and changed lyrics on occasion but the feel and pulse of the music would've remained intact. Other songs like Don't Let Him Fool Ya and Possessed are nearly identical when compared to the circulating bootlegs. It's a guessing game as to why The Estate made the editorial choices that they did. I'm just glad to be able to enjoy this music in any capacity.

“To create something from nothing is one of the greatest feelings, and I would – I don’t know, I wish it upon everybody. It’s heaven.” – Prince
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #58 posted 09/27/21 6:28pm

LoveGalore

bigtallwall said:

I think some of Originals, the Vault tracks from 1999 and SOTT SDE were clearly "Frankensteined". The why is anyone's guess since we weren't there listening to and digging out the original tapes. Maybe the tapes were badly damaged? (like "Wally" on SOTT SDE) Maybe they weren't even the right tapes in the right cases? They didn't look like they were all badly stored on the vault shelves....Who knows....


Let's take for example, "Baby You're A Trip". The bootleg mix that has been around for 30+ years has always had a loud reverb on the drum track. Jill Jones' official mix that was released on her album has the same loud reverb on the drums. The Originals mix, while longer, has a very flat and dry sounding drum track in the mix. Prince would've never had that as a 'working' mix in any capacity. If the demo and the Jill Jones final mix was his preference, then as far along as the Originals mix is, it wouldn't have been his 'final mix' for that drum track.


"Noon Rendezvous" and "Glamorous Life" - both of these have obvious mix differences in the drum track. It seems likely Prince would've had the full volume mixed up for "Noon Rendezvous" as was released on the album version. He wouldn't have printed a mix with half of the drums in and out like what was released. Maybe as he was playing around with the audio levels in the control room, I could see that. But he wouldn't have printed a mix onto tape like that. It ruins the groove badly. Remember that these songs were cut so fast that he didn't spend a great amount of time finessing and polishing the tracks for more than a day or two. On Originals, "Glamorous Life" clearly has the additional percussion in the drum tracks but they're muted or turned way down, yet you can still hear them faintly. Prince wouldn't have had it that bareboned even for a 'final demo' prior to Sheila taking over. That's what we are led to believe - that these are Prince's final mixes prior to giving them to other artists.


Songs like Make-Up, Holly Rock, Gigolos Get Lonely Too sound really great and are believable in that they could've been the final mix w/ Prince's vocals.


On 1999 SDE - that mix of "Feel U Up" always drives me nuts because it still sounds so uneven. When compared to the circulating Bootleg - when the music winds down at 3:30 and then picks back up at 3:35 those synth levels are way too low. The music just needs to cook and groove and Prince would've never had them at that low level like that.


On "Irrisistible Bitch" - this one actually sounds really good until you get to 3:35 and they turn down that awesome drum track!!! On the circulating bootleg - that's the best part because it's all just grooving and cooking along! No way would he have done that. Another beautiful classic that was butchered. sad


Using the circulating bootlegs as a reference is a good indication for the musicality and audio levels of the songs as he was working on them. Of course he edited himself and changed lyrics on occasion but the feel and pulse of the music would've remained intact. Other songs like Don't Let Him Fool Ya and Possessed are nearly identical when compared to the circulating bootlegs. It's a guessing game as to why The Estate made the editorial choices that they did. I'm just glad to be able to enjoy this music in any capacity.





Sure, it's a guessing game. But then you look at songs like Purple Music, Sexual Suicide, It's A Wonderful Day, No Call U, Strange Relationship, etc where you see that Prince had tons of edits and remixes of these songs on the cutting room floor that were different to the bootlegs.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #59 posted 09/28/21 1:36am

bluegangsta

avatar

bigtallwall said:

I think some of Originals, the Vault tracks from 1999 and SOTT SDE were clearly "Frankensteined". The why is anyone's guess since we weren't there listening to and digging out the original tapes. Maybe the tapes were badly damaged?

On 1999 SDE - that mix of "Feel U Up" always drives me nuts because it still sounds so uneven. When compared to the circulating Bootleg - when the music winds down at 3:30 and then picks back up at 3:35 those synth levels are way too low. The music just needs to cook and groove and Prince would've never had them at that low level like that.

On "Irrisistible Bitch" - this one actually sounds really good until you get to 3:35 and they turn down that awesome drum track!!! On the circulating bootleg - that's the best part because it's all just grooving and cooking along! No way would he have done that. Another beautiful classic that was butchered. sad

Most of the tracks on 1999 Deluxe were remixed.

As far as Irrisistible Bitch is concerned, I would assume that the drums on the multitrack stopped at that point, rather than being some editing on the Estate's half. Completely concur about the mix on both tracks though - they don't even begin to resemble the bootlegs (despite their quality) or any other mix from that era.

Always cry 4 love, never cry 4 pain.
  - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Page 2 of 3 <123>
  New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Prince: Music and More > How much of "Originals" was frankensteined?