LoveGalore said:

bigtallwall said:

I think some of Originals, the Vault tracks from 1999 and SOTT SDE were clearly "Frankensteined". The why is anyone's guess since we weren't there listening to and digging out the original tapes. Maybe the tapes were badly damaged? (like "Wally" on SOTT SDE) Maybe they weren't even the right tapes in the right cases? They didn't look like they were all badly stored on the vault shelves....Who knows....

Let's take for example, "Baby You're A Trip". The bootleg mix that has been around for 30+ years has always had a loud reverb on the drum track. Jill Jones' official mix that was released on her album has the same loud reverb on the drums. The Originals mix, while longer, has a very flat and dry sounding drum track in the mix. Prince would've never had that as a 'working' mix in any capacity. If the demo and the Jill Jones final mix was his preference, then as far along as the Originals mix is, it wouldn't have been his 'final mix' for that drum track.

"Noon Rendezvous" and "Glamorous Life" - both of these have obvious mix differences in the drum track. It seems likely Prince would've had the full volume mixed up for "Noon Rendezvous" as was released on the album version. He wouldn't have printed a mix with half of the drums in and out like what was released. Maybe as he was playing around with the audio levels in the control room, I could see that. But he wouldn't have printed a mix onto tape like that. It ruins the groove badly. Remember that these songs were cut so fast that he didn't spend a great amount of time finessing and polishing the tracks for more than a day or two. On Originals, "Glamorous Life" clearly has the additional percussion in the drum tracks but they're muted or turned way down, yet you can still hear them faintly. Prince wouldn't have had it that bareboned even for a 'final demo' prior to Sheila taking over. That's what we are led to believe - that these are Prince's final mixes prior to giving them to other artists.

Songs like Make-Up, Holly Rock, Gigolos Get Lonely Too sound really great and are believable in that they could've been the final mix w/ Prince's vocals.

On 1999 SDE - that mix of "Feel U Up" always drives me nuts because it still sounds so uneven. When compared to the circulating Bootleg - when the music winds down at 3:30 and then picks back up at 3:35 those synth levels are way too low. The music just needs to cook and groove and Prince would've never had them at that low level like that.

On "Irrisistible Bitch" - this one actually sounds really good until you get to 3:35 and they turn down that awesome drum track!!! On the circulating bootleg - that's the best part because it's all just grooving and cooking along! No way would he have done that. Another beautiful classic that was butchered.

Using the circulating bootlegs as a reference is a good indication for the musicality and audio levels of the songs as he was working on them. Of course he edited himself and changed lyrics on occasion but the feel and pulse of the music would've remained intact. Other songs like Don't Let Him Fool Ya and Possessed are nearly identical when compared to the circulating bootlegs. It's a guessing game as to why The Estate made the editorial choices that they did. I'm just glad to be able to enjoy this music in any capacity.

Sure, it's a guessing game. But then you look at songs like Purple Music, Sexual Suicide, It's A Wonderful Day, No Call U, Strange Relationship, etc where you see that Prince had tons of edits and remixes of these songs on the cutting room floor that were different to the bootlegs.

That much is true: some of the cassette only mixes that made it to bootlegs and elite traders may not even be in the vault at all, if all copies were distributed and/or lost in Prince's car. I hope the Estate is attemping to collect what they may lack from the WB vault, former associates and the elite traders they're in touch with.

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Either way, we have no guarantee that the cassette mixes used for reference by Niko Bolas were always the exact same ones that we have (which is why this element alone was never the only "evidence" we had regarding Originals being frankensteined, and why it's a little more difficult to be certain when it comes to 1999 and SOTT outtakes).

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Then again, if those cassette mixes were made available for comparison, for example in a special online store for hardcore fans, we could choose to pay twice for the same track (more money to the Estate), and evaluate for ourselves how faithful the new mixes are.

LoveGalore said:

bigtallwall said:

I think some of Originals, the Vault tracks from 1999 and SOTT SDE were clearly "Frankensteined". The why is anyone's guess since we weren't there listening to and digging out the original tapes. Maybe the tapes were badly damaged? (like "Wally" on SOTT SDE) Maybe they weren't even the right tapes in the right cases? They didn't look like they were all badly stored on the vault shelves....Who knows....

Let's take for example, "Baby You're A Trip". The bootleg mix that has been around for 30+ years has always had a loud reverb on the drum track. Jill Jones' official mix that was released on her album has the same loud reverb on the drums. The Originals mix, while longer, has a very flat and dry sounding drum track in the mix. Prince would've never had that as a 'working' mix in any capacity. If the demo and the Jill Jones final mix was his preference, then as far along as the Originals mix is, it wouldn't have been his 'final mix' for that drum track.

"Noon Rendezvous" and "Glamorous Life" - both of these have obvious mix differences in the drum track. It seems likely Prince would've had the full volume mixed up for "Noon Rendezvous" as was released on the album version. He wouldn't have printed a mix with half of the drums in and out like what was released. Maybe as he was playing around with the audio levels in the control room, I could see that. But he wouldn't have printed a mix onto tape like that. It ruins the groove badly. Remember that these songs were cut so fast that he didn't spend a great amount of time finessing and polishing the tracks for more than a day or two. On Originals, "Glamorous Life" clearly has the additional percussion in the drum tracks but they're muted or turned way down, yet you can still hear them faintly. Prince wouldn't have had it that bareboned even for a 'final demo' prior to Sheila taking over. That's what we are led to believe - that these are Prince's final mixes prior to giving them to other artists.

Songs like Make-Up, Holly Rock, Gigolos Get Lonely Too sound really great and are believable in that they could've been the final mix w/ Prince's vocals.

On 1999 SDE - that mix of "Feel U Up" always drives me nuts because it still sounds so uneven. When compared to the circulating Bootleg - when the music winds down at 3:30 and then picks back up at 3:35 those synth levels are way too low. The music just needs to cook and groove and Prince would've never had them at that low level like that.

On "Irrisistible Bitch" - this one actually sounds really good until you get to 3:35 and they turn down that awesome drum track!!! On the circulating bootleg - that's the best part because it's all just grooving and cooking along! No way would he have done that. Another beautiful classic that was butchered.

Using the circulating bootlegs as a reference is a good indication for the musicality and audio levels of the songs as he was working on them. Of course he edited himself and changed lyrics on occasion but the feel and pulse of the music would've remained intact. Other songs like Don't Let Him Fool Ya and Possessed are nearly identical when compared to the circulating bootlegs. It's a guessing game as to why The Estate made the editorial choices that they did. I'm just glad to be able to enjoy this music in any capacity.

Sure, it's a guessing game. But then you look at songs like Purple Music, Sexual Suicide, It's A Wonderful Day, No Call U, Strange Relationship, etc where you see that Prince had tons of edits and remixes of these songs on the cutting room floor that were different to the bootlegs.

Yep, that's right. What leaked on the bootlegs usually were the rough mixes from the soundboard that they made as they were working on the tracks. It wasn't necessarily the final mix that got printed, hence the differences between the 85 Bootleg Mix of Sexual Suicide vs. the 86 mix that was released on the 1998 Crystal Ball.

I think the point here is that the Estate is releasing these Vault tracks with the tagline that this was Prince's version or how Prince would've mixed them prior to giving it to the artists who actually released them. We are all saying that in some cases, yes, that's probably true. But in a lot of other cases that are audibly obvious, we call bullshit because they don't sound like what Prince would've considered based on how the bootlegs sound.

I don't mind the Frankensteining and tampering with the songs to present them in the best sound quality, but in cases like Baby Youre A Trip and Rebirth of the Flesh and Feel U Up/Irresistible Bitch, I don't think they had the right to edit them to their tastes vs. how Prince would've mixed and released them. If they're going to remix them from the original tracks, make it sound like it's supposed and intended to - not what they think it should sound like.

bigtallwall said:

LoveGalore said:

bigtallwall said: Sure, it's a guessing game. But then you look at songs like Purple Music, Sexual Suicide, It's A Wonderful Day, No Call U, Strange Relationship, etc where you see that Prince had tons of edits and remixes of these songs on the cutting room floor that were different to the bootlegs.

Yep, that's right. What leaked on the bootlegs usually were the rough mixes from the soundboard that they made as they were working on the tracks. It wasn't necessarily the final mix that got printed, hence the differences between the 85 Bootleg Mix of Sexual Suicide vs. the 86 mix that was released on the 1998 Crystal Ball.

Not to mention that some of these 80's tracks may have been given new mixes by HM Buff in 1997. He definitely said he did some mixing for CB, though I don't think he said exactly which tracks were used as such and which were reworked. I very much suspect Crucial never existed in that exact form in 86, for example, cos neither the 2 bootleg mixes not the SOTT SDE one reflect anything like it. There is also doubt about Splash, according to Pvault, though I couldn't tell what in the released version could be from 1998 not 1985/6, save perhaps the mix.

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I think the point here is that the Estate is releasing these Vault tracks with the tagline that this was Prince's version or how Prince would've mixed them prior to giving it to the artists who actually released them. We are all saying that in some cases, yes, that's probably true. But in a lot of other cases that are audibly obvious, we call bullshit because they don't sound like what Prince would've considered based on how the bootlegs sound.

Agreed.

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I don't mind the Frankensteining and tampering with the songs to present them in the best sound quality, but in cases like Baby Youre A Trip and Rebirth of the Flesh and Feel U Up/Irresistible Bitch, I don't think they had the right to edit them to their tastes vs. how Prince would've mixed and released them. If they're going to remix them from the original tracks, make it sound like it's supposed and intended to - not what they think it should sound like.

I don't even think "how Prince would have released/mixed them" can be a criteria, as he would simply not have released some of these tracks/mixes at all, and it's hard to tell what was what given his tendency to change his mind and rework things at the last minute. I think the true criteria here is what was left behind, and that any attempt to recreate a cassette mix should be done with this state of mind, not "trying to do what we assume would have been done", because that is already an editorial decision.

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Note that I'm not saying correcting the pitch on old tapes would have been wrong (I have to take the word of those who can hear such a thing - I can't, but apparently there have been problems there, too), because a pitch change due to old tapes isn't an artistic decision by Prince at any given time.

[Edited 9/28/21 14:25pm]

[Edited 9/28/21 14:26pm]