funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

nobody? prince did prince music, so yes, prince didnt sound like anyone else, but lots of bands were featuring rappers on their songs at this time, even REM, sonic youth, etc etc. rap was also scoring more commercially around this time, eg vanilla ice with ice ice baby and mc hammer, and critically, rap couldnt be ignored. so its not like he was thinking totally left field and doing what no one else was.

And how many rappers at the time could rap such as Tony M owith such a flow in songs like Jughead or Willing and Able?

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Vannormal said:

renfield said:

I'm with you there; whatever anyone thinks of the album that era was so much fun. It's dated now but D&P felt fresh for Prince in 1991 and he seemed reinvigorated. "Gett Off" was him updating his sound for a new decade and the visuals (videos, clothes, the hologram) were new and exciting. And the NPG felt like his first real band since the Revolution. That's not a knock on the SOTT/Lovesexy band, but Prince didn't push Miko or Boni as 'stars' the way he tried with Tommy Barbarella, Rosie, or Tony M.

There were TV performances, awards shows, interviews...he was everywhere and it was a blast. Really fun time to be a Prince fan.

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Yes, it 'seemed' reinvigorated.

To me, that album came across as a final convulsion to get even bigger than he already was (/has been). Graffit Bridge, his previous attempt of reworked old vault tracks was also a serious commercial flop.

That album (D&P) to me was a strange commercial attempt, a concession nearly, as if he wanted to belong to the sound of that moment.

To me, it did not came off as fresh or innovative Prince.

The only songs on that album that are acceptable (imho) are;

'Willing and Able',

'Gett Off',

'Money Don't Matter 2 Night',

'Insatiable'.

Honestly, i barely ever listened to that album or the next one; ''''.

All in my opinion of course.

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I really like Strollin, and I consider tracks like Violet the Organ Grinder, Clockin the Jizz and Get Some Solo as parts of the album, more or less, or better yet parts of that era, and I really like them.

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As far as Prince chasing trends is concerned, you are right, and coming from a HipHop background I did not like how Prince incorporated Rap into his music because I grew up listening to real Rap and the Hip Hop scene had huge respect for Prince anyway so I think it was a bit unnecessary to tarnish his musical genius status with fake ass raps back then or emulate famous rappers in his later attempts ( 18 And Over´s cadence for example is very remiscent of Snoop Dogg) .

However, keep in mind that Prince almost always soaked up what was going on in contemporary music and turned it into something of his own.

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I bet he sounded too funky or too pop for the Rolling Stones crowd even though he knew how to play fierce Rock guitar, and maybe too funky for the cold synth pop of the New Romantics.

I´m just saying that while I initially disliked how he used Rap elements in his music, it was still inevitable and bound to happen, just like he incorporated a little bit of Punk, a little bit of New Wave, New Romantics, etc. etc. in his music.

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Many say that this was the album that showed him chasing trends but I say it´s just a reflection of the times he was living in , just like many other albums before it.

Maybe it was just more obvious with this one whereas the other albums sounded more like an amalgam of sounds?

RODSERLING said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

nobody? prince did prince music, so yes, prince didnt sound like anyone else, but lots of bands were featuring rappers on their songs at this time, even REM, sonic youth, etc etc. rap was also scoring more commercially around this time, eg vanilla ice with ice ice baby and mc hammer, and critically, rap couldnt be ignored. so its not like he was thinking totally left field and doing what no one else was.

You're quoting Vanilla Ice amd MC Hammer, they did nothing else in their "carreer" To sample music during their whole songs. MC Hammer even sampled Prince famously with Pray and Soft and Wet. I find Tony M s rap fantastic, it must be very hard to do what he did with the funky groove Prince gave him. It forces him to absolutely not sound monochord through his verses, and that's clearly a default of most rappers, including those you are quoting. Many bamds at the time used rap too, but as a short featuring, not during a large part of their album. Tony M's raps are the absolute opposite of what the movement was at the time, taking itself too seriously, " Fuck the police ", etc. Prince NPG was about love, and God and no violence. That was that touch that Prince brought to the rap music.

To each his own. But if you find Tony M's rapping fantastic, you're part of an exclusive club. His rap is mediocre compared to a lot of rappers around at the time. And there's nothing especially difficult about his style.

Also, in 1991 there had been an anti violence movement going on in rap for a couple of years (Stop the Violence), and in NYC you had the Native Tongue scene which was in opposition to the gangster rap and the macho attitudes. So, saying that Prince was breaking new ground here is dead wrong.

On the contrary, as others have mentioned, Prince implemented rap at a time when rap had already broken through the mainstream, also with white kids. Diamonds & Pearls was very much following well established trends in that respect.

[Edited 9/9/21 13:05pm]

I understand why many fans hate Diamonds and Pearls, because, after the brilliant work he did in the 80s, he was following trends and inviting rappers, and such.

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But I really love that album. The album that made me a fan and has great songs like ´Cream´, ´Diamonds´, ´Willing and Able´, ´Money dont matter 2night´, ´Gett Off´ and ´Strollin´. So cool to see Prince as a band leader of a truly great/skilled band. The NPG is my all time fave Prince band.

garneren said:

I like Diamonds and Pearls....it's a fun,lively album with alot of catchy songs.

But honestly,I wish that Dirty Mind or Controversy would be the next SDE.

RODSERLING said:

1. D&P is musically a masterpiece. Prince created a whole new sound, very eclectic and combining every genre.

2. I can't understand the fans saying he followed trends with this album. That was the first time there was hip/hop rap with true instrumentals played by true musicians, not just a sample loop.

3. Lyrically, it was also self-mocking, prefiguring Eminem. It seemed like, for the 1st time in his carreer, Prince was really having fun.

4. Commercially, it wasn't that successful, considering the numbers of hits, music videos, promotion, tv performances, amd all the work put behind these choregraphoes and scenographies!

5. I think the lack of US tour prevented it for selling more than 3 millions there.

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1. To state it is a masterpiece... I wish I could state the same. Sure I might change my mind, i'm always open to say i'm wrong if so when i'm guided to listen to it from a new angle eg.

So far, i still can't be impressed by 9 out of 13 songs. (never liked 'Cream' !)

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2. (already better answered by others)

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3. Prince self mocked himself more than often way before that. The very best (but it remaines a bit unnoticed) in Vicky Waiting, when he said someone find his ''organ so small''. lol

Prince having fun? Well, for one, he surrounded him with all new (musically skilled) yes-sayers IMHO.

Yes, he signned a big contract, and that might've made him happy to go and spill $$ due to bad business choices, he nearly was bankrupt shortly after that IIRC.

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4. I did not know that. I thought it sold super well in the states. Thank you.

They indeed pumped a lot of money in all these slightly redundant videos (imho).

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5. True.

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[Edited 9/9/21 22:51pm]

RODSERLING said:

Commercially, it wasn't that successful, considering the numbers of hits, music videos, promotion, tv performances, amd all the work put behind these choregraphoes and scenographies! I think the lack of US tour prevented it for selling more than 3 millions there.

Actually,Diamonds and Pearls was a huge commercial success.In America,"Cream" was a Number One single and the title track peaked at Number Three.The album sold well over 2 million copies in the US.That's called a "hit album" Sure,it probably would have sold more copies if Prince had brought the tour to the States,but the album did very well regardless.

One of the smart things that Prince did with this album is....he enlisted Frank Dileo (MJ's former manager) to help out with the promotion.It really made a difference.Unlike some of the other Prince albums,this one had five singles that did well and the album remained "hot" for a longer period of time.

That's BS, he talked about Sonic Youth, REM, that is rap to you? 🤣😀

the point is, other acts outside hip hop were working with rappers BEFORE prince was. and they were working with credible rappers. and then you think of new jack swing in R&B and how producers like teddy riley were already mixing rap and rnb... its quite easy to see that it was a hot new thing that many artists were mixing prior to 1991.

Can you just quote some bands, some hits?

stetsasonic. look them up. but you will say they dont count because they werent pop. anyway, the NPG wasnt a 'rap band' like the roots later on. it was an 'everything' band. that was their MO. that they could do anything. and they did, maybe too much. and hammer went on tour in the early 90s with a live band. eg - https://www.youtube.com/w...ZcZ2IXA09g

Vanilla Ice, Ll cool J, Public Enemy, etc. They used only samplers, and everybody knows it. They, were chasing trends.

lol, they werent chasing trends, they were making hip hop. thats what hip hop was about. sampling.

Prince did a risky thing : doing the exact opposite of what easily worked commercially. That's the exact opposite of the definition of chasing trends.

If he wanted to chase trends, he would have done like MJ : doing a solo record, with a few guests on a few selected tracks, just to be radio friendly.

that would actually have been better if he got one decent rapper on one song. but he thought he knew rap better than artists like MJ. he thought he knew about it enough to incorporate it into a lot of his music. he didnt.

it might have been a risk to bring in an unknown rapper, so hey, kudos to prince for that i suppose, but it wasnt an educated risk. it was a poor one. none of the rappers who respected prince like ice cube or chuck d for instance would have considered tony m a great MC.

i dont actually hate tony m (though if you listen to other early 90s rap, hes not really a stand out talent, sad to say), but i would have preferred if prince just worked with him like he did carmen or tc ellis and made it a side project. a song like the call the law isnt bad, musically speaking.

[Edited 9/9/21 13:49pm]

Ramzoo said:

SoulAlive said:

RODSERLING said:

That was the first time there was hip/hop rap with true instrumentals played by true musicians, not just a sample loop.

Dr. Dre began favoring interpolating live instruments played live by local CA musicians instead of direct record samples in the late 80s. As he produced more and more hits using this technique it became the predominant production style of early 90s rap.

Aside from a two-second Funkadelic guitar loop in the bridge and some scratches this is all live instrumentation, including drums (Released 1990):

https://youtu.be/GiDti_Xnnmo?t=32

Live jazz flute used as the primary basis of a 1991 Dre production (album release same date as D&P):

https://www.youtube.com/w...Rcc2mBdifo

[Edited 9/11/21 0:51am]

RODSERLING said:

How can he was seriously released that crap of Insatiable is beyond everything in marketing. A caricatural ripp-off from Scandalous, which was sadly a flop already in 1990.

Insatiable and Scandalous weren't flops, they were both top 5 R&B hits (Scandalous reaching number 5 on the R&B chart, Insatiable reaching number 3). They were never intended to be pop hits. Cream, while topping the Hot 100, missed the R&B chart completely. That's when Insatiable was being promoted there and went to number 3. It served its purpose of keeping him on R&B radio while pop ran with Cream. The fact that Insatiable reached number 77 on the Hot 100 anyway is a testament to how well he was doing at that time, not a sign of a flop. It was a brilliant multi-format marketing approach.

[Edited 9/11/21 1:04am]

Diamonds and Perals was a hell of an album.

RODSERLING said:

SoulAlive said:

Actually,Diamonds and Pearls was a huge commercial success.In America,"Cream" was a Number One single and the title track peaked at Number Three.The album sold well over 2 million copies in the US.That's called a "hit album" Sure,it probably would have sold more copies if Prince had brought the tour to the States,but the album did very well regardless.

One of the smart things that Prince did with this album is....he enlisted Frank Dileo (MJ's former manager) to help out with the promotion.It really made a difference.Unlike some of the other Prince albums,this one had five singles that did well and the album remained "hot" for a longer period of time.

I m well aware of the numbers and sales and the promotion by Dileo 🤣 How can he was seriously released that crap of Insatiable is beyond everything in marketing. A caricatural ripp-off from Scandalous, which was sadly a flop already in 1990. D& D&P had no less than 3 gold singles in the US, and 4 huge worldwide hits. There was so many albums with 3/4/5 singles in 1991/1992 that sold twice, 3, 4 or 5 times what sold D&P worldwide, that your statement is nothing but ludicrous. REM's Automatic for the People sold 4.5 millions in the US, and 18 M WW. Nevermind's Nirvana sold more than 10 millions in the US and 25+ millions WW, with only 4 singles, that were not even charting in the top 40 for half of them. U2's Achtung Baby sold 8 millions in the the US, etc. I could continue all night long. Sinead O Connor albums in 1990 sold 5/6 millions WW with only one top 40 hit! To cut short, 1999 sold 4 millions in the US, and D&P didn't achieve that success at all, despite huge hits, huge promotion, etc. So, no, 7 millions worldwide considering all the hits, and money and efforts invested, is not a huge success, or neither in the average success of its era. Bad timing of Gett Off released too early before the album, Insatiable, lack of US tour didn't help, but still... [Edited 9/10/21 17:20pm]

Question.... Was the album sales for those albums under the old formula or the new formula?

Because Walmart and other Box stores were buying albums in bulk and they counted those albums as sold units.

Prince wasn't getting bought in bulk by the Box Stores because of the Parental Advisory label thus his sales were actual sales.

You have to be real careful here.

Vannormal said:

Yes, it 'seemed' reinvigorated.

To me, that album came across as a final convulsion to get even bigger than he already was (/has been).

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D&P was Prince going all-out commercial because his contract was about to be renewed and he wanted a new one to boast about, to compete with Michael and Madonna and REM etc.. Hence him doing completely out of character stuff (extensive tour, promo, videos, etc.)

.

RODSERLING said:

D&P is musically a masterpiece.

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LOL. No it isn't.

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That was the first time there was hip/hop rap with true instrumentals played by true musicians, not just a sample loop.

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LOL. Pointless since the "hip hop" was a wack dude shouting bland nonsense.

SoulAlive said:

Actually,Diamonds and Pearls was a huge commercial success.In America,"Cream" was a Number One single and the title track peaked at Number Three.The album sold well over 2 million copies in the US.That's called a "hit album"

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It is a fraction of what a true hit album would sell. Look at the numbers Madonna was doing at the time, for instance. No Madonna record had sold less than 5 million in the USA alone; meanwhile only three of Prince's album sold 5 million or more worldwide: PR, Batman and D&P. MJ's Bad sold 2 million in its first week in the USA. Honestly, for all the effort D&P's numbers still feel disappointing to me.

BartVanHemelen said:

Phase3 said:

BartVanHemelen said:

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It is a fraction of what a true hit album would sell. Look at the numbers Madonna was doing at the time, for instance. No Madonna record had sold less than 5 million in the USA alone; meanwhile only three of Prince's album sold 5 million or more worldwide: PR, Batman and D&P. MJ's Bad sold 2 million in its first week in the USA. Honestly, for all the effort D&P's numbers still feel disappointing to me.

In the words of Norma Bates,its lies...all lies! Take a look https://en.m.wikipedia.or...iscography

It's not entirely lies...the only Madonna albums that sold fewer than 5 million copies in the US by 1991 were the 'Who's That Girl' and 'I'm Breathless' soundtracks and the 'You Can Dance' remix album. All of her proper studio albums (plus 'The Immaculate Collection') sold 5 million or more. Her first studio album to do less than 5 million was 'Erotica', a year after D&P.

I still think it's silly though to say D&P wasn't a hit album. It might not have been a massive blockbuster but a double platinum top 3 album with 4 top 40 hits (including a number one) is a hit album. Especially coming off the flop of Graffiti Bridge.

[Edited 9/11/21 23:59pm]

BartVanHemelen said:

RODSERLING said:

Again, for all the money, singles and videos invested, D&P' 6/7 millions WW is a disappointing number. D&P had 2 #1s in the US, and in fact, Gett Off sold more than them, despite being only #14. There were so many albums that sold twice, three or 4 times better without investing as much in singles. So many albums with only 4 singles that weren't even all top 40. I think aBout u2's Achtung Baby, 8 M in the US alone. Nevermind sold more than 20 millions WW ( at the time). REM's Out of Time sold 4 millions in the US alone, 18 M WW. MC Hammer, Vanilla Ice, Mariah Carey, etc. They sold like 10 M in the US without investing that much in singles. The common denominator of all these albums is that they are all one-genre album. D&P was too eclectic to sell that much. Those who loved Gett Off ( the only single released with Tony M, for those who didn't understand, and still think Prince was chasing trend🤣) were disappointed by a crap like Insatiable. Those loved the pop/rock of Cream mostly couldn't get into D&P. Can you imagine Nevermind with rap songs, rnb or jazz? It wouldn't have sold that much, that's for sure. People who liked the first REM single, loved the second one, the third obe, etc. Because they were all in the same genre. That's why despite 4 worldwide hits, amd even additional singles, D&P sold far less than its competitors that hadn't that much hits. [Edited 9/12/21 4:28am] [Edited 9/12/21 4:28am]

Which should make you wonder about these numbers.

There was always a shadiness surrounding Prince's chart numbers and per unit sales.

muleFunk said:

Which should make you wonder about these numbers.

There was always a shadiness surrounding Prince's chart numbers and per unit sales.

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Oh look, the conspiracy nuts are there. It's never Prince's fault, it's always someone else's and preferably it was some shady business designed to take down the "all-powerful Prince".

Coming for certain members of the United States of Afrika populace...990 unreleased Prince songs, with the Undertaker "extended" album up first...

THIS AIN'T NO RUMOR...THIS IS ACTUAL FACT!

How you get the songs...you may have to do a lot of community service or something to hear them and even then...if you're not part of the NA KHI/OSU collective/Protectorate system, you won't get to keep the songs, though you'll get to hear all eventual...10,000+ Prince songs...

Given how Prince was treated by w---- guys and even some w---- girls...no offense...they won't get to hear them at all(guys)...girls(racist or not)...YOU STILL WON'T GET TO KEEP THEM or even hear all of them!

ALL HIp-----'S OPTION!

Other "races" of people...it's my option whether you get it or not...I'm hearing of stories of a GRENADE being thrown toward Prince, during the "Nude" tour(2 people DIED)...and the YAKUZA targeting Prince, when he was over there! So...pretty much...Prince's new music...(20,000+ songs...OOPS...did I say 20,000+ Prince songs or 10,000+ Prince songs? You can go back a little and read...ANYWAY! I'm also, hearing that Prince Rogers (my last name was his real last name) was actually BOOED at half of his concerts AND NOT BY BLACK PEOPLE(who loved him from the beginning)! pRiNCe's music is for his Family(BLACK/aFrICAN people)!

Prince is FOREVER!

New Futurians...Vizions...Peace(especially to James L. Wilson and the Protectorate) and like P said..."Be Wild"..."NOTHING can stop....!" This NEW GENERATION!