jfenster said:

JorisE73 said:

I also think it was more likely a rumor back then (I can't remember the Dutch music mag name that it was in but an orger named blackguitarist posted the same US article not to long ago on a topic here)
What I found striking is that at that time (around '85) the name Katrina's Paper Dolls wasn't known to anyone and only confirmed many years later to be a song title.

Maybe your thinking of "A Dolls House"

No it was definitely Katrina's Paper Dolls because I had this title among my notes from the 80s from the Dutch music mag and then a decade later it was confirmed by Uptown/Per Nilssen.
I also saw the US mag article with that name and that surprised me back then.

Se7en said:

It would not be a bad idea for Michael Howe to reach out for fan input. A limited-time Q&A session on social media. I'm not sure how that would play out, but it could be fun. More likely would be a "poll" that we could submit with our top requests.

Prince did something similar with Crystal Ball 2, but it never came out.

As far as i heard a lot of serius collectors don't trust him, his knowledge and the words coming out of his mouth.

Se7en said:

It would not be a bad idea for Michael Howe to reach out for fan input. A limited-time Q&A session on social media. I'm not sure how that would play out, but it could be fun. More likely would be a "poll" that we could submit with our top requests.

Prince did something similar with Crystal Ball 2, but it never came out.

MAybe. Except, knowing this board he'd get 1000 different answers and configurations.

Only consensus seems to be "more live material, please"

[Edited 7/13/21 4:31am]

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

Since expensive boxsets might not want to include 3 or 4 versions of the same record, I can think only of 2 things: niche releases thru an online store (Bandcamp or on the Prince website) aimed at hardcore fans, or limited RSD releases (maybe followed by a digital and/or streaming release some time later, or including a download code at least).

.

How many bloody times do I need to bring up the example of Stooges box sets that include EVERY KNOWN SECOND OF STUDIO RECORDINGS? Including studio chatter etc. and dozens of takes of the same songs? For the Stooges, a band that sold a fraction of what Prince sold.

.

They could easily do comprehensive box sets with multiple versions; hell, I'd even appreciate cassette sourced versions if proper mixdowns aren't available (they can try to recreate those from the multi-tracks, but I'd be more interested in the actual tapes from that era). Go the Bob Dylan route, where there are several levels of box sets, and make the expensive ones worth it by including tons of music instead of including a bleh book and improperly documented tracks.

-

It even happened with certain The Beatles recordings.

Radiohead released the Minidiscs - a 17 hour deep dive into the OK Computer recordings process - imediately online after it was hacked, for free.

-

I fully agree Bart, specially on the ''improperly documented tracks''.

-

Thing is when you compare The Stooges in this, they don't have such a 'vault quantity' to maintain (and firgure out what is what), and not a Paisley Park to keep up and running imho

-

JorisE73 said:

I really think this was just something he was toying with and nothing sequenced, especially if he wanted W&L to produce the album.
A bit like those album advertised for the NPGMC (Last December, Teh Best of , Madrid 2 Chicago) I don't think any of these albums exist other then what he was planning.

-

Exactly.

But again, never say never in a Prince world.

I remember when Xpectation was released, no one really knew about this by then

-

To me, it seems that his so-called mysteries and announcements were often nothing more than ideas.

Or him just trying to estimate it through bragging and instant proposals.

-

lustmealways said:

gonna have to +1 the cassette mixdowns. if they found a way to release these alongside the ones from the masters i would go for the cassette mixdowns all the way. bold generation, for instance, has a certain feeling to it that none of the other tracks on the 1999 sde do, not to mention the historical value in listening to the music as it was intended v.s. whatever the estate's latest MO is

-

Fully agree.

-

herb4 said:

When Howe happens upon these different things, I wonder how he knows the song titles sometimes? I dooubt Prince put a tracklist label on everything all the time but maybe he did.

-

His engeneers did that.

See the vault pictures, and you'll see bascially everything is at least basic-labeled and named.

All the different handwritings show all the engeneers.

-

That would probably be an exercise in futility.

He's been through that vault, top to bottom by now. He and the Estate knows what's in there.

Additionally, he's probably reading this thread too.

Vannormal said:

herb4 said:

When Howe happens upon these different things, I wonder how he knows the song titles sometimes? I dooubt Prince put a tracklist label on everything all the time but maybe he did.

-

His engeneers did that.

See the vault pictures, and you'll see bascially everything is at least basic-labeled and named.

All the different handwritings show all the engeneers.

-

Didn't Howe say in an interview that a lot items were mislabeled, either because Prince reused the tape or just out of sloppiness? I thought he said that was one of the things slowing the process, when they'd come across obviously mislabed stuff and need to figure out what it was.

lurker316 said:

Vannormal said:

-

His engeneers did that.

See the vault pictures, and you'll see bascially everything is at least basic-labeled and named.

All the different handwritings show all the engeneers.

-

Didn't Howe say in an interview that a lot items were mislabeled, either because Prince reused the tape or just out of sloppiness? I thought he said that was one of the things slowing the process, when they'd come across obviously mislabed stuff and need to figure out what it was.

-

I can't remember excatly where iether, but he kind of metioned it indeed.

But considder Prince did just that...

He might've been sloppy once in the beginning of his career, when he did it all on his own.

But mostly when in the recording studio, he was the one to demand ''fresh tape''.

Meaning others had to do it, and to 'name' it, so he he lateron could ask for it.

Indeed after five years, they should've organised that vault by now.

If not, what the hell do they do there ?

I mean even ONE person can do that in five years.

-

Vannormal said:

lurker316 said:

Didn't Howe say in an interview that a lot items were mislabeled, either because Prince reused the tape or just out of sloppiness? I thought he said that was one of the things slowing the process, when they'd come across obviously mislabed stuff and need to figure out what it was.

-

I can't remember excatly where iether, but he kind of metioned it indeed.

But considder Prince did just that...

He might've been sloppy once in the beginning of his career, when he did it all on his own.

But mostly when in the recording studio, he was the one to demand ''fresh tape''.

Meaning others had to do it, and to 'name' it, so he he lateron could ask for it.

Indeed after five years, they should've organised that vault by now.

If not, what the hell do they do there ?

I mean even ONE person can do that in five years.

-

I suppose. But if Prince was genuinly obsessive about recording everything -- every live show, every rehearsal, etc. -- that would take years to get through.

VaultCurator said:

Regarding Underground / Rave Unto The Joy Fantastic there is something that has been nagging me. There appears to be conficting information as to which direction the album was developed in.

For ages I’ve gone by PrinceVault.com’s account that the early configurations of ‘Rave’ included songs such as…

‘The Voice Inside’

‘Stimulation’

‘Elephants & Flowers’

… and that the final configuration was the one noted on the piece of paper that includes…

‘Good Judy Girlfriend’

‘Pink Cashmere’

‘Electric Chair’

‘Am I Without You’

‘Moonbeam Levels’.

However, going by this thread from 2003 ‘https://prince.org/msg/7/69165’ Neversin and BorisFishpaw are saying that the opposite is true. That the configuration that ends with Moonbeam Levels is the ‘Underground’ tape and the first configuration in the timeline. As such songs like ‘The Voice Inside’ and ‘Stimulation’ were never dropped, but were included as development went on.

To avoid confusion I’ll refer to the sequences that include ‘The Voice Inside’ as “Rave”, and the version that include ‘Good Judy Girlfriend’ as “Underground”.

I’ve tried cross referencing what we know about the recording dates with the sequencing dates, unfortunately that doesn’t tell is anything definitive either.

According to Prince Vault the exact recording dates for the ‘Rave’ tracks are more definitive…

Stimulation: 8 September 1987 (but updated 6 October 1988)

Elephants & Flowers: 6 October 1988
The Voice Inside: 25 October 1988

… however the dates on a couple of the “Underground” tracks are more vague…

Electric Chair: 6 June 1988

Am I Without U?: Late 1988

Good Judy Girlfriend: Late 1988 - early January 1989.

If the date Neversin stated that Underground was sequenced is correct (18th October 1988) then his version of the timeline must be correct as ‘The Voice Inside’ wouldn’t have been recorded until the following week.

However, according to Prince Vault, the first configuration or Rave wasn’t put together until ‘27th October 1988’ (two days after the recording of Voice Inside), so their version of the timeline could also be correct.

So which is the real timeline?

Either way is feasible, but I’m personally leaning towards Neversin & BorisFishpaw’s version of the timeline.

Here are my reasons for why…
1) They state that they own copies of these tapes which have dates on them. Now it’s possible that the dates on the tapes may have been incorrect, but there are other factors to consider.
2) Prince had considered ‘Moonbeam Levels’ for inclusion on at least four albums prior to ‘Rave’ and always ended up removing it before the final track list was sequence. Did he really break the habit of a lifetime on this one occasion?
3) The fact that there are two tapes with the “Rave” tracks implies that Prince was happy with the song choices, but he needed more time to settle on the running order. Note that he did the same thing with the July version of Dream Factory.
4) The exact recording dates for ‘Am I Without U?’ and ‘Good Judy Girlfriend’ are unknown, however I have a hunch that the reason Prince Vault has them listed as Late ‘88 (to early 89) is based on the assumption that “Underground” is the later sequence, not the earliest one.

If anyone can shed some more light on this please feel free, but right now I’m more inclined to believe that the final sequence was…

Side One:

01. Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic

02. If I Had A Harem

03. Melody Cool

04. Stimulation

Side Two:

05. Elephants & Flowers

06. The Voice Inside

07. God Is Alive

08. Still Would Stand All Time

[Edited 7/11/21 18:49pm]

Always so precise, I love it!

lurker316 said:

Vannormal said:

-

I can't remember excatly where iether, but he kind of metioned it indeed.

But considder Prince did just that...

He might've been sloppy once in the beginning of his career, when he did it all on his own.

But mostly when in the recording studio, he was the one to demand ''fresh tape''.

Meaning others had to do it, and to 'name' it, so he he lateron could ask for it.

Indeed after five years, they should've organised that vault by now.

If not, what the hell do they do there ?

I mean even ONE person can do that in five years.

-

I suppose. But if Prince was genuinly obsessive about recording everything -- every live show, every rehearsal, etc. -- that would take years to get through.

Well, I suppose the 64 million dollar question is, even if he did record every single show, Did he keep them all? His primary purpose for the live show recordings tended to be immediate playback for quality control. If he genuinely had audio and video of every show then the physical footprint would outstrip the studio material and nothing from the Park photos suggests a stockpile of them.

The secondary storage room that contained a lot more video/film projects didn't seem to have stacks of tour dates either. They could be stored off site of course, or simply recorded over or disposed.

That's a good question/point actually. I have to think there's some really well done professional quality live stuff sitting around in there but, then again, his official releases don't really demonstrate that and he was also forced to re-record the SoTT movie because of the bad quality of the original.

You might be right though and maybe he just played fast and loose with those recordings.

herb4 said:

That's a good question/point actually. I have to think there's some really well done professional quality live stuff sitting around in there but, then again, his official releases don't really demonstrate that and he was also forced to re-record the SoTT movie because of the bad quality of the original.

You might be right though and maybe he just played fast and loose with those recordings.

The original SOTT footage was fine but didn't mix well with the extra (close up) footage he shot at Paisley Park that's why he reshot most of it.

SquirrelMeat said:

lurker316 said:

I suppose. But if Prince was genuinly obsessive about recording everything -- every live show, every rehearsal, etc. -- that would take years to get through.

Well, I suppose the 64 million dollar question is, even if he did record every single show, Did he keep them all? His primary purpose for the live show recordings tended to be immediate playback for quality control. If he genuinely had audio and video of every show then the physical footprint would outstrip the studio material and nothing from the Park photos suggests a stockpile of them.

The secondary storage room that contained a lot more video/film projects didn't seem to have stacks of tour dates either. They could be stored off site of course, or simply recorded over or disposed.

This is the only question that matter for me. It would be great if someone could get this answer form Michael Howe. Is there all the rehearsals/live shows/aftershows on audiotapes somewhere or not?

JorisE73 said:

herb4 said:

That's a good question/point actually. I have to think there's some really well done professional quality live stuff sitting around in there but, then again, his official releases don't really demonstrate that and he was also forced to re-record the SoTT movie because of the bad quality of the original.

You might be right though and maybe he just played fast and loose with those recordings.

The original SOTT footage was fine but didn't mix well with the extra (close up) footage he shot at Paisley Park that's why he reshot most of it.

Oh. I had read that it was unusable due to low quality. thanks

herb4 said:

JorisE73 said:

The original SOTT footage was fine but didn't mix well with the extra (close up) footage he shot at Paisley Park that's why he reshot most of it.

Oh. I had read that it was unusable due to low quality. thanks

I don't think they completely discarded the original footage. You can actually see some of the grainy footage mixed in with the better quality footage.

Milty2 said:

herb4 said:

Oh. I had read that it was unusable due to low quality. thanks

I don't think they completely discarded the original footage. You can actually see some of the grainy footage mixed in with the better quality footage.

True. Forever in My Life being the most obvious example.

SquirrelMeat said:

lurker316 said:

I suppose. But if Prince was genuinly obsessive about recording everything -- every live show, every rehearsal, etc. -- that would take years to get through.

Well, I suppose the 64 million dollar question is, even if he did record every single show, Did he keep them all? His primary purpose for the live show recordings tended to be immediate playback for quality control. If he genuinely had audio and video of every show then the physical footprint would outstrip the studio material and nothing from the Park photos suggests a stockpile of them.

The secondary storage room that contained a lot more video/film projects didn't seem to have stacks of tour dates either. They could be stored off site of course, or simply recorded over or disposed.

There is not one person doing the archiving, but a whole team, and there is/was more than one vault. Sorry to sound like Bort but both of those have been covered before

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

...as he seems to be relying on stumbling upon them! Likewie a list of DVDs, out-takes etc. He could just look at the Sabotage discography perhaps?!

I don't think he's relying on "stumbling upon them."

He know what albums exist and are LOOKING for the albums in some sort of sequence in the vault to help confirm that Prince wanted those songs together. There is a lot of material and when you come across a pressing of Welcome 2 America, it gives the Estate direction on what to release and what was a completed vision.

herb4 said:

Milty2 said:

I don't think they completely discarded the original footage. You can actually see some of the grainy footage mixed in with the better quality footage.

True. Forever in My Life being the most obvious example.

And parts of ICNTTPOYM, I think. Prince is miming along on the guitar during the jazzy interlude in that song.

EDIT: I mean, it's the new footage over the original live soundtrack from the original footage.

[Edited 7/21/21 2:46am]

It is just marketing, he didn't stumble on anything and he is surely well aware of all the other sequienced albums that exist. It is not the hardcore fans he is catering to, it is the general masses he is trying to garner interest from with these statements. Next year we will hear how he stumbled across Dream Factory, Crystal Ball, Camille, High, etc, etc, so on a so forth. It is laughable to us, but I guess fiction is what they chose to go with when describing the discovery of this album.

When I win the Powerball, I will buy The Vault (and Paisley Park) and assemble a select team of Org members and the musicians who actually worked for Prince! We'll free the music!

Until then . . .

Se7en said: