JudasSmile said:

TrivialPursuit said:

You guys act like Michael Howe, who has probably literally touched everything in the famous vault doesn't know what's in front of him! The dude's job is to fucking catalog things. That means, listen to it, make notes, make a list, a fucking spreadsheet, starts an Access database or whatever to forever keep these things in check.

I doubt he has completed cataloguing the whole archive yet, if it is only him doing it. After the music, there is all the video cassettes, notes, etc. Assuming Prince never replaced or threw anything out, the stuff that isn't damaged beyond repair must be a huge archive. We won't live long enough to hear 10% of it, unless the estate increase their output.

I agree with TrivialPursuit on the fact that it is indeed absurd to suggest giving bootlegs to people who have access to the recordings that were the basis of said bootlegs. Now I agree that having access to the inventory and the material doesn't necessarily gives a full sense of what's important to someone who wasn't a Prince expert/hardcore fan beforehand. But M. Howe has Duane, who knows as much as anyone here about what's circulating and what's legendary or interesting, and M. Howe is aware of Princevault and bootlegs, too.

.

Hell, he even dug out that South African edit of The Cross that neither my website nor Princevault had listed at the time! Kudos for that at least!

.

The 2 main problems so far were not poor choice of content, but the liberties taken with some mixes, and the lack of quality control overall. And, of course, for us poor sods, the fact that indeed, there is way too much to release for us to hope to hear it all in our lifetime at the pace they're going now. Problem is the Estate is no charity, it's a business: even if you post a video on YT from your deathbed, with the ravaged appearance of someone who has terminal cancer, begging them to allow you to hear The Divine before you die, they can (and will likely) shrug you off.

[Edited 7/8/21 16:14pm]

TrivialPursuit said:

You guys act like Michael Howe, who has probably literally touched everything in the famous vault doesn't know what's in front of him! The dude's job is to fucking catalog things. That means, listen to it, make notes, make a list, a fucking spreadsheet, starts an Access database or whatever to forever keep these things in check.

The fact that you know sixteen versions of "Computer Blue" exist doesn't mean anything to Howe or the estate. They know what we know, 100 times over.

Y'all think that someone, many, or just one person, doesn't have the same level of fandom a few folks on the Org do? that we're somehow more enlightened to all things Prince, and the very people taking care of his legacy (including music, clothes, property, etc) are just bumbling around over there?

All those things in the Sabatoge discography, as it were, came from many sources. Howe is at ground zero. All those songs we've traded and called our own when we probably shouldn't have but did anyway, Howe has heard the original. He's heard the master tape. He's written it down, sorted it. Knows more about it than any Per Nilsen, Duane Tudahl, Dave Hill, Alan Light, Toure, or Alex Hahn (not that any of those guys are uninformed, clearly most did their homework as best they could at the time) knows?

Just because they know we know what exists doesn't obligate them to releasing it to us. I could walk up to Paisley Park and yell, "I know you have those 'Raspberry Beret' cloud boots in there!" Doesn't mean they're going to run out and say, "Yessur, here they are just for you!"

Fans needs to just have a seat. Simmah do'n nah!

I agree with this. Howe has the vault at his fingertips, we do not.

as databank pointed out, it's not a matter of access. there are many fans who have been around a whole hell of a lot longer than michael howe and have their finger on the pulse more than him. anyone can look at a spreadsheet and catalog, but it takes years of hands on experience before you really know anything.

TrivialPursuit said:

You guys act like Michael Howe, who has probably literally touched everything in the famous vault doesn't know what's in front of him! The dude's job is to fucking catalog things. That means, listen to it, make notes, make a list, a fucking spreadsheet, starts an Access database or whatever to forever keep these things in check.

The fact that you know sixteen versions of "Computer Blue" exist doesn't mean anything to Howe or the estate. They know what we know, 100 times over.

Y'all think that someone, many, or just one person, doesn't have the same level of fandom a few folks on the Org do? that we're somehow more enlightened to all things Prince, and the very people taking care of his legacy (including music, clothes, property, etc) are just bumbling around over there?

All those things in the Sabatoge discography, as it were, came from many sources. Howe is at ground zero. All those songs we've traded and called our own when we probably shouldn't have but did anyway, Howe has heard the original. He's heard the master tape. He's written it down, sorted it. Knows more about it than any Per Nilsen, Duane Tudahl, Dave Hill, Alan Light, Toure, or Alex Hahn (not that any of those guys are uninformed, clearly most did their homework as best they could at the time) knows?

Just because they know we know what exists doesn't obligate them to releasing it to us. I could walk up to Paisley Park and yell, "I know you have those 'Raspberry Beret' cloud boots in there!" Doesn't mean they're going to run out and say, "Yessur, here they are just for you!"

Fans needs to just have a seat. Simmah do'n nah!

You are giving him wayyyyyyyy too much credit. His job is to find/pull requested tapes and help identify material that's in danger and in need of immediate preservation. (Which explains all the surprises we've been getting from way early in Prince's career like the acoustic demo of I Feel For You, the 81 version of Wouldn't You Love To Love Me, the 79 version of I Could Never Take The Place. That's all fragile stuff that needs to be preserved sooner rather than later)

.

Dumbass heard somebody else mention the boot of Piano & A Microphone 1983 then did a needle in a haystack search until he found the original cassette and acted like he found the holy grail. And the lesson he took from that isn't that there's a bunch of piano sessions like that or that it was a terrible choice for the first posthumous release, it's that people were mad because it was already out there. To the point that's the first thing he mentions in interviews now. "Here's how I went out of my way to pick something that wasn't circulating"

.

Sure he's heard alot of stuff that we haven't but that doesn't make him some expert on Prince.

.

I'm sure if somebody ever cornered him and told him about the November 19 2004 three and a half hour recording session that yielded some of the best tracks from 3 different late era albums, he'd look at you like

.

Because there's so much material to sift through.

[Edited 7/8/21 15:19pm]

michael howe couldn't hum "XYZ" if you sat down at his table at starbucks as he was sipping his drink and demanded he did so

jfenster said:

There was also mention of an 1985 album called Underground

I think it was a name bootleggers provided. What was going round on tape with that name were two instrumental tracks (Being from Jesse Johnson breakfast club songs) and crystal ball with the underground lyric.

dualboot said:

jfenster said:

There was also mention of an 1985 album called Underground

I think it was a name bootleggers provided. What was going round on tape with that name were two instrumental tracks (Being from Jesse Johnson breakfast club songs) and crystal ball with the underground lyric.

years ago a pic of a cassette with a Rave tracklist was posted somewhere with the title Underground on the cassette spine.

From a old thread here with that same tracklist:

"Underground" aka "Rave Unto The Joy Fantastic":

1. "Rave Unto The Joy Fantastic"
2. "If Had A Harem"
3. "Good Judy Girlfriend"
4. "Pink Cashmere"
5. "Electric Chair"
6. "Am I Without U"
7. "God Is Alive"
8. "Still Would Stand All Time"
9. "Moonbeam Levels"

JorisE73 said:

dualboot said:

I think it was a name bootleggers provided. What was going round on tape with that name were two instrumental tracks (Being from Jesse Johnson breakfast club songs) and crystal ball with the underground lyric.

years ago a pic of a cassette with a Rave tracklist was posted somewhere with the title Underground on the cassette spine.

From a old thread here with that same tracklist:

"Underground" aka "Rave Unto The Joy Fantastic":

1. "Rave Unto The Joy Fantastic"
2. "If Had A Harem"
3. "Good Judy Girlfriend"
4. "Pink Cashmere"
5. "Electric Chair"
6. "Am I Without U"
7. "God Is Alive"
8. "Still Would Stand All Time"
9. "Moonbeam Levels"

9. "Moonbeam Levels" >>> I'd wish to know if the song is the initial track done in 82 or a revamped version for this 88/89 era project Album?

love2thenines2003 said:

JorisE73 said:

years ago a pic of a cassette with a Rave tracklist was posted somewhere with the title Underground on the cassette spine.

From a old thread here with that same tracklist:

"Underground" aka "Rave Unto The Joy Fantastic":

1. "Rave Unto The Joy Fantastic"
2. "If Had A Harem"
3. "Good Judy Girlfriend"
4. "Pink Cashmere"
5. "Electric Chair"
6. "Am I Without U"
7. "God Is Alive"
8. "Still Would Stand All Time"
9. "Moonbeam Levels"

9. "Moonbeam Levels" >>> I'd wish to know if the song is the initial track done in 82 or a revamped version for this 88/89 era project Album?

Ask the guy who has that tape and posted this info

JorisE73 said:

love2thenines2003 said:

9. "Moonbeam Levels" >>> I'd wish to know if the song is the initial track done in 82 or a revamped version for this 88/89 era project Album?

Ask the guy who has that tape and posted this info

If i ask the Person (N) that are both thinking about .....no way i will get an answer ...maybe a Fuck Off......it is a pity because i have much respect for him & his knowledge....and iam not at all Jealous for even 1 penny for what he owns !

[Edited 7/9/21 2:34am]

When Howe happens upon these different things, I wonder how he knows the song titles sometimes? I dooubt Prince put a tracklist label on everything all the time but maybe he did.

herb4 said:

When Howe happens upon these different things, I wonder how he knows the song titles sometimes? I dooubt Prince put a tracklist label on everything all the time but maybe he did.

I think this would more likely be the case with instrumentals. The majority of Prince songs have the title in the chorus. There are exceptions and songs with ambiguous titles which is why we had "moonbeam levels" called a better place to die and "in a large room with no light" called welcome 2 the rat race. Even though both mention the titles in the song you can understand the confusion. "The ballad of dorothy parker" could have easily just called dorothy parker if you were listening to it.

Was Prince sloppy with his labelling, yes I am sure he was. If we end up having to guess a name it is not the end of the world. Prince may have put on "unhelpful" labels if he was working quickly with transitional titles like "James Brown groove" or "almond joy", "Kim Kardasian dance marathon" I am just making up titles, but trying to think of things he may have put as in jokes or temporary titles and not got back too. For example if he jammed for three hours with the NPG power trio he wasn't stopping every five minutes to label a riff or a song, and just may have called it "Jelly jam" or "Fear the Undertaker" and dated it as June 7th for example. My point being cataloguing is a dream job for us but it would be HARD to do well. It would be like finding all the insects in the Amazon Rain Forest and accurately cataloguing them.

JudasSmile said:

TrivialPursuit said:

You guys act like Michael Howe, who has probably literally touched everything in the famous vault doesn't know what's in front of him! The dude's job is to fucking catalog things. That means, listen to it, make notes, make a list, a fucking spreadsheet, starts an Access database or whatever to forever keep these things in check.

I doubt he has completed cataloguing the whole archive yet, if it is only him doing it. After the music, there is all the video cassettes, notes, etc. Assuming Prince never replaced or threw anything out, the stuff that isn't damaged beyond repair must be a huge archive. We won't live long enough to hear 10% of it, unless the estate increase their output.

.

all of this. plus theres lots more to just finding things. it has to be determined if tapes are still in good enough shape to be played, or if they have to be baked to even just hope they will survive a run through. plus a part of cataloging a vault like this should include archiving to presrve whats there, which again is a long process when old media is involved. its a huge undertaking. you dont just walk in, grab a tape from 35 years ago and hit play, you could destroy it. people need to quit bitchin.

[Edited 7/10/21 11:02am]

databank said:

JudasSmile said:

I doubt he has completed cataloguing the whole archive yet, if it is only him doing it. After the music, there is all the video cassettes, notes, etc. Assuming Prince never replaced or threw anything out, the stuff that isn't damaged beyond repair must be a huge archive. We won't live long enough to hear 10% of it, unless the estate increase their output.

I agree with TrivialPursuit on the fact that it is indeed absurd to suggest giving bootlegs to people who have access to the recordings that were the basis of said bootlegs. Now I agree that having access to the inventory and the material doesn't necessarily gives a full sense of what's important to someone who wasn't a Prince expert/hardcore fan beforehand. But M. Howe has Duane, who knows as much as anyone here about what's circulating and what's legendary or interesting, and M. Howe is aware of Princevault and bootlegs, too.

.

Hell, he even dug out that South African edit of The Cross that neither my website nor Princevault had listed at the time! Kudos for that at least!

.

The 2 main problems so far were not poor choice of content, but the liberties taken with some mixes, and the lack of quality control overall. And, of course, for us poor sods, the fact that indeed, there is way too much to release for us to hope to hear it all in our lifetime at the pace they're going now. Problem is the Estate is no charity, it's a business: even if you post a video on YT from your deathbed, with the ravaged appearance of someone who has terminal cancer, begging them to allow you to hear The Divine before you die, they can (and will likely) shrug you off.

[Edited 7/8/21 16:14pm]

I have a lot of sympathy for what you say here. However, there is a silver lining. Because it IS a business, everyone involved is keenly aware of who Prince's main fanbase is, namely, the people who grew up with his music. In the past two decades, the pace of release of all of Dylan's unreleased material increased enormously, and he is still alive! Now, that may be a function of his needing additional money, but it's also a function of intelligent business, since the diehards who would buy those releases are aging with him, give or take ten years.

Were Prince alive today, he would be a few years into his 60s, and his main fansin the next decade will very likely be in their 50s, 60s and even 70s. I suspect that in the next five years, the pace will start accelerating rapidly and we will get much more access in order to maximize the value of the most arcane material. It's far and few millenials who are going mad for that stuff, I think, though I am one of them.

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

JorisE73 said:

love2thenines2003 said:

9. "Moonbeam Levels" >>> I'd wish to know if the song is the initial track done in 82 or a revamped version for this 88/89 era project Album?

Ask the guy who has that tape and posted this info

The tape is unique in its sequencing and a reason it's not generally shared given the fact bootleggers would degrade it and profit off of it

sad but true

jumptheysaid said:

TrivialPursuit said:

You guys act like Michael Howe, who has probably literally touched everything in the famous vault doesn't know what's in front of him! The dude's job is to fucking catalog things. That means, listen to it, make notes, make a list, a fucking spreadsheet, starts an Access database or whatever to forever keep these things in check.

The fact that you know sixteen versions of "Computer Blue" exist doesn't mean anything to Howe or the estate. They know what we know, 100 times over.

Y'all think that someone, many, or just one person, doesn't have the same level of fandom a few folks on the Org do? that we're somehow more enlightened to all things Prince, and the very people taking care of his legacy (including music, clothes, property, etc) are just bumbling around over there?

All those things in the Sabatoge discography, as it were, came from many sources. Howe is at ground zero. All those songs we've traded and called our own when we probably shouldn't have but did anyway, Howe has heard the original. He's heard the master tape. He's written it down, sorted it. Knows more about it than any Per Nilsen, Duane Tudahl, Dave Hill, Alan Light, Toure, or Alex Hahn (not that any of those guys are uninformed, clearly most did their homework as best they could at the time) knows?

Just because they know we know what exists doesn't obligate them to releasing it to us. I could walk up to Paisley Park and yell, "I know you have those 'Raspberry Beret' cloud boots in there!" Doesn't mean they're going to run out and say, "Yessur, here they are just for you!"

Fans needs to just have a seat. Simmah do'n nah!

Black is the New Black. as a starter.

P&M live from Paisley Park as number 2 etc.

Done, completed, in the can , ready to roll!

paisleypark4 said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

...as he seems to be relying on stumbling upon them! Likewie a list of DVDs, out-takes etc. He could just look at the Sabotage discography perhaps?!

If I was Howe and I saw this thread I would have sai to myself, "how they going to try and TELL me whats in here when I'm listening to the shit". As if he is some kind of novice.

well...it's more the nonsense he comes out with...like he has made some magic discovery that NONE of us have heard of. Credibility ain't that great....

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

Since expensive boxsets might not want to include 3 or 4 versions of the same record, I can think only of 2 things: niche releases thru an online store (Bandcamp or on the Prince website) aimed at hardcore fans, or limited RSD releases (maybe followed by a digital and/or streaming release some time later, or including a download code at least).

.

How many bloody times do I need to bring up the example of Stooges box sets that include EVERY KNOWN SECOND OF STUDIO RECORDINGS? Including studio chatter etc. and dozens of takes of the same songs? For the Stooges, a band that sold a fraction of what Prince sold.

.

They could easily do comprehensive box sets with multiple versions; hell, I'd even appreciate cassette sourced versions if proper mixdowns aren't available (they can try to recreate those from the multi-tracks, but I'd be more interested in the actual tapes from that era). Go the Bob Dylan route, where there are several levels of box sets, and make the expensive ones worth it by including tons of music instead of including a bleh book and improperly documented tracks.

simple as that really. It can be done & it can be done online.

JorisE73 said:

Vannormal said:

-

Probably the idea of a project excisted.

And a couple of recorded songs. But most possibly no whole album imho.

Although I/we could be wrong.

Nor Lisa or Wendy ever mentioned it as a completed album.

Neither did the other Revolution members.

We know Prince mentioned it somehwere mid 2000, but that's about it.

-

the only reported album title with The Revolution was Katrina's Paper Dolls which was reported simultaneously in a US and a Dutch music magazine bacj in 84/85 or so.

Hi Joris.

I’ve done a few Google searches trying to find a copy of this magazine article, or even a reference to it and I’m coming up with zilch. If anyone knows of / has a copy of this article then please share as I’d like to read more into this.

Personally, I’m really skeptical about this alegid LP. Unless something more substancial surfaces I’m chalking that one up to nothing more than a rumour.

Regarding Underground / Rave Unto The Joy Fantastic there is something that has been nagging me. There appears to be conficting information as to which direction the album was developed in.

For ages I’ve gone by PrinceVault.com’s account that the early configurations of ‘Rave’ included songs such as…

‘The Voice Inside’

‘Stimulation’

‘Elephants & Flowers’

… and that the final configuration was the one noted on the piece of paper that includes…

‘Good Judy Girlfriend’

‘Pink Cashmere’

‘Electric Chair’

‘Am I Without You’

‘Moonbeam Levels’.

However, going by this thread from 2003 ‘https://prince.org/msg/7/69165’ Neversin and BorisFishpaw are saying that the opposite is true. That the configuration that ends with Moonbeam Levels is the ‘Underground’ tape and the first configuration in the timeline. As such songs like ‘The Voice Inside’ and ‘Stimulation’ were never dropped, but were included as development went on.

To avoid confusion I’ll refer to the sequences that include ‘The Voice Inside’ as “Rave”, and the version that include ‘Good Judy Girlfriend’ as “Underground”.

I’ve tried cross referencing what we know about the recording dates with the sequencing dates, unfortunately that doesn’t tell is anything definitive either.

According to Prince Vault the exact recording dates for the ‘Rave’ tracks are more definitive…

Stimulation: 8 September 1987 (but updated 6 October 1988)

Elephants & Flowers: 6 October 1988
The Voice Inside: 25 October 1988

… however the dates on a couple of the “Underground” tracks are more vague…

Electric Chair: 6 June 1988

Am I Without U?: Late 1988

Good Judy Girlfriend: Late 1988 - early January 1989.

If the date Neversin stated that Underground was sequenced is correct (18th October 1988) then his version of the timeline must be correct as ‘The Voice Inside’ wouldn’t have been recorded until the following week.

However, according to Prince Vault, the first configuration or Rave wasn’t put together until ‘27th October 1988’ (two days after the recording of Voice Inside), so their version of the timeline could also be correct.

So which is the real timeline?

Either way is feasible, but I’m personally leaning towards Neversin & BorisFishpaw’s version of the timeline.

Here are my reasons for why…
1) They state that they own copies of these tapes which have dates on them. Now it’s possible that the dates on the tapes may have been incorrect, but there are other factors to consider.
2) Prince had considered ‘Moonbeam Levels’ for inclusion on at least four albums prior to ‘Rave’ and always ended up removing it before the final track list was sequence. Did he really break the habit of a lifetime on this one occasion?
3) The fact that there are two tapes with the “Rave” tracks implies that Prince was happy with the song choices, but he needed more time to settle on the running order. Note that he did the same thing with the July version of Dream Factory.
4) The exact recording dates for ‘Am I Without U?’ and ‘Good Judy Girlfriend’ are unknown, however I have a hunch that the reason Prince Vault has them listed as Late ‘88 (to early 89) is based on the assumption that “Underground” is the later sequence, not the earliest one.

If anyone can shed some more light on this please feel free, but right now I’m more inclined to believe that the final sequence was…

Side One:

01. Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic

02. If I Had A Harem

03. Melody Cool

04. Stimulation

Side Two:

05. Elephants & Flowers

06. The Voice Inside

07. God Is Alive

08. Still Would Stand All Time

[Edited 7/11/21 18:49pm]

VaultCurator said:

JorisE73 said:

the only reported album title with The Revolution was Katrina's Paper Dolls which was reported simultaneously in a US and a Dutch music magazine bacj in 84/85 or so.

Hi Joris.

I’ve done a few Google searches trying to find a copy of this magazine article, or even a reference to it and I’m coming up with zilch. If anyone knows of / has a copy of this article then please share as I’d like to read more into this.

Personally, I’m really skeptical about this alegid LP. Unless something more substancial surfaces I’m chalking that one up to nothing more than a rumour.

I also think it was more likely a rumor back then (I can't remember the Dutch music mag name that it was in but an orger named blackguitarist posted the same US article not to long ago on a topic here)
What I found striking is that at that time (around '85) the name Katrina's Paper Dolls wasn't known to anyone and only confirmed many years later to be a song title.

JorisE73 said:

It would not be a bad idea for Michael Howe to reach out for fan input. A limited-time Q&A session on social media. I'm not sure how that would play out, but it could be fun. More likely would be a "poll" that we could submit with our top requests.

Prince did something similar with Crystal Ball 2, but it never came out.