zobilamouche said:

Milty2 said:

Look there are things that Prince did that I didn't like and there are things that I wish Prince would have done but in the end, none of it matters. Like I said before, Prince probably had the career he wanted. I'm sure he would have wanted a hit or two after 1995 (which he did - I can't even believe that needs to be said). I think he also understood where his place was in the pop world in terms of history and legacy and to be honest, it was all his own design. I'm willing to bet that he was content with how things were.

I do however believe that the last two or three albums were a transition period for him. I feel like he may have been looking for a new sound but he hadn't got there yet hence 3rdeyegirl, Piano and a Microphone, the Hit n Run 1 electro sound then the organic sound of Hit n Run 2 and then Black Is The New Black. Or he was just trying new stuff that appealed to him at the time. We'll actually never ever know.

Well, I don't think he liked it when, dispate all his efforts, he was clearly being moved out of the top spot of the music world. But all attempts and decisions to try to do so were his choice so, yes, I guess he knew what he was doing but wasn't necessarilly happy with the outcome each time.

But as of Musicology he seemed to realise, and be happy, with taking in another position in the music world and business. He clearly enjoyed being that hero from the 80s/90s, he optimized his income withe the give-away albums and linked concerts.

And eventually became more of a support and coach for young talent like 3rdeyegirl.
His piano and microphone was really getting back to the beginning of it all. The passing of Vanity probably brought him even closer to that vantage point.

As Alan Leeds said in the podcast; Maybe he just did all he felt he needed to do.

I dont understand that part in bold. Who was moving him out of the top spot? The fans? The music buying public?

[Edited 1/30/21 6:49am]

NouveauDance said:

It's a mix of reasons isn't. A part of it is the self-sabotage in the 90s. Not just the name change and war on WB, but actively not promoting records. Poor single choices in general, cutting projects short and moving on to the next one only to repeat the same mistakes. The industry being in a different place for an established artist is also just a 'normal' part of a pop artists trajectory. All that together and more.

.

Imagine Come being properly promoted, TV performances and promo videos and having a couple more really strong songs from that era (Interactive, Endorphinemachine etc, take your pick). Same for the Gold Experience, who's singles didn't fair that badly considering, but as an album it had much more to offer and was commercial enough to perform similar to D&P imo. Emancipation too had some good single cuts on it, but it got cut short or wasn't promoted right. Somebody's Somebody? Awesome, commercial, pop and R&B. The Holy River? No, uh-uh.

Yeah, I don't know what he was smoking releasing The Holy River as single number 2. A song with the line "Proud to call his name. Jesus (Jesus)" doesn't exactly have hit written all over it.

Milty2 said:

zobilamouche said:

Well, I don't think he liked it when, dispate all his efforts, he was clearly being moved out of the top spot of the music world. But all attempts and decisions to try to do so were his choice so, yes, I guess he knew what he was doing but wasn't necessarilly happy with the outcome each time.

But as of Musicology he seemed to realise, and be happy, with taking in another position in the music world and business. He clearly enjoyed being that hero from the 80s/90s, he optimized his income withe the give-away albums and linked concerts.

And eventually became more of a support and coach for young talent like 3rdeyegirl.
His piano and microphone was really getting back to the beginning of it all. The passing of Vanity probably brought him even closer to that vantage point.

As Alan Leeds said in the podcast; Maybe he just did all he felt he needed to do.

I dont understand that part in bold. Who was moving him out of the top spot? The fans? The music buying public?

[Edited 1/30/21 6:49am]

The moment where he was no longer seen as the hippest, most current hot ticket in music. In the 80s anything he did or touched was regarded as gold or interesting by the general public but of course the taste of a new younger audience is different and they seek out there own heroes.

MattyJam said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

JayCrawford said:

IAdoreWeronika said:

JayCrawford said:

onlyforaminute said:

I don't know what to call it. But it's weird. In one section of this place you have thread after thread after thread for years discussing how bad the music is generally starting at the late 90s. Then you come over here and it's thread after thread after thread for years discussing how Prince's music couldn't chart like it did in the 80s. Sounds like a schism to me. If bad music is the chosen chart toppers of the time then why be mad Prince wasn't making music so bad to top the charts? The 80s went away.

That's not me. I have most of Nelly's & Destiny's Child's albums and a few by Craig David & Keyshia Cole. I also like some songs by Snoop Dogg, K-Rino, Black Eyed Peas, Limp Bizkit, Cardi B, Bruno Mars, Megan Thee Stallion, Migos, Pharrell, Psy, BTS, Rihanna, Childish Gambino, etc. I think Chris Stapleton, Tami Neilson, & Phony Ppl are pretty good. I really like this song currently played on the radio called Supalonely by Benee. If I don't like something I don't waste time talking about it like some of these "get off my lawn" or "real music by real musicians" people here. I don't get why the people are so concerned about what music someone else likes anyway. It's like one poster on this site had a cow because I put E.T. Storybook over HIStory on a Michael Jackson albums list. He or she claimed that E.T. is not an album and shouldn't count because it doesn't have music on it. If someone enjoys autotune, more power to them. If the music of Justin Beiber or Maroon 5 makes a listener happy, nothing wrong with that. I still like listening to Milli Vanilli, no matter who's singing. I don't believe in "guilty pleasures" because I'm not embarrassed or ashamed about anything I like. I got the threads to prove it too.

MickyDolenz said:

Comment deleted - l'ange bleu - moderator

JayCrawford said:

Comment deleted - l'ange bleu - moderator

JayCrawford said:

I don't recall you ever saying that. But sure.

Comment deleted - l'ange bleu - moderator

NouveauDance said:

It's a mix of reasons isn't. A part of it is the self-sabotage in the 90s. Not just the name change and war on WB, but actively not promoting records. Poor single choices in general, cutting projects short and moving on to the next one only to repeat the same mistakes. The industry being in a different place for an established artist is also just a 'normal' part of a pop artists trajectory. All that together and more.

.

Imagine Come being properly promoted, TV performances and promo videos and having a couple more really strong songs from that era (Interactive, Endorphinemachine etc, take your pick). Same for the Gold Experience, who's singles didn't fair that badly considering, but as an album it had much more to offer and was commercial enough to perform similar to D&P imo. Emancipation too had some good single cuts on it, but it got cut short or wasn't promoted right. Somebody's Somebody? Awesome, commercial, pop and R&B. The Holy River? No, uh-uh.

Emancipation's promotion was cut short because the record label EMI folded right in the middle of it's promotional run. So it really wasn't Prince's(r.i.p.) fault.Otherwise I feel it would have had more longevity.

[Edited 1/31/21 11:44am]

JayCrawford said:

MickyDolenz said:

onlyforaminute said:

I don't know what to call it. But it's weird. In one section of this place you have thread after thread after thread for years discussing how bad the music is generally starting at the late 90s. Then you come over here and it's thread after thread after thread for years discussing how Prince's music couldn't chart like it did in the 80s. Sounds like a schism to me. If bad music is the chosen chart toppers of the time then why be mad Prince wasn't making music so bad to top the charts? The 80s went away.

That's not me. I have most of Nelly's & Destiny's Child's albums and a few by Craig David & Keyshia Cole. I also like some songs by Snoop Dogg, K-Rino, Black Eyed Peas, Limp Bizkit, Cardi B, Bruno Mars, Megan Thee Stallion, Migos, Pharrell, Psy, BTS, Rihanna, Childish Gambino, etc. I think Chris Stapleton, Tami Neilson, & Phony Ppl are pretty good. I really like this song currently played on the radio called Supalonely by Benee. If I don't like something I don't waste time talking about it like some of these "get off my lawn" or "real music by real musicians" people here. I don't get why the people are so concerned about what music someone else likes anyway. It's like one poster on this site had a cow because I put E.T. Storybook over HIStory on a Michael Jackson albums list. He or she claimed that E.T. is not an album and shouldn't count because it doesn't have music on it. If someone enjoys autotune, more power to them. If the music of Justin Beiber or Maroon 5 makes a listener happy, nothing wrong with that. I still like listening to Milli Vanilli, no matter who's singing. I don't believe in "guilty pleasures" because I'm not embarrassed or ashamed about anything I like. I got the threads to prove it too.

It has more to do with what type of music you grew up with and liked in those formative years. They lay the base of whatever you will like later on. For those of us growing up in the 80s, it's not just the music but the part it played in our shaping as a person. The level of impact is bigger than when you're in your late 20s or 30s. I still love some of his 90s output (and don't care much if it was a hit or not) but it never had the same impact.

So people that were born later and started listening to his music from, let's say D&P, this era will be there point of reference, far heavier than the 80s.

And it also applies to Prince. He was a child of his time but built amazing bridges between funk, rock, New Wave sounds, daring lyrics, challenging looks and really kept everyone on their toes. I don't mind that he wasn't the big hit machine anymore in the later 90s and beyond. What is more important is his impact on the younger generation of artists that were inflienced and inspired by him. And as of Musicology on, he clearly embraced that role. In the late 90s he happily showcased his influences by getting part of Sly's band on board, Chaka, Maceo etc.

[Edited 1/31/21 2:32am]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

JayCrawford said:

NoSwan said:

Milty2 said:

"I GOT TOO MANY HITS" — PRINCE

MattyJam said:

This has always baffled me. Contrary to what some people say, I actually think he was still writing music which had huge chart potential. Songs like Wherever U Go Whatever U Do, Somebody's Somebody and Dance 4 Me could've been massive. And I don't buy that Prince didn't care about having a hit, when some of his music from 96-16 was very obviously tailor made to fit in with the contemporary music scene of the time. I don't buy that it's an age issue, because it didn't stop his 80s contemporaries. So what was it that stopped him from having another hit when MJ and Janet still managed a few in the 00s and Madonna continued to achieve an abudance of chart hits until the radios stopped playing her a few years back.

who cares 1995 and onwards were for the fans... with praise from the general music audience every now and then (Musicology tour, 2007 Superbowl..)

Without reading all 4 pages, I don't think it was Prince's fault, chart music in the whole got more and more dumbed down in the 1990s and 2000s (I think some 2010s acts are not as dumb, but plenty of dumb shit like Lil Pump and Bieber in the 2010s too).

.

Prince's music was intelligent and deep in comparison, even a simple dance song like Black Sweat or Dance 4 me was never going to compete next to My Humps or the Macarena. Plus I would blame his bizarre behaviour in the mid 90s - changing your name is funny, but the novelty wears off and when you are not promoting your music (He went through a series of tours where he stopped playing hits and just played all his new stuff - his post 2007 output did well as the 80s hits got played as well!).

.

Plus by 1995 Prince was a huge cult artist with a devoted hardcore of fans that would move at least 200 - 300k per mediocre album and 500k+ of a good one. Only his JW phase of 1998/02 really tested these fans and the Musicology era bought all the goodwill back. The fact remained Prince had systems that ensured continual cash flow and a coterie of hard core fans who would at least buy each new album regardless of how good it was (And most were at least decent and less decent ones had moments of brilliance and some were even great albums) - he did not need hits and constant adulation from fans of Soulja Boy and One direction.

.

I will comment more when I read some more of the other replies.

tab32792 said:

Vannormal said:

-

Compare those mediocre four songs you mentioned and comppare them with the real hits he had earlier on on the top of his game.

There's your answer.

-

Anther more complex answer is a mixture of all this :

-

1. I believe he was desperate for a hit, up until he started to move into the instrumental and jazz directions, towards the end of the nineties.

-

2. Also keep in mind the moniker he named himself with his dispute, the preaching, the complaining about the record industry & money after he signed one of the biggest contracts back then, and a lot of other things that were treated exactly with disinterest, or were just bad choices...

-

3. / 4. / 5. / etc... plus; Prince's über control freakishness, his constant change of mind,

the different labels, bad choices for protégés, and badly maintained great protégés,

uninspired band changes, and not to forget ...

the Larry thing, the jehove thing, the ban of curse words and nastyness, the bad business of Paisley Park, his marriages and the death of his child, the keeping up appearances about that horrifying event of his dead child during the interview with Oprah (poor Mayte), the routine sounding tours later on in his life where he basically lived on only playing hits, barely ever promoting a new album by playing theses songs live, ...

-

9. His relationship with the press in general; first he avoided them, then when things went slow, he all of sa sudden started to do nothing but press and TV, but actually had very little (interesting) to say.

-

10. His hidden drug addiction (not to forget), which probably/possibly had a big influence on all this. Though I'm not an expert.

-

1. Desperate is a reach. If you're in the music world, who wouldn't want a hit? It wasn't that he was desperate. He started noticing a lot of people having hits but didn't feel as if they were talented and didn't play. To each his/her own.

2. You clearly didn't understand what he was doing or why. If you did you wouldn't have said this. It wasn't about the money. He clearly didn't read properly what he was signing, etc. It was about owning your work and doing what you want when and how you want regardless of oversaturation, etc.

3/4/5. A lot of people here are beyond judgemental and holier than though. He was getting older. Exploring religion. So natural progression is change. He didn't wanna curse anymore and he didn't wanna be old as hell doing ridiculous shit for attention anymore. That's fair and fine. It's like yall want people to stay the same...do the same thing, play the same kind of music, play with the same band, etc.

9 i agree here to an extent.

10. It wasn't an actual long term addiction. It was more recent than anything with the hip situation. So using that is not only not fair it don't make sense

-

1. Well then, his attempt with the ''Rave In2 The Joy Fantastic'' album was just that, (deseperately) trying to be on the charts again, the label change (again) to Arista, and the use of the support of it's chairman in the media, etc. But it didn't work. Much later on, 'Musicology' helped a bit for his so called comeback, for the mainstream audience - and to most fans too (I didn't like it that much).

Compare that ('Rave...'') album with the two/three previous and the two/three after that (for instance).

His story of 'real music by real musicians', came later when 'Musicology' started.

These clear sequential situations are noticeable, if you want.

Are they debatable ? ...sure. I am not in possession of the supreme puerple truth. )

2. Serious ? Not reading 'properly'? I would first and formost fire my incapable lawyers for that matter. Prince possibly did not read his own contract, and so what, if he did, he (or his lawyers) did make a mistake, only if they knew that Prince wanted to negotiate his masters, but that came later after he signed the contrat i believe.

3 / 4 / 5 / I don't want to sound judgemental, i'm just summing up what happened, and how it occured to (most older) fans (too). (Maybe my tone was harsch, true.)

Yes he got older, Exploring religion ? He did that all his life, basically on every record from the very beginning. The refusal of cursing was lead by the rules of JW - a choice he let others take/make for him, excecuted by him. Maybe he thougth it was cool to do, who knows. Never liked it.

It was not only imposed by the JW religion, but it also came across as pedantic in his concerts (at least to me).

It's often that specific 'ridiculous shit' that gives one the ability to be famous. Certainly Prince did that; stockings, bikini underwear, sex+religion, incest, rape, masturbation, etc.

No he did not have to be on that level all the time, or throughout his life. Again, that reason was more or less decided for him by his religion at the time.

No one wants Prince to be the same all the time, that IS the reason why we all love him in the first place. His innovative changes and choices. Only were these stronger in the beginning imho.

10. Yes he took (these?) pills already for a very long time. The term 'recent' was longer than ten years iirc.

Being under the influence of painkillers absolutely have an effect on whatever one does.

-

Peace though I like a good debate.

-

[Edited 2/1/21 5:18am]

Purplegarden said:

Prince's music was intelligent and deep in comparison, even a simple dance song like Black Sweat or Dance 4 me was never going to compete next to My Humps or the Macarena.

When has Top 40 ever been about that? Top 40 radio is music that is mainly marketed to teens & young adults. What's deep about The Twist, Jailhouse Rock, Disco Duck, Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep, Speedy Gonzalez, She Loves You, ABC, It's My Party, Puppy Love, or Tutti Frutti?

Vannormal said:

tab32792 said:

1. Desperate is a reach. If you're in the music world, who wouldn't want a hit? It wasn't that he was desperate. He started noticing a lot of people having hits but didn't feel as if they were talented and didn't play. To each his/her own.

2. You clearly didn't understand what he was doing or why. If you did you wouldn't have said this. It wasn't about the money. He clearly didn't read properly what he was signing, etc. It was about owning your work and doing what you want when and how you want regardless of oversaturation, etc.

3/4/5. A lot of people here are beyond judgemental and holier than though. He was getting older. Exploring religion. So natural progression is change. He didn't wanna curse anymore and he didn't wanna be old as hell doing ridiculous shit for attention anymore. That's fair and fine. It's like yall want people to stay the same...do the same thing, play the same kind of music, play with the same band, etc.

9 i agree here to an extent.

10. It wasn't an actual long term addiction. It was more recent than anything with the hip situation. So using that is not only not fair it don't make sense

-

1. Well then, his attempt with the ''Rave In2 The Joy Fantastic'' album was just that, (deseperately) trying to be on the charts again, the label change (again) to Arista, and the use of the support of it's chairman in the media, etc. But it didn't work. Much later on, 'Musicology' helped a bit for his so called comeback, for the mainstream audience - and to most fans too (I didn't like it that much).

Compare that ('Rave...'') album with the two/three previous and the two/three after that (for instance).

His story of 'real music by real musicians', came later when 'Musicology' started.

These clear sequential situations are noticeable, if you want.

Are they debatable ? ...sure. I am not in possession of the supreme puerple truth. )

2. Serious ? Not reading 'properly'? I would first and formost fire my incapable lawyers for that matter. Prince possibly did not read his own contract, and so what, if he did, he (or his lawyers) did make a mistake, only if they knew that Prince wanted to negotiate his masters, but that came later after he signed the contrat i believe.

3 / 4 / 5 / I don't want to sound judgemental, i'm just summing up what happened, and how it occured to (most older) fans (too). (Maybe my tone was harsch, true.)

Yes he got older, Exploring religion ? He did that all his life, basically on every record from the very beginning. The refusal of cursing was lead by the rules of JW - a choice he let others take/make for him, excecuted by him. Maybe he thougth it was cool to do, who knows. Never liked it.

It was not only imposed by the JW religion, but it also came across as pedantic in his concerts (at least to me).

It's often that specific 'ridiculous shit' that gives one the ability to be famous. Certainly Prince did that; stockings, bikini underwear, sex+religion, incest, rape, masturbation, etc.

No he did not have to be on that level all the time, or throughout his life. Again, that reason was more or less decided for him by his religion at the time.

No one wants Prince to be the same all the time, that IS the reason why we all love him in the first place. His innovative changes and choices. Only were these stronger in the beginning imho.

10. Yes he took (these?) pills already for a very long time. The term 'recent' was longer than ten years iirc.

Being under the influence of painkillers absolutely have an effect on whatever one does.

-

Peace though I like a good debate.

-

[Edited 2/1/21 5:18am]

This is RARELY touched on..

MattyJam said:

Vannormal said:

-

Compare those mediocre four songs you mentioned and comppare them with the real hits he had earlier on on the top of his game.

There's your answer.

-

Anther more complex answer is a mixture of all this :

-

1. I believe he was desperate for a hit, up until he started to move into the instrumental and jazz directions, towards the end of the nineties.

-

2. Also keep in mind the moniker he named himself with his dispute, the preaching, the complaining about the record industry & money after he signed one of the biggest contracts back then, and a lot of other things that were treated exactly with disinterest, or were just bad choices...

-

3. / 4. / 5. / etc... plus; Prince's über control freakishness, his constant change of mind,

the different labels, bad choices for protégés, and badly maintained great protégés,

uninspired band changes, and not to forget ...

the Larry thing, the jehove thing, the ban of curse words and nastyness, the bad business of Paisley Park, his marriages and the death of his child, the keeping up appearances about that horrifying event of his dead child during the interview with Oprah (poor Mayte), the routine sounding tours later on in his life where he basically lived on only playing hits, barely ever promoting a new album by playing theses songs live, ...

-

9. His relationship with the press in general; first he avoided them, then when things went slow, he all of sa sudden started to do nothing but press and TV, but actually had very little (interesting) to say.

-

10. His hidden drug addiction (not to forget), which probably/possibly had a big influence on all this. Though I'm not an expert.

-

You don't sound like a fan, at all. Just sayin.

-

Oh i'm a big fan.

But i'm also a realist, and have no problems with talking about the good and the bad.

For me Prince or any other artist is a saint.

Being a real fan, is being able to see things how they are,accept is, and split the best from the worst, without sounding bitter.

Prince is by far the most unique pusician so far - on ALL levels.

peace.

-

MattyJam said:

This has always baffled me. Contrary to what some people say, I actually think he was still writing music which had huge chart potential. Songs like Wherever U Go Whatever U Do, Somebody's Somebody and Dance 4 Me could've been massive. And I don't buy that Prince didn't care about having a hit, when some of his music from 96-16 was very obviously tailor made to fit in with the contemporary music scene of the time. I don't buy that it's an age issue, because it didn't stop his 80s contemporaries. So what was it that stopped him from having another hit when MJ and Janet still managed a few in the 00s and Madonna continued to achieve an abudance of chart hits until the radios stopped playing her a few years back.

Inability?

Do you know what happened when Prince released the Most Beautiful Girl in The World outside of Warners but still within the promotional machine of the industry? Do you hear the music that came out on the deluxe albums? Prince clearly had the material to release hit songs and 80's Prince sounding hit songs.

Do you see the media ingegrations across multiple platforms to help bring visibility to those albums?

The music was clearly there for "hits" to happen.

Large media conglomerates having a vested interest in Prince winning and being a winner for THEM is the key.

Bigger key is that Prince was able to be satisfied with selling what he sold and getting a bigger piece of the pie without being owned by the machine. Everytime Prince allowed the machine to touch his stuff, Prince had a resurgence in popularity.

It's not coincidence nor quality of music.

He definitely released songs that could have been hits and might have been if he stayed with Warner under a traditional record contract but after getting lucky with TMBGITW he thought it would be easy. Half-assed promotion of NPG alone releases and one off deals with labels where he lost interest since he already got paid, etc...just meant weak promotion and no payola at radio. Eventually tho all pop artists stop producing hits.