rednblue said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

prince never quite understood hip hop. or dance music.

but prince being prince, that never stopped him trying to make either.

he always thought he could do anything in music lol.

kudos to him for trying everything but its quite clear what he was genuinely great at and what he wasnt.

Maybe it's a question of what's meant by dance music, but didn't Prince have music beloved and in good rotation at dance places?

im not saying he didnt have songs big with DJs and producers. lot of guys who started house and techno idolised him.

by dance music i mean music made specifically for clubs post-mid 80s, i.e. house, techno, etc.

he made some decent stabs at making it, with human body etc, but its not quite as easy as it might seem/look.

i bet guys like moodyman (who made several prince edits/mixes of his own) freaked out when they got a clean version of purple music on the 1999 SDE though, yes.

id love to have had some real dance music producers get their hands on tracks like sleep around, human body, or even i wanna melt with you, for singles. that would have been interesting.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

prince never quite understood hip hop. or dance music.

but prince being prince, that never stopped him trying to make either.

he always thought he could do anything in music lol.

kudos to him for trying everything but its quite clear what he was genuinely great at and what he wasnt.

i agree about hip hop but isn't Prince a non intentional creator of many directions in dance music?(1999 album)

SirPussalot said:

it was partly intentional : in updating his sound to incorporate his version of what was prevelent

he had simply finished his hot streak and the muse changed ..which happens to most all musicians ..he didnt hear in his head the same quality of material he used to..he got older and the access to the veil is much harder and more sporadic

he withdrew from some of the people who may have stimulated him creatively

the entire frame changed and it seems like his paintings werent the fit they were previously..art is usually bound to society ..and is only relevent while that remains

think he was at points genuinely serious about starting a family ..that requires some energy shift in the balance of the ego ..

imho

some nice observations there

Vannormal said:

I've been to all his tours in 90's and 00's, saw several shows multiple times.

But somehow they sounded and looked uninspired, even a bit bored, at least to me.

I appreciate your honesty. I saw the dude three times, once on the ONA tour, and again twice on the 21 Nights in London. The difference between the two was night and day. On ONA, he looked engaged, the show lasted 2+hrs, he did a lot of stuff off the cuff and really appeared to be having fun.

The first 21 Nights show I saw felt very corporate. Prince played for the minimum amount of time acceptable (just over 80 mins) and looked like he was just going through the motions.

The second 21 Nights show was better, especially as he did a piano set - which is always a treat, seeing his talent in its rawest form. But it still wasn't a patch on the ONA show I saw.

A lot of fans raved about those 21 Nights shows, but I can't help suspect they were merely in awe of seeing such a legend and would've loved it regardless of what he did. For me, I found them to be underwhelming mostly.

[Edited 10/20/20 7:28am]

thebanishedone said:

What's funny is that most 4/4 so-called dance music is undanceable garbage. We should be grateful he didn't make it.

[Edited 10/20/20 7:03am]

rednblue said:

MattyJam said:

rednblue said: Thunder is one of those "tacky" Prince songs, that I would put in a category with Arms of Orion, My Name Is Prince, Graffiti Bridge and New Power Generation. Gold very narrowly escapes falling into this category, but gets a pass as its a much better song than the others I mentioned. But in general, his songwriting definitely became markedly less sophisticated after Lovesexy. [Edited 10/19/20 0:21am]

Have heard a rumor that before talks broke down, My Name Is Prince was set to be heard on the Simpsons as "My Name Is Bart." Anyone know if there's truth to that?

It's true

Prince made good dance music...shit more than half of yall robably cant even dance enough to know better.

D.M.S.R.

Sexy Dancer

Lets Work

When Doves Cry

Girls & Boys

Anotherloverholeinyohead

Pop Life

Sleep Around

Hypnoparadise

Space

Erotic City

Irresistable Bitch

Musicology

I Wanna Melt With U

The Human Body

Gett Off

etc

As a few others have noted above, I think incorporating too much rap into his music in the early/mid 90s was not "on-brand" for Prince.

Now, if Prince had kept to his own version of "rap" (Sexy MF, My Name Is Prince, Gett Off, Pussy Control, etc.) sparingly, then I think it would have been cool. I love all those songs.

But having an unknown rapper actually in the band (and actually the Game Boyz in general) was not doing Prince any favors.

herb4 said:

rednblue said:

Have heard a rumor that before talks broke down, My Name Is Prince was set to be heard on the Simpsons as "My Name Is Bart." Anyone know if there's truth to that?

It's true

"My name is Bart, and I am funky"...

thebanishedone said:

SirPussalot said:

it was partly intentional : in updating his sound to incorporate his version of what was prevelent

he had simply finished his hot streak and the muse changed ..which happens to most all musicians ..he didnt hear in his head the same quality of material he used to..he got older and the access to the veil is much harder and more sporadic

he withdrew from some of the people who may have stimulated him creatively

the entire frame changed and it seems like his paintings werent the fit they were previously..art is usually bound to society ..and is only relevent while that remains

think he was at points genuinely serious about starting a family ..that requires some energy shift in the balance of the ego ..

imho

some nice observations there

Also, enjoyed your musings.

Who were some of the people he withdrew from who could have stimulated him creatively?

RJOrion said:

Prince made good dance music...shit more than half of yall robably cant even dance enough to know better.

D.M.S.R.

Sexy Dancer

Lets Work

When Doves Cry

Girls & Boys

Anotherloverholeinyohead

Pop Life

Sleep Around

Hypnoparadise

Space

Erotic City

Irresistable Bitch

Musicology

I Wanna Melt With U

The Human Body

Gett Off

etc

Gotta love you. You give us a couple of laughs every day.

Margot said:

thebanishedone said:

some nice observations there

Also, enjoyed your musings.

Who were some of the people he withdrew from who could have stimulated him creatively?

I think Prince was inspired by the strong music scene at the moment .Remember most of his peers

were at the top of the game.He had a tough competitions and

his competition was music he could have related to,unlike the music he tried to mimic latter ,

that was not his thing.

Prince wasn't going for "Nas or Wu Tang" - He was going for Bobby Brown and MC Hammer. Gangster Glam. Adding rap with Graffiti Bridge and D&P was a commercial venture. Giving the 3rd verse/solo spot over to a rapper on a song is not so bad a concession to make if it becomes a hit record... may have been his thinking. He also wasn't going to have anyone in the band he couldn't absorb influence from and mould in to another character, a la Morris, Vanity et all.

.

As much as I love the Come/Gold era - listening to things like parts of Exodus, Pussy Control and Days Of Wild (all of which I like) it's mildly embarrassing hearing him swear and N-word his way through songs in a way as to glaringly emulate gangsta rap of the time - calculated, not organic inspiration (whatever that is.) This too was him trying on a new suit to see what it looked like and if the record buying public took to it.

.

Same with TRC and Nu-Soul, Dirty Mind and New Wave, becoming a guitar hero to promote a big studio movie? Prince has always been a magpie.

.

[Edited 10/20/20 10:11am]

NouveauDance said:

Prince wasn't going for "Nas or Wu Tang" - He was going for Bobby Brown and MC Hammer. Gangster Glam. Adding rap with Graffiti Bridge and D&P was a commercial venture. Giving the 3rd verse/solo spot over to a rapper on a song is not so bad a concession to make if it becomes a hit record... may have been his thinking. He also wasn't going to have anyone in the band he couldn't absorb influence from and mould in to another character, a la Morris, Vanity et all.

.

As much as I love the Come/Gold era - listening to things like parts of Exodus, Pussy Control and Days Of Wild (all of which I like) it's mildly embarrassing hearing him swear and N-word his way through songs in a way as to glaringly emulate gangsta rap of the time - calculated, not organic inspiration (whatever that is.) This too was him trying on a new suit to see what it looked like and if the record buying public took to it.

.

Same with TRC and Nu-Soul, Dirty Mind and New Wave, becoming a guitar hero to promote a big studio movie? Prince has always been a magpie.

absolutely.

i think hip hop though is just not really as good a fit as neo soul was for example.

hip hops attitude (and yes i know there are rappers like mos def, common, or talib kweli or chance the rapper who arent like this) towards women for example was very macho (to put it mildly) in a way 80s prince wasnt - all that hypermasculinity was just a very poor fit.

to me its not so much the odd songs like my name is prince or sexy mf (wildly overrated) or face down (grossly overrated and with some awful lyrics), but that hip hop leaked into a lot of prince lyrics at the time (as it did in a lot of R&B artists' music, to be fair). sometimes it was just prince singing 'gotta let the vibe just flow' on let it go. other times it was too much swearing and posturing, changing his tone to appear more aggressive (days of wild is a frankly terrible, wince-inducing song, even if musically, its funky, same for pussy control). even wearing a parka jacket on stage in the emancipation era was just silly.

honestly, a guy like beck had a more original response to hip hop of the time than prince.

no one in princes peer group (MJ, janet jackson, babyface, or alex o neal or whoever, felt they had to sound as young as prince tried)

[Edited 10/20/20 9:56am]

MattyJam said:

MattyJam said:

Vannormal said:

I've been to all his tours in 90's and 00's, saw several shows multiple times.

But somehow they sounded and looked uninspired, even a bit bored, at least to me.

I appreciate your honesty. I saw the dude three times, once on the ONA tour, and again twice on the 21 Nights in London. The difference between the two was night and day. On ONA, he looked engaged, the show lasted 2+hrs, he did a lot of stuff off the cuff and really appeared to be having fun.

The first 21 Nights show I saw felt very corporate. Prince played for the minimum amount of time acceptable (just over 80 mins) and looked like he was just going through the motions.

The second 21 Nights show was better, especially as he did a piano set - which is always a treat, seeing his talent in its rawest form. But it still wasn't a patch on the ONA show I saw.

A lot of fans raved about those 21 Nights shows, but I can't help suspect they were merely in awe of seeing such a legend and would've loved it regardless of what he did. For me, I found them to be underwhelming mostly.

[Edited 10/20/20 7:28am]

I never did see the 21 Nights shows but I did catch two of the ONA shows in the UK. The first in London was a mammoth of a performance. Even my GF at the time who worked in the music business went in quite cynical and left like she just had her head blown off.

The second show in Manchester was great too but it was lower in temperature and I didn't walk away feeling the same as the London show. I do remember he playing this drone of a sound on his guitar wondering in complete enjoyment "what the hell is this?" only for it to morph into Sign O The Times.

I think it's one of those things...sometiems the show is "on" and sometimes it just doesn't quite land.

jasminejoey said:

What's funny is that most 4/4 so-called dance music is undanceable garbage. We should be grateful he didn't make it.

[Edited 10/20/20 7:03am]

-

Funny is that Prince made so much music that invinted you to dance to, or that seduced you to the dance floor... and then you looked like a dancing fool. lol

-

I remember when ''When Doves Cry'' and ''Kiss'' arrived in the disco's (back then)

Everyone on the dance floor ! And then suddenly everybody was looking at each other lke... "this ain't an easy tune to dance too''. We all just stood there moving some foolish fit-ins.

-

Prince made so much great 'hits' that were not that danceable for disco's.

Think about it... go check these ;

- When Doves cry ?

- Little Red Corvette ? to

- Soft and Wet ?

- Pasiley Park ?

- Kiss ?

- When You Were Mine ?

- Sign O The Times ?

- Thieves iN The Temple ?

- I Would Die 4 Your ?

- If I Was Your Girlfriend ?

etc. Do try these (at home).

-

He was not only a genius in creating hit songs that were difficult to dance to, but was also able to write slow songs sounding like a dance song.

I give props to all that !

-

SantanaMaitreya said:

MattyJam said:

I appreciate your honesty. I saw the dude three times, once on the ONA tour, and again twice on the 21 Nights in London. The difference between the two was night and day. On ONA, he looked engaged, the show lasted 2+hrs, he did a lot of stuff off the cuff and really appeared to be having fun.

The first 21 Nights show I saw felt very corporate. Prince played for the minimum amount of time acceptable (just over 80 mins) and looked like he was just going through the motions.

The second 21 Nights show was better, especially as he did a piano set - which is always a treat, seeing his talent in its rawest form. But it still wasn't a patch on the ONA show I saw.

A lot of fans raved about those 21 Nights shows, but I can't help suspect they were merely in awe of seeing such a legend and would've loved it regardless of what he did. For me, I found them to be underwhelming mostly.

[Edited 10/20/20 7:28am]

I wasn't there, but I know that Prince often needed a few gigs to get going. The shows usually got better as the tour progressed. For example, I saw the opening night of the D&P tour in Gent in may 1992 and the next days in Rotterdam he was already more playful, jamming more and by the time he came back in july, new songs had been added to the set.

-

Yeah I remember that, Did both shows too.

But right there I started to slightly part from the refined & brutal Prince I loved.

-

Strange tour that was. Strange sound too. Strange hair, strange suit strange guys (the dancers) etc... It was below my expectations.

The whole album sounded like a wall of sound. Gone was his dry pumping funk with his twisted sexy voice. Rosie fucked it up for me too. Sorry Rosie. He should've stayed with Boni Boyer imho. She added so much 'real and pure soul' that rosie lacked (again, imho).

I invite you to compare the D&P tour with the SOTT or Lovesexy tours... on all levels.

-

I have many bootleg live shows.

I never listen to these few D&P tour boots i have again.

I tried, but nah. Not good.

-

Vannormal said:

jasminejoey said:

What's funny is that most 4/4 so-called dance music is undanceable garbage. We should be grateful he didn't make it.

[Edited 10/20/20 7:03am]

-

Funny is that Prince made so much music that invinted you to dance to, or that seduced you to the dance floor... and then you looked like a dancing fool. lol

-

I remember when ''When Doves Cry'' and ''Kiss'' arrived in the disco's (back then)

Everyone on the dance floor ! And then suddenly everybody was looking at each other lke... "this ain't an easy tune to dance too''. We all just stood there moving some foolish fit-ins.

-

Prince made so much great 'hits' that were not that danceable for disco's.

Think about it... go check these ;

- When Doves cry ?

- Little Red Corvette ? to

- Soft and Wet ?

- Pasiley Park ?

- Kiss ?

- When You Were Mine ?

- Sign O The Times ?

- Thieves iN The Temple ?

- I Would Die 4 Your ?

- If I Was Your Girlfriend ?

etc. Do try these (at home).

-

He was not only a genius in creating hit songs that were difficult to dance to, but was also able to write slow songs sounding like a dance song.

I give props to all that !

-

many house DJs played princes music, but theres a difference between danceable R&B/funk etc, and dance music, which is the difference between what prince was doing, and someone like green velvet or moodyman (who has a lot of groove in his tracks, in a way i think prince could appreciate) for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDMVfFgykP8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYhZeyZC1Ds

def NOT undanceable garbage.

[Edited 10/21/20 9:21am]

[Edited 10/21/20 9:22am]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Vannormal said:

-

Funny is that Prince made so much music that invinted you to dance to, or that seduced you to the dance floor... and then you looked like a dancing fool. lol

-

I remember when ''When Doves Cry'' and ''Kiss'' arrived in the disco's (back then)

Everyone on the dance floor ! And then suddenly everybody was looking at each other lke... "this ain't an easy tune to dance too''. We all just stood there moving some foolish fit-ins.

-

Prince made so much great 'hits' that were not that danceable for disco's.

Think about it... go check these ;

- When Doves cry ?

- Little Red Corvette ? to

- Soft and Wet ?

- Pasiley Park ?

- Kiss ?

- When You Were Mine ?

- Sign O The Times ?

- Thieves iN The Temple ?

- I Would Die 4 Your ?

- If I Was Your Girlfriend ?

etc. Do try these (at home).

-

He was not only a genius in creating hit songs that were difficult to dance to, but was also able to write slow songs sounding like a dance song.

I give props to all that !

-

many house DJs played princes music, but theres a difference between danceable R&B/funk etc, and dance music, which is the difference between what prince was doing, and someone like green velvet or moodyman (who has a lot of groove in his tracks, in a way i think prince could appreciate) for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDMVfFgykP8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYhZeyZC1Ds

def NOT undanceable garbage.

at bolded

What do the two of you and others think are some of the best examples of 70s and 80s (not what funkbaby describes here as "danceable funk/R&B"), but instead 70s and 80s R&B and funk that is also dance music by what falls under the definition of dance music as people see it?

Even with its very limited perspective, Wikipedia's "Dance Music" page suggests R&B and funk can be not just danceable, but "dance music." Do people disagree?

Also, if someone wants to post a better source/outline for dance music history, please do. This Wikipedia one is obviously sadly limited re: time, focus, place and A LOT MORE.

Do apologize, too, if all this is deemed too much OT. Just seems like the backdrop of what was happening with music overall can be relevant to thread subject/OP and any changes (or not) in Prince's music/art.

Sometimes things can get down into semantics, and not everyone finds Wikipedia worth a look, but FWIW, this is from Wikipedia's "Dance Music" page:

"By decade[edit]

1900s–1910s[edit]

During the early 20th century, ballroom dancing gained popularity among the working class who attended public dance halls.

1920s[edit]

Dance music became enormously popular during the 1920s. Nightclubs were frequented by large numbers of people at which a form of jazz, which was characterized by fancy orchestras with strings instruments and complex arrangements, became the standard music at clubs. A particularly popular dance was the fox-trot. At the time this music was simply called jazz, although today people refer to it as "white jazz" or big band.

1930s–1940s[edit]

Genres: Swing music, Western swing

1950s[edit]

Genres: Rock and roll

In 1952, the television show American Bandstand switched to a format where teenagers dance along as records are played. American Bandstand continued to be shown until 1989. Since the late 1950s, disc jockeys (commonly known as DJs) played recorded music at nightclubs.

1960s[edit]

In 1960, Chubby Checker released his song "The Twist" setting off a dance craze. The late 1960s saw the rise of soul and R&B music which used lavish orchestral arrangements.

Other genres: Funk

1970s[edit]

Genres: Disco, funk, R&B, hip hop

In 1970, the television show Soul Train premiered featuring famous soul artists who would play or lipsync their hits while the audience danced along. By the mid-1970s, disco had become one of the main genres featured. In 1974, Billboard added a Disco Action chart of top hits to its other charts (see List of Billboard number one dance club songs). Disco was characterized by the use of real orchestral instruments, such as strings, which had largely been abandoned during the 1950s because of rock music. In contrast to the 1920s, however, the use of live orchestras in night clubs was extremely rare due to its expense. The disco craze reached its peak in the late 1970s when the word "disco" became synonymous with "dance music" and nightclubs were referred to as "discos".

1980s[edit]

Genres: New wave, Italo disco, Euro disco, post-disco, synthpop, dance-pop, funk, contemporary R&B, hip hop, new jack swing, house, acid house, hip house, techno, freestyle, Miami bass, bounce, electro, hi-NRG, Madchester, EBM, cosmic disco, Balearic beat, new beat

1990s[edit]

Genres: House, Italo dance, Italo house, Eurodance, Europop, hip house, electro, electroclash, progressive house, French house, techno, minimal techno, trance, alternative dance, new jack swing, contemporary R&B, dancehall, hip hop, G-funk, Miami bass, drum and bass, big beat, breakbeat, breakbeat hardcore, rave, hardcore, happy hardcore, speed garage, UK garage, soca, reggaeton, psytrance, Goa trance

2000s[edit]

Genres: Trance, electropop, dance-pop, snap, crunk, dancehall, reggaeton, dance-punk, nu-disco, electro house, minimal techno, dubstep, grime, bassline, UK funky, contemporary R&B, hip hop, drum and bass, progressive house, hardstyle, funky house

2010s[edit]

Genres: Electropop, synthpop, glitchpop, hip house, nu-disco, new wave, new rave, trance, house, hi-NRG, hard NRG, dance-pop, electro-industrial, deep house, drum and bass, dubstep, techstep, liquid funk, electro house, glitch house, progressive house, breakbeat, hardstyle, dubstyle, drumstep, hip hop, ghetto house, Jersey club, trap, drill, moombahton, moombahcore, dancehall, tropical house, UK garage, Europop"

https://en.wikipedia.org/...ance_music

[Edited 10/21/20 11:22am]

Vannormal said:

Yeah, I don't know about anyone trying to say that Prince sucks at writing "dance music"

GTFO with that shit.

Truth be told, I can't dance to most "dance" music that calls itself that because there's no soul to it. Give me some "Brickhouse" or "Billy Jean". FUNK with some sex behind it. Not that BUMP da BUMP BUMP da BUMP BUMP da BUMP BUMP da BUMP BUMP da BUMP for half an hour bullshit.

I have to FEEL it to dance to it and Prince has a lof of great dance songs.

Oddly, one DJ's like to play a lot is "Kiss", which I find tought to move to. But something like "Love" from 3121 I can feel and find myself in. Prince has dance songs for fucking days.

Give the guy a break! Sometimes I don't feel like spending all my time and energy cooking the perfect meal. I'm sure my kids think I compromised my cooking; but for gods sake give the man a break. I think he just wore out.

RJOrion said:

who cant dance to "HouseQuake"??..or "LaLaLaHeHeHee"?? or "LeGrind"???... if that aint dance music, what is?...the man is literally TEACHING DANCES during the songs!... wtf are we talkin about here?

-

Exactly.

But there's some nuance here, as usual.

These songs you mention are absolutely very 'danceable songs', but they are not 'Dance' as understood by the style that happened as new later on.

-

Back in the days (1987-1988) when I was young and was out dancing every weekend (Fri & Sat nights) in the local big disco's, ''Housequake'' and ''La La La, He He Hee'', or ''Le Grind'' were not on the DJ lists. ''Kiss'' sometimes, but as I mentioned, difficult to dance too.

Though, I even remember very well that a local DJ got his hands on a vinyl boot of the Black Album, and he played ''Superfunkycalifragisexy'', and funny enough every one left the dancefloor.

Too unknown. And I went aaaaaaall nuts! Screaming every word, faking all Prince moves - surely came off as a complete fool, with my high heels on.

lol

-