Margot said:

LoveGalore said:

Margot said:

Though I am bisexual, I was was strictly with women for 8 years. I get it. I did not fit in.

I also lived in Oakland, in the 'hood' for 25+ years.

I'm not a fragile, white person. Please look at your bias.

IMO, Oakland is a great melting pot where, for the most part, there is harmony and humor among the groups.

[Edited 10/3/20 10:08am]

Oh, I lived in Oakland for years. Right above International, near the police station. You're right, Oakland is a melting pot yet it's a great example of the haves and havenots separated by red lines. And the thing is, just living among black people does not give you the experience of a black person who experiences being black every moment of every day and that experience includes some elements that a bisexual white woman will never ever ever understand. And sometimes people who DO understand that experience like to remark about how prince understood it too because of his blackness. There's never been a lack of discussion about Prince's vision of a utopic Paisley Park blah blah blah. But PP ain't real. So what we are left with is what exists on this planet.

Now that we have something in common, I lived for years in West Oakland, then moved to 61st street/Dover. (No Oakland)

I forgot to mention that one of the women I was involved with (5 years) was a black, French women of West Indian descent. She had a beautiful accent and told me frequently that she was treated very rudely by American black women. So, Intolerance is everywhere.

BTW, it's not always fun being a woman...You have male privilege if you want to go there. I could whine about that for hours.

Margot said:

LoveGalore said:

Margot said:

Now that we have something in common, I lived for years in West Oakland, then moved to 61st street/Dover. (No Oakland)

I forgot to mention that one of the women I was involved with (5 years) was a black, French women of West Indian descent. She had a beautiful accent and told me frequently that she was treated very rudely by American black women. So, Intolerance is everywhere.

BTW, it's not always fun being a woman...You have male privilege if you want to go there. I could whine about that for hours.

You are right that intolerance is everywhere and I absolutely have the utmost respect for your experience and certainly the experience of your ex! But what isn't going on here is anyone assigning values to people's experience. What's happening is that SOMETIMES black people remark about the shared aspects of their experiences and Prince's. And so very often when these discussions arise, white people come out of nowhere talking about Prince somehow being above his blackness. Which is hilarious because Prince spent much of the latter half of his career speaking directly to his blackness! I think it's probably okay for people to acknowledge Prince's blackness. Not to think he was somehow playing dress up (or dressing down?) when he leaned into that blackness. It was him through and through. Sidebar: Prince loved Oakland btw. Oakland was the place he went to when recruiting nearly half of the musicians ever in his bands. Some of his most long-term musicians are from the bay area and of course he got his solo start in Sausalito where he recorded For You. I think Bay area people only compete with Minnesotans and Detroiters in terms of adoration of Prince.

Oakland is a cool place. I lived there when it was quite raw, but I am a true Oakland booster. While at the Farmer's Market there yesterday, stopped by a earthy thrift shop nearby, with very cool stuff. It is in a large historic building near 7th and Clay owned by Marshawn Lynch.

I know Prince was black and I found that very sexy about him. He was not above being black and I am sure that is frustrating for you to hear that from white people.

Before I moved to Oakland, I lived in a lilly white town called Los Gatos (you may have heard of it) near San Jose. Because of my experience in Oakland, I learned a tremendous amount that I would not have understood if I had not lived there. I think many white people are not inherently mean, they have not had much experience with actual black people and say and do things that can be construed as racist or insensitive. IMO, much of it is tone-deafness/under-exposure/ignorance. Prince did not seem to discuss race very much until later and inexperienced whites may have taken that as 'transcending' race.

I appreciate that we were able to talk about this.

BTW: I love that Prince loved Oakland. Alot of great music originated in Oakland.

a dumb amount of white people in this thread getting mad that they can't claim prince in the way they want. whatever he said about his relation to his black expression, take it and move on. whatever fellow org peers say about their relation to his black expression, take it and move on. listen to it and absorb it. whatever you do with it after that, whatever! no need to bitch and moan. not up to us to fixate and categorize it. and those that say it's "exluding non-black" folk by having these convos, you're far behind the train from the start! find it genuinely insane that anyone can be a hardcore enough of a fan to post on the org and not understand these points, which i think P expressed in his own way many times

Margot said:

• I agree that white journalists have controlled the narrative re: Prince for too long.

I would like more input from black sources as I would love a more nuanced view of Prince.

What I find demoralizing, though, are the statements that show 'ownership' or that promote

an exclusive 'members-only',"you will never understand", "you don't get it",(nor will we ever let you) approach.

I bet it was really annoying for Prince to look out over a sea of white faces when in Europe/Austalia, etc. with absolutely no rhythmic ability whom he had to coach to clap on time etc. However, he likely realized that in spite of their shortcomings, most of them were sincere fans who followed him for years, knew his lyrics, though sang off-key, etc.

I remember visiting Paisley soon after his death and riding the bus from the Chanhassen Dinner Theatre to Paisley. The bus was filled to capacity with equal parts white and black fans. Everyone

sat with everyone and I noticed the relaxed harmony of the group both on the bus and during the tour et. We stayed for 3 hours and spoke with a number of fans, both black and white. That feeling of harmony stayed with me and spoke volumes about Prince.

[Edited 10/3/20 9:30am]

You started off well by saying that "white journalists have controlled the narrative" for too long. As a white person, I agree. For some reason, when I got Duane Tudahl's book a couple years ago, I had thought he was black. When I found out he was white, it didn't affect my appreciation of the book, but I must say I was kind of dismayed. I had thought that finally a black writer wrote a well-received book about Prince. But not.

That said, what exactly is stopping black writers? Maybe they just haven't written the books / articles. There's also the fact that African Americans are only, like, 9% of the US population, so the odds are small at the best of times. Prince also has huge fanbases in Europe and the UK with even smaller black populations. So, you shouldn't really be surprised that ANY mainstream artist has the narrative "controlled" by white journalists. It's 100% to be expected, unless the artist in question has a 95% black audience, which has never been the case with Prince (well, maybe in 1978).

But from there, your post became misguided and offensive...

You go only to claim the following:

-- White people have no rhythmic ability

-- White people can't clap in time

-- Prince would have been dismayed by this

This is all bogus, and, frankly, racist. The quite legitimate point was raised that Prince, despite his millions of dollars and eager US fanbase, CHOSE to tour albums like Sign O' The Times exclusively in Europe. He didn't have to do that -- in fact, his management and band-members begged him to tour the US. He chose not to.

Obviously, then, Prince wasn't committed to prioritizing his black fanbase in broad career terms, and that's good because he would have been idiotic to do so. Prince's music clearly had universal appeal, and Prince liked that it did.

The US and world markets are, you know, pretty big and broad. It's not like an artist has to choose to appeal to one demographic only. Some people do so but only because their music has limited appeal.

To the point of whites denying Prince's blackness.... Er, I dunno, I have never in my life encountered a white person who didn't consider Prince "black" in general terms (I haven't seen anyone on here say otherwise, either), so I have no idea what all that fuss is about. I personally think every individual has the human right to determine his or her own "race", as he/she likes -- race, after all, is a social construct that doesn't biologically exist. So, I'm uncomfortable with anyone describing someone else's race, including blacks saying someone else is "black". I think each person gets to decide that for themselves. (Regardless, all white people I've ever met consider Prince black.)

I don't think the controversy engendered in this thread has much or anything to do with Prince's race. Prince was African American by all accounts, including his, and we all know it. (But it IS worth pointing out that, in artistic terms, Prince clearly did not want to be pigeon-holded as being a "black" artist, and we should respect that.)

I *think* what the controversy engendered in this thread is really about is that some (probably a small minority) of black Prince fans feel a sense of togetherness with him based on racial-identity solidarity, and this unfortunately leads those few to a sense of entitlement and ownership in discourse about Prince -- which is wrong. Obviously, if you are black and Prince was black, then you and Prince share this in common (whites or native Americans or Asians don't), and we all know that racial identities (esp. in the USA) are often very upfront and important in social relations (disproportionately to other developed countries). So, I get the racial identity thing being a big deal. So, I fully understand black-Americans "claiming" Prince as one of their own. Sure, of course. But I don't think ANYONE should claim a right to have an exclusive opinion or interpretation of Prince's art based on race.

Saying that, I also think it's very hard for whites to understand this in reversed terms. It's very difficult for white people to imagine a period of several years (like Prince c. 1979 to 1984) where your favorite white artist's fanbase went from 99% white to 20% white in five years... because it's never happened in history. Imagine a white, dope-smoking Crosby, Stills, and Nash fan in 1970 wandering into a concert in 1975 and seeing it's all black (!), and then all the CSN narrative, articles, and books being written by blacks, from a black perspective. It's hilarious to imagine because it's so far-fetched, but that's exactly what happened to the audiences of people like Prince in the 1980s.

I do sympathize with the black Prince fan (if we must label races of fans) for the lack of a black media narrative. There is a gap there that should be filled. But I strongly disagree that blacks have any priority or exclusive knowlege about Prince's art over any other groups of people.

[Edited 10/4/20 22:15pm]

ThePanther said:

Margot said:

• I agree that white journalists have controlled the narrative re: Prince for too long.

I would like more input from black sources as I would love a more nuanced view of Prince.

What I find demoralizing, though, are the statements that show 'ownership' or that promote

an exclusive 'members-only',"you will never understand", "you don't get it",(nor will we ever let you) approach.

I bet it was really annoying for Prince to look out over a sea of white faces when in Europe/Austalia, etc. with absolutely no rhythmic ability whom he had to coach to clap on time etc. However, he likely realized that in spite of their shortcomings, most of them were sincere fans who followed him for years, knew his lyrics, though sang off-key, etc.

I remember visiting Paisley soon after his death and riding the bus from the Chanhassen Dinner Theatre to Paisley. The bus was filled to capacity with equal parts white and black fans. Everyone

sat with everyone and I noticed the relaxed harmony of the group both on the bus and during the tour et. We stayed for 3 hours and spoke with a number of fans, both black and white. That feeling of harmony stayed with me and spoke volumes about Prince.

[Edited 10/3/20 9:30am]

You started off well by saying that "white journalists have controlled the narrative" for too long. As a white person, I agree. For some reason, when I got Duane Tudahl's book a couple years ago, I had thought he was black. When I found out he was white, it didn't affect my appreciation of the book, but I must say I was kind of dismayed. I had thought that finally a black writer wrote a well-received book about Prince. But not.

That said, what exactly is stopping black writers? Maybe they just haven't written the books / articles. There's also the fact that African Americans are only, like, 9% of the US population, so the odds are small at the best of times. Prince also has huge fanbases in Europe and the UK with even smaller black populations. So, you shouldn't really be surprised that ANY mainstream artist has the narrative "controlled" by white journalists. It's 100% to be expected, unless the artist in question has a 95% black audience, which has never been the case with Prince (well, maybe in 1978).

But from there, your post became misguided and offensive...

You go only to claim the following:

-- White people have no rhythmic ability

-- White people can't clap in time

-- Prince would have been dismayed by this

This is all bogus, and, frankly, racist. The quite legitimate point was raised that Prince, despite his millions of dollars and eager US fanbase, CHOSE to tour albums like Sign O' The Times exclusively in Europe. He didn't have to do that -- in fact, his management and band-members begged him to tour the US. He chose not to.

Obviously, then, Prince wasn't committed to prioritizing his black fanbase in broad career terms, and that's good because he would have been idiotic to do so. Prince's music clearly had universal appeal, and Prince liked that it did.

The US and world markets are, you know, pretty big and broad. It's not like an artist has to choose to appeal to one demographic only. Some people do so but only because their music has limited appeal.

To the point of whites denying Prince's blackness.... Er, I dunno, I have never in my life encountered a white person who didn't consider Prince "black" in general terms (I haven't seen anyone on here say otherwise, either), so I have no idea what all that fuss is about. I personally think every individual has the human right to determine his or her own "race", as he/she likes -- race, after all, is a social construct that doesn't biologically exist. So, I'm uncomfortable with anyone describing someone else's race, including blacks saying someone else is "black". I think each person gets to decide that for themselves. (Regardless, all white people I've ever met consider Prince black.)

I don't think the controversy engendered in this thread has much or anything to do with Prince's race. Prince was African American by all accounts, including his, and we all know it. (But it IS worth pointing out that, in artistic terms, Prince clearly did not want to be pigeon-holded as being a "black" artist, and we should respect that.)

I *think* what the controversy engendered in this thread is really about is that some (probably a small minority) of black Prince fans feel a sense of togetherness with him based on racial-identity solidarity, and this unfortunately leads those few to a sense of entitlement and ownership in discourse about Prince -- which is wrong. Obviously, if you are black and Prince was black, then you and Prince share this in common (whites or native Americans or Asians don't), and we all know that racial identities (esp. in the USA) are often very upfront and important in social relations (disproportionately to other developed countries). So, I get the racial identity thing being a big deal. So, I fully understand black-Americans "claiming" Prince as one of their own. Sure, of course. But I don't think ANYONE should claim a right to have an exclusive opinion or interpretation of Prince's art based on race.

Saying that, I also think it's very hard for whites to understand this in reversed terms. It's very difficult for white people to imagine a period of several years (like Prince c. 1979 to 1984) where your favorite white artist's fanbase went from 99% white to 20% white in five years... because it's never happened in history. Imagine a white, dope-smoking Crosby, Stills, and Nash fan in 1970 wandering into a concert in 1975 and seeing it's all black (!), and then all the CSN narrative, articles, and books being written by blacks, from a black perspective. It's hilarious to imagine because it's so far-fetched, but that's exactly what happened to the audiences of people like Prince in the 1980s.

I do sympathize with the black Prince fan (if we must label races of fans) for the lack of a black media narrative. There is a gap there that should be filled. But I strongly disagree that blacks have any priority or exclusive knowlege about Prince's art over any other groups of people.

[Edited 10/4/20 22:15pm]

I only mentioned the lack of rythymic ability because I have seen it in many of the Prince videos and think it is fairly harmless though may have been a bit frustrating for a musician with such impeccable time.

Apparently,we can't jump either. It is not a big criticism in the greater scheme of things. Actually, I think it's humorous.

I'll defer to others about your other ideas.

[Edited 10/5/20 0:19am]

Putting things in boxes is all that this is.

They try to create a certain 'order' to things which might be unwarranted.

Because if SOTT is 'all blackness' then why did he take it o the mostly `white` folks in Europe?

And why did he choose the band he got at the time?

These unwarranted discussions simply try to keep you from enjoying the music.

udo said:

LoveGalore said:

Says the non-American. There's a very real reason why these discussions happen and it ain't in a vacuum. Most European countries do not have the same legacy of slavery and systemic racism so your perception of race is quite different.

.

Do you even know 'what' I am?

I do have some insights because of fairly extensive genealogy research showing things back as far as Alexander the Great and Darius I, as well as Norman influences, Pharaohs of the later dynasties, etc.

So yes, probably not so (native?) American.

I do not see a reason for these discussions about boxing up stuff.

We (as local 'whites') do have a certain history with slavery, even Sinterklaas is now disussed here because of his black 'servants'.

Racism is systemic and unavoidable.

I have no obligation to like everybody and there might be signs of why I avoid people.

Avoiding people in certain situations then becomes 'racism'.

We (in theNetherlands) have loads of imported people around, so some forms of racism are quite clear here too.

It's just that that the situation (uintil now) has been different from the leftists that want to create havoc in the USSA to show what will happen if their presidential candidate (really? they did not have anyone better?) fails.

Be it some suspected 'murder' of drugged black criminal as a reason orn whatever else they can think of.

It's the same stuff that leads to 'defund the police'.

How braindead does one have to be to cry that?

Ever checked the BLM (organisation) website?

Pure Marxist ideas, that have nothing to do with helping the black people along, to help them get work, income, housing, a career, life, wealth, etc.

So the racism is also from blacks internally there.

tab32792 said:

Last few posts have been well spoken for sure. But I don’t think it’s that black Prince fans don’t think white fans can or should speak on him. It’s when they speak on certain aspects of him outside of the music or his choices and or misuse quotes. It’s not trying to be excluding by saying you won’t get or understand it. You just simply won’t because you aren’t black or had the same experiences that’s all. That is a fact. Prince didn’t want a black budget or be told he could only do traditional r&b. That’s what he meant. He even said a lot of things he did said and wore were for attention. I also agree that most articles and books are written by white folks cause they control the spaces mostly as well. We rarely see them interview black journalists concerning him. They really talk to black podcasters concerning him etc etc. Prince touring Europe was mainly cause they accept black artists better there but also his music was doing way better there in comparison to here so that’s understandable. There’s things about prince’s upbringing that heavily effected his choices in his life and career. Things that primarily occur in black households and families and neighborhoods. So no you won’t get or understand a lot of things. Doesn’t mean we’re smarter or have more knowledge. Just that we can relate in ways physically emotionally and mentally that others won’t. So when folks call a black man who grew up poor and never really had anything an asshole, I have a problem with that.

I think that though Prince grew up poor and never really had anything, he could be really rough on people, ie., his assistants were known to be over-worked, his early engineers, the same.

His treatment of women was questionable etc. I don't think asshole is a great word, but it should

be acceptable to talk about a person's behavior.

I think he tried to be more considerate as he matured.

We have to be careful not to over-idealize/stan a person.

udo said:

LoveGalore said:

Says the non-American. There's a very real reason why these discussions happen and it ain't in a vacuum. Most European countries do not have the same legacy of slavery and systemic racism so your perception of race is quite different.

.

Do you even know 'what' I am?

I do have some insights because of fairly extensive genealogy research showing things back as far as Alexander the Great and Darius I, as well as Norman influences, Pharaohs of the later dynasties, etc.

So yes, probably not so (native?) American.

I do not see a reason for these discussions about boxing up stuff.

We (as local 'whites') do have a certain history with slavery, even Sinterklaas is now disussed here because of his black 'servants'.

Racism is systemic and unavoidable.

I have no obligation to like everybody and there might be signs of why I avoid people.

Avoiding people in certain situations then becomes 'racism'.

We (in theNetherlands) have loads of imported people around, so some forms of racism are quite clear here too.

It's just that that the situation (uintil now) has been different from the leftists that want to create havoc in the USSA to show what will happen if their presidential candidate (really? they did not have anyone better?) fails.

Be it some suspected 'murder' of drugged black criminal as a reason orn whatever else they can think of.

It's the same stuff that leads to 'defund the police'.

How braindead does one have to be to cry that?

Ever checked the BLM (organisation) website?

Pure Marxist ideas, that have nothing to do with helping the black people along, to help them get work, income, housing, a career, life, wealth, etc.

So the racism is also from blacks internally there.

Cool, thanks for sharing.

Margot said:

Music has no color ............ except to racists.

LoveGalore said:

jaawwnn said:

tab32792 said:

Nobody is over idealizing anything. Nor am I excusing his behavior. What I’m saying is a lot of his behavior stems from his childhood etc. Also I’m not soft in any way shape or form so a lot of what you’re saying doesn’t = being an asshole but then again I’m called that often as well so oh well...naturally with him as all folks he got better with age life and experience. They weren’t overworked. They just couldn’t keep up with him. That’s fine and fair. Move out the way so someone that can, can. Ya know? And as far as the women? Lol I mean they were adults. He was running game. Again not excusing but it happens everyday. Smarten up. Tighten up. Margot said:

I noticed you said others call you an asshole too, so perhaps you are more tolerant of that behavior.

I would like it if you could talk about how his childhood formed him.

I am only asking as it seems he was also uncool with alot of his friends from No. Minnie whose childhood's happened alongside his.

I didn't perceive Morris, Andre, Jam, Lewis, Jerome, Sonny, Jellybean, Jesse etc. being as ruthless as

Prince was. One could call it drive or vision or whatev, but it had a ruthlessness to it.

[Edited 10/5/20 17:26pm]

Interesting article, and interesting discussion it has caused. Prince's career was amazing in that he attracted fans from so many different walks of life - he really did create his own "Uptown" of sorts.

I think it's a valid point that there are certain aspects of Prince's career, personality, and music that would be at the very least better understood, if not only understood, by black fans. I don't see why that should be a controversial point. As a white fan born in 1980, there are surely some parts of Prince's music and career that I don't quite get due to my race and also due to my age. There are perspectives I don't have for these and other reasons that mean that certain things won't resonate with me from a sense of common experience.

I've mentioned age, but there are lots of other ways in which Prince's life experience would merge or diverge from that of other fans in ways that could influence the resonance of some of Prince's music. For instance, I'm not sure that a song like "Peach" would appeal in the same way to those who aren't attracted to women the way it may to those who are. The messages in stuff like The Rainbow Children probably don't resonate with people who aren't Jehovah's Witnesses the way they do with fans who are, etc. We all come to appreciate music and musicians from our own unique experiences and perspectives. The magic of Prince is that he somehow managed to reach us all in spite of that.

Regarding perceived attempts to claim Prince's blackness or whatever, it's completely understandable given the long history of black musical forms being co-opted and appropriated by white artists. It seems like 90% of music journalism since the dawn of rock and roll has been about putting white men playing guitars and singing in English on a pedestal at the expense of everyone else. Those artists who managed to somehow get attention in spite of this had to either be sure to smile and appear non-threatening (thinking of artists like The Temptations here and Lionel Richie post-Commodores), perversely be seen as black outliers in "white" genres (e.g. Jimi Hendrix, Living Colour), or grossly lumped together as a single genre such as "world music" or the "female genre". I fully support efforts to push back against that.

jaawwnn said:

udo said:

LoveGalore said:

Says the non-American. There's a very real reason why these discussions happen and it ain't in a vacuum. Most European countries do not have the same legacy of slavery and systemic racism so your perception of race is quite different.

.

Do you even know 'what' I am?

I do have some insights because of fairly extensive genealogy research showing things back as far as Alexander the Great and Darius I, as well as Norman influences, Pharaohs of the later dynasties, etc.

So yes, probably not so (native?) American.

I do not see a reason for these discussions about boxing up stuff.

We (as local 'whites') do have a certain history with slavery, even Sinterklaas is now disussed here because of his black 'servants'.

Racism is systemic and unavoidable.

I have no obligation to like everybody and there might be signs of why I avoid people.

Avoiding people in certain situations then becomes 'racism'.

We (in theNetherlands) have loads of imported people around, so some forms of racism are quite clear here too.

It's just that that the situation (uintil now) has been different from the leftists that want to create havoc in the USSA to show what will happen if their presidential candidate (really? they did not have anyone better?) fails.

Be it some suspected 'murder' of drugged black criminal as a reason orn whatever else they can think of.

It's the same stuff that leads to 'defund the police'.

How braindead does one have to be to cry that?

Ever checked the BLM (organisation) website?

Pure Marxist ideas, that have nothing to do with helping the black people along, to help them get work, income, housing, a career, life, wealth, etc.

So the racism is also from blacks internally there.

gross

this thread got weird.

'prince could be an asshole because he had it hard growing up but if you call him an asshole then youre an asshole, asshole, because if you had it tough growing up, it means everything you do later is excusable'

'if prince mistreated women in his life, thats their fault for falling for his bullshit!'

'if prince was so black, why did he play to white audiences?'

'europe has no racism'

'white people cant clap on time'

'white people cant dance'

well done everyone!

[Edited 10/6/20 1:39am]

[Edited 10/6/20 1:40am]

lol pure MARXIST ideas. oh man, we got a bit of red scare in this thread as well

a thoroughly pointless conversation

it really has nothing to do with Prince whatsoever

just everyone projecting their own issues and racism into the Prince conversation,

I am SO over this trash

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

this thread got weird.

'prince could be an asshole because he had it hard growing up but if you call him an asshole then youre an asshole, asshole, because if you had it tough growing up, it means everything you do later is excusable'

'if prince mistreated women in his life, thats their fault for falling for his bullshit!'

'if prince was so black, why did he play to white audiences?'

'europe has no racism'

'white people cant clap on time'

'white people cant dance'

well done everyone!

[Edited 10/6/20 1:39am]

[Edited 10/6/20 1:40am]

ain't no dumpster fire like a prince.org dumpster fire <3

one thing i will say is about this:

"Ever checked the BLM (organisation) website?

Pure Marxist ideas, that have nothing to do with helping the black people along, to help them get work, income, housing, a career, life, wealth, etc."

prince, in the 80s, would probably agree.

and thats not cos he was a sellout, but cos he was more conservative.

in a similiar way, JB was actually quite conservative, and believed in a certain practicalism/pragmatism rather than radicalism.

what later prince would say about that, idk.

He also sang: Whoever said that elephants were stronger than mules?, which is probably as close as he ever came to singing about party politics.

I don't think he was particularly interested beyond telling people to work as hard as him to get the same success as him, same as JB, as you said. I can't see him ranting about "marxist SJW's" or the frankfurt school or whatever.

[Edited 10/6/20 7:53am]

JB: I Don't Want Nobody To Give Me Nothing (Open Up The Door, I'll Get It Myself).

ive a feeling prince in the 80s would prob have been behind this^^^

doesnt mean he would have looked down on others who didnt, necessarily.

but doesnt mean he was the leftist radical some people would like him to have been either.

though id love to hear others perspectives.

[Edited 10/6/20 5:43am]

[Edited 10/6/20 5:44am]