Can anyone explain to me why certain people keep insisting on bringing race into the Prince conversation on an almost daily basis?

Can we not talk about the music without dragging how BLACK it is into every conversation?

What on God's green earth has happened to this planet in 2020?

Retitled: Sign O The Times was saying This is all human existenceness

fragglerock said:

Can anyone explain to me why certain people keep insisting on bringing race into the Prince conversation on an almost daily basis?

Can we not talk about the music without dragging how BLACK it is into every conversation?

What on God's green earth has happened to this planet in 2020?

It's now politically correct to talk about race every 5 seconds

3rdeyedude said:

Prince literally has a BLM song on his final album.

LoveGalore said:

Prince literally has a BLM song on his final album.

.

BLM the movement or

BLM the organisation?

LoveGalore said:

More than half of TGE is r&b? Just we March.I hear Rock,pop,and funk in the rest.Billy jack bitch,319,shhhh isnt r&b to me but no problem if you think it is.
This reminds me of when I went to a record store years ago and was looking for Prince in the Rock and pop section,the employee took me to the r&b section when Prince was mixed with artists like sisqo and r kelly.It was a big WTF moment for me but I have always thought Prince was a genre of his own.He made every type of music and shouldnt have been categorized
[Edited 10/1/20 13:38pm]

Phase3 said:

Pussy Control - hip hop
Endorphin - rock
We March - RnB pop
Shhh - RnB pop (c'mon man, the isley brothers did this decades ago)
TMBGITW - RnB pop
Dolphin - rock
Now - hip hop
319 - rock
Shy - ??? No idea what to call this garbage
I Hate U - RnB pop
Gold - rock

I'm missing something. But as you can see there is tons of RnB and hip hop on this album.

tab32792 said:

Lol I love this place. All these replies are exactly what I expect from this place. More ignoring his blackness. Purple rain around the world in a day and parade had world elements. Parade had plenty of euro flavor so idk what the confusion is. There were whispers of him losing his black audience. SOTT was a compilation album for sure but there’s a lot of soul in that record that was missing in the past 3. And did you even read the questlove write up about him being hip hop? If you’re did you’d know what he meant by that. Clearly you don’t. He didn’t mean rap. He meant hip hop culture. And misusing quotes of his is getting old too. Again when he said don’t make me black, he meant he didn’t want a black budget cause he knew that meant little to nothing. He didn’t wanna only play r&b which was “black music”. He wanted to play and say whatever he wanted. He wanted freedom from the beginning. That’s what he meant.

-

Exactly that!

But i'm affraid these are pearls for the swines.

Couldn't put it any better.

Really love this article by the way.

It seems that some people here do not agree on a more open debate with an intelligent approach to what is so important to get his legacy understood from all different angles.

Something for everyone, nothing for all.

-

It is true that now he is dead, you can have prince be anything you want

Republicans can enjoy ronnie talk to Russia and free
Blm supporters and allies can enjoy Baltimore
Trans rights activists can find trans interpretations of camille and IIWYG
JWs can gravitate to TRC

Etc

Prince was vague, so people like to project their own shit onto him.

fragglerock said:

That right there is the problem. It makes non black folks uncomfortable to talk about race for a multitude of reasons. So no we can’t leave it out as it is important in understanding him his music snd decisions but if you ain’t black you will never understand that

Refuse to read any article called "The Radical X of Y" unless it's written by an actual radical.


Here's the thing, Prince's blackness as a topic is worth exploring in depth. Read that London Review of Books article to get a very well-written summary of 30 years of very-white journalism and you'll see why, but what we need is something more than empty "radical blackness" platitudes and someone who is willing to actually deal with the complexities of the issue.

[Edited 10/2/20 5:17am]

jaawwnn said:

Well put
The word radical is over used in 2020
It no longer has meaning
[Edited 10/2/20 6:50am]

Number1Crush said:

[journalist intently listening to headphones]

Oh my gawd, this is SO melanated!

Congratulations! I am pleased to inform you that you just won this entire thread.

steakfinger said:

He wasn't vague about being black once chasing a fair shot at an audience wasn't his problem.

I mean, yeah, prince was shrewd. He really kept overt references to his race quiet (though in fairness, he did a lot quietly for black causes) while pursuing a mainstream, white audience. And it was done in a way few other black artists did, or could do, I'd say.
His visual racial ambiguity was def used to his advantage.

But prince did it all of his own accord. No one pressured him. Yes you can say he would have had no choice in the 80s if he wanted to be as famous and as rich as he obv wanted and have all the trappings and opportunities those things provide. But no one made him get a majority white band. Or rarely use any darker skinned women on stage.

But it's hard to deny princes recognisable 'blackness', musically.
Eg the gospel singing in forever in my life (live)
The JB channelling on housequake
The 60s soul balladry on adore
The electric miles Davis-style ending to ICNTTPOYM

Etc

So you could say once he no longer felt he had to court a white audience, he didnt care as much about alienating white ppl, which makes sense. Could also just be responding to cultural trends. Prince was always savvy. He was also getting older. Maybe that was him trying to return to his roots more, or worried that he didnt appear 'black enough' to some in the 80s and trying to compensate in some way. I'm sure those criticisms stung him. Whether you can measure blackness though, as the writers in this piece seem to think, that's something i am less interested in. Idk what was significantly 'blacker' about a song like thunder or live 4 love (as they are talking about the 90s period) or D&P or three chains of gold, but I'm not black, so who knows. Prince still wasnt sounding like rnb of the period. And that includes guys like Jodeci or tomy toni tone. His recorded were never produced like rnb records after 82. Emancipation was an attempt at r&b aesthetics but even then he would find it hard to be a pure rnb artist. He was naturally cross-genre.
[Edited 10/2/20 7:28am]
[Edited 10/2/20 9:41am]
[Edited 10/2/20 9:54am]

1979 - Prince tries to get the Stevie Wonder audience

1980 - Prince tries to get the white, indie audience

1983-84 - Prince tries to get the white mainstream audience

1985 - Prince tries to get the burned-out-hippies audience

1986 - Prince tries to get the French audience

1987 - Prince tried to get the Grammy-award audience

1988 - Prince tries to get the LSD & crystal-meth audience

1989 - Prince tries to get the 13-year-old boy audience

Or, you could, you know, just enjoy the music and stop trying to think for Prince.

tab32792 said:

fragglerock said:

Can anyone explain to me why certain people keep insisting on bringing race into the Prince conversation on an almost daily basis?

Can we not talk about the music without dragging how BLACK it is into every conversation?

What on God's green earth has happened to this planet in 2020?

That right there is the problem. It makes non black folks uncomfortable to talk about race for a multitude of reasons. So no we can’t leave it out as it is important in understanding him his music snd decisions but if you ain’t black you will never understand that

As I said before, I try to stay out of these discussions/arguments because neither party, IMO, is hearing the other.

With that said, as a white fan, I will say it is unfair to make this blanket staement: "It makes non-black folks uncomfortable to talk about race for a multitude of reasons". Personally, if I am honest, I will say I stay away from the topic because I can't win, or will inevitably be called a racist while having no idea what I just did to offend or

#2:

"I ain't black so I will never understand" I take that as someone black purposefully excluding me forever...special club that I will never understand and will most certainly never be invited to.

I am so weary of this.

If Prince felt this way, then whatever. That's on him. He didn't have to go to Europe, Australia, NZ to play to predominantly white fans long after he made it.

There, I said it. Take it or leave it.

Margot said:

What does it mean to "win" in these discussions?

Which club are you referring to? What do you think the people in said club pay for dues? Who do you think they pay those dues to?

Which clubs do you already belong to? Who is allowed in those clubs? Do you make the rules of these clubs? What do you part with to be in them?

Prince was often playing mediator by observing and then communicating the answers to the above questions, in terms general enough for most of us to grasp, in his music.

He was never all one thing or all another, but he was always black and often devoted much of his outwardly expressed love to his blackness and black people. Because that is one club he was in that, no, you'll never be part of.

LoveGalore said:

Margot said:

As I said before, I try to stay out of these discussions/arguments because neither party, IMO, is hearing the other.

With that said, as a white fan, I will say it is unfair to make this blanket staement: "It makes non-black folks uncomfortable to talk about race for a multitude of reasons". Personally, if I am honest, I will say I stay away from the topic because I can't win, or will inevitably be called a racist while having no idea what I just did to offend or

#2:

"I ain't black so I will never understand" I take that as someone black purposefully excluding me forever...special club that I will never understand and will most certainly never be invited to.

I am so weary of this.

If Prince felt this way, then whatever. That's on him. He didn't have to go to Europe, Australia, NZ to play to predominantly white fans long after he made it.

There, I said it. Take it or leave it.

What does it mean to "win" in these discussions? Which club are you referring to? What do you think the people in said club pay for dues? Who do you think they pay those dues to? Which clubs do you already belong to? Who is allowed in those clubs? Do you make the rules of these clubs? What do you part with to be in them? Prince was often playing mediator by observing and then communicating the answers to the above questions, in terms general enough for most of us to grasp, in his music. He was never all one thing or all another, but he was always black and often devoted much of his outwardly expressed love to his blackness and black people. Because that is one club he was in that, no, you'll never be part of.

I don't need to be in the damn club. I get it.

I also really appreciate Prince's blackness. I love his gospel, R&B, his swag etc. but apparently my

experience is lacking compared to yours; I can't fully 'understand or comprehend' like you can.

You may have all of him. You seem to need to claim him, so please do so.

I feel excluded by you.(not by Prince)

I get it.

Is that enough? He's all yours.

[Edited 10/2/20 21:33pm]

Margot said:

I don't need to be in the damn club. I get it.

I also really appreciate Prince's blackness. I love his gospel, R&B, his swag etc. but apparently my

experience is lacking compared to yours; I can't fully 'understand or comprehend' like you can.

You may have all of him. You seem to need to claim him, so please do so.

I feel excluded by you.(not by Prince)

I get it.

Is that enough? He's all yours.

and that is exactly why these discussions are absolutely pointless

they dont give a crap what non-black people have to say, but everyone else is expected to listen to EVERYTHING that they say because 'nobody know like they do!' it's amazingly stupid thinking

the crazy thing is there was very little of this that i noticed pre April 2016, it was around but pretty quiet, these days you can't go 5 minutes without them telling you that Prince was black!

i dont have any issue with ppl saying 'prince was black', cos you know, er, he was.

my only issue, w/r/t this thread, is that to listen to an artist like prince, and say he had no white influences. or rather that those influences werent present in his music. esp in the late 80s. esp on an album like SOTT. even in the 90s, yes, the bands got blacker, but prince was still playing plenty of pop/rock.

musically, prince is someone who does not really do musical absolutes, or musical purism.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

No one said that.

fragglerock said:

It's a forum where you don't know shit about the other person's race. Check your issues with black people at the door and quit being a crybaby about it. Maybe if you stopped whining about being right or wrong or "winning" then you'd learn something for once.

(some) black fans

'prince was black. everything he did was rooted in black culture. prince was black AF'

(some) white fans

'prince wasnt really black. he was just... prince. can we stop talking about prince being black just for once? why is everyone so obsessed about prince being black?'

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

That's actually spot fucking on.

• I agree that white journalists have controlled the narrative re: Prince for too long.

I would like more input from black sources as I would love a more nuanced view of Prince.

What I find demoralizing, though, are the statements that show 'ownership' or that promote

an exclusive 'members-only',"you will never understand", "you don't get it",(nor will we ever let you) approach.

I bet it was really annoying for Prince to look out over a sea of white faces when in Europe/Austalia, etc. with absolutely no rhythmic ability whom he had to coach to clap on time etc. However, he likely realized that in spite of their shortcomings, most of them were sincere fans who followed him for years, knew his lyrics, though sang off-key, etc.

I remember visiting Paisley soon after his death and riding the bus from the Chanhassen Dinner Theatre to Paisley. The bus was filled to capacity with equal parts white and black fans. Everyone

sat with everyone and I noticed the relaxed harmony of the group both on the bus and during the tour et. We stayed for 3 hours and spoke with a number of fans, both black and white. That feeling of harmony stayed with me and spoke volumes about Prince.

[Edited 10/3/20 9:30am]

Margot said:

All this stuff is just exemplary of white fragility.

You can't understand what it's like for a black person or a trans person or a gay person or a Chinese person or an Indian person or a First Nations person either. Doesn't mean parts of their human experience can't be relatable. It can! We are all human! But Prince's perspective was ALWAYS rooted in blackness because he was fuckin black! Just like your experience is rooted in whiteness! Prince didn't know what it was like to be white! You're in about a dozen clubs prince could never be part of!

What's the issue? Why is it that some white people just cannot fathom NOT being one and the same with a person who isn't exactly like them?? Good lord! All you gotta do is be like, yup - prince was black and not "just prince" or something in the margins of race. He was black and fought against being treated like black people typically get treated! It isn't rocket science, man.

Why can't you just be appreciative that prince shared his vision with you and you were able to find those commonalities? Take that and examine it for what it is and apply it to your daily life and understand WHY people who are not like you own their otherness. Respect it. Appreciate it. Do not try to obfuscate it. Do not try to take it away from them or other people.
[Edited 10/3/20 9:40am]

"I bet it was really annoying for Prince to look out over a sea of white faces when in Europe/Austalia, etc. with absolutely no rhythmic ability whom he had to coach to clap on time etc. However, he likely realized that in spite of their shortcomings, most of them were sincere fans who followed him for years, knew his lyrics, though sang off-key, etc."

lol that THIS - out of everything that an artist might experience as a black artist playing to mass white audiences - might be the thing he found annoying (ive no idea, who knows, i doubt it though, most artists would be highly gracious for overseas audiences).

you do remember prince played with plenty of white musicians, right? pretty sure he knew white ppl could clap rhythmically!

also, you assume all black fans sing perfectly in tune, LOL

[Edited 10/3/20 9:43am]

LoveGalore said:

Margot said:

• I agree that white journalists have controlled the narrative re: Prince for too long.

I would like more input from black sources as I would love a more nuanced view of Prince.

What I find demoralizing, though, are the statements that show 'ownership' or that promote

an exclusive 'members-only',"you will never understand", "you don't get it",(nor will we ever let you) approach.

I bet it was really annoying for Prince to look out over a sea of white faces when in Europe/Austalia, etc. with absolutely no rhythmic ability whom he had to coach to clap on time etc. However, he likely realized that in spite of their shortcomings, most of them were sincere fans who followed him for years, knew his lyrics, though sang off-key, etc.

I remember visiting Paisley soon after his death and riding the bus from the Chanhassen Dinner Theatre to Paisley. The bus was filled to capacity with equal parts white and black fans. Everyone

sat with everyone and I noticed the relaxed harmony of the group both on the bus and during the tour et. We stayed for 3 hours and spoke with a number of fans, both black and white. That feeling of harmony stayed with me and spoke volumes about Prince.

[Edited 10/3/20 9:30am]

All this stuff is just exemplary of white fragility. You can't understand what it's like for a black person or a trans person or a gay person or a Chinese person or an Indian person or a First Nations person either. Doesn't mean parts of their human experience can't be relatable. It can! We are all human! But Prince's perspective was ALWAYS rooted in blackness because he was fuckin black! Just like your experience is rooted in whiteness! Prince didn't know what it was like to be white! You're in about a dozen clubs prince could never be part of! What's the issue? Why is it that some white people just cannot fathom NOT being one and the same with a person who isn't exactly like them?? Good lord! All you gotta do is be like, yup - prince was black and not "just prince" or something in the margins of race. He was black and fought against being treated like black people typically get treated! It isn't rocket science, man. Why can't you just be appreciative that prince shared his vision with you and you were able to find those commonalities? Take that and examine it for what it is and apply it to your daily life and understand WHY people who are not like you own their otherness. Respect it. Appreciate it. Do not try to obfuscate it. Do not try to take it away from them or other people. [Edited 10/3/20 9:40am]

Though I am bisexual, I was was strictly with women for 8 years. I get it. I did not fit in.

I also lived in Oakland, in the 'hood' for 25+ years.

I'm not a fragile, white person. Please look at your bias.

IMO, Oakland is a great melting pot where, for the most part, there is harmony and humor among the groups.

[Edited 10/3/20 10:08am]