purplepolitician said:

However, put me in the category of folks that don't give a flying whatzits about warble, Wally sounds amazeballs n gaw-geous (yes, had 2 use made up words just 2 describe it, it's that bomb ) . PS: listen carefully around 4:05 to hear P catch the holy ghost .

Most of the org doesn't care about lossy masters being used either, doesn't make it less valid/relevant.

SchlomoThaHomo said:

parker said:

Fairly certain this is just somebody tweaking the estate version, boosting some things, and making the volumes and what not sound smoother, it sounds launder, not cleaner or clearer.

Yea I think you’re right. And they took a lil chunk out.

Yep. Don't bother with this "new leak". It's just the version on SOTT SDE somebody reworked a bit. The actual "original outro" is even missing. Nothing to see here.

[Edited 9/29/20 2:25am]

databank said:

lustmealways said:

this is all fine and dandy, but transparency about that from the estate would be even more fine and dandy

I've been calling for transparency from day 1 but in this case idk what could be more transparent: this wasn't Bolasmixed and this is not from cassette (or Howe would have said if we're to believe his admission regarding Bold Gen last year), so this is what they found, the mix Prince left behind on a professional format, and if the tape is slightly damaged then that's what we get. For once I don't see a problem there. The lossy tracks I believe would call for an explanation, but here I think we get what we asked for: Prince's mix on a professional format.

Well, we still need to know why they didn't remix the track from the multitrack tape. I mean, yes, I know, a lot of people on the Org have no problem with the tape warble (I myself didn't notice that the Utrecht tape is running 2% too slow...), but it's still an obvious problem purely from a technical perspective. There's not multitrack tape? Fine. They didn't find any mixdown on cassette tapes? It's fine, too. Just put it in the liner notes. I'm sure they can fit one page with such technical details somewhere.

olb99 said:

databank said:

olb99 said:

Well, we still need to know why they didn't remix the track from the multitrack tape. I mean, yes, I know, a lot of people on the Org have no problem with the tape warble (I myself didn't notice that the Utrecht tape is running 2% too slow...), but it's still an obvious problem purely from a technical perspective. There's not multitrack tape? Fine. They didn't find any mixdown on cassette tapes? It's fine, too. Just put it in the liner notes. I'm sure they can fit one page with such technical details somewhere.

Fair enough. Are we sure about Utrecht?

.

I'm not, but people with way better ears than mine seem to think there's a problem. It's mentioned somewhere in the thread about SOTT SDE on the Steve Hoffman forum:

.

https://forums.stevehoffm...on.963431/

.

Edit: here: https://forums.stevehoffm...t-25028823

[Edited 9/29/20 7:48am]

lustmealways said:

bluegangsta has broken the mainframe

Now it looks like it's me! His ground filling equipment has vanished! It was a trick!!

olb99 said:

databank said:

olb99 said: Fair enough. Are we sure about Utrecht?

.

I'm not, but people with way better ears than mine seem to think there's a problem. It's mentioned somewhere in the thread about SOTT SDE on the Steve Hoffman forum:

.

https://forums.stevehoffm...on.963431/

.

Edit: here: https://forums.stevehoffm...t-25028823

[Edited 9/29/20 7:48am]

The link don't work but yeah I know this board. I always want to read it but then they don't split threads between announcement and after release so we get these 150 pages threads and I often get discouraged I'll try and check page 127, thx

Well, I decided to do a detailed analysis of the SDE 'Rebirth' against the edited leaks of the past - The first boot leak from 87, the second gen leak commonly used on the 'Camille' boots and the near pristine leak commonly used in the 'Crystal Ball' sets.

Now that I've done a fair bit of work, I have to say, I'm not convinced of foul play on the SDE (although there are some issues).

I lined them all up and did a peak by peak assessment. First off, the leaked version commonly coming in a 4:54 is not running at the right speed, IF the SDE version is. The SDE speed is constant, but the boots actually have varying dialation across there length.

Secondly, I altered the EQs on the boots and I was able to bring them much more in line with the SDE. Until altered, the boots sounded like a different version in parts, but once tweeked, the source sounds remarkably similar.

Thirdly, I looked in great detail at the 'cut/spliced' elements.

Some of the things I found... The '2:54 'Motherfucker bit that sounded initially like a cross fade is in all the versions.

The first point where the SDE deviates from the boots is at 2:58. The SDE is the uneditted version, and Prince (he used to do a lot of his own cutting) made the first edit to cut the stealing accusation out. To disguise the cut, he echoed the word 'real' twice.

The cut skips forward to the next chanting section a few bars along. The cut out section is 2:58 to 3:13.

From here, he only made two more cuts, which were done in easy sections, firstly shortening the late mid section (which gave it a bit more pace) and the second, to cut it short for 'Welcome 2 the Crystal Ball' ending. That cut was made at the 5:16 point on the SDE.

When laid out against each other note for note, the SDE version sounds like it belongs as one piece and the boot version is a fairly straight forward edit from it. The 'errors' on some instrumentation seem to be there in some form on all the versions.

To test my analysis, I then edited myself and I was able to create an exact duplicate of the previously known version, but with SDE sonics. It matched peak for peak. The best boot version has more punch, but it seems to be previous EQ choices.

Using the SDE as the speed benchmark (and its the only one where the speed is constant), then edited, it doesn't come it at 4:54, but 4:58 (4:56 if I cut it ebruptly to match Crystal Ball).

The biggest error I found with the SDE version (and its a big one, once you've heard it), is an increase in volume of 2.2db at the 5:13 mark. It's not hiding a splice or fade, so I'm not sure why the hell it's there.

I corrected it on my copy. With that in mind, did I great a Frankenstein version, or correct a mistake, as it was not present on the original?

So, I'm not convinced the SDE version is anything more sinister than a full version/cut they have unvaulted. The edit we know comes EXACTLY out of it. Maybe they did have to patch the SDE version together. If they did, then the 5:13 point seems the biggest error. But as this was something I could fix in 2 minutes, why wouldn't they?

Now that I have both versions restored, my only issue is placement. Does the full version belong on 'Camille'? And if it doesn't, is there another version we don't know about?

databank said:

olb99 said:

Well, we still need to know why they didn't remix the track from the multitrack tape. I mean, yes, I know, a lot of people on the Org have no problem with the tape warble (I myself didn't notice that the Utrecht tape is running 2% too slow...), but it's still an obvious problem purely from a technical perspective. There's not multitrack tape? Fine. They didn't find any mixdown on cassette tapes? It's fine, too. Just put it in the liner notes. I'm sure they can fit one page with such technical details somewhere.

Fair enough. Are we sure about Utrecht?

Someone did a comparison with the version he has and according to him the SDE version is indeed a bit slower (or his is faster).

SquirrelMeat said:

Well, I decided to do a detailed analysis of the SDE 'Rebirth' against the edited leaks of the past - The first boot leak from 87, the second gen leak commonly used on the 'Camille' boots and the near pristine leak commonly used in the 'Crystal Ball' sets.

Now that I've done a fair bit of work, I have to say, I'm not convinced of foul play on the SDE (although there are some issues).

I lined them all up and did a peak by peak assessment. First off, the leaked version commonly coming in a 4:54 is not running at the right speed, IF the SDE version is. The SDE speed is constant, but the boots actually have varying dialation across there length.

Secondly, I altered the EQs on the boots and I was able to bring them much more in line with the SDE. Until altered, the boots sounded like a different version in parts, but once tweeked, the source sounds remarkably similar.

Thirdly, I looked in great detail at the 'cut/spliced' elements.

Some of the things I found... The '2:54 'Motherfucker bit that sounded initially like a cross fade is in all the versions.

The first point where the SDE deviates from the boots is at 2:58. The SDE is the uneditted version, and Prince (he used to do a lot of his own cutting) made the first edit to cut the stealing accusation out. To disguise the cut, he echoed the word 'real' twice.

The cut skips forward to the next chanting section a few bars along. The cut out section is 2:58 to 3:13.

From here, he only made two more cuts, which were done in easy sections, firstly shortening the late mid section (which gave it a bit more pace) and the second, to cut it short for 'Welcome 2 the Crystal Ball' ending. That cut was made at the 5:16 point on the SDE.

When laid out against each other note for note, the SDE version sounds like it belongs as one piece and the boot version is a fairly straight forward edit from it. The 'errors' on some instrumentation seem to be there in some form on all the versions.

To test my analysis, I then edited myself and I was able to create an exact duplicate of the previously known version, but with SDE sonics. It matched peak for peak. The best boot version has more punch, but it seems to be previous EQ choices.

Using the SDE as the speed benchmark (and its the only one where the speed is constant), then edited, it doesn't come it at 4:54, but 4:58 (4:56 if I cut it ebruptly to match Crystal Ball).

The biggest error I found with the SDE version (and its a big one, once you've heard it), is an increase in volume of 2.2db at the 5:13 mark. It's not hiding a splice or fade, so I'm not sure why the hell it's there.

I corrected it on my copy. With that in mind, did I great a Frankenstein version, or correct a mistake, as it was not present on the original?

So, I'm not convinced the SDE version is anything more sinister than a full version/cut they have unvaulted. The edit we know comes EXACTLY out of it. Maybe they did have to patch the SDE version together. If they did, then the 5:13 point seems the biggest error. But as this was something I could fix in 2 minutes, why wouldn't they?

Now that I have both versions restored, my only issue is placement. Does the full version belong on 'Camille'? And if it doesn't, is there another version we don't know about?

Great analyses, I really like to know if this is the version on Camille album or something different.

Thanks, SquirrelMeat. This is highly appreciated.

olb99 said:

Thanks, SquirrelMeat. This is highly appreciated.

SquirrelMeat said:

Well, I decided to do a detailed analysis of the SDE 'Rebirth' against the edited leaks of the past - The first boot leak from 87, the second gen leak commonly used on the 'Camille' boots and the near pristine leak commonly used in the 'Crystal Ball' sets.

Now that I've done a fair bit of work, I have to say, I'm not convinced of foul play on the SDE (although there are some issues).

I lined them all up and did a peak by peak assessment. First off, the leaked version commonly coming in a 4:54 is not running at the right speed, IF the SDE version is. The SDE speed is constant, but the boots actually have varying dialation across there length.

Secondly, I altered the EQs on the boots and I was able to bring them much more in line with the SDE. Until altered, the boots sounded like a different version in parts, but once tweeked, the source sounds remarkably similar.

Thirdly, I looked in great detail at the 'cut/spliced' elements.

Some of the things I found... The '2:54 'Motherfucker bit that sounded initially like a cross fade is in all the versions.

The first point where the SDE deviates from the boots is at 2:58. The SDE is the uneditted version, and Prince (he used to do a lot of his own cutting) made the first edit to cut the stealing accusation out. To disguise the cut, he echoed the word 'real' twice.

The cut skips forward to the next chanting section a few bars along. The cut out section is 2:58 to 3:13.

From here, he only made two more cuts, which were done in easy sections, firstly shortening the late mid section (which gave it a bit more pace) and the second, to cut it short for 'Welcome 2 the Crystal Ball' ending. That cut was made at the 5:16 point on the SDE.

When laid out against each other note for note, the SDE version sounds like it belongs as one piece and the boot version is a fairly straight forward edit from it. The 'errors' on some instrumentation seem to be there in some form on all the versions.

To test my analysis, I then edited myself and I was able to create an exact duplicate of the previously known version, but with SDE sonics. It matched peak for peak. The best boot version has more punch, but it seems to be previous EQ choices.

Using the SDE as the speed benchmark (and its the only one where the speed is constant), then edited, it doesn't come it at 4:54, but 4:58 (4:56 if I cut it ebruptly to match Crystal Ball).

The biggest error I found with the SDE version (and its a big one, once you've heard it), is an increase in volume of 2.2db at the 5:13 mark. It's not hiding a splice or fade, so I'm not sure why the hell it's there.

I corrected it on my copy. With that in mind, did I great a Frankenstein version, or correct a mistake, as it was not present on the original?

So, I'm not convinced the SDE version is anything more sinister than a full version/cut they have unvaulted. The edit we know comes EXACTLY out of it. Maybe they did have to patch the SDE version together. If they did, then the 5:13 point seems the biggest error. But as this was something I could fix in 2 minutes, why wouldn't they?

Now that I have both versions restored, my only issue is placement. Does the full version belong on 'Camille'? And if it doesn't, is there another version we don't know about?

Awesome analysis, squirrel! Appreciate you sharing these detailed results with us. It's a relief to me as I can do that 5:13 adjustment myself in ProTools (as well as re-creating the edit version). I believe the edit version is the one used on Camille (same as Crystal Ball)... so the full version never got as far as being placed on a configuration/test pressing, etc. But I could be proven wrong! Getting this track in such good quality is something I've waited for since 1988 when I first heard the boot version (labelled Souly-A-Colia!).

One trainspotting point, I have listened to the song hundreds if not thousands of times (it's one of my favorites), and with really good headphones many of those times. I really believe the slow voice effect at the end says "Come to the Crystal Ball" rather than "Welcome". I don't think I'll ever be convinced otherwise... but maybe I will be hit with flames and arrows saying I'm wrong. Hmmm....

I'm loving Wally. The warble is SO not a big deal.

glamlife2 said:

SquirrelMeat said:

Well, I decided to do a detailed analysis of the SDE 'Rebirth' against the edited leaks of the past - The first boot leak from 87, the second gen leak commonly used on the 'Camille' boots and the near pristine leak commonly used in the 'Crystal Ball' sets.

Now that I've done a fair bit of work, I have to say, I'm not convinced of foul play on the SDE (although there are some issues).

I lined them all up and did a peak by peak assessment. First off, the leaked version commonly coming in a 4:54 is not running at the right speed, IF the SDE version is. The SDE speed is constant, but the boots actually have varying dialation across there length.

Secondly, I altered the EQs on the boots and I was able to bring them much more in line with the SDE. Until altered, the boots sounded like a different version in parts, but once tweeked, the source sounds remarkably similar.

Thirdly, I looked in great detail at the 'cut/spliced' elements.

Some of the things I found... The '2:54 'Motherfucker bit that sounded initially like a cross fade is in all the versions.

The first point where the SDE deviates from the boots is at 2:58. The SDE is the uneditted version, and Prince (he used to do a lot of his own cutting) made the first edit to cut the stealing accusation out. To disguise the cut, he echoed the word 'real' twice.

The cut skips forward to the next chanting section a few bars along. The cut out section is 2:58 to 3:13.

From here, he only made two more cuts, which were done in easy sections, firstly shortening the late mid section (which gave it a bit more pace) and the second, to cut it short for 'Welcome 2 the Crystal Ball' ending. That cut was made at the 5:16 point on the SDE.

When laid out against each other note for note, the SDE version sounds like it belongs as one piece and the boot version is a fairly straight forward edit from it. The 'errors' on some instrumentation seem to be there in some form on all the versions.

To test my analysis, I then edited myself and I was able to create an exact duplicate of the previously known version, but with SDE sonics. It matched peak for peak. The best boot version has more punch, but it seems to be previous EQ choices.

Using the SDE as the speed benchmark (and its the only one where the speed is constant), then edited, it doesn't come it at 4:54, but 4:58 (4:56 if I cut it ebruptly to match Crystal Ball).

The biggest error I found with the SDE version (and its a big one, once you've heard it), is an increase in volume of 2.2db at the 5:13 mark. It's not hiding a splice or fade, so I'm not sure why the hell it's there.

I corrected it on my copy. With that in mind, did I great a Frankenstein version, or correct a mistake, as it was not present on the original?

So, I'm not convinced the SDE version is anything more sinister than a full version/cut they have unvaulted. The edit we know comes EXACTLY out of it. Maybe they did have to patch the SDE version together. If they did, then the 5:13 point seems the biggest error. But as this was something I could fix in 2 minutes, why wouldn't they?

Now that I have both versions restored, my only issue is placement. Does the full version belong on 'Camille'? And if it doesn't, is there another version we don't know about?

Awesome analysis, squirrel! Appreciate you sharing these detailed results with us. It's a relief to me as I can do that 5:13 adjustment myself in ProTools (as well as re-creating the edit version). I believe the edit version is the one used on Camille (same as Crystal Ball)... so the full version never got as far as being placed on a configuration/test pressing, etc. But I could be proven wrong! Getting this track in such good quality is something I've waited for since 1988 when I first heard the boot version (labelled Souly-A-Colia!).

One trainspotting point, I have listened to the song hundreds if not thousands of times (it's one of my favorites), and with really good headphones many of those times. I really believe the slow voice effect at the end says "Come to the Crystal Ball" rather than "Welcome". I don't think I'll ever be convinced otherwise... but maybe I will be hit with flames and arrows saying I'm wrong. Hmmm....

I agree with you its 'come to the Crystal Ball'. I was thinking of the later 'welcome' line in The Ball.

I'd love to know which version is on the original Camille album.

If the edited version is on it, then the 'come to the crystal ball' line seems out of place, but without it the song ending is far too abrupt.

My guess would be one of two options:

1. The edit is used, but the 'come to the crystal ball' line is replaced with a tight cut to the squelch at the beginning of Housequake.

2. The full version is used and Housequake doesn't have the squelch.

Personally, I'd lean to option 1.

SquirrelMeat - YOU are the man! Thank you for your analysis!

For those interested, here is a direct 60 second comparison between versions of Rebirth. Here is the pristine leaked Crystal Ball wavform (top two channels), Vs the SDE version (bottom two channels).

What is most notable is that the first 15 seconds of the leaked version packs considerable more punch, but tailors off . But by the one minute mark, its atually dropping below the SDE is some areas. The first section of the leak looks like its suffered from prior clipping.

The SDE is alot more constant across the whole run.

You can also see at the one minute mark how much faster the leaked version plays (or how much slower the SDE is, depending on what you think is the correct speed).

SquirrelMeat said:

glamlife2 said:

Awesome analysis, squirrel! Appreciate you sharing these detailed results with us. It's a relief to me as I can do that 5:13 adjustment myself in ProTools (as well as re-creating the edit version). I believe the edit version is the one used on Camille (same as Crystal Ball)... so the full version never got as far as being placed on a configuration/test pressing, etc. But I could be proven wrong! Getting this track in such good quality is something I've waited for since 1988 when I first heard the boot version (labelled Souly-A-Colia!).

One trainspotting point, I have listened to the song hundreds if not thousands of times (it's one of my favorites), and with really good headphones many of those times. I really believe the slow voice effect at the end says "Come to the Crystal Ball" rather than "Welcome". I don't think I'll ever be convinced otherwise... but maybe I will be hit with flames and arrows saying I'm wrong. Hmmm....

I agree with you its 'come to the Crystal Ball'. I was thinking of the later 'welcome' line in The Ball.

I'd love to know which version is on the original Camille album.

If the edited version is on it, then the 'come to the crystal ball' line seems out of place, but without it the song ending is far too abrupt.

My guess would be one of two options:

1. The edit is used, but the 'come to the crystal ball' line is replaced with a tight cut to the squelch at the beginning of Housequake.

2. The full version is used and Housequake doesn't have the squelch.

Personally, I'd lean to option 1.

There was a boot from Japan that came out some months after the test pressing of Camille was auctioned by Karen K.... it claimed to be a recording of the test pressing and it used the standard edit with the Crystal Ball ending. But I doubt their claim. I'll bet Questlove or Karen K could answer! I still need to get used to this new Outro version... I might use this "full length" version on my own Camille version, I haven't decided yet. But for my Crystal Ball playlist I'll have to re-create the edit and the segue into machine-gun version intro for Play In the Sunshine. (Sadly another segue that we don't have in remastered quality, only on boot.)

Oh but I think your option 1 idea is very cool - maybe I'll try that instead. Probably would sound great! And it's even funny because it would sound like Camille telling his background peeps to pipe down with all that Hey Hey shouting.

[Edited 9/30/20 7:55am]

[Edited 9/30/20 7:57am]

Nice comparison SquirrelMeat. Looking forward to seeing how the rest of the tracks shape up. 😁

no i have not had this problem

AvocadosMax said:

databank said:

Revolution81 said:

The most annoying thing about Wally is the fade out. Why have they done that? the end is perfect and natural without a fade

Apparently they haven't, this one is supposed to be as left by Prince not a new mix.

-

Well I beg to differ. You can hear on the leaked version there is absolutley no fade out or even a need for one.

Seems to me they have done it to try to hide an obvious tape defect. Its sacrilege IMO. It's like tearing out the last page of "Romeo and Juliet" because it had a tea stain or fading to black before the last scene in "Gone wiith the Wind" or something because they couldn't be bothered to spend the time/effort/money in trying to fix some damaged tape.

Some warble i could forgive, but that fade out is a piss take. I'd rather listen to the bootleg.

databank said:

lustmealways said:

Revolution81 said:

We'll never know for sure you're right but i also tend to think that this fade was not intented by Prince at the time but made later to hide the warble that's coming back at the very end of the song. Because it creates a very annoying kind of vibrato to the horns and other instruments which sound out of key because of that issue.

The version on Wally Safford's tape is the final mixdown. Why would Prince have added this fading later ?

[Edited 10/1/20 2:10am]