Neversin said:

This is the finished version of the track...
Prince did his thing gave his "work in progress" (just to spell it out for you idiots...) tape to Wendy, Lisa and Eric and they recorded their parts; they gave the tape back (still "work in progress" and by no means finished, so NOT to be released...) and Prince finished it and that is this final version...

The only way The Estate can satisfy everyone is by doing a "Beat the Boots" series or just a "Demo recordings" series and release everything in pristine quality of what is available on bootlegs and with traders...

Given the rate at which the Estate releases vault recordings, I’d rather they stick to releasing tracks in their intended finished state (insert your own reverb jokes here), rather than pursue the various draft versions that have leaked over the decades.

Personally I don’t like how the bootlegs are influencing decisions that are made when it comes to the official releases.

For example, why is ‘Rebirth Of The Flesh’ going to be given the suffix of (Original Outro)? Surely, if it’s the original unedited version it should just be refereed to as ‘Rebirth Of The Flesh’. The only reason the suffix was included was to distinguish it from the leaked ‘Crystal Ball’ album edit. Had that edit never leaked, then the title of the official release wouldn’t need to be altered, which is how the estate should be operating in the first place.

It was the same with ‘Electric Intercourse (Studio Version)’. As opposed to what? It’s the only version to be officially released. What they were trying to say was ‘Electric Intercourse (No, not the good version you’ve already heard)’.

Having said all that, there is one work in progress track that I would love to hear in full studio quality, and that’s the unedited version of ‘Crucial’ with Eric Leeds on Sax. Given that Prince decided to pull Eric’s contribution from the final version, it seems the chances of seeing this on a future release is beyond a prayer. Thinking about it, they have decided to run with ‘The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker (With Horns)’, so maybe WIP tracks are not entirely off the table. I suppose if Sony didn’t already have a hand on Crucial it could have happened.

databank said:

My rule would be: if a mixdown was made on any given day to see how the track sounds, it's a "version" and it should be released. Even if Prince made this mixdown on Day 1 with the firm intention of overdubbing the track on Day 2 and so on, it's what it was at a specific work in progress moment in time. That's where I'd draw the line if I was in charge.

I agree that the countless "album in progress configs" would make awesome RSD releases, and hopefully they'll realize that in due time

Here I would have to respectfully disagree. There have been times when Prince made a mixdown (or what I assume was a mixdown) and it’s clear that it doesn’t represent how the track was intended to be heard, thus I don’t consider it a ‘version’.

The best example I can think of is Crystal Ball.

To the best our knowledge there are only 2 versions of this song that were intended for release at any point…
The first being the ‘Dream Factory’ version that includes Wendy & Lisa’s backing vocals and the “Purple Underground” segment. The second version was the ‘Crystal Ball album’ version that removes Wendy and Lisa’s contributions and substitutes them with the orchestra.

Despite there only being two finished versions, there are a few mixdowns that bridge the gap between the two. For example, I’ve heard a version with Wendy and Lisa’s contribution that has a 1 to 2 minute kick drum intro. Clearly Prince never intended for this song to have a monotonous 2 minutes of kick drum. More likely, this is the version that was sent to Clare Fischer in order for him and his orchestra to perform over it. Then there was widely circulating hybrid of the two that included both the orchestra strings and the purple underground segment. Logically this was because they had no method of removing the this segment without taking a knife to the two inch master. It would be safer to mixdown the entire track to a ½ inch tape first and then remove the segment afterwards in the same way they would cut down a radio edit.

VaultCurator said:

databank said:

My rule would be: if a mixdown was made on any given day to see how the track sounds, it's a "version" and it should be released. Even if Prince made this mixdown on Day 1 with the firm intention of overdubbing the track on Day 2 and so on, it's what it was at a specific work in progress moment in time. That's where I'd draw the line if I was in charge.

I agree that the countless "album in progress configs" would make awesome RSD releases, and hopefully they'll realize that in due time

Here I would have to respectfully disagree. There have been times when Prince made a mixdown (or what I assume was a mixdown) and it’s clear that it doesn’t represent how the track was intended to be heard, thus I don’t consider it a ‘version’.

The best example I can think of is Crystal Ball.

To the best our knowledge there are only 2 versions of this song that were intended for release at any point…
The first being the ‘Dream Factory’ version that includes Wendy & Lisa’s backing vocals and the “Purple Underground” segment. The second version was the ‘Crystal Ball album’ version that removes Wendy and Lisa’s contributions and substitutes them with the orchestra.

Despite there only being two finished versions, there are a few mixdowns that bridge the gap between the two. For example, I’ve heard a version with Wendy and Lisa’s contribution that has a 1 to 2 minute kick drum intro. Clearly Prince never intended for this song to have a monotonous 2 minutes of kick drum. More likely, this is the version that was sent to Clare Fischer in order for him and his orchestra to perform over it. Then there was widely circulating hybrid of the two that included both the orchestra strings and the purple underground segment. Logically this was because they had no method of removing the this segment without taking a knife to the two inch master. It would be safer to mixdown the entire track to a ½ inch tape first and then remove the segment afterwards in the same way they would cut down a radio edit.

ha! A bold claim right there. If Prince was alive and saw that that's exactly what we'd be getting.

jaawwnn said:

ha! A bold claim right there. If Prince was alive and saw that that's exactly what we'd be getting.

True

I don't get the love this song gets, which is an ok song at best.

VaultCurator said:

databank said:

My rule would be: if a mixdown was made on any given day to see how the track sounds, it's a "version" and it should be released. Even if Prince made this mixdown on Day 1 with the firm intention of overdubbing the track on Day 2 and so on, it's what it was at a specific work in progress moment in time. That's where I'd draw the line if I was in charge.

I agree that the countless "album in progress configs" would make awesome RSD releases, and hopefully they'll realize that in due time

Here I would have to respectfully disagree. There have been times when Prince made a mixdown (or what I assume was a mixdown) and it’s clear that it doesn’t represent how the track was intended to be heard, thus I don’t consider it a ‘version’.

The best example I can think of is Crystal Ball.

To the best our knowledge there are only 2 versions of this song that were intended for release at any point…
The first being the ‘Dream Factory’ version that includes Wendy & Lisa’s backing vocals and the “Purple Underground” segment. The second version was the ‘Crystal Ball album’ version that removes Wendy and Lisa’s contributions and substitutes them with the orchestra.

Despite there only being two finished versions, there are a few mixdowns that bridge the gap between the two. For example, I’ve heard a version with Wendy and Lisa’s contribution that has a 1 to 2 minute kick drum intro. Clearly Prince never intended for this song to have a monotonous 2 minutes of kick drum. More likely, this is the version that was sent to Clare Fischer in order for him and his orchestra to perform over it. Then there was widely circulating hybrid of the two that included both the orchestra strings and the purple underground segment. Logically this was because they had no method of removing the this segment without taking a knife to the two inch master. It would be safer to mixdown the entire track to a ½ inch tape first and then remove the segment afterwards in the same way they would cut down a radio edit.

I understand your perspective.

.
However, to be clear, my point of reference is "how a song was mixed on a given day", not "how a track was intended to be heard" because, except for certain very documented cases such as a few in Duane's book, it's not always possible (for us but also for the estate) to know what Prince intended. Besides, Prince was notorious for changing his mind so it could be argued that nothing that he didn't release in his lifetime was intended to be heard; and there are some cases where he'd overdub something (with the obvious intention of releasing the song with the overdubs) then go back to the previous version because he liked it better (like what happened with Dorothy Parker and Eric); not to mention these posthumous recreations of the original mixes that he didn't approve... This also creates a very complicated system of version 1.0, 1.1, etc, that is based solely on P's assumed intentions instead of the nature and/or recording date of the recordings itself.

.

So one way to go would simply be to consider any new mix after overdubs/remix/edit a new version, and you'd literally get as many "versions" as there would be versions, no matter how little the differences and purely in chronological order.

.

Another option, however, could be to consider whether we're talking about a rework or a complete rerecording.

For example Witness would be 1.0 (guitar) and 1.1 (sax), then 2.0 (the "Camille" version).

This also mean that the PR version of WCF would be 1.0, and the GB version would be 1.4 (or something like that, depending on how many versions were made in 1989), while the 1986 versions, albeit recorded in between, would be 2.0, 2.1, etc.

Then, if you go real specific, the original unreleased cassette only mixdown of Make Up would be 1.0, the V6 released version is 1.1, the 2019 Niko Bolas mix is 1.3, etc.

.

So that's the systems I would consider, but in no case would they be based on a subjective and debatable concept like "what Prince intended", because this isn't rigorous enough IMHO, and leaves room to too much interpretation.

.

In the end and regardless of what nonsense Michael Howe chooses to write on the boxsets, the question this conversation raises is how the vault's inventory is being organized (since, we are told, such an inventory is being made).

.

There probably are other ways of doing it beyond what you and me propose, but no matter how he does it, I hope Michael Howe chose to do it with a rigourous and consistant system, one that can be used as a solid reference by those who will one day take over after him, and one that can also hopefully, one day, be used by researchers to study P's recording output.

VaultCurator said:

Having said all that, there is one work in progress track that I would love to hear in full studio quality, and that’s the unedited version of ‘Crucial’ with Eric Leeds on Sax. Given that Prince decided to pull Eric’s contribution from the final version, it seems the chances of seeing this on a future release is beyond a prayer. Thinking about it, they have decided to run with ‘The Ballad Of Dorothy Parker (With Horns)’, so maybe WIP tracks are not entirely off the table. I suppose if Sony didn’t already have a hand on Crucial it could have happened.

Eric Leed's finest moment bar none, the playing on that version is absolutely majestic.... literally the only time I'm underwhelmed in comparison by a Prince guitar-heavy alternate (or "final version").

ColinFaconskin said:

Oh this is gorgeous.

What is?

VaultCurator said:

databank said:

My rule would be: if a mixdown was made on any given day to see how the track sounds, it's a "version" and it should be released. Even if Prince made this mixdown on Day 1 with the firm intention of overdubbing the track on Day 2 and so on, it's what it was at a specific work in progress moment in time. That's where I'd draw the line if I was in charge.

I agree that the countless "album in progress configs" would make awesome RSD releases, and hopefully they'll realize that in due time

Here I would have to respectfully disagree. There have been times when Prince made a mixdown (or what I assume was a mixdown) and it’s clear that it doesn’t represent how the track was intended to be heard, thus I don’t consider it a ‘version’.

The best example I can think of is Crystal Ball.

To the best our knowledge there are only 2 versions of this song that were intended for release at any point…
The first being the ‘Dream Factory’ version that includes Wendy & Lisa’s backing vocals and the “Purple Underground” segment. The second version was the ‘Crystal Ball album’ version that removes Wendy and Lisa’s contributions and substitutes them with the orchestra.

Despite there only being two finished versions, there are a few mixdowns that bridge the gap between the two. For example, I’ve heard a version with Wendy and Lisa’s contribution that has a 1 to 2 minute kick drum intro. Clearly Prince never intended for this song to have a monotonous 2 minutes of kick drum. More likely, this is the version that was sent to Clare Fischer in order for him and his orchestra to perform over it. Then there was widely circulating hybrid of the two that included both the orchestra strings and the purple underground segment. Logically this was because they had no method of removing the this segment without taking a knife to the two inch master. It would be safer to mixdown the entire track to a ½ inch tape first and then remove the segment afterwards in the same way they would cut down a radio edit.

Not to yuck your yum, cuz I do agree - but the voice on CB is Susannah. W&L are not present. Key difference!

Witness 4 The Prosecution

I am a witness for the prosecution of a hate in this love affair
I who am guilty of nothin' but always wantin' you to be there
Mama, I swear I love you, I always have
In school I once traded chairs
If I couldn't feel you
I wanted what was yours
Now I just want you to care

I am a witness (witness)

I'm a witness (witness for the prosecution)
For the prosecution of a hate in this love affair
Whatever it is, you think that I did
You're wrong, I wouldn't even dare
'Cause you know I am a witness
For the prosecution in this love affair (witness for the prosecution)
Don't you know I, I am a witness, witness (witness for the prosecution)

I am a witness for the prosecution of a hate in this love affair, yeah
I who am guilty of nothin' but always wantin' you to be...

I am a witness for the prosecution of a hate in this love affair, yeah
I who am guilty of nothin' but always wantin' you to be there, be there
Oh, I swear, by heaven I love you
I always have
In school I once traded chairs
If I couldn't be near you
I wanted what was yours
Now I just want you to care

I am a witness for the prosecution of a hate in this love affair, yeah
(Witness for the prosecution) yes, I am
Let me tell you whatever it is, you think that I did
You're wrong, I wouldn't even dare
(Witness for the prosecution)

Guilt, seven years hard labor, take him away

AvocadosMax said:

Ok no one make fun of me with this question... But what does the line ‘in school i once traded chairs’ mean??? Lol is it an old saying or something?

Not sure if you are from the good old USA or not, but here is my take on it, since I grew up in the same era as Prince in the midwest.

In elementary school (most of the time) the teacher sat you in rows in alphabetical order. I guess so she or he could memorize your name better. For the rest of the school year, that was "your chair".

Prince in this song has a crush on this girl, so probably he switches his chair for the desk/chair she has been sitting in all school year. He will never get to sit next to her because his last name is "Nelson", and her name could be Williams, so she is clear across the room.

He wants to sit on the chair her butt has been covering for a while............

No harm in asking, bub.

Anyhow, that's what I think!

Seahorsie said:

Dump the horns.

2freaky4church1 said:

ForceofNature said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Dump the horns.

Wouldn't that be a reverse Frankenstein mix?

.

Also not really MPLS-sounding.

I almost hear Batman in the distance with this song, this version.

It doesn't have to be a perfect song... I enjoy it very much because it's another piece of art from Prince.

udo said:

ForceofNature said:

2freaky4church1 said: Wouldn't that be a reverse Frankenstein mix?

.

Also not really MPLS-sounding.

I almost hear Batman in the distance with this song, this version.

I always thought that of Version 2. I always placed it somewhere in the Rave/Batman era.

KlyphIsBackAgain said:

At the end of version 1 of Witness in the 7" boxset Prince can be heard saying "1,2,3...". This isn't on the digital version.

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Any other differences on that mix? I mean, if there is a difference at the end, it has to be a different mix. Is there any way you can record it to a digital file so an A/B comparison can be done?

KlyphIsBackAgain said:

At the end of version 1 of Witness in the 7" boxset Prince can be heard saying "1,2,3...". This isn't on the digital version.

"At the end", meaning right after "take him away"?

Is that something we've heard before on bootlegs? The only "1, 2, 3" that comes to mind is the one at the beginning of "Girl O' My Dreams", but it's not even right at the beginning of the song and the date doesn't match, of course.

olb99 said:

KlyphIsBackAgain said:

At the end of version 1 of Witness in the 7" boxset Prince can be heard saying "1,2,3...". This isn't on the digital version.

"At the end", meaning right after "take him away"?

Is that something we've heard before on bootlegs? The only "1, 2, 3" that comes to mind is the one at the beginning of "Girl O' My Dreams", but it's not even right at the beginning of the song and the date doesn't match, of course.

It's Movie Star as heard on one of the Dream Factory configs

olb99 said:

Revolution81 said: