LoveGalore said:

mbdtyler said:

The horns toward the end are cool, I meant the horn stabs throughout the first half though. They're more distracting than anything, same with the horns harmonizing with the guitar during the prechoruses or whatever you want to call them

Cosign. When I first heard this version, I cringed. I still cringe. You can tell that Prince didn't produce that or the background vocals because it's the same overbearing, out of place crap they did to Wonderful Ass as well. It's not surprising he wasn't feeling the gig anymore. They started to encroach way too much with just nauseating choices every time production was in their hands. Compare that to the horns he arranged for, say, Yah U Know which flow with the song rather than kick the song in the balls and smack it in the back of the head.

hmm

I love the backing vocals on this but I GREATLY prefer the in-progress version of Wonderful Ass. I guess second guessing how Prince thought and why people got sacked takes all sorts.

Anyway, Neversin's angry, angry, idea of a works-in-progress release would be great! They've done it for Marc Bolan loads so it's not like it's not possible.

[Edited 6/26/20 9:42am]

LausOrg said:

LausOrg said:

Neversin said:

Fucking hell, the stupidity here...
This is the finished version of the track...
Prince did his thing gave his "work in progress" (just to spell it out for you idiots...) tape to Wendy, Lisa and Eric and they recorded their parts; they gave the tape back (still "work in progress" and by no means finished, so NOT to be released...) and Prince finished it and that is this final version...

The "work in progress" tapes all were copied back in the 1980's (the unmixed Wendy, Lisa and Eric version has more to it than what is in the finished version...) and found their way in the hands of fans who sold them to bootleggers...

What some idiots in here claim to be "the real version 1" is just Prince's tape he didn't consider finished and made him mad as fuck when it leaked and found their way onto bootlegs...
When artists record something this is their biggest nightmare and Prince himself was too naive by the way he handled his (demo) recordings, it took him decades to wisen up...

The only way The Estate can satisfy everyone is by doing a "Beat the Boots" series or just a "Demo recordings" series and release everything in pristine quality of what is available on bootlegs and with traders...
This will probbaly never happen because they don't even use "Record Store Day" properly...
They could even do their own version of it called "Wrecka Stow Day" a week later or something and provide unreleased album configs with extensive liner notes and (un)finished artwork... They could even entice collectors and provide limited edition (coloured) 7" / 12" vinyl singles for tracks that were planned for single releases...

So many no-brainer options and they always keep choosing the laziest...

Neversin.

[Edited 6/26/20 3:06am]

Neversin, did you have the chance to listen to Prince's own mix of this final version? If so, how different is it to the one we have here from Niko Bolas? I am asking because of the odd choice of panning Prince's vocal track to the left and leaving the Hammond organ track relatively loud in the mix (Prince would usually bury all Hammonds, e.g. "Interactive", etc.). Also, the credits shown in Tidal read "Guitar - Wendy Melvoin", but all the guitar work seems to be exactly the same as the one found in the work-in-progress/demo version featuring just drums, bass and guitar. Do you know if Prince's guitar was actually replaced in any way with Wendy's or is this just a mistake in the credits?

The Tidal credit is probably another one of there mistakes (they have a lot of mistakes on there) and where is it stated that Niko Bolas did a new mix??
This mix sounds exactly the same as the bootleg versions only in better sound quality.

Neversin said:

Fucking hell, the stupidity here...
This is the finished version of the track...
Prince did his thing gave his "work in progress" (just to spell it out for you idiots...) tape to Wendy, Lisa and Eric and they recorded their parts; they gave the tape back (still "work in progress" and by no means finished, so NOT to be released...) and Prince finished it and that is this final version...

The "work in progress" tapes all were copied back in the 1980's (the unmixed Wendy, Lisa and Eric version has more to it than what is in the finished version...) and found their way in the hands of fans who sold them to bootleggers...

What some idiots in here claim to be "the real version 1" is just Prince's tape he didn't consider finished and made him mad as fuck when it leaked and found their way onto bootlegs...
When artists record something this is their biggest nightmare and Prince himself was too naive by the way he handled his (demo) recordings, it took him decades to wisen up...

The only way The Estate can satisfy everyone is by doing a "Beat the Boots" series or just a "Demo recordings" series and release everything in pristine quality of what is available on bootlegs and with traders...
This will probbaly never happen because they don't even use "Record Store Day" properly...
They could even do their own version of it called "Wrecka Stow Day" a week later or something and provide unreleased album configs with extensive liner notes and (un)finished artwork... They could even entice collectors and provide limited edition (coloured) 7" / 12" vinyl singles for tracks that were planned for single releases...

So many no-brainer options and they always keep choosing the laziest...

Neversin.

[Edited 6/26/20 3:06am]

My rule would be: if a mixdown was made on any given day to see how the track sounds, it's a "version" and it should be released. Even if Prince made this mixdown on Day 1 with the firm intention of overdubbing the track on Day 2 and so on, it's what it was at a specific work in progress moment in time. That's where I'd draw the line if I was in charge.

I agree that the countless "album in progress configs" would make awesome RSD releases, and hopefully they'll realize that in due time

Sorry if it was already highlighted in this thread:

1/When I compare the official release with the unreleased version of Dream Factory. You can hear in the fade out of the unreleased version, Prince counting as the song would B sequenced with another.

Have U noticed it?

2/What about the other 1989 version of Witness 4 The Prosecution that is circulating? Why isn't it listed in Prince vault? Would it be the one as listed Version 2 in the SOTT Super Deluxe despite the time frame considered?

BoraBora said:

Being a P fan from Sign/Lovesexy era, I remember when I listened for the first time to "Witness".... it was the "Crystal Ball" BMA Music International bootleg CD.
It was a "guilty" delight, then and after.
For all these years I never really believed that it could be released.

So I find funny that now that finally "Witness" (and obviously all the fantastic tracks included in this SDE) is officially released in pristine quality there are claims for the sound quality, claims for the autenticity of the track (the "Frankenstein" drama), claims for the #1 or #2 to use, claims for the choice as a "single", etc.

Come on. It's Prince. It's "Witness". It's still a real delight. Enjoy it as it is, simply marvelous.

And for the prices, if I remember well I payed something like 30 Euro (converted) for that CD in 1990. So I can't see anything obscene to pay now what is requested for a box of audio jewels like this SDE.

Just my two cents.

I'm a Prince purist but i agree 100% with your comment!

Ramzoo said:

Sorry if it was already highlighted in this thread:

1/When I compare the official release with the unreleased version of Dream Factory. You can hear in the fade out of the unreleased version, Prince counting as the song would B sequenced with another.

Have U noticed it?

2/What about the other 1989 version of Witness 4 The Prosecution that is circulating? Why isn't it listed in Prince vault? Would it be the one as listed Version 2 in the SOTT Super Deluxe despite the time frame considered?

This is because what we have comes from the 3rd configuration of DF, where it leads (and counts) into Movie Star. This doesn't mean the "new" version is a reconstruction because obviously there would first be an individual mixdown of each songs before they would be sequenced (and occasionally crossfaded) on what would become the master for an album.

Ramzoo said:

Sorry if it was already highlighted in this thread:

1/When I compare the official release with the unreleased version of Dream Factory. You can hear in the fade out of the unreleased version, Prince counting as the song would B sequenced with another.

Have U noticed it?

2/What about the other 1989 version of Witness 4 The Prosecution that is circulating? Why isn't it listed in Prince vault? Would it be the one as listed Version 2 in the SOTT Super Deluxe despite the time frame considered?

What you call the version from 1989 is in fact from 6 October 1986. It is listed on Princevault as Version #2 (now released) and the version listed as unreleased is that other bootleg we have of Version #1 without overdubs. Of note is the fact that Pvault have just updated recording sessions with more details, meaning Duane has given them the details from his upcoming book on the SOTT Deluxe tracks, which is pretty cool

After listening closely to the remastered version, the mix sounds identical to the Dream Factory (listed as the 18 July 1986 configuration) version that i own.

Never really paid much attention to this when it was a bootleg (shout out to Crystal Ball II) but this joint is funky as hell...

databank said:

Ramzoo said:

Sorry if it was already highlighted in this thread:

1/When I compare the official release with the unreleased version of Dream Factory. You can hear in the fade out of the unreleased version, Prince counting as the song would B sequenced with another.

Have U noticed it?

2/What about the other 1989 version of Witness 4 The Prosecution that is circulating? Why isn't it listed in Prince vault? Would it be the one as listed Version 2 in the SOTT Super Deluxe despite the time frame considered?

What you call the version from 1989 is in fact from 6 October 1986. It is listed on Princevault as Version #2 (now released) and the version listed as unreleased is that other bootleg we have of Version #1 without overdubs. Of note is the fact that Pvault have just updated recording sessions with more details, meaning Duane has given them the details from his upcoming book on the SOTT Deluxe tracks, which is pretty cool

Thank U so much 4 your answer. I was then misleading thinking that the second version was from 1989. I'll update my vault!

Ramzoo said:

databank said:

What you call the version from 1989 is in fact from 6 October 1986. It is listed on Princevault as Version #2 (now released) and the version listed as unreleased is that other bootleg we have of Version #1 without overdubs. Of note is the fact that Pvault have just updated recording sessions with more details, meaning Duane has given them the details from his upcoming book on the SOTT Deluxe tracks, which is pretty cool

Thank U so much 4 your answer. I was then misleading thinking that the second version was from 1989. I'll update my vault!

Anytime

databank said:

highcalonic said:

After listening closely to the remastered version, the mix sounds identical to the Dream Factory (listed as the 18 July 1986 configuration) version that i own.

I thought the same, even the overall sound quality is not drastically different

mbdtyler said:

Whatever dudes. This "Version 1" is a mess and sounds even more unfinished. Way too much happening that dont fit together. There's a reason this was left off and never released. Not the first time Prince messed up a good tune with too many layers and instruments (e.g. Endorphinemachine).

Compare this track with the beautiful madness that is "Lift can be so nice".

databank said:

databank said:

My rule would be: if a mixdown was made on any given day to see how the track sounds, it's a "version" and it should be released.

I think that's the precedent set by the Strawberry Fields versions out there to handle the multiple takes.

It makes sense but there needs to be a cleaner way to differentiate between a demo, a demo from a different period, a work in progress version and an actual alternative version of a song. The Estate just has to come up with language to classify these and use it consistently. I think we could all think of ways to do this.

jaawwnn said:

databank said:

My rule would be: if a mixdown was made on any given day to see how the track sounds, it's a "version" and it should be released. Even if Prince made this mixdown on Day 1 with the firm intention of overdubbing the track on Day 2 and so on, it's what it was at a specific work in progress moment in time. That's where I'd draw the line if I was in charge.

I agree that the countless "album in progress configs" would make awesome RSD releases, and hopefully they'll realize that in due time

I remember years ago coming across a thread by a guy who was trying to recreate, day by day, the making of Sgt Peppers Lonely Heart Club. I say we won't be happy on Prince.org until we can recreate, hour by hour, overdub by overdub, Prince's recording process for every album. And I am here for that!

I actually prefer some of the earlier takes of The Beatles, like Strawberry Field, Across The Universe and I'm Looking Through etc.

I think, where we will suffer as Prince fans is, he has so much unreleased music, that dropping back to previous takes isn't required to fill vast SDE boxsets.

Most of the Beatles unreleased songs were on the cutting room floor for good reason, so alternate takes are the butter for their fans muffins.

SquirrelMeat said:

well i think prince is better than the Beatles so that's one who does. The Beatles were fantastic of course. Its like Elvis isnt it ,once their gone they become untouchable .I think Prince will get more appreciated in time .

Contrary to some of the preferences here, I actually like this version best with Wendy and Lisa's vocal additions! They add a really cool gospel and funky call and response that makes the track even more epic and fuller sounding - more realized, which I bet is why Prince gave them this track to add onto to begin with.


The work-in-progress mix without their additions always sounded empty and unfinished by comparison, which is essentially just stating the obvious considering it is a work in progress mix

Wolfie87 said:

lavendardrummachine said:

databank said:

My rule would be: if a mixdown was made on any given day to see how the track sounds, it's a "version" and it should be released.

I think that's the precedent set by the Strawberry Fields versions out there to handle the multiple takes.

It makes sense but there needs to be a cleaner way to differentiate between a demo, a demo from a different period, a work in progress version and an actual alternative version of a song. The Estate just has to come up with language to classify these and use it consistently. I think we could all think of ways to do this.

Well, what's a demo? A recording that the author never considered for release from the minute they began recording it. Then what if they change their mind and think "this is too good" and release it as such (it's happened)? What's a work in progress when an artist can actually go back to an earlier version and choose to release it because either he deems the overdubs or the complete rerecording inadequate (it's happened too)?

No, what you have is merely 2 things: basic tracking + reworks and complete rerecording + reworks.

Example: We Can Fuck 1983 = Version 1.0 -> All these 1989 up to 1993 versions of We Can Funk = Version 1.1, 1.2, etc. // We Can Funk 1986 -> Its summer 1986 reworking = Versions 2.0 -> 2.1.

Same with I Feel For You to take a very clear example of a "demo". You have the demo released last year which is Version 1.0, then the album version = Version 2.0 (or maybe 2.1 if there's a 2.0 in the vault, you get the spirit).

NOW do I ask the estate to call Witness "Witness 1.2" in a package that contains Witness 1.2 and Witness 2.0? I don't care, particularly since there's such a mess to figure out in the vault. Let's just call it #1 and #2 in the context of this release, it's fine, fans can then figure it out with the bootlegs if we have them, and if we don't then it's only confusing for no reason.

[Edited 6/26/20 16:29pm]

jaawwnn said:

databank said:

My rule would be: if a mixdown was made on any given day to see how the track sounds, it's a "version" and it should be released. Even if Prince made this mixdown on Day 1 with the firm intention of overdubbing the track on Day 2 and so on, it's what it was at a specific work in progress moment in time. That's where I'd draw the line if I was in charge.

I agree that the countless "album in progress configs" would make awesome RSD releases, and hopefully they'll realize that in due time

I remember years ago coming across a thread by a guy who was trying to recreate, day by day, the making of Sgt Peppers Lonely Heart Club. I say we won't be happy on Prince.org until we can recreate, hour by hour, overdub by overdub, Prince's recording process for every album. And I am here for that!

I honestly don't need the multitrack for each song. Just basically what Duane is doing = if (and that's IF, because info has been lost along the way) you can identify that on Day X a mixdown was made that was this, then I'm interested.

databank said:

No, what you have is merely 2 things: basic tracking + reworks and complete rerecording + reworks.

I disagree with this but that's neither here nor there, my point is that the Estate needs to define what they mean and create categories, then stick to it. If they wanted to throw everything into 2 categories (you actually named 3 categories), and stuck to it, then let fans sort out the rest, that would work, but they need to figure out what they're calling what and stick to it. I personally would prefer nothing was left up to the fans to sort out on our own. In some case knowing the time frame could be indication enough, or "early version" has been standard. These are things that record companies have been doing.

[Edited 6/26/20 16:16pm]

lavendardrummachine said:

databank said:

No, what you have is merely 2 things: basic tracking + reworks and complete rerecording + reworks.

I disagree with this but that's neither here nor there, my point is that the Estate needs to define what they mean and create categories, then stick to it. If they wanted to throw everything into 2 categories (you actually named 3 categories), and stuck to it, then let fans sort out the rest, that would work, but they need to figure out what they're calling what and stick to it. I personally would prefer nothing was left up to the fans to sort out on our own. In some case knowing the time frame could be indication enough, or "early version" has been standard. These are things that record companies have been doing.

[Edited 6/26/20 16:16pm]

Did I name 3 categories??? O_o Then I must have been unclear I'm sorry.

I'm interested in what system you'd propose but either way since the current remasters program is not to be comprehensive, I don't think the way they label versions matter too much, as long as known recording dates are given (then we totally have enough info to sort it out, don't we?).

databank said:

Did I name 3 categories??? O_o Then I must have been unclear I'm sorry.

I'm interested in what system you'd propose but either way since the current remasters program is not to be comprehensive, I don't think the way they label versions matter too much, as long as known recording dates are given (then we totally have enough info to sort it out, don't we?).

I don't really think it matters what system they use, what you listed was certainly valid as an option that would add even more clarity than what we're getting, I just think it needs more categories and for them to be clear for everyone.

Someone on Youtube had it as the "Dream Factory version", that would have worked too.

None of this should be a discussion, is what I'm saying. Neversin shouldn't have to detail what the bootleg version was, and fans shouldn't have to argue if they're hearing a posthomous edit version.

The Estate also shouldn't take for granted that sites like The Vault exist, and people on forums like this are sorting things out. Their approach from release to release has changed (going by era to going by project, kinda), and they're now considering that streaming audiences will have options to re-sequence, both of which are fine, but at the very minimum they need to document as they release.

"Early vocal run through", "Original outro"....I mean, okay they're describing version, no wait they're using nicknames, no wait, they're titling things for the people who listen to bootlegs based on the outro... it's just needlessly confusing, and we know they might one day release the demos, or working drafts of Witness 4 the Prosecution on top of it, which would include at least 2 other "versions" or whatever you want to think of them as, maybe more.

[Edited 6/26/20 17:54pm]