violetcrush said:

bonatoc said:

Such bad faith. John L. was nowhere near The Wrecking Crew
in terms of experience "in the business".

Exactly. Prince's Father was a struggling Jazz player doing the Burlessque circuit in MN during the 50's and 60's. He had a full time day job, and played with his band at night. He had talent, but was not on the level of Mr. Coleman and Mr. Melvoin. They played with all of the top recording artist of the 60's and 70's.

*

Wendy and Lisa have talked about this many times. They would have musicians hanging out at their homes and jamming with their parents. Wendy first played Bass with Leon Russell at her house when she was 8 years old. Lisa stated that Rita Coolidge would babysit her when she was little.

*

So, all of the Coleman/Melvoin kids were completely immersed in the big-time music scene from very young ages.

What do you know about that historically? Arbitrary & reductionist.

ALL elders contribute to everything, DUH. Who R U 2 say who Prince's father was artistically anyway? The "Burlesque circut" was where the big time exploiters landed their musical talent. PLENTY of extraordinary musicians have full-time day jobs, then & now. Shame on U 4 for calling that out as if it was a bad thing, or suggests talent. Get Real.

[Edited 5/15/20 10:14am]

lrn36 said:

JudasLChrist said:

The idea that people wig the fuck out cause they suspect racism when praise or credit is given to Prince's most lauded white bandmembers such as W&L is so embedded and old in these discussions that I forgot about it.

I don't believe that Wendy ever claimed to have introduced Prince to Jazz, but I sure as hell bet her and Lisa introduced him to some of the heavy 70s shit. In fact I know they did. The comment about intuition, as I remember, was in response to a question about P releationship to music theory, and I think it was actually about Mountains (or life can be so nice), and how he pulled a complcated change out of out of the air. I have read the thing about not wanting the Rev to turn into an R+B/funk review, and I never got that because that would fucking rule, and Parade was such rad period for that band.

America is a fucked up, racist shitshow, and I don't fault anyone for suspecting racism around every corner.

To be fair, Wendy also credited Prince as her biggest influence on guitar. She was floored when Prince wrote the Beautiful Ones seemingly out of nowhere. She said he was running on all cylinders. There is obviously a tremendous love and respect W & L have for Prince. I get the impression they thought the Revolution could be the next Beatles and Prince just wasn't commited to that idea. Maybe that disappointment still festers in some way.

I don't think W & L wanted or expected to be the next Beatles. Wendy has stated - regarding Prince's decision to disband The Revolution - that she was shocked, because they had just recorded enough music to complete several albums. Then, when he released SOTT they found that all or most of their contributions had been stripped. Things that don't exactly leave a 'warm and fuzzy" feeling inside when thinking about them.

donnyenglish said:

violetcrush said:

YES!!! And over a year before Syracuse as a 19 yr old on stage at a "busting at the seams" First Avenue debuting as the new guitarist in the band, and playiing the first chords of Purple Rain for a seemingly endless stretch of time while your leader slowly saunters around you on stage....

*

*

Sorry, but I would say she's underrated - NOT overrated...

She butchered the intro and he had to overdub it.

*

Way to really spin that story to fit YOUR narrative!!! The MAGA cult could use you in their camp.

*

I'm sure it had nothing at all to do with the fact that Prince had her playing the intro for about 10 minutes before he began singing....nah, nothing at all to do with that

poppys said:

violetcrush said:

Exactly. Prince's Father was a struggling Jazz player doing the Burlessque circuit in MN during the 50's and 60's. He had a full time day job, and played with his band at night. He had talent, but was not on the level of Mr. Coleman and Mr. Melvoin. They played with all of the top recording artist of the 60's and 70's.

*

Wendy and Lisa have talked about this many times. They would have musicians hanging out at their homes and jamming with their parents. Wendy first played Bass with Leon Russell at her house when she was 8 years old. Lisa stated that Rita Coolidge would babysit her when she was little.

*

So, all of the Coleman/Melvoin kids were completely immersed in the big-time music scene from very young ages.

What do you know about that historically? Arbitrary & reductionist.

ALL elders contribute to everything, DUH. Who R U 2 say who Prince's father was artistically anyway? The "Burlesque circut" was where the big time exploiters landed their musical talent. PLENTY of extraordinary musicians have full-time day jobs, then & now. Shame on U 4 for calling that out as if it was a bad thing, or suggests talent. Get Real.

[Edited 5/15/20 10:14am]

NOW YOU are reading into MY comments, and spinning them to fit your choice of my tone and meaning. WHERE in my post did I state ANYTHING negative about Prince's Father playing the Burlesque circuit?? NO question there were great musicians playing there. HOWEVER, how many of them were able to break out and make hit records?? Not fair, but it was the reality. PRINCE has also stated his Dad wanted to be a recording artist. CHRIS MOON also stated Prince - just after he got his recording deal - asked him if he could "make my Dad famous" - he met with his Dad, but felt he could not help him based on his age at that time. PRINCE'S FATHER, during his interview with MTV at the '86 UTCM premiere specifically stated to Martha Quinn that he "played the strip clubs in MN".

*

So, PLEASE, refrain from implications of any sort of derrogatory claims about my written words when I stated nothing of the kind.

[Edited 5/15/20 10:32am]

violetcrush said:

poppys said:

What do you know about that historically? Arbitrary & reductionist.

ALL elders contribute to everything, DUH. Who R U 2 say who Prince's father was artistically anyway? The "Burlesque circut" was where the big time exploiters landed their musical talent. PLENTY of extraordinary musicians have full-time day jobs, then & now. Shame on U 4 for calling that out as if it was a bad thing, or suggests talent. Get Real.

[Edited 5/15/20 10:14am]

NOW YOU are reading into MY comments, and spinning them to fit how your choice of my tone and meaning. WHERE in my post did I state ANYTHING negative about Prince's Father playing the Burlesque circuit?? NO question there were great musicians playing there. HOWEVER, how many of them were able to break out and make hit records?? Not fair, but it was the reality. PRINCE has also stated his Dad wanted to be a recording artist. CHRIS MOON also stated Prince - just after he got his recording deal - asked him if he could "make my Dad famous" - he met with his Dad, but felt he could not help him based on his age at that time. PRINCE'S FATHER, during his interview with MTV at the '86 UTCM premiere specifically stated to Martha Quinn that he "played the strip clubs in MN".

*

So, PLEASE, refrain from implications of any sort derrogatory claims about my written words when I stated nothing of the kind.

Here you go poppys - a link to the UTCM premiere party interview with Prince's Father, which starts at 8:06....

*

John L Nelson: "I was called Prince, because I was a piano player for strippers down on Hennopin Avenue in Minneapolis, having a lot of fun."

*

*

Oh, and Wendy KILLS it on the funky guitar licks during Controversy...

https://m.youtube.com/wat...e97LW90d1Q

[Edited 5/15/20 10:42am]

CherryMoon57 said:

There is a difference between the story of Lisa showing Prince a new chord technique and then a fan misleading other fans by insinuating Prince didn't know who Bill Evans was until he met Lisa (as I said above, Bill Evans had been a big jazz name for long and Prince wasn't born in the 80s!). There lies the subtle difference which may lead to some fans' indignation.

I think the indignation comes from wanting the musical genius and star in the equation to also be the most musically knowledgeable. That's rarely the case. The notion seems to be there couldn't be anyone else in the room Prince surrounded himself with who would have had a musical idea or skillset or a record in their collection that Prince didn't already posess.

You can definintely read that like he bonded over Bill Evans instead of got introduced, but the idea his collaborators never influenced him or contributed or turned him on to a hole in his musical literacy and that he never grew from the time he was 18 is just fan weirdness.

violetcrush said:

lavendardrummachine said:

CherryMoon57 said:

There is a difference between the story of Lisa showing Prince a new chord technique and then a fan misleading other fans by insinuating Prince didn't know who Bill Evans was until he met Lisa (as I said above, Bill Evans had been a big jazz name for long and Prince wasn't born in the 80s!). There lies the subtle difference which may lead to some fans' indignation.

I think the indignation comes from wanting the musical genius and star in the equation to also be the most musically knowledgeable. That's rarely the case. The notion seems to be there couldn't be anyone else in the room Prince surrounded himself with who would have had a musical idea or skillset or a record in their collection that Prince didn't already posess.

You can definintely read that like he bonded over Bill Evans instead of got introduced, but the idea his collaborators never influenced him or contributed or turned him on to a hole in his musical literacy and that he never grew from the time he was 18 is just fan weirdness.

*

Lisa has stated that she is/was classically trained on piano from a young age, and that she would play some of the pieces she knew for Prince and his Dad. She said she told them that if you can read and play classical music then you can play anything.

*

There is also a huge difference between "knowing of" Bill Evans being a Jazz pianist, and actually knowing his specific music and/or how to play it. Big difference.

*

I just think it's funny how some of the "Prince was such a genius and he knew everything" fans seem to think he had all the time in the world to learn and study every musician's music back then, especially when he and many others have stated their access to diverse music was extrememly limited. Prince has also stated that his Father was NOT open to sharing his music with him when he was younger. He refused to let him touch his piano. So, Prince was on his own with learning music back then. Their bond began when he proved that he could be successful.

[Edited 5/15/20 10:50am]

violetcrush said:

violetcrush said:

Here you go poppys - a link to the UTCM premiere party interview with Prince's Father, which starts at 8:06....

*

John L Nelson: "I was called Prince, because I was a piano player for strippers down on Hennopin Avenue in Minneapolis, having a lot of fun."

*

Right. John Nelson's entire life and history in a spoken blurb IS THE definitive. Pathetic. I'm out with the psycho/needy, as always.

[Edited 5/15/20 12:27pm]

ChocolateBox3121 said:

I can't WAIT to hear Prince's(r.i.p.) 12" of "Mountains" included in the Parade Deluxe coming up.

He put his foot in that one.

Huh? Is there a new version of that 12 inch coming out? That's one of my favourite Prince songs of all time.

violetcrush said:

bonatoc said:

Such bad faith. John L. was nowhere near The Wrecking Crew
in terms of experience "in the business".

[Edited 5/14/20 21:07pm]

Exactly. Prince's Father was a struggling Jazz player doing the Burlessque circuit in MN during the 50's and 60's. He had a full time day job, and played with his band at night. He had talent, but was not on the level of Mr. Coleman and Mr. Melvoin. They played with all of the top recording artist of the 60's and 70's.

*

Wendy and Lisa have talked about this many times. They would have musicians hanging out at their homes and jamming with their parents. Wendy first played Bass with Leon Russell at her house when she was 8 years old. Lisa stated that Rita Coolidge would babysit her when she was little.

*

So, all of the Coleman/Melvoin kids were completely immersed in the big-time music scene from very young ages.

Do you realise how wrong all of this sounds on so many levels? What do you think of artists such as Bill Withers then? He came from a non-musical background, only started a musical career later in life prior to which he made toilets for aircrafts... Does that make him musically irrelevant?

And so what if Prince's early entourage was not as musically accomplished as Wendy's and Lisa's? What really matters is that they all met up at one point and made some great music together. Why the need to boast about who was more entitled to recognition than another based on the amount of celebrities who were around who and when...

jaawwnn said:

databank said:

Just to set the record straight, W&L's co-writing contributions on Mountains, Sometimes It's Snows In April and Power Fantastic may not have been credited on the albums, but they were copyrighted by Prince when he registered the songs at ASCAP (as can be verified by searching the Universal Publishing database https://www.umusicpub.com...ary/search). So those clowns who are now trying to take advantage of other fans' lack of factual knowledge to rewrite history and claim that W&L are making up shit and claiming credits where credit is not due are just wasting everyone's time by pretending there is cause for debate where there is none. This is really annoying because it doesn't take 3 minutes to do the proper research on a free, public database!! In certain cases it's hard to verify claims by various associates because there are contradicting versions, or the person making the co-writing claim isn't backed up by other associates or material evidence, but here the case was closed before it was even opened!

NOW there is the case of SISIA being mentioned as existing as early as 1977, and this was known before P's memoir was published since Dez auctioned a cassette some years back that contained this early version. By Dez' own words it was an unfinished, “virtually unrecognizable version” of the song (https://consequenceofsoun...r-auction/). Sadly, Princevault did not add this information to the song's entry, so admitedly this information was a little harder to find if one didn't already know about it, but it still shows the importance of doing one's homework before calling people liars. Nevertheless, whomever ended-up with this cassette unfortunately chose not to leak its content, but we already have enough information to determine that it was a very different song from the 1985 version, which easily explains how W&L could contribute and get credit on that final version.

.

I apologize for going all Bart and calling people clowns, but in the end I end-up wasting my time writing this after TWO PAGES of a completely pointless debate, started by people who think they've just invented the wheel but don't have a clue what they're talking about, while the information was there for all to see without spending too much time researching it. This is annoying and I hope these fellow fans will learn to do some research before throwing accusations and trying to put nonsense in other people's heads.

.

Peace

I appreciate this post, but at the same time you can't exactly trust this stuff anymore than the stories unless you actually want to believe that Jesse Johnson's credit on Jungle Love being retroactively removed from the database is some weird space time continuum change where Prince went back in time and showed him the beat or something?

Copyrights are not an absolute of course. There are cases where we now know that Prince either failed to register someone as a co-authors OR gave away royalties by registering someone who didn't write a song. In the case of Mountains, SISIA and PF, it is therefore POSSIBLE that Prince, out of generosity, could have decided to give money to W&L. I believe that for at least PW, we have third parties who confirmed that it was based on a W&L composition. I'm honestly not sure if that's the case with M and SISIA, though since the whole band plays on Mountains I guess there were witnesses to the process. In any case, I'm pretty sure Duane's next book will contains more testimonies about all 3 songs' genesis.

.

This being said, admitting that, and only IF, no one confirmed W&L's contributions yet, while it is POSSIBLE that P gave away royalties on Mountains and SISIA, we have to use Occam's razor here. In the absence of any further information challenging a song's registration, it is reasonable to assume the registration is correct. There is simply no valid reason, no valid argument not to. Or then anyone could go on the Org and claim that Prince in fact composed the whole Taje Sevelle album, but that on the other hand Taja Sevelle composed half the Sign "O" The Times album, just because it sounds right to them. Or anyone could claim that Michael B. Nelson didn't write the horns part on Billy Jack Bitch simply because The Hornheads never had a hit record. This is silly. This is not how knowledge is produced. This is just a major waste of everyone's time.

violetcrush said:

rednblue said:

EXACTLY! Wholeheartedly agree! And why, though descriptive quotes aren't the ultimate truth of what happened, it's a real problem to not accurately paraphrase what someone said/claim someone said something that they didn't say/etc.

There's obviously also a limit to quotes in print, as people can be misquoted.

There's a further difficulty that even with accurate quotes, people may or may not correctly assign meaning to those quotes, as in what "was meant," as in what the speaker intended to convey.

But all this is why I was interested to try to at least start with all the actual words Prince spoke in that concert about that subject.

[Edited 5/15/20 7:36am]

Listen to Lisa's discussion with Questlove on his Pandora show if you haven't yet heard it. Lisa specifically speaks to being classically trained, and playing those pieces for Prince and his Dad when she was living at his house. Prince and his Dad DID NOT read or play classical music. Prince stated this in early interviews as well.

*

I also don't think Prince's Dad was playing Bill Evans' music at the strip clubs in MN. So, it's very possible that Prince had not really spent time listening to Evans in his younger days.

I suppose in your world neither Prince nor his father would have once listened to Miles Davis' 'Kind of Blue' (1959) - the best selling jazz album OF ALL TIME - or if they had, they would have never once looked at the album sleeve to read the main musicians' names...

CherryMoon57 said:

violetcrush said:

Exactly. Prince's Father was a struggling Jazz player doing the Burlessque circuit in MN during the 50's and 60's. He had a full time day job, and played with his band at night. He had talent, but was not on the level of Mr. Coleman and Mr. Melvoin. They played with all of the top recording artist of the 60's and 70's.

*

Wendy and Lisa have talked about this many times. They would have musicians hanging out at their homes and jamming with their parents. Wendy first played Bass with Leon Russell at her house when she was 8 years old. Lisa stated that Rita Coolidge would babysit her when she was little.

*

So, all of the Coleman/Melvoin kids were completely immersed in the big-time music scene from very young ages.

Do you realise how wrong all of this sounds on so many levels? What do you think of artists such as Bill Withers then? He came from a non-musical background, only started a musical career later in life prior to which he made toilets for aircrafts... Does that make him musically irrelevant?

And so what if Prince's early entourage was not as musically accomplished as Wendy's and Lisa's? What really matters is that they all met up at one point and made some great music together. Why the need to boast about who was more entitled to recognition than another based on the amount of celebrities who were around who and when...

No, of course Prince's Father was not "musically irrelevant" at all. And yes, some struggling musicians became popular later in their lives.

*

This entire discussion came about due to some posters denying that Wendy and Lisa would have brought any musical inspiration to Prince and/or would have introduced certain music to him. The point of discussing their history and family backround was to demonstrate that they had years of musical influence from their Fathers and also prominent musicians prior to meeting Prince. So, it is absolutely possible that both Wendy and Lisa would have brought new things to the table.

rednblue said:

violetcrush said:

*

Lisa has stated that she is/was classically trained on piano from a young age, and that she would play some of the pieces she knew for Prince and his Dad. She said she told them that if you can read and play classical music then you can play anything.

*

There is also a huge difference between "knowing of" Bill Evans being a Jazz pianist, and actually knowing his specific music and/or how to play it. Big difference.

*

I just think it's funny how some of the "Prince was such a genius and he knew everything" fans seem to think he had all the time in the world to learn and study every musician's music back then, especially when he and many others have stated their access to diverse music was extrememly limited. Prince has also stated that his Father was NOT open to sharing his music with him when he was younger. He refused to let him touch his piano. So, Prince was on his own with learning music back then. Their bond began when he proved that he could be successful.

[Edited 5/15/20 10:50am]

m Also, according to P’s autobiography, stuff around him wanting to see the Woodstock movie was a bonding step.

Yes, Prince was around 12 yrs old at the time of seeing the Woodstock movie with his Dad. He stated that was the point where his Dad knew how serious he was about music and becoming a musician. However, that is also the same period when his Dad kicked him out of his apartment, and he moved in with Andre. Prince also stated - during the 1985 RS interview - that he did not speak to his Dad or Sister for a couple of years. It wsa during the Controversy/Dirty Mind period.

*

Seems that once Prince catapulted to fame with Purple Rain he was able to reconcile with his Dad, and they became closer. He spoke about it in that RS interview. One of his most revealing, I think.

CherryMoon57 said:

violetcrush said:

Exactly. Prince's Father was a struggling Jazz player doing the Burlessque circuit in MN during the 50's and 60's. He had a full time day job, and played with his band at night. He had talent, but was not on the level of Mr. Coleman and Mr. Melvoin. They played with all of the top recording artist of the 60's and 70's.

*

Wendy and Lisa have talked about this many times. They would have musicians hanging out at their homes and jamming with their parents. Wendy first played Bass with Leon Russell at her house when she was 8 years old. Lisa stated that Rita Coolidge would babysit her when she was little.

*

So, all of the Coleman/Melvoin kids were completely immersed in the big-time music scene from very young ages.

Do you realise how wrong all of this sounds on so many levels? What do you think of artists such as Bill Withers then? He came from a non-musical background, only started a musical career later in life prior to which he made toilets for aircrafts... Does that make him musically irrelevant?

And so what if Prince's early entourage was not as musically accomplished as Wendy's and Lisa's? What really matters is that they all met up at one point and made some great music together. Why the need to boast about who was more entitled to recognition than another based on the amount of celebrities who were around who and when...

poppys said:

violetcrush said:

Here you go poppys - a link to the UTCM premiere party interview with Prince's Father, which starts at 8:06....

*

John L Nelson: "I was called Prince, because I was a piano player for strippers down on Hennopin Avenue in Minneapolis, having a lot of fun."

*

Right. John Nelson's entire life and history in a spoken blurb IS THE definitive. Pathetic. I'm out with the psycho/needy, as always.

Yeah, um, no. Also never stated his response was the definitive of his career. However, it was actually how he made money as a musician. It also made my point as related to my prior post.

*

Mr. Nelson's life and musical path was completely different than Prince's. He had teenage/young adult kids by the time Prince was born, and then two more babies to support at middle age. He HAD to work a full time job to pay the bills. He could not pursue a full time music career. Prince started pursuing his dream by highschool, and had no wife and kids to support. He could devote 24/7 to music, and he did.

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

ChocolateBox3121 said:

I can't WAIT to hear Prince's(r.i.p.) 12" of "Mountains" included in the Parade Deluxe coming up.

He put his foot in that one.

Huh? Is there a new version of that 12 inch coming out? That's one of my favourite Prince songs of all time.

Actually, that 12 inch version has been around, and it was mainly Wendy and Lisa on that mix.

databank said:

jaawwnn said:

I appreciate this post, but at the same time you can't exactly trust this stuff anymore than the stories unless you actually want to believe that Jesse Johnson's credit on Jungle Love being retroactively removed from the database is some weird space time continuum change where Prince went back in time and showed him the beat or something?

Copyrights are not an absolute of course. There are cases where we now know that Prince either failed to register someone as a co-authors OR gave away royalties by registering someone who didn't write a song. In the case of Mountains, SISIA and PF, it is therefore POSSIBLE that Prince, out of generosity, could have decided to give money to W&L. I believe that for at least PW, we have third parties who confirmed that it was based on a W&L composition. I'm honestly not sure if that's the case with M and SISIA, though since the whole band plays on Mountains I guess there were witnesses to the process. In any case, I'm pretty sure Duane's next book will contains more testimonies about all 3 songs' genesis.

.

This being said, admitting that, and only IF, no one confirmed W&L's contributions yet, while it is POSSIBLE that P gave away royalties on Mountains and SISIA, we have to use Occam's razor here. In the absence of any further information challenging a song's registration, it is reasonable to assume the registration is correct. There is simply no valid reason, no valid argument not to. Or then anyone could go on the Org and claim that Prince in fact composed the whole Taje Sevelle album, but that on the other hand Taja Sevelle composed half the Sign "O" The Times album, just because it sounds right to them. Or anyone could claim that Michael B. Nelson didn't write the horns part on Billy Jack Bitch simply because The Hornheads never had a hit record. This is silly. This is not how knowledge is produced. This is just a major waste of everyone's time.

Excellent points here databank, as usual. I do hope Duane's new book covers the details of these songs, so there will be no more need to debate. Wendy and Lisa stated that Susan Rogers was with them when they recorded the initial music for Mountains. So, I'm sure she will be a resource for Duane on that song.

*

We also have Prince's own statements back in 1985 - both in the RS interview and the MTV interview - where he discusses how W & L help him in the studio, and Prince throwing his Dad a tape of W & L's new music for him to hear. Additionally, we have his words at the first P&M show where he stated he would "let them go into the studio and see what they could come up with". So, plenty of information which supports their contributions during that time.

violetcrush said:

poppys said:

Right. John Nelson's entire life and history in a spoken blurb IS THE definitive. Pathetic. I'm out with the psycho/needy, as always.

Yeah, um, no. Also never stated his response was the definitive of his career. However, it was actually how he made money as a musician. It also made my point as related to my prior post.

*

John Nelson made money as a musician PLAYING MUSIC. He made other money in other jobs. He was a professional musician regardless of what else he did. The fact that he had other jobs has nothing to do with his skill or talent in music and never will. Your take on his strip club comment to a reporter is just ridiculous, and ignorant of those times. You don't know any actual artists or musicians even now, do you?

violetcrush said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Do you realise how wrong all of this sounds on so many levels? What do you think of artists such as Bill Withers then? He came from a non-musical background, only started a musical career later in life prior to which he made toilets for aircrafts... Does that make him musically irrelevant?

And so what if Prince's early entourage was not as musically accomplished as Wendy's and Lisa's? What really matters is that they all met up at one point and made some great music together. Why the need to boast about who was more entitled to recognition than another based on the amount of celebrities who were around who and when...

No, of course Prince's Father was not "musically irrelevant" at all. And yes, some struggling musicians became popular later in their lives.

*

This entire discussion came about due to some posters denying that Wendy and Lisa would have brought any musical inspiration to Prince and/or would have introduced certain music to him. The point of discussing their history and family backround was to demonstrate that they had years of musical influence from their Fathers and also prominent musicians prior to meeting Prince. So, it is absolutely possible that both Wendy and Lisa would have brought new things to the table.

I never once doubted it. But one's background or prior training is not all when it comes to creativity. Which goes back to the continuous debate: is talent natural or learned?

violetcrush said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Do you realise how wrong all of this sounds on so many levels? What do you think of artists such as Bill Withers then? He came from a non-musical background, only started a musical career later in life prior to which he made toilets for aircrafts... Does that make him musically irrelevant?

And so what if Prince's early entourage was not as musically accomplished as Wendy's and Lisa's? What really matters is that they all met up at one point and made some great music together. Why the need to boast about who was more entitled to recognition than another based on the amount of celebrities who were around who and when...

No, of course Prince's Father was not "musically irrelevant" at all. And yes, some struggling musicians became popular later in their lives.

*

This entire discussion came about due to some posters denying that Wendy and Lisa would have brought any musical inspiration to Prince and/or would have introduced certain music to him. The point of discussing their history and family backround was to demonstrate that they had years of musical influence from their Fathers and also prominent musicians prior to meeting Prince. So, it is absolutely possible that both Wendy and Lisa would have brought new things to the table.

I never once doubted it. But one's background or prior training is not all when it comes to creativity. Which goes back to the continuous debate: is talent natural or learned?

poppys said:

rednblue said:

Vannormal said:

-

Not just a 100 % agree,

but a 10.000 % !

-

Being a good musician is much more than a technicaly robotic perfection without 'glam' or 'it' (most of his later later musicians), although they were damn good ones, if not, Prince wouln't have picked them.

They all had a 'roll' in his then idea of a band or sound or performance.

-

But there's something else, charisma; being there when IT ALL happened, the stardom, that imence international take-off, etc.. It really makes you fly on clouds, and pushes your abilities, creativitiy and skills. And not to forget; They We're Young !!!

And Invincable !

And were the best of friends full of fire, everything a band can rely on and builds upon.

And then it goes in unlimited speed skyrocket high... reason why it all gets burned so quickly (1986).

But it needs to happen. Thàt was Prince's drive, for all of them.

The nearly all, W&L included developed something that their ambition could flow on for a very very long time. And most of them used it well.

And, we witnessed it all when we were young.

-

I will never understand why people want to bitch anyone in particularly.

The only real liar you may need to bitch is a spoiled incompetent child some of you voted for.

(Now i'm bitchin')

-

Vannormal, I really enjoy your posts, and I'm not a musician, so excuse the unsophisticated nature of this question.

What about, for one example, the great funk of later years? Isn't a "funk feel," choices made while playing within "rules" or a framework, what makes for that sort of greatness?

-

The funk of the later years was great !

But different.

Why different from 'back-then'...

-

Sure. 'Strict' rules and 'full' commitment do form a basis to play 'tight' funk.

And yes, the 'funk feel' is different.

I have several opinions on that.

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First, Prince was fast, wanted his band mates to be fast too.

He absolutely didn't wanted to loose time. Ánd, veryimportant, he was of a perfectionist up to a certain level, cause he wanted to move as fast as possible, faster than the speed of light.

If they let him release three albums a year, he would've done it, no doubt.

he had guts and balls, looks and dare, and a world to conquer - in one straight line !

"To the top, Johnny".

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He was young and full of fire, and was building it up all from whatever that came accross.

Bandmates or girlfriends or associates or collaborators or even technicians, whatever they ate and slept and drank and farted or puked, he took it all in. Prince the sponge, able to blend it like no one can.

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Once he was a star, he arrived on a plateau that gave him the oportunity (not freedom) to get in the automatic pilot gear. And he did.

The nineties and furtheron, certainly the 00's, he was on a well greased and fine tuned automatic pilot (imho). The clean cuts, the deginer attitude, paler skin (i will be hunted down for htis ), pearl godl and diamonds, cars, houses, residents and privat endless posibilities.

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I personally think it would've been better for him if he stopped touring for a couple of years.

To get rid of that easy greasy repetition of live performances.

Prince was on such a high stake that, if he just came up on stage, burped or pushed one note, turned around, the crowd would've gone nuts anyways.

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At the same time, he create a brand of his own, and had a name to live up to.

Listen to any (most) pré-1989 concerts and you feel there is basically not that 'strict' in his funk, not much 'full' either and certainly less 'tight' in his funky playing which he mastered without knowing in his early years.

He was on a 'soul driven becoming-a-star-cloud'. "He got soul."

He had that woundrous musicality like improvising, and had the wild hunger for passion dripping from him in waterfalls.

Bandmates, colaborators, asoociates and technicians, etc were in awe, but stood somehow on the same level - like friendship, their own development, their ignored or forgiven flaws, just like Prince.

But his ambition made him to what he was.

They mostly (his bandmates) had less or different ambitions, and became what they are now.

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The warmth that comes from W&L's music remained. You don't' have to like their music to see what i mean.

Prince had the warmth too (in all eras), but he also did completely other stuff.

And somehow I can't seem to explain to you what happepend in between... to explain you 'wh' his funk changed. (maybe i already did)... whatever.

It's like comparing James brown 'the greatest soul-soul' with his 'moustache years - know as the lesser era by some. Same thing.

Or the Michael Jackson Quincy years, and the years after that, same thing.

Or the band Chic when Bernard Edwards was still around, and afterwards... same thing (well for each and one of those I mention here slightly different of course. They are just examples. Skip it).

Even Madonna, and I'm not talking about her funk, but the 'drive' when being younger, and the need to grow and all that.

Let's not forget the huge portion of luck that comes with it, and the offered oportunities.

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Let's say that all his bandmates from the early nineties on, were first of all very technically skilled musicians, and could be 'fast' the way Prince wanted them to be. Fast and ready.

Very fast and very very ready.

But the 'master' was a star, and they were just picked by him to be there and support his demands.

Sure there was laughter and friendship and (some) space (somtimes) to loosen up, but mostly the were happy to be in the band, and played it 'tight', 'full' and 'strict'.

Funk where the air was drawn from, vacuum. No 'air', so less warmth, less life, less edgy and on-the-spot. And yes, i know, ther were moments and gigs full of sparks, electricity even.

But it was 'a job' to be done.

I prefer Matt Blistan and Eric Leeds or Eddie M, over the Horn Heads, althought the hornheads are funky as hell, but just a little too tight for me. Listen to the horns on any Stevie Wonder records, and you'll get what i mean. Technically skilled doens't make you necessarily 'funky' (with my meaning of funk in the word).

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About that 'great funk' or 'funk feel'... It's also something you rather feel than calculate or try to catch in words.

It's the sort of 'magic' where you are part of as well.

I can imagine a young guy seeing Prince for the first time in his early 20s during a concert in let's say 2005 or so, that makes him experience an inner explosion of greatness. Something he never experienced before. The funk he was looking for. Thé Funk! Like an OMG, shitting your pants of hapiness of discovery, just like we had in the 80's when Prince went skyrocket.

So it's all about experiencing at the right moment.

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Being older makes you able to compare, for the good, for the bad.

I don't have truths in Prince's funk, but i tell you what i feel, and i'm able to compare.

A humble opinion in a privileged 'funky' situation.

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This thread mirrors politics. Several comments supply references to Wendy and other people who were around at the time (including Prince) that acknowledge that Wendy and Lisa were an influence on Prince and the Revolution. This triggers extreme attacks on their character that are based on emotionally fueled opinions with no references to back it up. This leads to the first camp to also get defensive and at times exaggerate what the contributions are which then triggers more reactionary stuff from the other side. There is no need to get defensive about Wendy and Lisa having a positive influence on Prince. This doesn't make him less of genuis. A genuis is open to everything, and takes all the influenctial elements and add their own spice and can come up with something completely unique. I don't necessarily think that Wendy's contributions were necessarily due to her being so brilliant. My speculation, and I own it, is that Prince was more open to them and their influences because he may have been less competitive with female musicians than male musicians. He just seemed more comfortable with female musicians than men, but again I could be wrong. He certainly utilized female musicians more than any male superstar ever has, and that reflect something about this issue.

So this is where the thread is now, Prince's dad can beat up W&L's dads, no their dads could beat up Prince's dad! FFS people, get a grip!

NouveauDance said: