AvocadosMax said:

Prince HAD to go in a different direction after 87. It just had to have been done. Why would Prince rid on the idea of being "the next BEATLES"?? That's just dumb. And NOT Prince. Prince was always moving forward and staying young. If he continued on the Purple Rain or Parade or Dream Factory state for so long, it would have been hella stale. He knew that. He saw the big picture.

Well, no doubt there was important and great music to do that was very different from that on any of those albums.

But do you really see the run of albums that was Controversy-1999-Purple Rain-ATWIAD-Parade as a run of same-same-same-same-same? To me, those albums are all great, and also pretty different from one another.

Maybe I should have added Dirty Mind, as Lisa was in the (album) picture, and this is a thread about W + L input. Then there was later-released music to which the two had input. Anyway, add or subtract albums as you see fit.

[Edited 5/14/20 22:01pm]

PennyPurple said:

violetcrush said:

No, Wendy DID NOT state that she introduced Prince to Jazz music. Lisa actually stated that during her interview with Questlove, and Susannah mentioned it duirng her first interview with Toure.

*

And Prince, duirng his first P&M show at PP, talked about how Lisa told him her favorite musician was Bill Evans, and then he paused and said, "I know, right?? to the audience - as in, I didn't know who he was either.

*

So, I have no doubt both Wendy and Lisa introduced Prince to music that he hadn't listened to before. Their Fathers had been in the business for 20-30 years prior to them meeting Prince. Suannah recently posted a pic of her and Wendy in a London recording studio at age 13 singing on their first backround vocal. So, yeah, they'd been around the musical block.

P's father had been in the business for years also....

Such bad faith. John L. was nowhere near The Wrecking Crew
in terms of experience "in the business".

[Edited 5/14/20 21:07pm]

AvocadosMax said:

I think Prince brought the best out of people. Wendy & Lisa taught Prince some things and Prince taught them a whole lot as well. When they came together, it made for some of the most awesome music ever.

Wendy & Lisa on their own are ok. They still are talented but they lack the spark that they showed they could have with Prince.

I wonder, is anyone doubting an exchange with plenty to offer (valuable knowledge, experience, etc.) coming from all involved?

PennyPurple said:

P's father had been in the business for years also....

Sure, but different. Growing up with Quincy Jones as a family friend isn't the same as moving into your friends house while your pops is out grinding in small jazz clubs. They don't cancel one another out. It was probably attractive to Prince.

databank said:

If nothing else, I find it quite depressing that after all these years, a relatively insignificant story shared by an associate about the genesis of a song would spark a 5 pages debate about said associate. Everybody's got on opinion about everything, right? Everybody's an expert, right? Everybody was there in P's kitchen to witness the events, right? I don't even know which side of the debate I should be on. I guess that's because I don't even understand why there's a debate in the first place. Would Prince have been Prince without W&L? Obviously. Are W&L respectable musicians regardless of their time with P? Obviously as well. W&L were there, did what they did; P was there, did what he did; who did what, particularly at that time, is OVERdocumented; and more importantly we all enjoyed the results of their collaborative efforts. What is there to argue about exactly? I don't know.

-

Not just a 100 % agree,

but a 10.000 % !

-

Being a good musician is much more than a technicaly robotic perfection without 'glam' or 'it' (most of his later later musicians), although they were damn good ones, if not, Prince wouln't have picked them.

They all had a 'roll' in his then idea of a band or sound or performance.

-

But there's something else, charisma; being there when IT ALL happened, the stardom, that imence international take-off, etc.. It really makes you fly on clouds, and pushes your abilities, creativitiy and skills. And not to forget; They We're Young !!!

And Invincable !

And were the best of friends full of fire, everything a band can rely on and builds upon.

And then it goes in unlimited speed skyrocket high... reason why it all gets burned so quickly (1986).

But it needs to happen. Thàt was Prince's drive, for all of them.

The nearly all, W&L included developed something that their ambition could flow on for a very very long time. And most of them used it well.

And, we witnessed it all when we were young.

-

I will never understand why people want to bitch anyone in particularly.

The only real liar you may need to bitch is a spoiled incompetent child some of you voted for.

(Now i'm bitchin')

-

RJOrion said:

mbdtyler said:

Other users made a solid argument for Wendy and Lisa's contributions to The Revolution and their talents as standalone artists, and you were completely dismissive every step of the way. Now you want to whine about people not being respectful?

more silliness...because i refuse to change my opinion because of what others say, thats somehow construed as "whining"...what a joke... youre proving my entire point...some of you just cant accept the fact that people dont agree with you...thats you and their problem, not mine...in fact all of you are whining for 6 pages because i dont like W&L's music...that continues to humor me, as if you cant tell by now...ive tried to explain clearly and eloquently how and why i feel the way i do, but some of you are so stuck in your feelings that you wont let it go...if im "whining" so much and it hurts you so much, why do you keep addressing me?...are you trying to change my mind? or are you just displayimg how much my comments hurt your feelings?...i suspect the latter...

-

-

-

[Edited 5/16/20 0:31am]

lavendardrummachine said:

It's not technical chops that leads to dropping the bass from When Doves Cry, it's intuition.

Or it's Jill Jones telling him to drop it.

JorisE73 said:

lavendardrummachine said:

It's not technical chops that leads to dropping the bass from When Doves Cry, it's intuition.

Or it's Jill Jones telling him to drop it.

She just said "why don't you do it, ecouraging him when he played it for her and said he wished he could do it. He's quoted as saying that's how it happened.

violetcrush said:

PennyPurple said:

Yes she did claim that.

No, Wendy DID NOT state that she introduced Prince to Jazz music. Lisa actually stated that during her interview with Questlove, and Susannah mentioned it duirng her first interview with Toure.

*

And Prince, duirng his first P&M show at PP, talked about how Lisa told him her favorite musician was Bill Evans, and then he paused and said, "I know, right?? to the audience - as in, I didn't know who he was either.

*

So, I have no doubt both Wendy and Lisa introduced Prince to music that he hadn't listened to before. Their Fathers had been in the business for 20-30 years prior to them meeting Prince. Suannah recently posted a pic of her and Wendy in a London recording studio at age 13 singing on their first backround vocal. So, yeah, they'd been around the musical block.

Doesn't anyone else find the idea that 'Prince (the son of a jazz pianist) had no idea who Bill Evans was' (THE renowned Bill Evans who had been part of the Miles Davis sextet / recorded Kind of Blue and immortalised THAT PIANO INTRO on So What/ is pretty much a household name in the jazz realms and probably beyond), somewhat hard to believe?

See, my take on what you have reported above is that he was impressed by her musical influences, not that he didn't know who Bill Evans was.

[Edited 5/15/20 2:46am]

Vannormal said:

RJOrion said:

mbdtyler said: more silliness...because i refuse to change my opinion because of what others say, thats somehow construed as "whining"...what a joke... youre proving my entire point...some of you just cant accept the fact that people dont agree with you...thats you and their problem, not mine...in fact all of you are whining for 6 pages because i dont like W&L's music...that continues to humor me, as if you cant tell by now...ive tried to explain clearly and eloquently how and why i feel the way i do, but some of you are so stuck in your feelings that you wont let it go...if im "whining" so much and it hurts you so much, why do you keep addressing me?...are you trying to change my mind? or are you just displayimg how much my comments hurt your feelings?...i suspect the latter...

-

Concerning these kind of debates and strong opinions,

some people are just not capable of being flexible, or open to suggestions,

or be able (to dare) to change their minds.

-

Steady opinions are worthless unless one is willing to learn something

from others and their point of views. .. and not to forget; thinking.

Think before you act or respond.

Be able to let it reflect on your own convincing ideas without being defencive.

Having to 'defence' your point(s) of view is a clear way of unyielding.

-

Another thing, the oposite of love is not hate (and vice versa) but indifference.

Indifference is something that keeps you from 'defending' opinions all the time when there is no need to.

You have the choice to stay away of some debates too.

It can be wise even.

-

Or if you really heed the feel of shitting on someone, go ahead.

Karma is a thing, but not always (sadly enough).

Peace to all and all debates as well, always.

-

[Edited 5/16/20 5:03am]

databank said:

Just to set the record straight, W&L's co-writing contributions on Mountains, Sometimes It's Snows In April and Power Fantastic may not have been credited on the albums, but they were copyrighted by Prince when he registered the songs at ASCAP (as can be verified by searching the Universal Publishing database https://www.umusicpub.com...ary/search). So those clowns who are now trying to take advantage of other fans' lack of factual knowledge to rewrite history and claim that W&L are making up shit and claiming credits where credit is not due are just wasting everyone's time by pretending there is cause for debate where there is none. This is really annoying because it doesn't take 3 minutes to do the proper research on a free, public database!! In certain cases it's hard to verify claims by various associates because there are contradicting versions, or the person making the co-writing claim isn't backed up by other associates or material evidence, but here the case was closed before it was even opened!

NOW there is the case of SISIA being mentioned as existing as early as 1977, and this was known before P's memoir was published since Dez auctioned a cassette some years back that contained this early version. By Dez' own words it was an unfinished, “virtually unrecognizable version” of the song (https://consequenceofsoun...r-auction/). Sadly, Princevault did not add this information to the song's entry, so admitedly this information was a little harder to find if one didn't already know about it, but it still shows the importance of doing one's homework before calling people liars. Nevertheless, whomever ended-up with this cassette unfortunately chose not to leak its content, but we already have enough information to determine that it was a very different song from the 1985 version, which easily explains how W&L could contribute and get credit on that final version.

.

I apologize for going all Bart and calling people clowns, but in the end I end-up wasting my time writing this after TWO PAGES of a completely pointless debate, started by people who think they've just invented the wheel but don't have a clue what they're talking about, while the information was there for all to see without spending too much time researching it. This is annoying and I hope these fellow fans will learn to do some research before throwing accusations and trying to put nonsense in other people's heads.

.

Peace

I appreciate this post, but at the same time you can't exactly trust this stuff anymore than the stories unless you actually want to believe that Jesse Johnson's credit on Jungle Love being retroactively removed from the database is some weird space time continuum change where Prince went back in time and showed him the beat or something?


Anyway, here I am listening to Wendy & Lisa's albums and enjoying them despite them not having any hits. Kinda like how I enjoy the myriad of commercial failures Prince released.

Ultimately some people value showy technical ability more than anything else, good for them, why not. Some of my favourite musical artists are bad musicians but i'd still prefer to listen to them over some Juilliard graduate playing 40 notes a second in three simultaneous time signatures. I know I enjoyed the Revolution show I saw wayyy more than the NPG show I saw but that's just me. I don't regret going to either.

CherryMoon57 said:

violetcrush said:

No, Wendy DID NOT state that she introduced Prince to Jazz music. Lisa actually stated that during her interview with Questlove, and Susannah mentioned it duirng her first interview with Toure.

*

And Prince, duirng his first P&M show at PP, talked about how Lisa told him her favorite musician was Bill Evans, and then he paused and said, "I know, right?? to the audience - as in, I didn't know who he was either.

*

So, I have no doubt both Wendy and Lisa introduced Prince to music that he hadn't listened to before. Their Fathers had been in the business for 20-30 years prior to them meeting Prince. Suannah recently posted a pic of her and Wendy in a London recording studio at age 13 singing on their first backround vocal. So, yeah, they'd been around the musical block.

Doesn't anyone else find the idea that 'Prince (the son of a jazz pianist) had no idea who Bill Evans was' (THE renowned Bill Evans who had been part of the Miles Davis sextet / recorded Kind of Blue and immortalised THAT PIANO INTRO on So What/ is pretty much a household name in the jazz realms and probably beyond), somewhat hard to believe?

See, my take on what you have reported above is that he was impressed by her musical influences, not that he didn't know who Bill Evans was.

I know what you mean. But I find it very strange when people get indignant about the notion of any one of them introducing another to something about jazz or pop or classical or another broad category of music. I mean, these categories of music are huge!

I'd find it strange when it comes to the idea that Prince, or any artist at any time in the purple camp, couldn't introduce another purple artist to something within these broad categories.

At the same time, though other sorts of introductions could still be true, I can totally imagine wondering about the idea of an introduction to certain particulars.

Violetcrush (above) also mentioned this P and M concert. Does anyone have a longer quote to get Prince's own words for what is paraphrased here?

"Paying tribute to his past collaborators Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman, he credited Lisa with introducing him to the complex chording of jazzman Bill Evans then played the harpsichord part she wrote for 'Raspberry Beret.' 'That’s the whole song, right?'


https://www.rollingstone....ow-224995/]

[Edited 5/15/20 6:22am]

gandorb said:

JudasLChrist said:

No, she has not. Wendy has been very careful to explain what their contribution was. Too carefeul, imo. She shouldn't have to be so careful.

Good point. On probably a lesser note, my first association with seeing your name is film critic Judith Crist and only later some type of religious reference. She was inspirational !

From the land where all the critics love you.

[Edited 5/15/20 9:00am]

Vannormal said:

databank said:

If nothing else, I find it quite depressing that after all these years, a relatively insignificant story shared by an associate about the genesis of a song would spark a 5 pages debate about said associate. Everybody's got on opinion about everything, right? Everybody's an expert, right? Everybody was there in P's kitchen to witness the events, right? I don't even know which side of the debate I should be on. I guess that's because I don't even understand why there's a debate in the first place. Would Prince have been Prince without W&L? Obviously. Are W&L respectable musicians regardless of their time with P? Obviously as well. W&L were there, did what they did; P was there, did what he did; who did what, particularly at that time, is OVERdocumented; and more importantly we all enjoyed the results of their collaborative efforts. What is there to argue about exactly? I don't know.

-

Not just a 100 % agree,

but a 10.000 % !

-

Being a good musician is much more than a technicaly robotic perfection without 'glam' or 'it' (most of his later later musicians), although they were damn good ones, if not, Prince wouln't have picked them.

They all had a 'roll' in his then idea of a band or sound or performance.

-

But there's something else, charisma; being there when IT ALL happened, the stardom, that imence international take-off, etc.. It really makes you fly on clouds, and pushes your abilities, creativitiy and skills. And not to forget; They We're Young !!!

And Invincable !

And were the best of friends full of fire, everything a band can rely on and builds upon.

And then it goes in unlimited speed skyrocket high... reason why it all gets burned so quickly (1986).

But it needs to happen. Thàt was Prince's drive, for all of them.

The nearly all, W&L included developed something that their ambition could flow on for a very very long time. And most of them used it well.

And, we witnessed it all when we were young.

-

I will never understand why people want to bitch anyone in particularly.

The only real liar you may need to bitch is a spoiled incompetent child some of you voted for.

(Now i'm bitchin')

-

Vannormal, I really enjoy your posts, and I'm not a musician, so excuse the unsophisticated nature of this question.

What about, for one example, the great funk of later years? Isn't a "funk feel," choices made while playing within "rules" or a framework, what makes for that sort of greatness?

rednblue said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Doesn't anyone else find the idea that 'Prince (the son of a jazz pianist) had no idea who Bill Evans was' (THE renowned Bill Evans who had been part of the Miles Davis sextet / recorded Kind of Blue and immortalised THAT PIANO INTRO on So What/ is pretty much a household name in the jazz realms and probably beyond), somewhat hard to believe?

See, my take on what you have reported above is that he was impressed by her musical influences, not that he didn't know who Bill Evans was.

I know what you mean. But I find it very strange when people get indignant about the notion of any one of them introducing another to something about jazz or pop or classical or another broad category of music. I mean, these categories of music are huge!

I'd find it strange when it comes to the idea that Prince, or any artist at any time in the purple camp, couldn't introduce another purple artist to something within these broad categories.

At the same time, though other sorts of introductions could still be true, I can totally imagine wondering about the idea of an introduction to certain particulars.

Violetcrush (above) also mentioned this P and M concert. Does anyone have a longer quote to get Prince's own words for what is paraphrased here?

"Paying tribute to his past collaborators Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman, he credited Lisa with introducing him to the complex chording of jazzman Bill Evans then played the harpsichord part she wrote for 'Raspberry Beret.' 'That’s the whole song, right?'


https://www.rollingstone....ow-224995/]

[Edited 5/15/20 6:22am]

There is a difference between the story of Lisa showing Prince a new chord technique and then a fan misleading other fans by insinuating Prince didn't know who Bill Evans was until he met Lisa (as I said above, Bill Evans had been a big jazz name for long and Prince wasn't born in the 80s!). There lies the subtle difference which may lead to some fans' indignation. So to sum up, we are both in agreement with the above and the idea that the music Prince created during the Revolution era was of a collaborative nature, but one must be careful with other unverified damaging assumptions towards either Prince or any other band members.

jaawwnn said:

databank said:

Just to set the record straight, W&L's co-writing contributions on Mountains, Sometimes It's Snows In April and Power Fantastic may not have been credited on the albums, but they were copyrighted by Prince when he registered the songs at ASCAP (as can be verified by searching the Universal Publishing database https://www.umusicpub.com...ary/search). So those clowns who are now trying to take advantage of other fans' lack of factual knowledge to rewrite history and claim that W&L are making up shit and claiming credits where credit is not due are just wasting everyone's time by pretending there is cause for debate where there is none. This is really annoying because it doesn't take 3 minutes to do the proper research on a free, public database!! In certain cases it's hard to verify claims by various associates because there are contradicting versions, or the person making the co-writing claim isn't backed up by other associates or material evidence, but here the case was closed before it was even opened!

NOW there is the case of SISIA being mentioned as existing as early as 1977, and this was known before P's memoir was published since Dez auctioned a cassette some years back that contained this early version. By Dez' own words it was an unfinished, “virtually unrecognizable version” of the song (https://consequenceofsoun...r-auction/). Sadly, Princevault did not add this information to the song's entry, so admitedly this information was a little harder to find if one didn't already know about it, but it still shows the importance of doing one's homework before calling people liars. Nevertheless, whomever ended-up with this cassette unfortunately chose not to leak its content, but we already have enough information to determine that it was a very different song from the 1985 version, which easily explains how W&L could contribute and get credit on that final version.

.

I apologize for going all Bart and calling people clowns, but in the end I end-up wasting my time writing this after TWO PAGES of a completely pointless debate, started by people who think they've just invented the wheel but don't have a clue what they're talking about, while the information was there for all to see without spending too much time researching it. This is annoying and I hope these fellow fans will learn to do some research before throwing accusations and trying to put nonsense in other people's heads.

.

Peace

I appreciate this post, but at the same time you can't exactly trust this stuff anymore than the stories unless you actually want to believe that Jesse Johnson's credit on Jungle Love being retroactively removed from the database is some weird space time continuum change where Prince went back in time and showed him the beat or something?


Anyway, here I am listening to Wendy & Lisa's albums and enjoying them despite them not having any hits. Kinda like how I enjoy the myriad of commercial failures Prince released.

Ultimately some people value showy technical ability more than anything else, good for them, why not. Some of my favourite musical artists are bad musicians but i'd still prefer to listen to them over some Juilliard graduate playing 40 notes a second in three simultaneous time signatures. I know I enjoyed the Revolution show I saw wayyy more than the NPG show I saw but that's just me. I don't regret going to either.

Agree that limits to knowledge of people who weren't present at the origins is the bottom line. Not at all to say that accounts and other infomation isn't worth seeking out and discussing. To the contrary. : )

But in the end, knowledge "from the outside" has some limits. Over on the "Taking Credit For Prince's Art After He Passed" thread, TrivialPursuit observed that, "It's not exactly a secret that Prince would hear something, take it, and make a song from it often not crediting the person who he got it from."

In response, I tried to sum up the origins issue: "This has been described by multiple musicians from multiple eras. Same for Prince sometimes crediting others with his own ideas and writing.

As fans, we don't have first-hand knowledge of the truth of who contributed what.

That said, it's clear that Prince was a musical genius who worked with many extremely talented artists."

[Edited 5/15/20 8:57am]

CherryMoon57 said:

rednblue said:

I know what you mean. But I find it very strange when people get indignant about the notion of any one of them introducing another to something about jazz or pop or classical or another broad category of music. I mean, these categories of music are huge!

I'd find it strange when it comes to the idea that Prince, or any artist at any time in the purple camp, couldn't introduce another purple artist to something within these broad categories.

At the same time, though other sorts of introductions could still be true, I can totally imagine wondering about the idea of an introduction to certain particulars.

Violetcrush (above) also mentioned this P and M concert. Does anyone have a longer quote to get Prince's own words for what is paraphrased here?

"Paying tribute to his past collaborators Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman, he credited Lisa with introducing him to the complex chording of jazzman Bill Evans then played the harpsichord part she wrote for 'Raspberry Beret.' 'That’s the whole song, right?'


https://www.rollingstone....ow-224995/]

[Edited 5/15/20 6:22am]

There is a difference between the story of Lisa showing Prince a new chord technique and then a fan misleading other fans by insinuating Prince didn't know who Bill Evans was until he met Lisa (as I said above, Bill Evans had been a big jazz name for long and Prince wasn't born in the 80s!). There lies the subtle difference which may lead to some fans' indignation. So to sum up, we are both in agreement with the above and the idea that the music Prince created during the Revolution era was of a collaborative nature, but one must be careful with other unverified damaging assumptions towards either Prince or any other band members.

EXACTLY! Wholeheartedly agree! And why, though descriptive quotes aren't the ultimate truth of what happened, it's a real problem to not accurately paraphrase what someone said/claim someone said something that they didn't say/etc.

There's obviously also a limit to quotes in print, as people can be misquoted.

There's a further difficulty that even with accurate quotes, people may or may not correctly assign meaning to those quotes, as in what "was meant," as in what the speaker intended to convey.

But all this is why I was interested to try to at least start with all the actual words Prince spoke in that concert about that subject.

[Edited 5/15/20 7:36am]

rednblue said:

Agree that limits to knowledge of people who weren't present at the origins is the bottom line. Not at all to say that accounts and other infomation isn't worth seeking out and discussing. To the contrary. : )

But in the end, knowledge "from the outside" has some limits. Over on the "Taking Credit For Prince's Art After He Passed" thread, TrivialPursuit observed that, "It's not exactly a secret that Prince would hear something, take it, and make a song from it often not crediting the person who he got it from."

In response, I tried to some up the origins issue: "This has been described by multiple musicians from multiple eras. Same for Prince sometimes crediting others with his own ideas and writing.

As fans, we don't have first-hand knowledge of the truth of who contributed what.

That said, it's clear that Prince was a musical genius who worked with many extremely talented artists."

Honestly, my take on it is we'll never know and it's not really worth worrying about who came up with this or that chord sequence. I don't think Mountains would exist as it is without Wendy & Lisa but I know for sure that it wouldn't exist as it is without Prince, you know?

The best stuff (for me anyway) are stories like Susannah's that led to Starfish & Coffee, which is best described as: a song by Prince inspired by a story he heard from a friend.

I'm grateful for Prince for introducing me to the music of Wendy & Lisa, that I probaby would not have come across if i wasn't for him. I love their music in a very different way to how I love Prince's, less obsessively but maybe a little more personally. It's a weird one.

bonatoc said:

PennyPurple said:

P's father had been in the business for years also....

Such bad faith. John L. was nowhere near The Wrecking Crew
in terms of experience "in the business".

Running your own band and playing gigs means you are in the business.

John was a jazz piano scholar in the original Louisiana (New Orleans) tradition. You cannot throw a rock in there w/o hitting a great musician who can read music - then or now.

Be great if there was some Prince Rogers Trio live shows on a tape somewhere, probably unlikely considering the timeframe but you never know.

jaawwnn said:

rednblue said:

Agree that limits to knowledge of people who weren't present at the origins is the bottom line. Not at all to say that accounts and other infomation isn't worth seeking out and discussing. To the contrary. : )

But in the end, knowledge "from the outside" has some limits. Over on the "Taking Credit For Prince's Art After He Passed" thread, TrivialPursuit observed that, "It's not exactly a secret that Prince would hear something, take it, and make a song from it often not crediting the person who he got it from."

In response, I tried to some up the origins issue: "This has been described by multiple musicians from multiple eras. Same for Prince sometimes crediting others with his own ideas and writing.

As fans, we don't have first-hand knowledge of the truth of who contributed what.

That said, it's clear that Prince was a musical genius who worked with many extremely talented artists."

Honestly, my take on it is we'll never know and it's not really worth worrying about who came up with this or that chord sequence. I don't think Mountains would exist as it is without Wendy & Lisa but I know for sure that it wouldn't exist as it is without Prince, you know?

The best stuff (for me anyway) are stories like Susannah's that led to Starfish & Coffee, which is best described as: a song by Prince inspired by a story he heard from a friend.

I'm grateful for Prince for introducing me to the music of Wendy & Lisa, that I probaby would not have come across if i wasn't for him. I love their music in a very different way to how I love Prince's, less obsessively but maybe a little more personally. It's a weird one.

I love, love, love Prince's way with words in Starfish and Coffee.

"She always stood at the back of the line, a smile beneath her nose."

IMO, some of the best things in life are "weird" or "unusual." But yes, they might not be the easiest things to wrap one's mind around. Hope you don't mind me taking a of couple wild guesses. Is it anything close to Prince's music is like a favorite library that you love, while W+L's music is like favorite books that you love?

Or maybe like W+L are on your musical street? As in Susan Rogers quoting Prince as saying, “Home base. It’s the street where you live.” After her quoting of Prince, she says, "Now, that said, he believed, and it seems to be true, that we can visit other neighborhoods and we can love other music that’s not our home base. Whether it’s salsa or jazz or it’s folk rock or just whatever. You can visit other streets, but there’s something you’re always going to love best about your home base."

https://www.redbullmusica...rs-lecture

Probably more the favourite library vs favourite book, that's a nice way of putting it


My musical street is probably something much more embarassing... god, cult-favourite indie rock also-rans . Wendy & Lisa's home street is Hollywood!

[Edited 5/15/20 9:08am]

While we're on the topic of Wendy & Lisa (and the merits of The Revolution), I want to give a shoutout to one of my favorite songs Prince ever recorded: Power Fantastic.

Wendy and Lisa wrote the basis for that song, and the band as a whole turned it into something unforgettable. Prince's vocals seem so vulnerable and ethereal all at once, while the push and pull of the band gives it a feel that I don't think any of Prince's other bands could have pulled off. It's perfectly imperfect in all of the right ways, and couldn't have happened without any one person present there. Especially Wendy and Lisa, for obvious reasons.

jaawwnn said:

Probably more the favourite library vs favourite book, that's a nice way of putting it


My musical street is probably something much more embarassing... god, cult-favourite indie rock also-rans . Wendy & Lisa's home street is Hollywood!

[Edited 5/15/20 9:08am]

Well, at least it's god's fleet of cult-favourite indie rock also-rans.

rednblue said:

jaawwnn said:

Probably more the favourite library vs favourite book, that's a nice way of putting it


My musical street is probably something much more embarassing... god, cult-favourite indie rock also-rans . Wendy & Lisa's home street is Hollywood!

[Edited 5/15/20 9:08am]

Well, at least it's god's fleet of cult-favourite indie rock also-rans.

Sorry, that's just the way it read to me on my first careless reading.

Getting too punchy-silly over here.

S'all good

Punctuation on the internet is forever a challenge!

rednblue said:

CherryMoon57 said:

There is a difference between the story of Lisa showing Prince a new chord technique and then a fan misleading other fans by insinuating Prince didn't know who Bill Evans was until he met Lisa (as I said above, Bill Evans had been a big jazz name for long and Prince wasn't born in the 80s!). There lies the subtle difference which may lead to some fans' indignation. So to sum up, we are both in agreement with the above and the idea that the music Prince created during the Revolution era was of a collaborative nature, but one must be careful with other unverified damaging assumptions towards either Prince or any other band members.

EXACTLY! Wholeheartedly agree! And why, though descriptive quotes aren't the ultimate truth of what happened, it's a real problem to not accurately paraphrase what someone said/claim someone said something that they didn't say/etc.

There's obviously also a limit to quotes in print, as people can be misquoted.

There's a further difficulty that even with accurate quotes, people may or may not correctly assign meaning to those quotes, as in what "was meant," as in what the speaker intended to convey.

But all this is why I was interested to try to at least start with all the actual words Prince spoke in that concert about that subject.

[Edited 5/15/20 7:36am]

Left out the most important point, which is to thank you for the great point about seeds of rightful indignation (on the part of any "side")!

bonatoc said:

PennyPurple said:

P's father had been in the business for years also....

Such bad faith. John L. was nowhere near The Wrecking Crew
in terms of experience "in the business".

[Edited 5/14/20 21:07pm]

Exactly. Prince's Father was a struggling Jazz player doing the Burlessque circuit in MN during the 50's and 60's. He had a full time day job, and played with his band at night. He had talent, but was not on the level of Mr. Coleman and Mr. Melvoin. They played with all of the top recording artist of the 60's and 70's.

*

Wendy and Lisa have talked about this many times. They would have musicians hanging out at their homes and jamming with their parents. Wendy first played Bass with Leon Russell at her house when she was 8 years old. Lisa stated that Rita Coolidge would babysit her when she was little.

*

So, all of the Coleman/Melvoin kids were completely immersed in the big-time music scene from very young ages.

rednblue said:

CherryMoon57 said:

There is a difference between the story of Lisa showing Prince a new chord technique and then a fan misleading other fans by insinuating Prince didn't know who Bill Evans was until he met Lisa (as I said above, Bill Evans had been a big jazz name for long and Prince wasn't born in the 80s!). There lies the subtle difference which may lead to some fans' indignation. So to sum up, we are both in agreement with the above and the idea that the music Prince created during the Revolution era was of a collaborative nature, but one must be careful with other unverified damaging assumptions towards either Prince or any other band members.

EXACTLY! Wholeheartedly agree! And why, though descriptive quotes aren't the ultimate truth of what happened, it's a real problem to not accurately paraphrase what someone said/claim someone said something that they didn't say/etc.

There's obviously also a limit to quotes in print, as people can be misquoted.

There's a further difficulty that even with accurate quotes, people may or may not correctly assign meaning to those quotes, as in what "was meant," as in what the speaker intended to convey.

But all this is why I was interested to try to at least start with all the actual words Prince spoke in that concert about that subject.

[Edited 5/15/20 7:36am]

Listen to Lisa's discussion with Questlove on his Pandora show if you haven't yet heard it. Lisa specifically speaks to being classically trained, and playing those pieces for Prince and his Dad when she was living at his house. Prince and his Dad DID NOT read or play classical music. Prince stated this in early interviews as well.

*

I also don't think Prince's Dad was playing Bill Evans' music at the strip clubs in MN. So, it's very possible that Prince had not really spent time listening to Evans in his younger days.

jaawwnn said:

rednblue said:

Agree that limits to knowledge of people who weren't present at the origins is the bottom line. Not at all to say that accounts and other infomation isn't worth seeking out and discussing. To the contrary. : )

But in the end, knowledge "from the outside" has some limits. Over on the "Taking Credit For Prince's Art After He Passed" thread, TrivialPursuit observed that, "It's not exactly a secret that Prince would hear something, take it, and make a song from it often not crediting the person who he got it from."

In response, I tried to some up the origins issue: "This has been described by multiple musicians from multiple eras. Same for Prince sometimes crediting others with his own ideas and writing.

As fans, we don't have first-hand knowledge of the truth of who contributed what.

That said, it's clear that Prince was a musical genius who worked with many extremely talented artists."

Honestly, my take on it is we'll never know and it's not really worth worrying about who came up with this or that chord sequence. I don't think Mountains would exist as it is without Wendy & Lisa but I know for sure that it wouldn't exist as it is without Prince, you know?

The best stuff (for me anyway) are stories like Susannah's that led to Starfish & Coffee, which is best described as: a song by Prince inspired by a story he heard from a friend.

I'm grateful for Prince for introducing me to the music of Wendy & Lisa, that I probaby would not have come across if i wasn't for him. I love their music in a very different way to how I love Prince's, less obsessively but maybe a little more personally. It's a weird one.

Interestingly, I think most of the music Wendy & Lisa released after Prince - other than the few that were clearly made to try to hit the Billboard charts - still stands up today. It does not have that very typical "80's" or early 90's pop sound. While I'm sure a big objective was to make "hits", especially to satisfy the label, it seems clear that they still wanted to put out music in their own style and sound.