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Reply #150 posted 05/14/20 1:31am

JorisE73

JudasLChrist said:

The orignial post here is Wendy detailing a story about how Mountains came to be. It shouldn't activate all this butthurt from so called fans. It's super cool when band members share info like this.


This is the reason a lot of people with great info refuse to share.
too many of Prince's fans seem like an ungreatful bunch who are more happy with attacking people than listening to great info.

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Reply #151 posted 05/14/20 3:46am

BartVanHemelen

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PennyPurple said:

It's not sexism. It's like Banished said, they and others are downplaying things that Prince himself accomplished.

.

No they do not, that's just BS you made up in your mind to justify your sexism.

.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
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Reply #152 posted 05/14/20 4:12am

thebanishedone

BartVanHemelen said:



PennyPurple said:





It's not sexism. It's like Banished said, they and others are downplaying things that Prince himself accomplished.



.


No they do not, that's just BS you made up in your mind to justify your sexism.


.


really so Wendy didn't say shevintriduce Prince to jazz and suspended chords? Cause she repeated that more than once
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Reply #153 posted 05/14/20 4:25am

JudasLChrist

avatar

thebanishedone said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

No they do not, that's just BS you made up in your mind to justify your sexism.

.

really so Wendy didn't say shevintriduce Prince to jazz and suspended chords? Cause she repeated that more than once


Wendy and Lisa's fathers were famous LA studio musicians and the Melvoin/Coleman families were into deep musical shit. Yes, I am sure they introduced him to music that he had not heard. People getting stuck on stuff like this is BUTTHURT. Wendy and Lisa had musical things that Prince did not. That is a great reason to put folks in your band.

Prince and associates have talked many times about how their primary musical influences and access to music came from radio stations in Minnesota. I'm from Minnesota as well, and I understand this telling of how culturally isolated MN is.

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Reply #154 posted 05/14/20 4:28am

JudasLChrist

avatar

JorisE73 said:

JudasLChrist said:

The orignial post here is Wendy detailing a story about how Mountains came to be. It shouldn't activate all this butthurt from so called fans. It's super cool when band members share info like this.


This is the reason a lot of people with great info refuse to share.
too many of Prince's fans seem like an ungreatful bunch who are more happy with attacking people than listening to great info.



Yeah, I feel like, especially since Prince's death, there's a giant segment of Prince fandom that needs to go stand in the corner. There's a bunch of people that seem committed to making this not fun at all. I used to check the org every day for over a decade. Now, hardly ever, though I've been checking more the last month or so.

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Reply #155 posted 05/14/20 4:45am

PennyPurple

avatar

BartVanHemelen said:

PennyPurple said:

It's not sexism. It's like Banished said, they and others are downplaying things that Prince himself accomplished.

.

No they do not, that's just BS you made up in your mind to justify your sexism.

.

There is no sexism involved at all, and it's stupid to think that there is.

Free Poppy's, Bombsquad, 13, Nero, Mdiver, shanti0608, RDhull. If Glamslam can get a 2nd chance, they should be able to also. 2020=CHANGE
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Reply #156 posted 05/14/20 5:40am

Milty2

JudasLChrist said:

JorisE73 said:


This is the reason a lot of people with great info refuse to share.
too many of Prince's fans seem like an ungreatful bunch who are more happy with attacking people than listening to great info.



Yeah, I feel like, especially since Prince's death, there's a giant segment of Prince fandom that needs to go stand in the corner. There's a bunch of people that seem committed to making this not fun at all. I used to check the org every day for over a decade. Now, hardly ever, though I've been checking more the last month or so.

Yeah Prince fans sometimes just need to take a minute. It's really not that serious.

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Reply #157 posted 05/14/20 5:42am

RJOrion

for the Wendy & Lisa supporters who are hellbent on being in their feelings and name calling and making outlandish accusations:

you DO realize that different people have different opinions, right?...i think as adults we should all understand that. So its almost comical to see that some of you are so insistent on trying to change peoples opinions or to ridicule them for having them...like databank said, i cant believe this thread has gone on this long.. but the reason it has, is because when a grown ass adult believes a certain way or has certain convictions they stand firm in, there is usually no swaying that. I love the Minnesota Vilings, but im well aware that the 31 other NFL teams have their loyal fans too. And that cause me no grief. I love fried chicken and there are those who wouldnt dare put their mouths on fried poultry. So if someone thinks Wendy Melvion is an overrated guitar player with delusions of grandeur, why does that cause people to get in their feelings and commence to reckless name calling?. I could see if you were actually Wendy or Lisa commenting...but im pretty sure youre not. Its not cool for adults who should know better, to act as such. I love Doja Cat, and i hear all kinds of negativity about her. No big deal. What i eat doesnt make you shit, so why get in your feelings because a great deal of people arent on the Wendy & Lisa bandwagon like some others are?...its not "sexism" or "hating" or "lesbian props"(whatever that is)...different people like and dislike different stuff...its fine to disagree, but to start with the name calling and belittling and psycho analysis of people, because someone doesnt like and agree with you or your beliefs is mad childish.
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Reply #158 posted 05/14/20 6:51am

violetcrush

RJOrion said:

for the Wendy & Lisa supporters who are hellbent on being in their feelings and name calling and making outlandish accusations: you DO realize that different people have different opinions, right?...i think as adults we should all understand that. So its almost comical to see that some of you are so insistent on trying to change peoples opinions or to ridicule them for having them...like databank said, i cant believe this thread has gone on this long.. but the reason it has, is because when a grown ass adult believes a certain way or has certain convictions they stand firm in, there is usually no swaying that. I love the Minnesota Vilings, but im well aware that the 31 other NFL teams have their loyal fans too. And that cause me no grief. I love fried chicken and there are those who wouldnt dare put their mouths on fried poultry. So if someone thinks Wendy Melvion is an overrated guitar player with delusions of grandeur, why does that cause people to get in their feelings and commence to reckless name calling?. I could see if you were actually Wendy or Lisa commenting...but im pretty sure youre not. Its not cool for adults who should know better, to act as such. I love Doja Cat, and i hear all kinds of negativity about her. No big deal. What i eat doesnt make you shit, so why get in your feelings because a great deal of people arent on the Wendy & Lisa bandwagon like some others are?...its not "sexism" or "hating" or "lesbian props"(whatever that is)...different people like and dislike different stuff...its fine to disagree, but to start with the name calling and belittling and psycho analysis of people, because someone doesnt like and agree with you or your beliefs is mad childish.

You are correct. You are certainly allowed to have your opinion about any of Prince's band members, and also Prince's music.

*

However, the majority of folks on this site, and more specifically, this thread - completely disagree with your opinion - especially when you've made it clear that you have never even bothered to look into, or listen to, any of the music that Wendy has recorded since her time with Prince.

*

We have also supported our opinion by listing the extensive and consistent career Wendy has had since leaving Prince - both with her own recordings, and also collaborations with other very prominent musicians/recording artists. We have shown that, by far, she (along with Lisa) has had the most commercial output as compared to any of Prince's past band members.

*

So, while yes, you are entitled to your opinion, we have demonstrated that it is a rather unreasonable one at best, which is why it has been questioned that your thinking is stemming from some other issue with Wendy.

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Reply #159 posted 05/14/20 7:20am

rednblue

RJOrion said:

for the Wendy & Lisa supporters who are hellbent on being in their feelings and name calling and making outlandish accusations: you DO realize that different people have different opinions, right?...i think as adults we should all understand that. So its almost comical to see that some of you are so insistent on trying to change peoples opinions or to ridicule them for having them...like databank said, i cant believe this thread has gone on this long.. but the reason it has, is because when a grown ass adult believes a certain way or has certain convictions they stand firm in, there is usually no swaying that. I love the Minnesota Vilings, but im well aware that the 31 other NFL teams have their loyal fans too. And that cause me no grief. I love fried chicken and there are those who wouldnt dare put their mouths on fried poultry. So if someone thinks Wendy Melvion is an overrated guitar player with delusions of grandeur, why does that cause people to get in their feelings and commence to reckless name calling?. I could see if you were actually Wendy or Lisa commenting...but im pretty sure youre not. Its not cool for adults who should know better, to act as such. I love Doja Cat, and i hear all kinds of negativity about her. No big deal. What i eat doesnt make you shit, so why get in your feelings because a great deal of people arent on the Wendy & Lisa bandwagon like some others are?...its not "sexism" or "hating" or "lesbian props"(whatever that is)...different people like and dislike different stuff...its fine to disagree, but to start with the name calling and belittling and psycho analysis of people, because someone doesnt like and agree with you or your beliefs is mad childish.


Whatever people may feel/think about Wendy's guitar skills or personality/character, those subjects are not the topic of this "origins of 'Mountains' " thread.

(That said, it would be on point for everyone to laugh at me right now as I see underlying themes that make me think of multiple threads at once, so my thoughts don't see all threads as dissociated from one another. So some people may often disagree with me about what is on topic.)


I'm going to venture into fraught territory, because I think most everyone here is undoubtedly cool at heart. Also, I think it may play into why a topic of a thread (in this case, Wendy on 'Mountains' origins) may get into areas like off-topic skills, and/or people's reactions to the personality of an associate. I like most all associates, but some people are of the opinion that Wendy is too loud/grandiose/brash.

It's not infrequent that threads go off topic into how people feel that an associate has character/personality issues, or into off topic beliefs/frustrations that an associate is unskilled or has made an unworthy contribution to, or even messed up, Prince's art.

This often leads to people getting upset. I think some of it comes down to the ideal of evenhandedness with language sensitivity. I'm the last one with answers about how to keep this from messing with threads. We can't wave a wand so that everyone has walked in everyone else's life-experience shoes. It's dicey stuff.

[Edited 5/14/20 10:09am]

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Reply #160 posted 05/14/20 7:31am

RJOrion

violetcrush said:



RJOrion said:


for the Wendy & Lisa supporters who are hellbent on being in their feelings and name calling and making outlandish accusations: you DO realize that different people have different opinions, right?...i think as adults we should all understand that. So its almost comical to see that some of you are so insistent on trying to change peoples opinions or to ridicule them for having them...like databank said, i cant believe this thread has gone on this long.. but the reason it has, is because when a grown ass adult believes a certain way or has certain convictions they stand firm in, there is usually no swaying that. I love the Minnesota Vilings, but im well aware that the 31 other NFL teams have their loyal fans too. And that cause me no grief. I love fried chicken and there are those who wouldnt dare put their mouths on fried poultry. So if someone thinks Wendy Melvion is an overrated guitar player with delusions of grandeur, why does that cause people to get in their feelings and commence to reckless name calling?. I could see if you were actually Wendy or Lisa commenting...but im pretty sure youre not. Its not cool for adults who should know better, to act as such. I love Doja Cat, and i hear all kinds of negativity about her. No big deal. What i eat doesnt make you shit, so why get in your feelings because a great deal of people arent on the Wendy & Lisa bandwagon like some others are?...its not "sexism" or "hating" or "lesbian props"(whatever that is)...different people like and dislike different stuff...its fine to disagree, but to start with the name calling and belittling and psycho analysis of people, because someone doesnt like and agree with you or your beliefs is mad childish.


You are correct. You are certainly allowed to have your opinion about any of Prince's band members, and also Prince's music.


*


However, the majority of folks on this site, and more specifically, this thread - completely disagree with your opinion - especially when you've made it clear that you have never even bothered to look into, or listen to, any of the music that Wendy has recorded since her time with Prince.


*


We have also supported our opinion by listing the extensive and consistent career Wendy has had since leaving Prince - both with her own recordings, and also collaborations with other very prominent musicians/recording artists. We have shown that, by far, she (along with Lisa) has had the most commercial output as compared to any of Prince's past band members.


*


So, while yes, you are entitled to your opinion, we have demonstrated that it is a rather unreasonable one at best, which is why it has been questioned that your thinking is stemming from some other issue with Wendy.



i never said i didnt listen to their music...lol...ive listened thoroughly to ALL their albums on TIDAL...as a Prince fan i wanted to like their music, but i find their music is quite boring and uneventful...and i could care less what "most people" on this site do or think, when it comes to my own feelings and opinions.. and there are actually quite a few people on this site and out in the rest of the world who feel the same way i do...people from different demographics and different backgrounds hear and enjoy different music differently...but some people have a hard time accepting that, and then they get in their feelings when people dont see, hear or feel things the same way they do...whether its because of age, gender, race, or persomal experiences, people will always have polarizing opinions, especially when it comes to art...so to say somone is sexist or hating or "daft" or ignorant, is completely selfish and narrowminded and completely ignores that fact that we are all cut from a different cloth and have the right to different opinions... i love Jughead, DaddyPop and Housequake, and there is endless ridicule about those songs...i never felt compelled to start name calling because certain people here dont like those songs...im not sure why this doesnt make sense
[Edited 5/14/20 7:58am]
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Reply #161 posted 05/14/20 7:44am

CherryMoon57

avatar

Going back to the topic, what's very interesting is that I always thought that Mountains sounded more like a Wendy and Lisa tune than a Prince one. I couldn't quite put my finger on it at the time, then when I later bought Wendy and Lisa's first album, I realised that most of the songs had that same feel. So it sort of makes sense now...

Life Matters
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Reply #162 posted 05/14/20 7:50am

rednblue

CherryMoon57 said:

Going back to the topic, what's very interesting is that I always thought that Mountains sounded more like a Wendy and Lisa tune than a Prince one. I couldn't quite put my finger on it at the time, then when I later bought Wendy and Lisa's first album, I realised that most of the songs had that same feel. So it sort of makes sense now...


Are there songs that to you have particularly akin vibes, or other similarities with Mountains, such that you might call them sibling songs? biggrin

It sounds like you might feel that way about songs on that first album.

[Edited 5/14/20 7:52am]

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Reply #163 posted 05/14/20 7:57am

CherryMoon57

avatar

rednblue said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Going back to the topic, what's very interesting is that I always thought that Mountains sounded more like a Wendy and Lisa tune than a Prince one. I couldn't quite put my finger on it at the time, then when I later bought Wendy and Lisa's first album, I realised that most of the songs had that same feel. So it sort of makes sense now...


Are there songs that to you have particularly akin vibes, or other similarities with Mountains, such that you might call them sibling songs? biggrin

It sounds like you might feel that way about songs on that first album.

[Edited 5/14/20 7:52am]


There is not one precise one in particular as it is the overall vibe of the album really, but f I had to pick one that has the closest vibe to Mountains, I would say Honeymoon Express...

Life Matters
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Reply #164 posted 05/14/20 8:17am

jone70

avatar

violetcrush said:

One thing you don't seem to realize is that Wendy would never have been invited to join the band had Prince not believed she was a great player and could also bring something more to the table.


Right, I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact he liked Susannah. /s She brough Susannah to the table. lol Wendy is a good musician, I don't think anyone on this thread is disputing that. People are simply pointing out that she has shown a repeated propensity (particulary since 4/21/16) for embellishing her, Lisa, and the Revolution's contributions and influence on Prince,

The check. The string he dropped. The Mona Lisa. The musical notes taken out of a hat. The glass. The toy shotgun painting. The things he found. Therefore, everything seen–every object, that is, plus the process of looking at it–is a Duchamp.
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Reply #165 posted 05/14/20 8:20am

rednblue

CherryMoon57 said:

rednblue said:


Are there songs that to you have particularly akin vibes, or other similarities with Mountains, such that you might call them sibling songs? biggrin

It sounds like you might feel that way about songs on that first album.

[Edited 5/14/20 7:52am]


There is not one precise one in particular as it is the overall vibe of the album really, but f I had to pick one that has the closest vibe to Mountains, I would say Honeymoon Express...


Yup. Each song is a unique individual, from its creation to how it gets out in the world and becomes part of every life it touches.

Thanks for humoring me with the response, as even typing the question, I started to realize it wasn't the best way of looking at things. Sort of like how there can be a problem with ranked lists. Each favorite song has its own flavor, and that often doesn't lend itself to ranking.

Like Honeymoon Express, but it's been a while since I listened to it. That whole album is going on my playlist for today. cool

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Reply #166 posted 05/14/20 8:31am

rednblue

jone70 said:

violetcrush said:

One thing you don't seem to realize is that Wendy would never have been invited to join the band had Prince not believed she was a great player and could also bring something more to the table.


Right, I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact he liked Susannah. /s She brough Susannah to the table. lol Wendy is a good musician, I don't think anyone on this thread is disputing that. People are simply pointing out that she has shown a repeated propensity (particulary since 4/21/16) for embellishing her, Lisa, and the Revolution's contributions and influence on Prince,


Prince was famous for pursuing women. Are you suggesting that he would sacrifice his current core band by giving a major position to a musician that wasn't really his choice? He could still pursue Susannah. In fact, Susannah has said that when she was with P, she felt a pull from him...a bit of a pull in a direction away from her family. So it's not clear that having everyone in such close proximity was something to target.

Prince chose Wendy. He wanted her to be a part of his musical endeavor.

Also, these angles can get dicey. Did you see the thread that got into another work/couples issue via discussion of Prince wanting to recruit Hannah for 3rdeyegirl, and subsequently retaining Josh? Prince wanted Josh there, and he wanted him to play certain roles and do certain work. That decision was made by Prince. If this site is about one thing first and foremost, isn't it Prince's immense musical talent and artistic vision? I'm not saying don't discuss from such angles. But it's good (I think) for all to be aware that people get vibes of racism, sexism, etc. when discussion wades into romantic connections, perceived "loud" personalities or lack thereof, talent or lack thereof, etc.

[Edited 5/14/20 20:37pm]

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Reply #167 posted 05/14/20 8:36am

JudasLChrist

avatar

jone70 said:

violetcrush said:

One thing you don't seem to realize is that Wendy would never have been invited to join the band had Prince not believed she was a great player and could also bring something more to the table.


Right, I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact he liked Susannah. /s She brough Susannah to the table. lol Wendy is a good musician, I don't think anyone on this thread is disputing that. People are simply pointing out that she has shown a repeated propensity (particulary since 4/21/16) for embellishing her, Lisa, and the Revolution's contributions and influence on Prince,


No, she has not. Wendy has been very careful to explain what their contribution was. Too carefeul, imo. She shouldn't have to be so careful.

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Reply #168 posted 05/14/20 9:12am

mbdtyler

RJOrion said:

for the Wendy & Lisa supporters who are hellbent on being in their feelings and name calling and making outlandish accusations: you DO realize that different people have different opinions, right?...i think as adults we should all understand that. So its almost comical to see that some of you are so insistent on trying to change peoples opinions or to ridicule them for having them...like databank said, i cant believe this thread has gone on this long.. but the reason it has, is because when a grown ass adult believes a certain way or has certain convictions they stand firm in, there is usually no swaying that. I love the Minnesota Vilings, but im well aware that the 31 other NFL teams have their loyal fans too. And that cause me no grief. I love fried chicken and there are those who wouldnt dare put their mouths on fried poultry. So if someone thinks Wendy Melvion is an overrated guitar player with delusions of grandeur, why does that cause people to get in their feelings and commence to reckless name calling?. I could see if you were actually Wendy or Lisa commenting...but im pretty sure youre not. Its not cool for adults who should know better, to act as such. I love Doja Cat, and i hear all kinds of negativity about her. No big deal. What i eat doesnt make you shit, so why get in your feelings because a great deal of people arent on the Wendy & Lisa bandwagon like some others are?...its not "sexism" or "hating" or "lesbian props"(whatever that is)...different people like and dislike different stuff...its fine to disagree, but to start with the name calling and belittling and psycho analysis of people, because someone doesnt like and agree with you or your beliefs is mad childish.

Other users made a solid argument for Wendy and Lisa's contributions to The Revolution and their talents as standalone artists, and you were completely dismissive every step of the way. Now you want to whine about people not being respectful? lol

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Reply #169 posted 05/14/20 9:38am

RJOrion

mbdtyler said:



RJOrion said:


for the Wendy & Lisa supporters who are hellbent on being in their feelings and name calling and making outlandish accusations: you DO realize that different people have different opinions, right?...i think as adults we should all understand that. So its almost comical to see that some of you are so insistent on trying to change peoples opinions or to ridicule them for having them...like databank said, i cant believe this thread has gone on this long.. but the reason it has, is because when a grown ass adult believes a certain way or has certain convictions they stand firm in, there is usually no swaying that. I love the Minnesota Vilings, but im well aware that the 31 other NFL teams have their loyal fans too. And that cause me no grief. I love fried chicken and there are those who wouldnt dare put their mouths on fried poultry. So if someone thinks Wendy Melvion is an overrated guitar player with delusions of grandeur, why does that cause people to get in their feelings and commence to reckless name calling?. I could see if you were actually Wendy or Lisa commenting...but im pretty sure youre not. Its not cool for adults who should know better, to act as such. I love Doja Cat, and i hear all kinds of negativity about her. No big deal. What i eat doesnt make you shit, so why get in your feelings because a great deal of people arent on the Wendy & Lisa bandwagon like some others are?...its not "sexism" or "hating" or "lesbian props"(whatever that is)...different people like and dislike different stuff...its fine to disagree, but to start with the name calling and belittling and psycho analysis of people, because someone doesnt like and agree with you or your beliefs is mad childish.

Other users made a solid argument for Wendy and Lisa's contributions to The Revolution and their talents as standalone artists, and you were completely dismissive every step of the way. Now you want to whine about people not being respectful? lol




more silliness...because i refuse to change my opinion because of what others say, thats somehow construed as "whining"...what a joke... youre proving my entire point...some of you just cant accept the fact that people dont agree with you...thats you and their problem, not mine...in fact all of you are whining for 6 pages because i dont like W&L's music...that continues to humor me, as if you cant tell by now...ive tried to explain clearly and eloquently how and why i feel the way i do, but some of you are so stuck in your feelings that you wont let it go...if im "whining" so much and it hurts you so much, why do you keep addressing me?...are you trying to change my mind? or are you just displayimg how much my comments hurt your feelings?...i suspect the latter...
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Reply #170 posted 05/14/20 9:57am

RJOrion

What's also funny and VERY revealing is the same people who cape up for Wendy & Lisa, will remorselessly bash, disrespect and ridicule Prince collaborators like Larry Graham (who is WAY more accomplished and legendary than the entire Revolution combined), or Tony M. who was featured on Prince songs much longer than W&L were. But where is that same energy when the anti Larry Graham and Tony M rhetoric starts running rampant?...some of you just cant help but show your true colors...and i love it...so keep going..😎
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Reply #171 posted 05/14/20 9:59am

wonderboy

databank said:

Fantastic post from DataBank. The best I've read in a long time. Thanks for the effort and insight.

It is no wonder Prince cleared his music house of would be geniuses. I am so amazed that with all the talent they say they had and the huge contribution to the success of Prince, that they all didn't have solo careers that paralled that of Prince's. Oh! Ofcourse they didn't have that inspiration around them to push them to great height. A genius, no less. They were all very talented but it takes that drive and hard work to achieve the success of a genius. It is God given.

Yes, these people were very talented and Prince was a rare genius, but the reality of the music industry is unfortunately more complicated than that.

.

The music industry is a harsh and very competitive market. It already says a lot that nearly everyone involved in P's band or side projects in the 80's got a solo deal on a major at some point after they left: André, Vanity, Apollonia, Morris, Jam & Lewis as producers, Jesse, Paul, Wendy & Lisa, Mark, Bobby, not to mention all their side projects (Mazarati, The Girls, The DayZ's, Ta Mara & The Seen, etc.)... It was a purple invasion and I honestly don't understand why Dez wasn't able to get a deal when everyone else did! They got the gigs because they had that purple label, but also because they were all very capable of recording albums, no question about it.

.

However, labels back then signed a lot of acts but only pushed a few, leaving the others and their management to fence for themselves and only keeping those who'd sell more than X copies on the roster once the initial deal was over. This tactics also exist in publishing and always confuses artists: why would you sign me if you ain't gonna push my product? WB wants to sign TC and forces P's hand to sign him when he didn't even want him on his label, then WB does nothing to sell TC's record. WTF? Usually it has to do with just taking chances in case it'd work, preventing the competition from acquiring an artist that might compete with another artist the label/publisher's already signed, and/or keeping the label/publisher's brand on the shelves on a constant basis for publicity purposes, at least that's what several professionals in either field explained to me. Many artists from that era, including many of those P associates mentioned above, later complained that their label hadn't supported them the way they should have, or didn't know how to market them properly because the product delivered didn't fulfil the label's expectation, expectations that had to do with marketability not quality.

.

Now, if you wanna ask why Prince is an icon and the others aren't, in the end most of the artists mentioned above released remarkable records that are now cherished by those few Prince and funk fans who still remember them, but none of them, save for Jam & Lewis with Janet, released anything groundbreaking that could rival the output Prince was coming up with at the time. Prince himself was very lucky: his output was so experimental and so peculiar by pop and funk's standards that if WB hadn't put so much faith in him, and pushed his records for years, leaving him enough time to grow artistically and grow a large, faithful audience, Prince could easily have been left on the side of the road before he could release Purple Rain. It could have been a very different story had Prince signed, for example, with CBS or A&M in 1977. Another label could have sent Dirty Mind back to him and told him "you record something else, we ain't putting this nonsense out". Another label could have dropped Prince after Controversy, telling him "your shit is too weird, we don't know how to sell that, why can't you just record standard R&B like Cameo or EW&F?". For all we know, he'd have been dropped after 3 records, he'd have spent the rest of the decade fencing to get deals on other majors, there wouldn't have been any Purple Rain, and Prince could have ended-up becoming an independent artist with a niche fanbase, or even a session musician or a producer. I know it's VERY hard to believe when we know what P's career ended-up being, the success he's enjoyed and the iconic status he has today, but it could have happened. Many talented artists I like were dropped by their label after a few records, some of them never to be heard of again. Even established artists like George Clinton, David Bowie, Chaka Khan or Seal (to name a few) saw their label refusing to release a new album of theirs despite their previous commercial achievements! The story of Prince's former associates and their misfortunes with labels in the 80's are, unfortunately, all too ordinary. And, let me say it again, Prince was incredibly lucky to have found a label whose executives had a blind faith in his work and its commercial potential despite Prince often delivering odd and unusual material. It's quite remarkable that the shit only hit the fan between him and WB in 1993, it could have happened way earlier, if not from the very beginning.

.

Also, but that doesn't say much about their commercial success or lack of, none of P's associates had Prince's vision. And I'm saying "vision" not "talent" purposedly. Prince had the vision to come-up with a very unique, idiosyncratic sound and esthetics, his work stands out in the history of pop music. The others came-up with mostly excellent but more generic sounding minneapolis sound albums or, in the case of W&L and Bobby, mostly excellent but more generic pop albums. The most innovative one of the batch, besides of course Jam & Lewis, might be André with his funk/new wave crossover albums (the first one, in particular, really stands out), but CBS told him they couldn't market his new wave shit cos he was black and expected to deliver R&B!! The same could be said about the vast majority of the extremely talented musicians Prince took in his band after 86 and up until his death, including Sheila and Eric by the way: most of their solo records are excellent, but they sound quite generic or, at least, do not breathe originality. It's one thing to be a super skilled musician and a competent composer and, like you said, it's another to be an extremely original and innovative artist the kind of Prince, Kate Bush or Björk. But you don't need to be Prince or Kate Bush to release great music and be respected as a songwriter. Not everyone can nor should be expected to be a one in a generation genius. But as I said, these geniuses were lucky to have supporting labels and to have found a vast audience: originality can easily be the enemy of massive record sales. Artists like Prince, Kate Bush or Björk could have ended-up going unnoticed if not for supportive labels and the media excitement these labels' marketing departments managed to generate.

.

Non-artists ("muggles", or "civilians", as artists sometimes tend to call you guys, no offense meant) tend to see success through the lenses of commercial achievements but when you see and understand the artistic/entertainment industries from the inside, talent or vision does not always lead to commercial success, and sometimes even makes achieving it all the more difficult, while lack of talent or vision sometimes does not pose much of a problem as long as your product is in line with what the industry wants to push and what audiences will easily accept at one point in time. People also tend to believe that having a career as a musician only means having a solo record deal on a major label, but most musicians in fact make a profitable career being touring or session musicians, scoring TV, movies or advertisement, etc., or just releasing records on small indie labels (sometimes their own) that have a faithful niche audience. Look at the likes of Bill Laswell or John Zorn, who released hundreds of albums most people have never heard of, yet managed to keep releasing them for 4 decades and make a profit in the process.

.

The history of music, movies, literature, comics, dance, theatre and visual arts is filled with stories of great and famous musicians, directors, authors and artists fighting against the indifference or lack of supports of labels, movie studios, publishers, curators and so on that tried to push them in a direction they didn't want to go in, refused to put out their work or promote it properly once it was out, forced them to alter their work in a way they didn't want to, etc. When you understand the dynamics of the arts and entertainment world because either you've worked in it or studied it closely, you realize that the only people who can go on saying Wendy & Lisa or whomever else were failures and did not meet a success comparable to Prince's because they lacked talent or skills are people who only understand arts through the consumers' lense of the Top 200, summer blockbusters and best selling novels, but do not understand a thing about the inner dynamics of the industry, and how talent (or even genius) will only take you so far if you're not also the right person in the right place with the right product at the right time, and the luck to work with a company that's willing and able to push it properly and support your career on the long run. The reality of most artists is more complicated than having or not having a Top 10 hit, believe me. By any standards, Wendy & Lisa or most of the artists Prince had in his bands and side projects throughout his career are professional musicians who may not have achieved stardom status (and, for many, didn't even try), yet enjoyed very respectable careers, careers that many a professional or aspiring professional musician would be more than happy to have.

.

[Edited 5/12/20 11:56am]

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Reply #172 posted 05/14/20 10:52am

lavendardrumma
chine

JudasLChrist said:

Wendy and Lisa's fathers were famous LA studio musicians and the Melvoin/Coleman families were into deep musical shit. Yes, I am sure they introduced him to music that he had not heard. People getting stuck on stuff like this is BUTTHURT. Wendy and Lisa had musical things that Prince did not. That is a great reason to put folks in your band.


Yup and people discovered music different then, so it might take someone really introducing you for it to click. People were really in their own pockets. back then, even musicians. Hard to remember how sheltered and difficult it was to get exposed back then.

W & L had really unique msuical backgrounds. Prince had to have loved that, so why wouldn't he have wanted to draw off it? He obviously did. He's the son of a musician, he knew what it meant.

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Reply #173 posted 05/14/20 12:22pm

lrn36

avatar

JudasLChrist said:

thebanishedone said:

I think that for some people seems cool to downplay Prince as a musician .i also think that Prince used Wendy and lisa more in a "they are my muses" and maybe he thought it gives him certain kind of sophistication.while i do think that Lisa is a very good piano players ,i'm not so sure regarding Wendy's skills as a guitar player.ok she is a compentent rhythm guitar player but as a solo guitar player she was always bellow average.And i think that other musiciams hired them more because their association with Prince than their skills.what Wendy played on other people records is not something a half decent studio guitarist couldn't do better.Wendy did over estemate her influence on Prince.Noo Wendy didn't introduce Prince to jazz and she didn't introduce him to suspended chords.they were too cool white girls who looked good as a part of the look Prince was going for at the time.They got fired cause they started believing their own hype and after all it is proven thay Prince could go on with or without them.regarding Prince camp i find Jesse Johnson amd Morris Day much more talented than Wendy Melvoin.Morris did killer programing of yamaha dx7 on his first solo album and nobody gives him credit for that.And he was much better on his instrument than Wendy ever was. [Edited 5/13/20 14:32pm]



Both of them are great. Miko is a harder funker than Wendy, but wendy Has air and chord imagination. No "Purple Rain" without Wendy's voicing. It would have been a country song, otherwise. That's not to say that Wendy couldn't funk, she defintely could and did.

I don't knaw why people here go so hard after W&L. I think theire's a touch of sexism. It doesn't didminish Prince in any way to acknowledge that folks in his band made contributions. That's what bands are about. They are collaborative. Prince was very open about how involved in songwriting they were, to the point that folks like Matt Fink lightly expressed being dissappointed that he was not as involved as they were in songwriting.

The orignial post here is Wendy detailing a story about how Mountains came to be. It shouldn't activate all this butthurt from so called fans. It's super cool when band members share info like this.

I think there's a touch of racism on the other side . I didn't like it when Wendy said that Prince did things by instinct. Instinct is a word that people use to downplay one's intelligence and hard work. Prince most likely studied other composers, broke down what they did, and applied it to his work. Just because he didn't know the technical musical terms, doesn't mean he did it by mere "instinct." Maybe she meant it as a complement, but it didn't come off that way.

There was also W & L's objection to the Parade tour set up. I saw the interview where they said Prince wanted to do a "Soul Revue" with such condenscion and eye rolling, as if the whole concept was beneath them.

The whole idea of W & L introducing Prince to jazz is ridiculous because Prince's father was a jazz musician and P was doing jazz-funk fusion on his early demos. I would say his early demos and first two albums were more musically complex than the Purple Rain to Parade era.

There were people on this very site implying that Prince was this talented but unsophsticated rube who's world was opened up to beauty and art by Wendy, Lisa, and Susannah. It's like that Sandra Bullock movie the Blind Side.

I acknowledge W & L's contributions, their respect for Prince and their talent, but some of this stuff is so over the top and suspect.

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Reply #174 posted 05/14/20 12:41pm

RJOrion

lrn36 said:



JudasLChrist said:




thebanishedone said:


I think that for some people seems cool to downplay Prince as a musician .i also think that Prince used Wendy and lisa more in a "they are my muses" and maybe he thought it gives him certain kind of sophistication.while i do think that Lisa is a very good piano players ,i'm not so sure regarding Wendy's skills as a guitar player.ok she is a compentent rhythm guitar player but as a solo guitar player she was always bellow average.And i think that other musiciams hired them more because their association with Prince than their skills.what Wendy played on other people records is not something a half decent studio guitarist couldn't do better.Wendy did over estemate her influence on Prince.Noo Wendy didn't introduce Prince to jazz and she didn't introduce him to suspended chords.they were too cool white girls who looked good as a part of the look Prince was going for at the time.They got fired cause they started believing their own hype and after all it is proven thay Prince could go on with or without them.regarding Prince camp i find Jesse Johnson amd Morris Day much more talented than Wendy Melvoin.Morris did killer programing of yamaha dx7 on his first solo album and nobody gives him credit for that.And he was much better on his instrument than Wendy ever was. [Edited 5/13/20 14:32pm]



Both of them are great. Miko is a harder funker than Wendy, but wendy Has air and chord imagination. No "Purple Rain" without Wendy's voicing. It would have been a country song, otherwise. That's not to say that Wendy couldn't funk, she defintely could and did.

I don't knaw why people here go so hard after W&L. I think theire's a touch of sexism. It doesn't didminish Prince in any way to acknowledge that folks in his band made contributions. That's what bands are about. They are collaborative. Prince was very open about how involved in songwriting they were, to the point that folks like Matt Fink lightly expressed being dissappointed that he was not as involved as they were in songwriting.

The orignial post here is Wendy detailing a story about how Mountains came to be. It shouldn't activate all this butthurt from so called fans. It's super cool when band members share info like this.



I think there's a touch of racism on the other side . I didn't like it when Wendy said that Prince did things by instinct. Instinct is a word that people use to downplay one's intelligence and hard work. Prince most likely studied other composers, broke down what they did, and applied it to his work. Just because he didn't know the technical musical terms, doesn't mean he did it by mere "instinct." Maybe she meant it as a complement, but it didn't come off that way.


There was also W & L's objection to the Parade tour set up. I saw the interview where they said Prince wanted to do a "Soul Revue" with such condenscion and eye rolling, as if the whole concept was beneath them.


The whole idea of W & L introducing Prince to jazz is ridiculous because Prince's father was a jazz musician and P was doing jazz-funk fusion on his early demos. I would say his early demos and first two albums were more musically complex than the Purple Rain to Parade era.


There were people on this very site implying that Prince was this talented but unsophsticated rube who's world was opened up to beauty and art by Wendy, Lisa, and Susannah. It's like that Sandra Bullock movie the Blind Side.


I acknowledge W & L's contributions, their respect for Prince and their talent, but some of this stuff is so over the top and suspect.



exactly...especially your first sentence
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Reply #175 posted 05/14/20 1:24pm

bonatoc

avatar

RJOrion said:

What's also funny and VERY revealing is the same people who cape up for Wendy & Lisa, will remorselessly bash, disrespect and ridicule Prince collaborators like Larry Graham (who is WAY more accomplished and legendary than the entire Revolution combined), or Tony M. who was featured on Prince songs much longer than W&L were. But where is that same energy when the anti Larry Graham and Tony M rhetoric starts running rampant?...some of you just cant help but show your true colors...and i love it...so keep going..😎



Dear RJOrion, it seems like for you, it's either sales, duration,
or a "legendary" status that defines greatness,
because apparently "greatness" is what you crave for.

Except it ain't what Rock'n'Roll is all about.
In Rock'n'Roll, it happens because of stars alignment,
because a group of pals hit it off.

You'd probably wouldn't be pissing so hard against the wind
if Wendy & Lisa made a Top 10 with "Waterfall" or "Strung Out".
Hey, you want legendary, turns out
they're offspring to precisely that.

You seem to defend Prince on the basis he was so great
he deserved so much better than these "no-musicians",
but there's a contradiction here.

Either Prince is great, or he's so bad he can't pick musicians.
Next thing you'll argue that Prince wanted to appear so great
that he surrounded himself with poor musicianship on purpose.
Atta fan.

Databank sent you over the ring, and you declared forfeit,
before coming back with some missing teeth and keep on spitting
on women that made a name for themselves, actually the only ones
in the whole Prince menagerie.

For someone "legendary", Larry Graham has sure become confidential
to the public as Wendy & Lisa are. His music isn't played anymore,
and it wasn't that interesting in the first place. And frankly,
I frown upon anyone who calls himself the inventor of something.
There is a tradition of slapping bass since the 1920s.

This guy is so full of himself, of course he's despicable.
And slap bass, ahhh, the infamous slap bass, let's see,
when was the last time I heard that horrid
giant spring mattress sound on a hit
(since it's all that matters, right)?

Oh yes. Or maybe this? That?
Slap bass. Mph.
"Legendary" my ass.
No one wants to hear
the aforementioned anymore.

Like surf guitar, very fine on a Tarantino soundtrack,
maybe once a year, and then it goes back on the shelf,
because honestly, who wants to hear that? It's aural mould.

Steven Tyler took the gun from Janie's hands
and nailed the style's coffin with a Korg M1, of all basses.
That's exactly what it deserved.
Rest in peace, fad.



Prince is precisely great because,
like he said so himself, The Revolution was his Rock'n'Roll Mount Rushmore,
(and with much more finesse and fun than Deep Purple, another band
no one wants to listen anymore to except Rolling Stone subscribers).

Maybe you don't grasp exactly what Rock'n'Roll is about.
You start in a garage (a basement, a yard) and then
you stick together and make it to the top. Prince did not want
just a solo career. He wanted some "Prince and The Band".

Rock'n'Roll goes like this (the fourth, the fifth):
You start with friends who can hold an instrument.
Then, if you get lucky, some chemistry operates (you certainly don't need
"legendary" abilities — Larry Graham sure can slap quarter notes on the beat,
but as a solo baryton, he sucks like few male voices,
and I've listened to some, trust me),
and something unexpected, awkward yet magical can happen.
A combination of souls expressing a common intention.

The Ramones, The Bangles, The Stooges, The Clash, U2,
Hole, The Velvet Underground, The Beatles, The Stones,
Elvis, Scotty and Bill crossing Sun Studio’s doorway to make a demo for Ma,
say no more, say no more.


What makes these bands unique and alive is the sum of their parts,
and it doesn't matter if the drummer or the guitarist is as "good" as Ringo.

Ringo is a genius in his own way. It's intention that lasts in art,
not execution. Perfection in execution is mental masturbation,
and we discussed Prince’s speed in the studio enough to know
he was right, the draft matters and is often much purer
than something worked to "perfection" (God how this version sucks).

Whereas with session musicians, you can never go wrong.
There will never be danger. But there will never be soul either,
the Wrecking Crew, the Funk Brothers, Sly and Robbie
being rare exceptions (turns out they were friends outside the studio).

If you're looking for Steely Dan laser-like precision,
stick to the late nineties and over Prince, post Sonny & Michael.

It doesn't matter if Wendy & Lisa composed just a few songs.
So did George Harrison, and Eric Clapton he ain't.
What matters is that this group of pals making music (finally some slap with meaning!)
ignited in Prince’s mind a decade worth of songs in just two years,
all astounding, masterpieces on which he based
his entire following career once The Revolution was no more.

That doesn't take away his genius from him,
but after this purely incredible burst of studio creativity,
with released work qualified unanimously as stainless,
all he did was refining, simplifying, take some other
approach on ideas that were born from this original excitement
of having close friends and soulmates around, no matter their technical skills.

He climbed to the top with his friends,
not with some guys who get paid a fortune and spend
a day in the studio doing twenty "perfect" takes and then take off.

That ain't funky at all.


[Edited 5/14/20 14:05pm]

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #176 posted 05/14/20 1:24pm

JudasLChrist

avatar

lrn36 said:

JudasLChrist said:



Both of them are great. Miko is a harder funker than Wendy, but wendy Has air and chord imagination. No "Purple Rain" without Wendy's voicing. It would have been a country song, otherwise. That's not to say that Wendy couldn't funk, she defintely could and did.

I don't knaw why people here go so hard after W&L. I think theire's a touch of sexism. It doesn't didminish Prince in any way to acknowledge that folks in his band made contributions. That's what bands are about. They are collaborative. Prince was very open about how involved in songwriting they were, to the point that folks like Matt Fink lightly expressed being dissappointed that he was not as involved as they were in songwriting.

The orignial post here is Wendy detailing a story about how Mountains came to be. It shouldn't activate all this butthurt from so called fans. It's super cool when band members share info like this.

I think there's a touch of racism on the other side . I didn't like it when Wendy said that Prince did things by instinct. Instinct is a word that people use to downplay one's intelligence and hard work. Prince most likely studied other composers, broke down what they did, and applied it to his work. Just because he didn't know the technical musical terms, doesn't mean he did it by mere "instinct." Maybe she meant it as a complement, but it didn't come off that way.

There was also W & L's objection to the Parade tour set up. I saw the interview where they said Prince wanted to do a "Soul Revue" with such condenscion and eye rolling, as if the whole concept was beneath them.

The whole idea of W & L introducing Prince to jazz is ridiculous because Prince's father was a jazz musician and P was doing jazz-funk fusion on his early demos. I would say his early demos and first two albums were more musically complex than the Purple Rain to Parade era.

There were people on this very site implying that Prince was this talented but unsophsticated rube who's world was opened up to beauty and art by Wendy, Lisa, and Susannah. It's like that Sandra Bullock movie the Blind Side.

I acknowledge W & L's contributions, their respect for Prince and their talent, but some of this stuff is so over the top and suspect.


The idea that people wig the fuck out cause they suspect racism when praise or credit is given to Prince's most lauded white bandmembers such as W&L is so embedded and old in these discussions that I forgot about it.

I don't believe that Wendy ever claimed to have introduced Prince to Jazz, but I sure as hell bet her and Lisa introduced him to some of the heavy 70s shit. In fact I know they did. The comment about intuition, as I remember, was in response to a question about P releationship to music theory, and I think it was actually about Mountains (or life can be so nice), and how he pulled a complcated change out of out of the air. I have read the thing about not wanting the Rev to turn into an R+B/funk review, and I never got that because that would fucking rule, and Parade was such rad period for that band.

America is a fucked up, racist shitshow, and I don't fault anyone for suspecting racism around every corner.

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Reply #177 posted 05/14/20 1:27pm

bonatoc

avatar

Oh, and I can only recommend rewatching Syracuse on Youtube,
so we can all appreciate how much The Revolution sucks
on "Possessed/Irresistible Bitch".

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #178 posted 05/14/20 1:41pm

RJOrion

i dont expect to reach an understanding or even an agreeable compromise with the opposite race while discussing matters of race, and how it applies to art, politics, entertainment or any other human endeavor...blacks and whites have NEVER agreed on how racism and prejudice is employed and acted out, and we never will..its the human condition that rears its head in every aspect of life and it will never change as long as different races of people walk the earth...so to say im "pissing against the wind" is not my concern nor should you even care...Brown people live in a perpetual state of conflict against the anglo saxon peoples and their followers, and this site is a microcosm of that condition...so trying to convince me otherwise is an effort in futility...no one said The Revoltion sucked either...so now, words are being twisted and accusations are being made recklessly, but as usual that is par for the course
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Reply #179 posted 05/14/20 1:52pm

lrn36

avatar

JudasLChrist said:

lrn36 said:

I think there's a touch of racism on the other side . I didn't like it when Wendy said that Prince did things by instinct. Instinct is a word that people use to downplay one's intelligence and hard work. Prince most likely studied other composers, broke down what they did, and applied it to his work. Just because he didn't know the technical musical terms, doesn't mean he did it by mere "instinct." Maybe she meant it as a complement, but it didn't come off that way.

There was also W & L's objection to the Parade tour set up. I saw the interview where they said Prince wanted to do a "Soul Revue" with such condenscion and eye rolling, as if the whole concept was beneath them.

The whole idea of W & L introducing Prince to jazz is ridiculous because Prince's father was a jazz musician and P was doing jazz-funk fusion on his early demos. I would say his early demos and first two albums were more musically complex than the Purple Rain to Parade era.

There were people on this very site implying that Prince was this talented but unsophsticated rube who's world was opened up to beauty and art by Wendy, Lisa, and Susannah. It's like that Sandra Bullock movie the Blind Side.

I acknowledge W & L's contributions, their respect for Prince and their talent, but some of this stuff is so over the top and suspect.


The idea that people wig the fuck out cause they suspect racism when praise or credit is given to Prince's most lauded white bandmembers such as W&L is so embedded and old in these discussions that I forgot about it.

I don't believe that Wendy ever claimed to have introduced Prince to Jazz, but I sure as hell bet her and Lisa introduced him to some of the heavy 70s shit. In fact I know they did. The comment about intuition, as I remember, was in response to a question about P releationship to music theory, and I think it was actually about Mountains (or life can be so nice), and how he pulled a complcated change out of out of the air. I have read the thing about not wanting the Rev to turn into an R+B/funk review, and I never got that because that would fucking rule, and Parade was such rad period for that band.

America is a fucked up, racist shitshow, and I don't fault anyone for suspecting racism around every corner.

To be fair, Wendy also credited Prince as her biggest influence on guitar. She was floored when Prince wrote the Beautiful Ones seemingly out of nowhere. She said he was running on all cylinders. There is obviously a tremendous love and respect W & L have for Prince. I get the impression they thought the Revolution could be the next Beatles and Prince just wasn't commited to that idea. Maybe that disappointment still festers in some way.

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