RJOrion said:

its cute that a scarce few of you want to glorify and magnify the limited contributions of Wendy & Lisa, but the vast majority of music listeners, fans, critics, and musicians alike, understand that Wendy & Lisa's minimal contributions did little to enhance Prince's greatness as he prospered before and after their existence in The Revolution...furthermore unless its a Prince tribute, an even larger majority of people aint even checking for any music by Wendy & Lisa, and are even unaware that they still even made music, as they have toiled in relative obscurity since 1986... who even watches "Nurse Jackie" and can identify them as composers of the theme song...so ill conclude my commentary in this thread so the lovefest can continue uninterrupted...✋🏿 [Edited 5/12/20 10:41am]

They only gave their entire lives to Prince during his golden period, and his sound changed completely when they left. Yeah sure: 'minimal' contribution.

JudasLChrist said:

RJOrion said:

its cute that a scarce few of you want to glorify and magnify the limited contributions of Wendy & Lisa, but the vast majority of music listeners, fans, critics, and musicians alike, understand that Wendy & Lisa's minimal contributions did little to enhance Prince's greatness as he prospered before and after their existence in The Revolution...furthermore unless its a Prince tribute, an even larger majority of people aint even checking for any music by Wendy & Lisa, and are even unaware that they still even made music, as they have toiled in relative obscurity since 1986... who even watches "Nurse Jackie" and can identify them as composers of the theme song...so ill conclude my commentary in this thread so the lovefest can continue uninterrupted...✋🏿 [Edited 5/12/20 10:41am]

Prince was so talented, I don't have a word to sufficiently express the extent of his artistic talents. He chose to work with associates.

You'll say otherwise, but one of the biggest things you claimed right here in strong terms diminshes the relative merit of a LOT of non-80's associates, and I find that offensive. Say what you will, but your logic inescapably reaches that conclusion.

rednblue said:

RJOrion said:

rednblue said:

Prince was so talented, I don't have a word to sufficiently express the extent of his artistic talents. He chose to work with associates.

You'll say otherwise, but one of the biggest things you claimed right here in strong terms diminshes the relative merit of a LOT of non-80's associates, and I find that offensive. Say what you will, but your logic inescapably reaches that conclusion.

wrong...i would NEVER dininish the contributions of the mighty NPG band...Sonny T, Michael Bland, Levi Seacer, Sheila E, or even Joshua Welton Welton, Hannah Welton, Eddie M. Miko Weaver, Morris Hayes and Eric Leeds, etc..the difference is, they and their fans arent overzealously overstating their significance to Prince's catalog and stage performances ...Wendy & Lisa pale mightily in comparison to the talents and contributions of the people i just listed...they were around for just THREE YEARS...LOL ....3

You did right here, by your own logic on this thread. I already described how upthread. Would prefer not to clutter the thread, and not really invested enough, to copy and paste. But I can if that's what people want.

rednblue said:

Shame on us for still engaging I guess, but there is a cool conversation to be had here that isn't about slighting people for contributions they own. Likewise, it doesn't slight Prince to discuss it...it actually slights him to deny his creative relationships.

Earlier I mentioned the demo for Jungle Love that's credit to Jesse Johnson. It's all there but clearly Prince made it better. What's interesting is there's a Rehearsal of The Bird but it sure sounds like they're writing the track right there during the jam, not learning a song.

Fink is improvising and Prince is trying to guide him. Then when Fink hits a certain sound, Prince says "That sounds like a Dodo Bird", and "that's a million dollars". He knows he's got a hit in there somwwhere and he starts improvising lyrics to The Bird. To my ears, it sounds like Jungle Love, or a hybrid, with Bird's chorus on top. He's talking to Jesse, so Jesse's there.

Don't know the timing.... it could be that the Jungle Love demo came after this, and Jesse figured out what Prince wanted, or this is to learn Jungle Love, and Prince writes The Bird off it. Could also be both songs originated off that jam, which is what I suspect. It's fascinating and puts into context how silly this thread got.

First time I bothered checking out the theme to 'Nurse Jackie'... this is pretty damn solid. I'm more convinced of their musical contribution/ability in the context of Prince with this theme than any of the back and forth in this thread. Really, check it out if you haven't heard it.

[Edited 5/12/20 11:46am]

I loved MANY songs from the 80s. And being introduced to the NPG is one of my cherished musical memories.

Michael B., Sonny T., tons of other great talents that I could listen to for hours on end. That continued to be true as the years went on.

I think the fact that I was really disappointed by reading accounts of the enormously talented Rosie Gaines being treated badly, yet that could not diminish my enjoyment of the music, is a testament to how great the music was.

RJOrion said:

they were around for just THREE YEARS...LOL ....3 [Edited 5/12/20 11:30am]

You're just talking about Wendy now.

You know the others were around longer. Plus..so what? That says a lot how much they did in those years.


You prefer other collaborators and session players, which is cool, but most of them fail your own criteria about hits. Oops.

[Edited 5/12/20 11:48am]

RJOrion said:

rednblue said:

You did right here, by your own logic on this thread. I already described how upthread. Would prefer not to clutter the thread, and not really invested enough, to copy and paste. But I can if that's what people want.

oh please...youre trying to manipulate my comments while i respond to make them crystal clear for those who seem to lack understanding... you are cluttering the thread already by acting like you cant understand what im conveying...i cant help you with your reading comprehensoon, although ive tried...ive been very specific in my comments about Wendy & Lisa and their zealous fans...never once did i mention any other bandmembers until you tried to use some kind of convoluted logic to imply i somehow included them while speaking on Melvoin & Coleman... [Edited 5/12/20 11:40am]

WOW...trying to blame me for YOUR logic. It's exactly where your logic leads.

margi said:

OperatingThetan said:

Gradually, they will have written the music to every Prince and the Revolution song and Prince will be reduced to a mere lyricist. I'm not doubting their contributions. Only the increased importance they accord themselves on every retelling. * [Edited 5/8/20 14:25pm] [Edited 5/8/20 14:26pm] [Edited 5/8/20 14:26pm]

It is no wonder Prince cleared his music house of would be geniuses. I am so amazed that with all the talent they say they had and the huge contribution to the success of Prince, that they all didn't have solo careers that paralled that of Prince's. Oh! Ofcourse they didn't have that inspiration around them to push them to great height. A genius, no less. They were all very talented but it takes that drive and hard work to achieve the success of a genius. It is God given.

Yes, these people were very talented and Prince was a rare genius, but the reality of the music industry is unfortunately more complicated than that.

.

The music industry is a harsh and very competitive market. It already says a lot that nearly everyone involved in P's band or side projects in the 80's got a solo deal on a major at some point after they left: André, Vanity, Apollonia, Morris, Jam & Lewis as producers, Jesse, Paul, Wendy & Lisa, Mark, Bobby, not to mention all their side projects (Mazarati, The Girls, The DayZ's, Ta Mara & The Seen, etc.)... It was a purple invasion and I honestly don't understand why Dez wasn't able to get a deal when everyone else did! They got the gigs because they had that purple label, but also because they were all very capable of recording albums, no question about it.

.

However, labels back then signed a lot of acts but only pushed a few, leaving the others and their management to fence for themselves and only keeping those who'd sell more than X copies on the roster once the initial deal was over. This tactics also exist in publishing and always confuses artists: why would you sign me if you ain't gonna push my product? WB wants to sign TC and forces P's hand to sign him when he didn't even want him on his label, then WB does nothing to sell TC's record. WTF? Usually it has to do with just taking chances in case it'd work, preventing the competition from acquiring an artist that might compete with another artist the label/publisher's already signed, and/or keeping the label/publisher's brand on the shelves on a constant basis for publicity purposes, at least that's what several professionals in either field explained to me. Many artists from that era, including many of those P associates mentioned above, later complained that their label hadn't supported them the way they should have, or didn't know how to market them properly because the product delivered didn't fulfil the label's expectation, expectations that had to do with marketability not quality.

.

Now, if you wanna ask why Prince is an icon and the others aren't, in the end most of the artists mentioned above released remarkable records that are now cherished by those few Prince and funk fans who still remember them, but none of them, save for Jam & Lewis with Janet, released anything groundbreaking that could rival the output Prince was coming up with at the time. Prince himself was very lucky: his output was so experimental and so peculiar by pop and funk's standards that if WB hadn't put so much faith in him, and pushed his records for years, leaving him enough time to grow artistically and grow a large, faithful audience, Prince could easily have been left on the side of the road before he could release Purple Rain. It could have been a very different story had Prince signed, for example, with CBS or A&M in 1977. Another label could have sent Dirty Mind back to him and told him "you record something else, we ain't putting this nonsense out". Another label could have dropped Prince after Controversy, telling him "your shit is too weird, we don't know how to sell that, why can't you just record standard R&B like Cameo or EW&F?". For all we know, he'd have been dropped after 3 records, he'd have spent the rest of the decade fencing to get deals on other majors, there wouldn't have been any Purple Rain, and Prince could have ended-up becoming an independent artist with a niche fanbase, or even a session musician or a producer. I know it's VERY hard to believe when we know what P's career ended-up being, the success he's enjoyed and the iconic status he has today, but it could have happened. Many talented artists I like were dropped by their label after a few records, some of them never to be heard of again. Even established artists like George Clinton, David Bowie, Chaka Khan or Seal (to name a few) saw their label refusing to release a new album of theirs despite their previous commercial achievements! The story of Prince's former associates and their misfortunes with labels in the 80's are, unfortunately, all too ordinary. And, let me say it again, Prince was incredibly lucky to have found a label whose executives had a blind faith in his work and its commercial potential despite Prince often delivering odd and unusual material. It's quite remarkable that the shit only hit the fan between him and WB in 1993, it could have happened way earlier, if not from the very beginning.

.

Also, but that doesn't say much about their commercial success or lack of, none of P's associates had Prince's vision. And I'm saying "vision" not "talent" purposedly. Prince had the vision to come-up with a very unique, idiosyncratic sound and esthetics, his work stands out in the history of pop music. The others came-up with mostly excellent but more generic sounding minneapolis sound albums or, in the case of W&L and Bobby, mostly excellent but more generic pop albums. The most innovative one of the batch, besides of course Jam & Lewis, might be André with his funk/new wave crossover albums (the first one, in particular, really stands out), but CBS told him they couldn't market his new wave shit cos he was black and expected to deliver R&B!! The same could be said about the vast majority of the extremely talented musicians Prince took in his band after 86 and up until his death, including Sheila and Eric by the way: most of their solo records are excellent, but they sound quite generic or, at least, do not breathe originality. It's one thing to be a super skilled musician and a competent composer and, like you said, it's another to be an extremely original and innovative artist the kind of Prince, Kate Bush or Björk. But you don't need to be Prince or Kate Bush to release great music and be respected as a songwriter. Not everyone can nor should be expected to be a one in a generation genius. But as I said, these geniuses were lucky to have supporting labels and to have found a vast audience: originality can easily be the enemy of massive record sales. Artists like Prince, Kate Bush or Björk could have ended-up going unnoticed if not for supportive labels and the media excitement these labels' marketing departments managed to generate.

.

Non-artists ("muggles", or "civilians", as artists sometimes tend to call you guys, no offense meant) tend to see success through the lenses of commercial achievements but when you see and understand the artistic/entertainment industries from the inside, talent or vision does not always lead to commercial success, and sometimes even makes achieving it all the more difficult, while lack of talent or vision sometimes does not pose much of a problem as long as your product is in line with what the industry wants to push and what audiences will easily accept at one point in time. People also tend to believe that having a career as a musician only means having a solo record deal on a major label, but most musicians in fact make a profitable career being touring or session musicians, scoring TV, movies or advertisement, etc., or just releasing records on small indie labels (sometimes their own) that have a faithful niche audience. Look at the likes of Bill Laswell or John Zorn, who released hundreds of albums most people have never heard of, yet managed to keep releasing them for 4 decades and make a profit in the process.

.

The history of music, movies, literature, comics, dance, theatre and visual arts is filled with stories of great and famous musicians, directors, authors and artists fighting against the indifference or lack of supports of labels, movie studios, publishers, curators and so on that tried to push them in a direction they didn't want to go in, refused to put out their work or promote it properly once it was out, forced them to alter their work in a way they didn't want to, etc. When you understand the dynamics of the arts and entertainment world because either you've worked in it or studied it closely, you realize that the only people who can go on saying Wendy & Lisa or whomever else were failures and did not meet a success comparable to Prince's because they lacked talent or skills are people who only understand arts through the consumers' lense of the Top 200, summer blockbusters and best selling novels, but do not understand a thing about the inner dynamics of the industry, and how talent (or even genius) will only take you so far if you're not also the right person in the right place with the right product at the right time, and the luck to work with a company that's willing and able to push it properly and support your career on the long run. The reality of most artists is more complicated than having or not having a Top 10 hit, believe me. By any standards, Wendy & Lisa or most of the artists Prince had in his bands and side projects throughout his career are professional musicians who may not have achieved stardom status (and, for many, didn't even try), yet enjoyed very respectable careers, careers that many a professional or aspiring professional musician would be more than happy to have.

.

[Edited 5/12/20 11:56am]

I mean if you're throwing chart success and fruitful "solo careers" into the equation, Prince himself barely approached the same pop music command/zenith once he got rid of The Revolution, and the two or three records that did really didn't have the same staying power as those earlier 80s works he did with Wendy and/or Lisa.

I'm not arguing for either side, but he wasn't exactly pulling down MJ/Madonna sales figures with Lovesexy or Symbol records.

Lisa was around for a while and contributed like many other band members. I think that Dez contributed much more to Prince's first 5 albums than Wendy contributed to the 3 albums that she was around for. Dez was a better guitarist, was a better background singer and was around longer than Wendy. Strange that she is the most vocal out of any former associate for someone that was only around for 3 albums. She apparently likes to ride the coattails on Lisa's contributions. Kinda funny that truly great musicians like Larry Graham, Maceo Parker, Ida, John Blackwell, Renato, Sonny T., etc. do a lot less talking than Wendy but they were around a lot longer and Prince cited them as bigger influences on his music than anyone from the 80's. I was a fan way before 1984, so I tend to have a different perspective.

databank said: Also, but that doesn't say much about their commercial success or lack of, none of P's associates had Prince's vision. And I'm saying "vision" not "talent" purposedly. Prince had the vision to come-up with a very unique, idiosyncratic sound and esthetics, his work stands out in the history of pop music.

Databank, thank you so much for all of your post. I got a LOT out of it.

Regarding the part excerpted above, it helped me realize that "vision" is a word I should have found when searching for words to convey the greatness of P's work/creativity.

donnyenglish said:

Lisa was around for a while and contributed like many other band members. I think that Dez contributed much more to Prince's first 5 albums than Wendy contributed to the 3 albums that she was around for. Dez was a better guitarist, was a better background singer and was around longer than Wendy. Strange that she is the most vocal out of any former associate for someone that was only around for 3 albums. She apparently likes to ride the coattails on Lisa's contributions. Kinda funny that truly great musicians like Larry Graham, Maceo Parker, Ida, John Blackwell, Renato, Sonny T., etc. do a lot less talking than Wendy but they were around a lot longer and Prince cited them as bigger influences on his music than anyone from the 80's. I was a fan way before 1984, so I tend to have a different perspective.

I've been enjoying listening to Ida's music.

These were really fun interviews:


https://www.youtube.com/w...yJf2Pw_MVM


https://www.youtube.com/w...a_SDjgjbTk

donnyenglish said:

rednblue said:

donnyenglish said:

Lisa was around for a while and contributed like many other band members. I think that Dez contributed much more to Prince's first 5 albums than Wendy contributed to the 3 albums that she was around for. Dez was a better guitarist, was a better background singer and was around longer than Wendy. Strange that she is the most vocal out of any former associate for someone that was only around for 3 albums. She apparently likes to ride the coattails on Lisa's contributions. Kinda funny that truly great musicians like Larry Graham, Maceo Parker, Ida, John Blackwell, Renato, Sonny T., etc. do a lot less talking than Wendy but they were around a lot longer and Prince cited them as bigger influences on his music than anyone from the 80's. I was a fan way before 1984, so I tend to have a different perspective.

I've been enjoying listening to Ida's music.

These were really fun interviews:


https://www.youtube.com/w...yJf2Pw_MVM


https://www.youtube.com/w...a_SDjgjbTk

And speaking of the GREAT Sonny T. and Michael B., here's Michael B. on contributions that he and Sonny T. made to creating the core of 3121, Pussy Control, and Ripopgodazipper:



https://youtu.be/MRQyqgzgnyY?t=4336


Just now realizing this comment might belong on your Associates thread on people speaking on contributions to P music.

JudasLChrist said:

RJOrion said:

rednblue said:

You did right here, by your own logic on this thread. I already described how upthread. Would prefer not to clutter the thread, and not really invested enough, to copy and paste. But I can if that's what people want.

oh please...youre trying to manipulate my comments while i respond to make them crystal clear for those who seem to lack understanding... you are cluttering the thread already by acting like you cant understand what im conveying...i cant help you with your reading comprehensoon, although ive tried...ive been very specific in my comments about Wendy & Lisa and their zealous fans...never once did i mention any other bandmembers until you tried to use some kind of convoluted logic to imply i somehow included them while speaking on Melvoin & Coleman... [Edited 5/12/20 11:40am]

I really am sincere. I felt like despite the attempts of others, you weren't understanding that your logic is one that's not only often heard, but also potentially diminishing to the work of musicians. The whole reason why I tried this tack is that you did not seem to be getting that. I'm sincere that the whole "hit" mentality is often detrimental to art and artists. That result really is offensive to me. I thought that placing it in the broader context of all the associates that Prince chose to work with might finally make it clear.

It seems like some of the issues that you and others have with Wendy are character issues. You have reservations about her character.

FWIW, I think character is really important. I've got (literal ) rocket scientists in my family, but to me, it's character that really matters. Like, I'm the first to have plenty of faults, so don't mean it in a holier than thou way. Just mean that IMO, character matters infinitely more than smarts, talent, vision, etc.

I LOVE a lot of the music that Prince and his band created and played at the time when Rosie Gaines was in the band. But from her description of the way some of the other performers treated her on tour, there were character issues. Nobody, and most especially not grown people, should have disrespected her in that way.

Heck, Prince himself was known to have plenty of his own moments of treating people badly. But that doesn't speak to quality of music. Prince created an astounding amount of genius-level music/art.

[Edited 5/12/20 14:00pm]

Miko has repeatedly said that one of the main reasons he left was because he was tired of hering licks he came up with in rehearsal end up as songs and never getting credit.

RJOrion said:

JudasLChrist said:

RJOrion said:

its cute that a scarce few of you want to glorify and magnify the limited contributions of Wendy & Lisa, but the vast majority of music listeners, fans, critics, and musicians alike, understand that Wendy & Lisa's minimal contributions did little to enhance Prince's greatness as he prospered before and after their existence in The Revolution...furthermore unless its a Prince tribute, an even larger majority of people aint even checking for any music by Wendy & Lisa, and are even unaware that they still even made music, as they have toiled in relative obscurity since 1986... who even watches "Nurse Jackie" and can identify them as composers of the theme song...so ill conclude my commentary in this thread so the lovefest can continue uninterrupted...✋🏿 [Edited 5/12/20 10:41am]

They only gave their entire lives to Prince during his golden period, and his sound changed completely when they left. Yeah sure: 'minimal' contribution.

The Rev were only a band that he hired...just like all the other bands that he hired.

Why would Prince want his sound to stay the same? He liked to stay fresh, change things up.

PennyPurple said:

JudasLChrist said:

They only gave their entire lives to Prince during his golden period, and his sound changed completely when they left. Yeah sure: 'minimal' contribution.

The Rev were only a band that he hired...just like all the other bands that he hired.

Why would Prince want his sound to stay the same? He liked to stay fresh, change things up.

Or, to rephrase Judas' post in tune with what research has revealed, he let them go because he wanted to change his sound completely. Cause and effect are easily confused.

BartVanHemelen said:

Miko has repeatedly said that one of the main reasons he left was because he was tired of hering licks he came up with in rehearsal end up as songs and never getting credit.

I didn't know that, thx for the info.

donnyenglish said:

Lisa was around for a while and contributed like many other band members. I think that Dez contributed much more to Prince's first 5 albums than Wendy contributed to the 3 albums that she was around for. Dez was a better guitarist, was a better background singer and was around longer than Wendy. Strange that she is the most vocal

Weird that Wendy is getting the brunt here. Both Wendy and Lisa are making the claim about Mountains...and I don't think they're claiming Prince didn't write too.

Dez deserves his acclaim. Still, the more minimal guitar suited the next era of the Revolution.

The pattern here is the bands for hire becoming more collaborative or writing their own material and staking their claims which leads to parting ways and Prince bringing on people with less voice.

The idea that Prince ditched them right after only gives credibility to what they're saying. Whether or not some fans don't like Purple Rain through Parade, who cares.

[Edited 5/12/20 16:13pm]

[Edited 5/12/20 16:13pm]

rednblue said:

rednblue said:

I've been enjoying listening to Ida's music.

These were really fun interviews:


https://www.youtube.com/w...yJf2Pw_MVM


https://www.youtube.com/w...a_SDjgjbTk

And speaking of the GREAT Sonny T. and Michael B., here's Michael B. on contributions that he and Sonny T. made to creating the core of 3121, Pussy Control, and Ripopgodazipper:

I just listened to this interview the other day and that came as a surprise. To be fair, for having creatively worked with other people, when you work day in day out and everybody throws in ideas, it's easy to forget who came-up with what. I have collaborative works where I would be incapable to tell which ideas were originally mine and which were my collaborators. But of course we are all tempted to say "If I had been in P's situation, I would have kept track and given credit where credit was due", and honestly who can tell whether he did it on purpose or not. In some cases we know he did, in some other cases, like here, it's hard to tell. In that same interview, however, Michael explains that P gave the band at least some, if not all of the advance money he got from Edel and other labels involved for Exodus. We also know from the ASCAP database that the whole NPG band got full co-composing credits registered for the entirety of the Gold Nigga and Exodus album even though Prince composed most of the material by himself. So in his typical manner, Prince would steal money on one hand and give away money on the other. If one studies the history of the royalties he took off from, and gave away to people, it's quite fascinating. It even happened at least once that he would steal money from one person and give it away to another, like when Carmen ended up getting Anna's share of royalties for Fantasia Erotica, WTF

[Edited 5/12/20 19:54pm]

lavendardrummachine said:

donnyenglish said:

Lisa was around for a while and contributed like many other band members. I think that Dez contributed much more to Prince's first 5 albums than Wendy contributed to the 3 albums that she was around for. Dez was a better guitarist, was a better background singer and was around longer than Wendy. Strange that she is the most vocal

Weird that Wendy is getting the brunt here. Both Wendy and Lisa are making the claim about Mountains...and I don't think they're claiming Prince didn't write too.

Again, Wendy and Lisa are not making a CLAIM. Wendy and Lisa have both been registered as co-writers on that song ever since it was copyrighted back in 85 or 86. This whole debate was basically nonsense, with people debating about whether or not something that has been know for ages was true, just because they didn't even bother to do their homework. Next thing we'll be debating whether the Earth is at the center of the universe (sigh)...

PennyPurple said:

JudasLChrist said:

They only gave their entire lives to Prince during his golden period, and his sound changed completely when they left. Yeah sure: 'minimal' contribution.

The Rev were only a band that he hired...just like all the other bands that he hired.

Why would Prince want his sound to stay the same? He liked to stay fresh, change things up.

Erm I think they were a lot more than that. Prince met the Rivkin brothers (ie Bobby Z and his brother David Z) around 1976 which was even before he had any contract with Warner, you could say they were his gateway to stardom as David (who was already a prolific sound engineer at Sound 80) helped Prince create his first demo that led to his first record contract with WB... Amongst many things Bobby Z was involved in Bob Dylan's re-recording of Blood on The Tracks... Also, the Revolution rose to international stardom at the same time as Prince did. No other 'hired' band shared that very special early connection the Revolution had with Prince. Wendy and Lisa went on to produce great music including one fantastic album (Wendy and Lisa) which I used to play on a loop when I was younger and which remains one of my favourite albums to date. They also wrote the beautiful 'Water to the Wave'... They are all highly talented people and it is not hard to see why Prince collaborated with them for the most crucial part of his career.