Exactly.

None of them dared to say very much while Prince was alive, they knew he'd call them to the carpet and send them cease and desist letters.

tab32792 said:

Except he played strange relationship hundreds of times since 87, especially from 2002 on so that kill your point. In this bed I scream is one song lol but I’ll let you have that for arguments sake. Prince has bigged up whatever his current band was over the past ones even up until 3rdeyegirl. Your argument is biased seeing as you have an early 80’s bias and that’s cool & fair but passing off opinions as fact is what’s wrong with a lot of fans. Hence why so many of them take what certain protégés as facts without critique If prince wanted later bands to continue to sound like the record or “purple music” as you call it, not only would he get stale fast as a live act, he would’ve kept the same band but instead like miles Davis he constantly changed musicians for new ideas & feels. They played what prince wanted them to play and how. Wanting a musician to stay the same says more about you than it does him; also a quote & a fact from Prince himself Side bar: Wendy on rhythm guitar could not hold a candle to Miko. OldFriends4Sale said:

Again Penny, that's not true, you can easily find the information on the org and any other sites

What Wendy said here is not something new or something since Prince passed.

how many yrs later and you have not past Prince 101 yet? lol

PennyPurple said:

Exactly.

None of them dared to say very much while Prince was alive, they knew he'd call them to the carpet and send them cease and desist letters.

tab32792 said:

Except he played strange relationship hundreds of times since 87, especially from 2002 on so that kill your point. In this bed I scream is one song lol but I’ll let you have that for arguments sake. Prince has bigged up whatever his current band was over the past ones even up until 3rdeyegirl. Your argument is biased seeing as you have an early 80’s bias and that’s cool & fair but passing off opinions as fact is what’s wrong with a lot of fans. Hence why so many of them take what certain protégés as facts without critique If prince wanted later bands to continue to sound like the record or “purple music” as you call it, not only would he get stale fast as a live act, he would’ve kept the same band but instead like miles Davis he constantly changed musicians for new ideas & feels. They played what prince wanted them to play and how. Wanting a musician to stay the same says more about you than it does him; also a quote & a fact from Prince himself Side bar: Wendy on rhythm guitar could not hold a candle to Miko.

All the tiny minds fighting over who is better, Wendy or Miko, while i'm here with both of them in the band. That's right folks, you can like both. Music is not a competition.

[Edited 6/23/20 9:08am]

jaawwnn said:

All the tiny minds fighting over who is better, Wendy or Miko, while i'm here with both of them in the band. That's right folks, you can like both. Music is not a competition.

[Edited 6/23/20 9:08am]

I only saw one person actually bring up a Miko vs Wendy thing out of 17 pages.

and I love them both too

jaawwnn said:

All the tiny minds fighting over who is better, Wendy or Miko, while i'm here with both of them in the band. That's right folks, you can like both. Music is not a competition.

[Edited 6/23/20 9:08am]

YES! This right here. This thread is cracking me up! You guys are too much sometimes

Poplife88 said:

jaawwnn said:

All the tiny minds fighting over who is better, Wendy or Miko, while i'm here with both of them in the band. That's right folks, you can like both. Music is not a competition.

[Edited 6/23/20 9:08am]

YES! This right here. This thread is cracking me up! You guys are too much sometimes

have I missed it? I thought I was read up on the thread, what pages?

jaawwnn said:

All the tiny minds fighting over who is better, Wendy or Miko, while i'm here with both of them in the band. That's right folks, you can like both. Music is not a competition.

[Edited 6/23/20 9:08am]

Miko is a CLASS ACT! I communicated with him when he reached out & I'll never forget his kindness and hospitality.

jaawwnn said:

All the tiny minds fighting over who is better, Wendy or Miko, while i'm here with both of them in the band. That's right folks, you can like both. Music is not a competition.

[Edited 6/23/20 9:08am]

fucking for real. Thanks for posting that. You're right.

What weird arguments people make here sometimes and how strangely defensive and aggressive folks get simply talking about music - at least to me. No wonder our membership has dwindled so much. People "choosing sides" and accusing others of hearing stuff "wrong".

Between discussions like this one has been at times and people like Bart chiming in to shame to any newcomers merely asking simple questions, it's a wonder this place still has breath left in it.

If someone were a newcomer to Prince's catalog and his music, would they really want to stick around here reading some of these threads? I go back to 1982 so I DGAF but I mean damn.

herb4 said:

jaawwnn said:

All the tiny minds fighting over who is better, Wendy or Miko, while i'm here with both of them in the band. That's right folks, you can like both. Music is not a competition.

[Edited 6/23/20 9:08am]

fucking for real. Thanks for posting that. You're right.

What weird arguments people make here sometimes and how strangely defensive and aggressive folks get simply talking about music - at least to me. No wonder our membership has dwindled so much. People "choosing sides" and accusing others of hearing stuff "wrong".

Between discussions like this one has been at times and people like Bart chiming in to shame to any newcomers merely asking simple questions, it's a wonder this place still has breath left in it.

If someone were a newcomer to Prince's catalog and his music, would they really want to stick around here reading some of these threads? I go back to 1982 so I DGAF but I mean damn.

It happens in FB groups too, and some of the anti-associates and anti-wives stuff is worse in other places

There is not a single reason to doubt Wendy's story, especially with so many confirmed accounts of Prince asking them to finish things for him as well as him liking a piece of music and simply putting lyrics and a melody over it (Jonathan Melvoin). The folks who constantly fall for Prince's self-mythologizing "brand" are pathetic. Prince surrounded himself with musicians who had something to offer. It is fucking KNOWN that Wendy and Lisa both contributed a lot to Prince's music. FYI: finishing something is writing something. Have you heard their solo albums? The first one specifically sounds like a load of good Prince songs (different lyrically, of course), and there isn't much to Mountains. It's a cool vamp and it sounds great, but there's not one single aspect of it aside from the vocals that indicates "only Prince could have done this". As a musician I find it really tiring that non-musician doofuses try to discredit actual musicians on matters of music. Wendy and Lisa always speak highly of Prince's skills. They wrote the music to Mountains. It's a fact. Get over it. You tools know the recording of the song Kiss features no input from Prince other than playing the guitar and doing the vocals and turning off a delay effect on the hihat pattern (which the engineer snuck a little back in behind his back later cuz Prince was wrong), right? One of Prince's biggest hits sounded so badass as a track because of people NOT Prince and working under no instructions from Prince. Get real.

Also, Partyup. Who wrote that? Prince said a lot of thing that weren't true.

OldFriends4Sale said:

herb4 said:

fucking for real. Thanks for posting that. You're right.

What weird arguments people make here sometimes and how strangely defensive and aggressive folks get simply talking about music - at least to me. No wonder our membership has dwindled so much. People "choosing sides" and accusing others of hearing stuff "wrong".

Between discussions like this one has been at times and people like Bart chiming in to shame to any newcomers merely asking simple questions, it's a wonder this place still has breath left in it.

If someone were a newcomer to Prince's catalog and his music, would they really want to stick around here reading some of these threads? I go back to 1982 so I DGAF but I mean damn.

It happens in FB groups too, and some of the anti-associates and anti-wives stuff is worse in other places

I'll take your word for it and that's a shame. I avoid FB and Reddit for the poison they resonate but I guess being Prince's Biggest Defender must have benefits attached to it that I'm not aware of.

A lot of die hards really like choosing up sides and tryng to delude themselves that Prince did everything right and deny that he, at times, could be a bit of an asshole. The concept of viewing him through a selective lens in that way seems...odd to me.

I dig Bowie, the Stones, George Clinton, Led Zep, Sly, Rick James...all sorts of people with blemishes for days but never get defensive when people point out their shortcomings.

steakfinger said:

There is not a single reason to doubt Wendy's story, especially with so many confirmed accounts of Prince asking them to finish things for him as well as him liking a piece of music and simply putting lyrics and a melody over it (Jonathan Melvoin). The folks who constantly fall for Prince's self-mythologizing "brand" are pathetic. Prince surrounded himself with musicians who had something to offer. It is fucking KNOWN that Wendy and Lisa both contributed a lot to Prince's music. FYI: finishing something is writing something. Have you heard their solo albums? The first one specifically sounds like a load of good Prince songs (different lyrically, of course), and there isn't much to Mountains. It's a cool vamp and it sounds great, but there's not one single aspect of it aside from the vocals that indicates "only Prince could have done this". As a musician I find it really tiring that non-musician doofuses try to discredit actual musicians on matters of music. Wendy and Lisa always speak highly of Prince's skills. They wrote the music to Mountains. It's a fact. Get over it. You tools know the recording of the song Kiss features no input from Prince other than playing the guitar and doing the vocals and turning off a delay effect on the hihat pattern (which the engineer snuck a little back in behind his back later cuz Prince was wrong), right? One of Prince's biggest hits sounded so badass as a track because of people NOT Prince and working under no instructions from Prince. Get real.

*

Prince was an amazing and talented musician, singer, performer, writer and producer. However, one of his most genius abilities was finding and collaborating with other very talented musicians and writers.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Again Penny, that's not true, you can easily find the information on the org and any other sites

What Wendy said here is not something new or something since Prince passed.

how many yrs later and you have not past Prince 101 yet? lol

PennyPurple said:

Exactly.

None of them dared to say very much while Prince was alive, they knew he'd call them to the carpet and send them cease and desist letters.

EXACTLY OF4S!!! I often laugh at so many of these BS comments. So laughable based on what we already know as fact, and also because Prince continued to perform with Wendy, Lisa and others throughout his career. He also remained dear friends with them. He literally called out both Wendy and Lisa during his first PP P&M show, stating that he used to have them go into the studio "to see what they could come up with..." and he proceeded to state that Lisa came up with the beloved first chords to Raspberry Beret - she actually recently stated that she doesn't remember it, but Prince certainly did.

*

Always laughable how some "fans" try to downplay and/or criticize Prince's band members. The fact that he would never have invited them to join his band if they weren't really talented players is "Prince 101".

violetcrush said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Again Penny, that's not true, you can easily find the information on the org and any other sites

What Wendy said here is not something new or something since Prince passed.

how many yrs later and you have not past Prince 101 yet? lol

EXACTLY OF4S!!! I often laugh at so many of these BS comments. So laughable based on what we already know as fact, and also because Prince continued to perform with Wendy, Lisa and others throughout his career. He also remained dear friends with them. He literally called out both Wendy and Lisa during his first PP P&M show, stating that he used to have them go into the studio "to see what they could come up with..." and he proceeded to state that Lisa came up with the beloved first chords to Raspberry Beret - she actually recently stated that she doesn't remember it, but Prince certainly did.

*

Always laughable how some "fans" try to downplay and/or criticize Prince's band members. The fact that he would never have invited them to join his band if they weren't really talented players is "Prince 101".

Actually Violet, Prince 101 is an inside joke between OF4$, and I, that we have razzed each other about for several years now.

PennyPurple said:

violetcrush said:

EXACTLY OF4S!!! I often laugh at so many of these BS comments. So laughable based on what we already know as fact, and also because Prince continued to perform with Wendy, Lisa and others throughout his career. He also remained dear friends with them. He literally called out both Wendy and Lisa during his first PP P&M show, stating that he used to have them go into the studio "to see what they could come up with..." and he proceeded to state that Lisa came up with the beloved first chords to Raspberry Beret - she actually recently stated that she doesn't remember it, but Prince certainly did.

*

Always laughable how some "fans" try to downplay and/or criticize Prince's band members. The fact that he would never have invited them to join his band if they weren't really talented players is "Prince 101".

Actually Violet, Prince 101 is an inside joke between OF4$, and I, that we have razzed each other about for several years now.

Well, great, but the term "101" in front of any name is far from private - it's been around forever. So, "Prince 101" can be an inside joke or a general term for basic Prince school.

the main reason the quality of his output changed from the 1980s was the same reason with almost all writers ..they get old..they have less hunger..they have used most of the good ideas they have stockpiled..they have lost the pulse of the world outside. Prince was no different in essence than McCartney or Bowie. All did good work after their creative peak, and all had numerous good records and commercial success. However their period of being in sync with culture had passed. Prince didnt matter much in the 90s, and I speak as someone was saw him numerous times in that period and brought everything. He was certainly capable of writing interesting music ..as in the Rainbow Children ..but the fire only burns for so long.

His most interesting period to my ears was the time in question and this was the time he was most collaborative. Mountains was one of the pieces. If you want to hear what W and L contibuted ..listen to their first LP..its good..its missing Prince though. The textures are there. The drum programming is a little boring ..the suspended chords are there ..the hooks arent as strong.

I always thought Purple Rain ..good as it was .to be basically smart simple pop writing. Many of the songs are basic blues structures. Compare that to something like Power Fantastic. Its a different level

Its a shame Dream Factory was never finished in the spirit it started , as by the final config he had already added several of the solo performances that would end up in SOTT.

So why?

Well Prince was not a natural colloborater.. a point bourne out by his production work for others. He would accept contributions but basically it was his show. His production for others was fine as long as you wanted a Prince record sung by someone else. He actively avoided situations where he wasnt in control. Probably the Clare Fisher model was perfect for him. Its not really colloration though. Wendy and Lisa were getting tapes and finishing things, in some cases independent of him. Their contribution to his sound at the time probably goes beyond what got released. His music after the Revolution disbanded was less interesting and nuanced. But thats time

PennyPurple said:

violetcrush said:

EXACTLY OF4S!!! I often laugh at so many of these BS comments. So laughable based on what we already know as fact, and also because Prince continued to perform with Wendy, Lisa and others throughout his career. He also remained dear friends with them. He literally called out both Wendy and Lisa during his first PP P&M show, stating that he used to have them go into the studio "to see what they could come up with..." and he proceeded to state that Lisa came up with the beloved first chords to Raspberry Beret - she actually recently stated that she doesn't remember it, but Prince certainly did.

*

Always laughable how some "fans" try to downplay and/or criticize Prince's band members. The fact that he would never have invited them to join his band if they weren't really talented players is "Prince 101".

Actually Violet, Prince 101 is an inside joke between OF4$, and I, that we have razzed each other about for several years now.

yeah lol

ERIC LEEDS:

Those were the circumstances that were more intriguing to me, because it was matter of us trying to get into each other's heads. He had that relationship with other people, Sheila E particularly and of course Wendy and Lisa. From a conceptual basis, Wendy and Lisa were the two musicians in any of his bands who were able to tap into him on some subliminal level - they really did have a musical relationship that was closer than with anyone that he worked with.

My relationship was a little bit more from a player's standpoint. Because of the tremendous drummer and percussionist that Sheila is, [it meant] that relationship was very important. Some of the more interesting and more enjoyable music from my point of view was when Sheila, Prince, Wendy and Lisa and I would just go into the studio and just jam. I've got quite a few tapes of sessions like that. Purely ad lib, instrumental sessions, where we'd go in and just make a lot of music. None of it was going to get released; it was for our own enjoyment. Wendy and Lisa don't really come from a jazz background [but] they shared in the ability to be very spontaneous. Our ability to go in and spontaneously play some music and at the end of an hour come out with some music that at least we could say has some kind of musical validity and continuity. It may not have the harmonic sophistication of a straight-up jazz band, but the ethic was very similar. When Prince wanted to be spontaneous, he could be very spontaneous!

OldFriends4Sale said:

ERIC LEEDS:

Those were the circumstances that were more intriguing to me, because it was matter of us trying to get into each other's heads. He had that relationship with other people, Sheila E particularly and of course Wendy and Lisa. From a conceptual basis, Wendy and Lisa were the two musicians in any of his bands who were able to tap into him on some subliminal level - they really did have a musical relationship that was closer than with anyone that he worked with.

My relationship was a little bit more from a player's standpoint. Because of the tremendous drummer and percussionist that Sheila is, [it meant] that relationship was very important. Some of the more interesting and more enjoyable music from my point of view was when Sheila, Prince, Wendy and Lisa and I would just go into the studio and just jam. I've got quite a few tapes of sessions like that. Purely ad lib, instrumental sessions, where we'd go in and just make a lot of music. None of it was going to get released; it was for our own enjoyment. Wendy and Lisa don't really come from a jazz background [but] they shared in the ability to be very spontaneous. Our ability to go in and spontaneously play some music and at the end of an hour come out with some music that at least we could say has some kind of musical validity and continuity. It may not have the harmonic sophistication of a straight-up jazz band, but the ethic was very similar. When Prince wanted to be spontaneous, he could be very spontaneous!

Very cool. Thanks for sharing.

SirPussalot said:

the main reason the quality of his output changed from the 1980s was the same reason with almost all writers ..they get old..they have less hunger..they have used most of the good ideas they have stockpiled..they have lost the pulse of the world outside. Prince was no different in essence than McCartney or Bowie. All did good work after their creative peak, and all had numerous good records and commercial success. However their period of being in sync with culture had passed. Prince didnt matter much in the 90s, and I speak as someone was saw him numerous times in that period and brought everything. He was certainly capable of writing interesting music ..as in the Rainbow Children ..but the fire only burns for so long.

His most interesting period to my ears was the time in question and this was the time he was most collaborative. Mountains was one of the pieces. If you want to hear what W and L contibuted ..listen to their first LP..its good..its missing Prince though. The textures are there. The drum programming is a little boring ..the suspended chords are there ..the hooks arent as strong.

I always thought Purple Rain ..good as it was .to be basically smart simple pop writing. Many of the songs are basic blues structures. Compare that to something like Power Fantastic. Its a different level

Its a shame Dream Factory was never finished in the spirit it started , as by the final config he had already added several of the solo performances that would end up in SOTT.

So why?

Well Prince was not a natural colloborater.. a point bourne out by his production work for others. He would accept contributions but basically it was his show. His production for others was fine as long as you wanted a Prince record sung by someone else. He actively avoided situations where he wasnt in control. Probably the Clare Fisher model was perfect for him. Its not really colloration though. Wendy and Lisa were getting tapes and finishing things, in some cases independent of him. Their contribution to his sound at the time probably goes beyond what got released. His music after the Revolution disbanded was less interesting and nuanced. But thats time

This is kind of true, but I'd argue that a TON of his 90's output (not all of it) is rock solid and some of it is better an more sophisticated than the earlier work. It just got harder to find as he battled with releasing it. My "Best of 90's" stacks up fine next to the earlier stuff.

I also think (and don't hate on me) that a lot of what you touched on has to with..well...sex, basically.

Art, passion, rock and roll, energy, music in general...so much of it is sexually charged in nature and all that peaks in a person's 20's when they're totally invincible. Prince said "music is for the young" during his later days and I think this sort of touches on it.

But I'm WAY off topic here.

herb4 said:

SirPussalot said:

the main reason the quality of his output changed from the 1980s was the same reason with almost all writers ..they get old..they have less hunger..they have used most of the good ideas they have stockpiled..they have lost the pulse of the world outside. Prince was no different in essence than McCartney or Bowie. All did good work after their creative peak, and all had numerous good records and commercial success. However their period of being in sync with culture had passed. Prince didnt matter much in the 90s, and I speak as someone was saw him numerous times in that period and brought everything. He was certainly capable of writing interesting music ..as in the Rainbow Children ..but the fire only burns for so long.

His most interesting period to my ears was the time in question and this was the time he was most collaborative. Mountains was one of the pieces. If you want to hear what W and L contibuted ..listen to their first LP..its good..its missing Prince though. The textures are there. The drum programming is a little boring ..the suspended chords are there ..the hooks arent as strong.

I always thought Purple Rain ..good as it was .to be basically smart simple pop writing. Many of the songs are basic blues structures. Compare that to something like Power Fantastic. Its a different level

Its a shame Dream Factory was never finished in the spirit it started , as by the final config he had already added several of the solo performances that would end up in SOTT.

So why?

Well Prince was not a natural colloborater.. a point bourne out by his production work for others. He would accept contributions but basically it was his show. His production for others was fine as long as you wanted a Prince record sung by someone else. He actively avoided situations where he wasnt in control. Probably the Clare Fisher model was perfect for him. Its not really colloration though. Wendy and Lisa were getting tapes and finishing things, in some cases independent of him. Their contribution to his sound at the time probably goes beyond what got released. His music after the Revolution disbanded was less interesting and nuanced. But thats time

This is kind of true, but I'd argue that a TON of his 90's output (not all of it) is rock solid and some of it is better an more sophisticated than the earlier work. It just got harder to find as he battled with releasing it. My "Best of 90's" stacks up fine next to the earlier stuff.

I also think (and don't hate on me) that a lot of what you touched on has to with..well...sex, basically.

Art, passion, rock and roll, energy, music in general...so much of it is sexually charged in nature and all that peaks in a person's 20's when they're totally invincible. Prince said "music is for the young" during his later days and I think this sort of touches on it.

But I'm WAY off topic here.

LOL Welllllll now, some people peak sexually in their 20s some in their 30's I really think it depends on the man. My sex drive into my 40s is more intense than in my 20's

.

But if we look at how the music got really melodic-less in 88ish 89 -90 I think it has more to do with the energy of people around him.
.
By 88 the 'Hollywood' Prince was in full form. People who came to the camp/band were coming to the man who was a superstar, not the man who proceeded it. the majority of people who were in his camp pre 88 somehow knew him before the fame really hit of Purple Rain and also like he said in a 98 interview the people he had back then he saw as his community ie (family) I mean I looked it over the people that were in his band, protege bands, camp either were all related, knew each other as kids/teens etc in a huge way. His dad was a part of the camp and family was around a bit more I mean think: Matt Fink knew Bobby Z David Z (and Bobby's wife was in the camp as an assistant) Andre Cymone, Wendy & Lisa since childhood, along with David Coleman, Jonathon Melvoin and Susannah Melvoin, their father Melvoin was regularly around, BrownMark knew a lot of the guys from the Time and had a band that would battle them when they were Flyte Tyme, I forget who but he also had a family member around, and also Mazarati, Tony Christian(Mazarati) was friends with Prince and in the movie Purple Rain, Alan Leed and Eric Leeds + Atlanta Bliss, Sheila E, he met in 80 I think, her brother Juan Escovedo, she went to high school with Mico Weaver, was friends or knew most of the people who were in her band. Jerome and Terry are brothers, and they were Flyte Tyme, Jill Jones and her uncle Earl Jones Prince's best hair stylist, assistants photographers stage lighting -Brenda Bennett(who helped Prince with his clothes since 1980) married to Prince's best stage lighter Leroy Bennett, Susan Moonsie and Kim Upsher friends with Prince since High School and the list I could go on. After 87 the majority of this was gone from the inner Prince camp part of Miko leaving had more to do with him not connecting with the new NPG members. Even he said he felt they were there more because of Prince's status. By 91 I think everyone but Levi was gone, maybe Alan?

OldFriends4Sale said:

ERIC LEEDS:

Those were the circumstances that were more intriguing to me, because it was matter of us trying to get into each other's heads. He had that relationship with other people, Sheila E particularly and of course Wendy and Lisa. From a conceptual basis, Wendy and Lisa were the two musicians in any of his bands who were able to tap into him on some subliminal level - they really did have a musical relationship that was closer than with anyone that he worked with.

My relationship was a little bit more from a player's standpoint. Because of the tremendous drummer and percussionist that Sheila is, [it meant] that relationship was very important. Some of the more interesting and more enjoyable music from my point of view was when Sheila, Prince, Wendy and Lisa and I would just go into the studio and just jam. I've got quite a few tapes of sessions like that. Purely ad lib, instrumental sessions, where we'd go in and just make a lot of music. None of it was going to get released; it was for our own enjoyment. Wendy and Lisa don't really come from a jazz background [but] they shared in the ability to be very spontaneous. Our ability to go in and spontaneously play some music and at the end of an hour come out with some music that at least we could say has some kind of musical validity and continuity. It may not have the harmonic sophistication of a straight-up jazz band, but the ethic was very similar. When Prince wanted to be spontaneous, he could be very spontaneous!

NICE!!! Well, there you go. Thanks to Eric Leeds for this clarity. This is also what Wendy and Lisa have been stating for years. All of the endless jam sessions, and also Prince giving the two of them studio time to come up with their own music.

*

So, Jill Jones' comment that "The Revolution were just a "milli vanilli" band" seems to be far from the truth. I already knew this, but many newer/younger Prince fans may not, and it's a shame that she would make those allegations at this point.

*

Also a shame that long term Prince fans still try to devalue or deny Wendy and Lisa's contributions to Prince's music, especially when Prince himself had acknowledged their talent on several occasions throughout his life - as recently as his P&M shows.

SirPussalot said:

the main reason the quality of his output changed from the 1980s was the same reason with almost all writers ..they get old..they have less hunger..they have used most of the good ideas they have stockpiled..they have lost the pulse of the world outside. Prince was no different in essence than McCartney or Bowie. All did good work after their creative peak, and all had numerous good records and commercial success. However their period of being in sync with culture had passed. Prince didnt matter much in the 90s, and I speak as someone was saw him numerous times in that period and brought everything. He was certainly capable of writing interesting music ..as in the Rainbow Children ..but the fire only burns for so long.

His most interesting period to my ears was the time in question and this was the time he was most collaborative. Mountains was one of the pieces. If you want to hear what W and L contibuted ..listen to their first LP..its good..its missing Prince though. The textures are there. The drum programming is a little boring ..the suspended chords are there ..the hooks arent as strong.

I always thought Purple Rain ..good as it was .to be basically smart simple pop writing. Many of the songs are basic blues structures. Compare that to something like Power Fantastic. Its a different level

Its a shame Dream Factory was never finished in the spirit it started , as by the final config he had already added several of the solo performances that would end up in SOTT.

So why?

Well Prince was not a natural colloborater.. a point bourne out by his production work for others. He would accept contributions but basically it was his show. His production for others was fine as long as you wanted a Prince record sung by someone else. He actively avoided situations where he wasnt in control. Probably the Clare Fisher model was perfect for him. Its not really colloration though. Wendy and Lisa were getting tapes and finishing things, in some cases independent of him. Their contribution to his sound at the time probably goes beyond what got released. His music after the Revolution disbanded was less interesting and nuanced. But thats time

Agree with many of your points here. I think it's been stated that, during the 80's, Prince was creating/inventing the newer pop sound and image. As Herb stated, some of that was tied to being young, more sexual, and just living a life filled with muses and young energy. He also had great players who helped him realize his vision. However, duirng the 90's, he began "chasing" or trying to keep up with the major musical style changes that did not come from him. Rap, hiphop, club/rave music....not his wheelhouse, and he was losing his wider fan base. Then the fight with WB/name change just exacerbated the issues with his music.

*

I think we see some of his best collaborations with The Revolution in the '84-'86 period. I agree, it is such a shame that the Dream Factory/CB sessions were not released as initially intended. SOTT is fantastic, but Prince removed most of Wendy and Lisa's contributions and he edited or removed songs that included their heavy input.

herb4 said:

SirPussalot said:

the main reason the quality of his output changed from the 1980s was the same reason with almost all writers ..they get old..they have less hunger..they have used most of the good ideas they have stockpiled..they have lost the pulse of the world outside. Prince was no different in essence than McCartney or Bowie. All did good work after their creative peak, and all had numerous good records and commercial success. However their period of being in sync with culture had passed. Prince didnt matter much in the 90s, and I speak as someone was saw him numerous times in that period and brought everything. He was certainly capable of writing interesting music ..as in the Rainbow Children ..but the fire only burns for so long.

His most interesting period to my ears was the time in question and this was the time he was most collaborative. Mountains was one of the pieces. If you want to hear what W and L contibuted ..listen to their first LP..its good..its missing Prince though. The textures are there. The drum programming is a little boring ..the suspended chords are there ..the hooks arent as strong.

I always thought Purple Rain ..good as it was .to be basically smart simple pop writing. Many of the songs are basic blues structures. Compare that to something like Power Fantastic. Its a different level

Its a shame Dream Factory was never finished in the spirit it started , as by the final config he had already added several of the solo performances that would end up in SOTT.

So why?

Well Prince was not a natural colloborater.. a point bourne out by his production work for others. He would accept contributions but basically it was his show. His production for others was fine as long as you wanted a Prince record sung by someone else. He actively avoided situations where he wasnt in control. Probably the Clare Fisher model was perfect for him. Its not really colloration though. Wendy and Lisa were getting tapes and finishing things, in some cases independent of him. Their contribution to his sound at the time probably goes beyond what got released. His music after the Revolution disbanded was less interesting and nuanced. But thats time

This is kind of true, but I'd argue that a TON of his 90's output (not all of it) is rock solid and some of it is better an more sophisticated than the earlier work. It just got harder to find as he battled with releasing it. My "Best of 90's" stacks up fine next to the earlier stuff.

I also think (and don't hate on me) that a lot of what you touched on has to with..well...sex, basically.

Art, passion, rock and roll, energy, music in general...so much of it is sexually charged in nature and all that peaks in a person's 20's when they're totally invincible. Prince said "music is for the young" during his later days and I think this sort of touches on it.

But I'm WAY off topic here.

oh yh .. he was too good not to produce good music.. also i had changed ..so even if his 90s stuff was as intersting doubt i would evaluate it as such....wouldnt like to comment on the legendary purple rock

Wendy and Lisa wrote everything. Prince wrote everything. The rest of the Revolution wrote everything. Prince fans wrote everything. Did i miss anyone out?

[Edited 7/7/20 0:18am]

Morris Day has had as many solo hits as Wendy & Lisa. i.e. none. (Fishnet?? Gimme a break, didn't even make the top 20. No one knows it. it has scraped 100 thousand plays on Spotify, Waterfall by Wendy & Lisa has over a million)

Jesse Johnson is unknown outside of Prince obsessives. His very, very minor hits are long forgotten.

Andre Cymone has one album of importance to his name and it's by Jody Watley, and that's basically a musical Prince clone producing a musical Madonna clone, right??


Now, personally I think all the above have a load of great albums but by your standards of success all they wrote was disposable...a couple listens, maybe a nice idea here and there but no songs that stuck, or had any lasting replay value.

[Edited 7/7/20 6:07am]

If you want to go after Wendy & Lisa say that they're LA rich kids who were always going to have a career in HollyWood because they have endless connections. Their success as composers for TV and film was pretty much pre-ordained, it's only their divergence into pop music with Prince and then solo that actually stands out.

jaawwnn said: