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Reply #450 posted 06/19/20 12:16am

mediumdry

herb4 said:

Maybe he surrounded himself with those that he knew that were below his level, which DOES seem like something he would do, but he usually wanted people who could fucking PLAY (at a minimum) working with him

.

It always seemed to me that he wanted the best players he could get (and if they weren't up to that level yet, working them tirelessly would get them there), but most importantly, they had to be able to check their ego at the door. It was *his* party/band/music and you could bring as much as you could/wanted, as long as you kept your ego in check. Most problems with band members and others around him came when they said something for themselves.

.

Later in his career, his star was such that he could get more accomplished players, session players and the like. It made his music a bit more bland, but with a higher level of musicianship. Either way, there was always a tradeoff. The fact that he kept playing most things himself in the studio (not always though) shows that he didn't always want to make that tradeoff though.

Paisley Park is in your heart - Love Is Here!
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Reply #451 posted 06/19/20 5:21am

ChocolateBox31
21

avatar

RJOrion said:

sexton said:


The exact argument earlier in the thread was Wendy and Lisa's solo output should be discounted because they had no hits.

i was the one who mentioned their lack of any hit songs or even charted songs as just one part of the many things i said about them (or their online militia)...the bottom line FOR ME, is that Wendy & Lisa's music without Prince is/was trash, and that Wendy has delusions of grandeur....and there is no metric available (sales, awards or opinions) that can disprove that...and im clearly not the only one who feels that way.

popcorn

"4 all of us, life is death without adventure,& adventure only comes 2 those who are willing 2 b daring & take chances."prince 1985
"eye feel that we're on the brink of something. It is going 2 B strict and wild and pretty" prince 1986
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Reply #452 posted 06/19/20 10:11am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

I guess it depends ... youre arguement then should never be the same as far as later Prince albums
.
You know the 'well there is always a gem or two on a Prince album' arguement

.

I'm a huge jazz fan, Jazz music is never 'hits' big hits etc but it is great music. Most of my fav Prince songs are obscure ones, even on the big hit maker albums
.
Of course you're not wanting to see anything,
.
Naw he diminished things they did because of the emotional connection....
He did erase their contribution of Slow Love... I still prefere the Dream Factory version of Strange Relationship... Do you ever wonder why he almost never performed the song? obvious.
.
Remember he is the same person who dedicated the song In This Bed I Scream to Wendy Lisa and Susannah... that is fact not opinion... in Prince's own words

To these walls I talk
Tellin' 'em what I wasn't strong enough 2 say
To these walls I talk
Tellin' 'em how I cried the day you went away

How did we ever lose communication?
How did we ever lose each other's sound?
Baby, if you wanna, we can fix the situation
Maybe we can stop the rain from coming down

Yeah

In this bed I scream
Lonely nights I lay awake thinking of you
And if I'm cursed with a dream
A thousand times I feel whatever I've put you through

Tell me, how're we gonna put this back together?
How're we gonna think with the same mind?
Knowing all along that life is so much better
Living and loving together all the time

Living and loving

In this bed I, in this bed I, in this bed I scream

In this car I drive
I'm looking for the road that leads back to the...

In this car I drive
I'm looking for the road that leads back to the soul we shared
With my very life
I'd gladly be the body upon the cross we bear (Cross we bear)

How did we ever lose communication? (How did we?)
How did we ever lose each other's sound? (I don't know)
Baby, if you wanna, we can fix the situation
Maybe we can stop the rain from coming down

Maybe we can't, maybe we can
Stop the rain, stop the rain

In this bed I, in this bed I, in this bed I scream
I scream

In this bed I scream

tab32792 said:

Unless there’s other songs on the released album that they’re actually on, enlighten me. Otherwise...I’m not wanting to see anything. It’s a fact not an opinion. Hence the reason he erased majority of their contributions and re did strange relationship OldFriends4Sale said:

Of course you want 2 c it that way... the truth it will always be connected with the energy of the Parade era and Dream Factory/Camille sessions

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER


What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your milli
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Reply #453 posted 06/19/20 10:15am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

herb4 said:

JudasLChrist said:

This entire fucking thread full of angst because a band member ACCURATELY portrayed their contribution to a song.

Grow up, ya'll.


Not gonna happen here.

This is why we can't have nice things.

This placeis weird and has only gotten more so since Prince's death tbh

There are FB groups that are worse.

And at least Org members I can actually debate with. There are a lot of Prince FB groups where I'm astonished at how uneducated people are on Prince's legacy. That includes the proteges

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER


What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your milli
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Reply #454 posted 06/19/20 4:57pm

herb4

avatar

mediumdry said:

herb4 said:

Maybe he surrounded himself with those that he knew that were below his level, which DOES seem like something he would do, but he usually wanted people who could fucking PLAY (at a minimum) working with him

.

It always seemed to me that he wanted the best players he could get (and if they weren't up to that level yet, working them tirelessly would get them there), but most importantly, they had to be able to check their ego at the door. It was *his* party/band/music and you could bring as much as you could/wanted, as long as you kept your ego in check. Most problems with band members and others around him came when they said something for themselves.

.

Later in his career, his star was such that he could get more accomplished players, session players and the like. It made his music a bit more bland, but with a higher level of musicianship. Either way, there was always a tradeoff. The fact that he kept playing most things himself in the studio (not always though) shows that he didn't always want to make that tradeoff though.


This is well put and a good post.

I never thought of it that way but you may have a point. I REALLY liked when he brought in proper drummers who could really POUND like Michael B and John Blackwell...even Sheila E...and the way his overall sound became more organic because of it but there may be something to what you're saying about how his sound became more "bland".


But I dunno. I think it had more depth.

I saw the Purple Rain shows and they left me wanting. Too...synthetic I guess? It was like watching the movie and the MTV videos all over again. I get why he got tired of performing it. I saw Lovesexy 88 and even that felt sort of...I dunno...stiff? Tight? Rote? Reharsed? I never got the feeling back then that his band was bringing anything additional to the table and left the concert feeling that if I came back the next night, I'd see and hear the exact same show.

When I saw The ONA and Musicolgy concerts, they had a level of musicianship that I don't think the Revolution could really touch and I thought his overall sound came off better live and was growing. He could still do guitar and piano solos but when the band jammed the sum total came off better to me.

I can't imagine him pulling off something like The Undertaker CD or The Gold Experience with the Revolution lineup. Or even Diamonds & Pearls. Then again, I can't see that more modern NPG line up capturing the live stuff from Parade, SoTT or even 1999 either so now I'm really confused and your post made me think.

Where would you stick W&L on the Musicology or ONA shows and where would you put Blackwell or Rhonda Smith on the Purple Rain tour? Maceo probably would have fit in anywhere.

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Reply #455 posted 06/19/20 5:25pm

rednblue

I suggested earlier that maybe different threads should be started for some of these topics.

Herb4 is one of my favorite posters : ), there's plenty of good discussion going on...so I'm honestly not trying to wish this discussion away. It's just that we maybe need some different threads for instrumental chops, personality, etc.

As I said in reply #159, "Whatever people may feel/think about Wendy's guitar skills or personality/character, those subjects are not the topic of this "origins of 'Mountains' " thread."

[Edited 6/20/20 6:50am]

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Reply #456 posted 06/19/20 8:00pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

herb4 said:

mediumdry said:

.

It always seemed to me that he wanted the best players he could get (and if they weren't up to that level yet, working them tirelessly would get them there), but most importantly, they had to be able to check their ego at the door. It was *his* party/band/music and you could bring as much as you could/wanted, as long as you kept your ego in check. Most problems with band members and others around him came when they said something for themselves.

.

Later in his career, his star was such that he could get more accomplished players, session players and the like. It made his music a bit more bland, but with a higher level of musicianship. Either way, there was always a tradeoff. The fact that he kept playing most things himself in the studio (not always though) shows that he didn't always want to make that tradeoff though.


This is well put and a good post.

I never thought of it that way but you may have a point. I REALLY liked when he brought in proper drummers who could really POUND like Michael B and John Blackwell...even Sheila E...and the way his overall sound became more organic because of it but there may be something to what you're saying about how his sound became more "bland".


But I dunno. I think it had more depth.

I saw the Purple Rain shows and they left me wanting. Too...synthetic I guess? It was like watching the movie and the MTV videos all over again. I get why he got tired of performing it. I saw Lovesexy 88 and even that felt sort of...I dunno...stiff? Tight? Rote? Reharsed? I never got the feeling back then that his band was bringing anything additional to the table and left the concert feeling that if I came back the next night, I'd see and hear the exact same show.

When I saw The ONA and Musicolgy concerts, they had a level of musicianship that I don't think the Revolution could really touch and I thought his overall sound came off better live and was growing. He could still do guitar and piano solos but when the band jammed the sum total came off better to me.

I can't imagine him pulling off something like The Undertaker CD or The Gold Experience with the Revolution lineup. Or even Diamonds & Pearls. Then again, I can't see that more modern NPG line up capturing the live stuff from Parade, SoTT or even 1999 either so now I'm really confused and your post made me think.

Where would you stick W&L on the Musicology or ONA shows and where would you put Blackwell or Rhonda Smith on the Purple Rain tour? Maceo probably would have fit in anywhere.




herb4 though, even this is all way off topic. I mean Mountains is from a composition by Wendy & Lisa Coleman, comparing the Revolution in 1984 to people in the ONA band in 2001 is not really balanced.

I mean was Prince playing better in 2001 vs 1984? Yes, but the raw 'unpolished' feel is what made the early days so alive. If the Revolution continued as Prince's band in 2001, there is no doubt their musicianship and skill would be on a different level compared to 1980 or 1984.

But one thing that the Revolution, the noituloveR etc had that later bands never did In my audio opinion was the replication of "Purple Music". And it's the way Prince wanted it back then, it had nothing to do with people you consider better drummers coming in. Blackwell is an awesome drummer, but I've also heard his style in all the many African-American 'church' musical sessions I've heard. It wasn't 'original' in any way to my ears.

But what Prince had Bobby Z doing was what Prince wanted to capture and solidify 'his' sound, that he was developing. That sound that everyone wanted to copy in the 80s. When you read the level of attention and discipline Bobby Z had to hold to get what Prince wanted, is serious respect. The Parade tours went back to more organice feels, but Prince still wanted the incorporating of the electric drums(which was a regular thing in the 80s all around).

Also for your last piece, Wendy (and Lisa) were performing more with Prince during the Musicology/3121 period. I haven't heard the chords and sound Lisa Coleman brought,in the NPG, since she left. And remember it was Prince that said in Wendy played rhythm guitar with him better than anyone, which is why he had her on the Tavis Smiley show during the Musicology period. "She plays acoustic guitar with me better than almost anyone. The opportunity came up and her name was the first to come to mind. I'm looking for things to juice me, too."
.
The 2006 Brit Award show was the closest he came to having an all female band.
And when asked in 1998 what would his dream band be lined as Wendy Lisa & Sheila were named, not to mention in the hidden messages in the One video Wendy Lisa Susannah Cat Sheila and Rhonda were named..

.
But for me the thing that made the earlier band(s)1978-1985/86 more 'original' was that they were all still green in my opinion, not tainted by having performed other peoples sounds and styles. So overall they were a blank palet. Including the Time/the Family/Vanity 6 etc
.
Sheila E had performed other peoples sounds, but of course at Prince's insistance, made she she and the band learned his sound. I remember a quote from Sheila E says she and her musicians sorta studied Prince's albums to get the style in them. I think this was what led up to the 2 Sexy single. But when allowed to do her thing, a lot of times Sheila E and band fell back into a mainstream popular sound of the day. Her 3rd album shows that well. The Prince produced songs vs the Sheila E produced songs.
.
People who came later via the NPG were already influenced by other artists styles. Many who were literally sessions musicians for a period. Rhonda is a great bassists, but I can pick up her influences easily and jazz is her world, which is where she went back to after Prince. Vs BrownMark and Andre and Terry who were infused by Minneapolis and Prince's style of music. ie Purple Music.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER


What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your milli
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Reply #457 posted 06/19/20 8:02pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

rednblue said:

I suggested earlier that maybe different threads should be started for some of these topics.

Herb4 is one of my favorite posters : ), there's plenty of good discussion going on...so I'm honestly not trying to wish this discussion away. It's just that we maybe need some different threads for musicianship, personality, etc.

As I said in reply #159, "Whatever people may feel/think about Wendy's guitar skills or personality/character, those subjects are not the topic of this "origins of 'Mountains' " thread."

Yes, it is interesting how Wendy was attacked her for stating a simple fact of life and her career. As if any of us would not have done the same. Artists, Photographers, Engineers and Musicians...

Didn't Rosie Gaines actually go further than Wendy about what she did? and what she wasn't credited or paid for?

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER


What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your milli
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Reply #458 posted 06/19/20 9:59pm

herb4

avatar

rednblue said:

I suggested earlier that maybe different threads should be started for some of these topics.

Herb4 is one of my favorite posters : ), there's plenty of good discussion going on...so I'm honestly not trying to wish this discussion away. It's just that we maybe need some different threads for musicianship, personality, etc.

As I said in reply #159, "Whatever people may feel/think about Wendy's guitar skills or personality/character, those subjects are not the topic of this "origins of 'Mountains' " thread."


Well, shucks. That's nice of you to say. I appreciate that. Can always use a boost and certainly in these hard times.

What sort of thread did u have in mind? It's quite difficult to categorize these things and especially hard to whip up something truly orginal that generates intersting discussion.

To drag us slighty back on topic, W&L's influence on this song is quite obvious to anyone with the right sort of ears and that has listened to Prince's music. The song is rather lush and, if we're gonna argue their influence on it, I'd challenge anyone here to post a song that sounds much like it after he broke up that band.

"I Wish U Heaven" perhaps comes to mind but I'm hard pressed to come up with anything else.


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Reply #459 posted 06/19/20 10:10pm

ForceofNature

RJOrion said:

that Wendy has delusions of grandeur....and there is no metric available (sales, awards or opinions) that can disprove that...and im clearly not the only one who feels that way.

But to be fair, I think that it isn't about "disproving" that Wendy has delusions of grandeur but rather the burden of proof on proving her said delusions would be the key to it all. I just think that sometimes people (not talking anyone specifically here just anyone who fits this description) take what W&L say and overly sensitive and know-it-all about it pretending like they know about the Revolution era Prince albums more than the people who were actually in the band


I just haven't seen a single comment from Wendy or Lisa that wasn't simply their truthful point of view

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Reply #460 posted 06/19/20 10:10pm

herb4

avatar

OldFriends4Sale said:

herb4 said:


This is well put and a good post.

I never thought of it that way but you may have a point. I REALLY liked when he brought in proper drummers who could really POUND like Michael B and John Blackwell...even Sheila E...and the way his overall sound became more organic because of it but there may be something to what you're saying about how his sound became more "bland".


But I dunno. I think it had more depth.

I saw the Purple Rain shows and they left me wanting. Too...synthetic I guess? It was like watching the movie and the MTV videos all over again. I get why he got tired of performing it. I saw Lovesexy 88 and even that felt sort of...I dunno...stiff? Tight? Rote? Reharsed? I never got the feeling back then that his band was bringing anything additional to the table and left the concert feeling that if I came back the next night, I'd see and hear the exact same show.

When I saw The ONA and Musicolgy concerts, they had a level of musicianship that I don't think the Revolution could really touch and I thought his overall sound came off better live and was growing. He could still do guitar and piano solos but when the band jammed the sum total came off better to me.

I can't imagine him pulling off something like The Undertaker CD or The Gold Experience with the Revolution lineup. Or even Diamonds & Pearls. Then again, I can't see that more modern NPG line up capturing the live stuff from Parade, SoTT or even 1999 either so now I'm really confused and your post made me think.

Where would you stick W&L on the Musicology or ONA shows and where would you put Blackwell or Rhonda Smith on the Purple Rain tour? Maceo probably would have fit in anywhere.

herb4 though, even this is all way off topic. I mean Mountains is from a composition by Wendy & Lisa Coleman, comparing the Revolution in 1984 to people in the ONA band is not really balanced.

I mean was Prince playing better in 2001 vs 1984? Yes, but the raw 'unpolished' feel is what made the early days so alive. If the Revolution continued as Prince's band in 2001, there is no doubt their musicianship and skill would be on a different level compared to 1980 or 1984.

But one thing that the Revolution, the noituloveR etc had that later bands never did In my audio opinion was the replication of "Purple Music". And it's the way Prince wanted it back then, it had nothing to do with people you consider better drummers coming in. Blackwell is an awesome drummer, but I've also heard his style in all the many African-American 'church' musical sessions. It was 'original' in any way to my ears. But what Prince had Bobby Z doing was what Prince wanted to capture and solidify 'his' sound, that he was developing. That sound that everyone wanted to copy in the 80s. When you read the level of attention and discipline Bobby Z had to hold to get what Prince wanted, is serious respect. The Parade tours went back to more organice feels, but Prince still wanted the incorporating of the electric drums(which was a regular thing in the 80s all around).

Also for your last piece, Wendy (and Lisa) were performing more with Prince during the Musicology/3121 period. I haven't heard the chords and sound Lisa Coleman brought since she left. And remember it was Prince that said in Wendy played rhythm guitar with him better than anyone, which is why he had her on the Tavis Smiley show during the Musicology period.
.
The 2006 Brit Award show was the closest he came to having an all female band.
And when asked in 1998 what would his dream band be lined as Wendy Lisa & Sheila were named, not to mention in the hidden messages in the One video Wendy Lisa Susannah Cat Sheila and Rhonda were named..

.
But for me the thing that made the earlier band(s)1978-1985/86 more 'original' was that they were all still green in my opinion, not tainted by having performed other peoples sounds and styles. So overall they were a blank palet. Including the Time/the Family/Vanity 6 etc
.
Sheila E had performed other peoples sounds, but of course at Prince's insistance, made she she and the band learned his sound. I remember a quote from Sheila E says she and her musicians sorta studied Prince's albums to get the style in them. I think this was what led up to the 2 Sexy single. But when allowed to do her thing, a lot of times Sheila E and band fell back into a mainstream popular sound of the day. Her 3rd album shows that well. The Prince produced songs vs the Sheila E produced songs.
.
People who came later via the NPG were already influenced by other artists styles. Many who were literally sessions musicians for a period. Rhonda is a great bassists, but I can pick up her influences easily and jazz is her world, which is where she went back to after Prince. Vs BrownMark and Andre and Terry who were infused by Minneapolis and Prince's style of music. ie Purple Music.



Yeah, I get it, and you're right. You raise some good points.

There was a certain rawness to the funk he brought he when he was young, which had certain elemets of punk and was uniquely HIS SOUND back then that gave way to a more polished and slick approach that marked his later stuff. Hard to say what I liked more since I loved it all.

But the drummers he brought in later were fucking MAD and RAW in ways that really added something to his sound, especially live.

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Reply #461 posted 06/19/20 10:12pm

rednblue

OldFriends4Sale said:

rednblue said:

I suggested earlier that maybe different threads should be started for some of these topics.

Herb4 is one of my favorite posters : ), there's plenty of good discussion going on...so I'm honestly not trying to wish this discussion away. It's just that we maybe need some different threads for instrumental chops, personality, etc.

As I said in reply #159, "Whatever people may feel/think about Wendy's guitar skills or personality/character, those subjects are not the topic of this "origins of 'Mountains' " thread."

Yes, it is interesting how Wendy was attacked her for stating a simple fact of life and her career. As if any of us would not have done the same. Artists, Photographers, Engineers and Musicians...

Didn't Rosie Gaines actually go further than Wendy about what she did? and what she wasn't credited or paid for?


That's a great point about people who made all sorts of professional contributions to the purple world. Also, you remind me that I brought up Rosie's treatment earlier on this thread as an example of character issues.

IMO, there were clearly character issues connected to things Rosie Gaines was driven to do. For example, some band members treated her badly enough that she had to insist that she no longer ride the same bus with them. The whole point I was trying to make is that what I perceive as character issues doesn't speak to song creation/development or instrumental/other performance skills of those around in the early 90s.

____


Yet on this thread about song creation/development, a bunch of people jumped on to air their feelings about Wendy's personality/character, describing her as too loud/egotistical/brash/etc. The thread also got a bunch of early off-topic comments criticizing Wendy's guitar-playing abilities.

It was as if a group of people had strong feelings that made them really want it to be true that what Wendy said about the origins/creation of Mountains was NOT true. But these commenters didn't have the knowledge of what really happened.

So their feelings and wantings then spilled out as off-topic comments about personality/character and guitar-playing chops.


_____


I've gone down the same path at times. But some of the stuff on this thread is so far out...it just seems like people are having trouble coping with their feelings, or else just want to mess with the people hoping to have a discussion with reasonable connection to the topic of the thread.



Just one example from this "Wendy Melvoin on the origins of 'Mountains'" thread:

In post 293, a poster says they don't have issues with Wendy.

Back in post 14, this same poster offers this initial reaction to the thread topic and Wendy's account:

"'...when John and Mattie were about to have their first child together, Me, Lisa, and Susan Rogers told the couple that they should name the boy Prince Rogers Nelson...when Prince heard this, he just fell out of Mattie's womb..'

~ Wendy Melvoin"

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Reply #462 posted 06/19/20 10:20pm

ForceofNature

herb4 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

herb4 though, even this is all way off topic. I mean Mountains is from a composition by Wendy & Lisa Coleman, comparing the Revolution in 1984 to people in the ONA band is not really balanced.

I mean was Prince playing better in 2001 vs 1984? Yes, but the raw 'unpolished' feel is what made the early days so alive. If the Revolution continued as Prince's band in 2001, there is no doubt their musicianship and skill would be on a different level compared to 1980 or 1984.

But one thing that the Revolution, the noituloveR etc had that later bands never did In my audio opinion was the replication of "Purple Music". And it's the way Prince wanted it back then, it had nothing to do with people you consider better drummers coming in. Blackwell is an awesome drummer, but I've also heard his style in all the many African-American 'church' musical sessions. It was 'original' in any way to my ears. But what Prince had Bobby Z doing was what Prince wanted to capture and solidify 'his' sound, that he was developing. That sound that everyone wanted to copy in the 80s. When you read the level of attention and discipline Bobby Z had to hold to get what Prince wanted, is serious respect. The Parade tours went back to more organice feels, but Prince still wanted the incorporating of the electric drums(which was a regular thing in the 80s all around).

Also for your last piece, Wendy (and Lisa) were performing more with Prince during the Musicology/3121 period. I haven't heard the chords and sound Lisa Coleman brought since she left. And remember it was Prince that said in Wendy played rhythm guitar with him better than anyone, which is why he had her on the Tavis Smiley show during the Musicology period.
.
The 2006 Brit Award show was the closest he came to having an all female band.
And when asked in 1998 what would his dream band be lined as Wendy Lisa & Sheila were named, not to mention in the hidden messages in the One video Wendy Lisa Susannah Cat Sheila and Rhonda were named..

.
But for me the thing that made the earlier band(s)1978-1985/86 more 'original' was that they were all still green in my opinion, not tainted by having performed other peoples sounds and styles. So overall they were a blank palet. Including the Time/the Family/Vanity 6 etc
.
Sheila E had performed other peoples sounds, but of course at Prince's insistance, made she she and the band learned his sound. I remember a quote from Sheila E says she and her musicians sorta studied Prince's albums to get the style in them. I think this was what led up to the 2 Sexy single. But when allowed to do her thing, a lot of times Sheila E and band fell back into a mainstream popular sound of the day. Her 3rd album shows that well. The Prince produced songs vs the Sheila E produced songs.
.
People who came later via the NPG were already influenced by other artists styles. Many who were literally sessions musicians for a period. Rhonda is a great bassists, but I can pick up her influences easily and jazz is her world, which is where she went back to after Prince. Vs BrownMark and Andre and Terry who were infused by Minneapolis and Prince's style of music. ie Purple Music.



Yeah, I get it, and you're right. You raise some good points.

There was a certain rawness to the funk he brought he when he was young, which had certain elemets of punk and was uniquely HIS SOUND back then that gave way to a more polished and slick approach that marked his later stuff. Hard to say what I liked more since I loved it all.

But the drummers he brought in later were fucking MAD and RAW in ways that really added something to his sound, especially live.

My own personal theory is that Prince had a vibe and sound back in the day he either had in his head sometimes, or would get in his head after hearing people such as W&L, or really anyone in his bands in the 1980s. Where the attitude, vibe, and overall sounds didn't have to be super refined, but special and unique.

Like the Rolling Stones for example - none of them are virtuosos, but they have their own chemistry and sound that is pure awesomeness when put together

His later bands were all theoretically adept and accomplished on their instrument to the point where there was nothing most of them couldn't play. This allowed Prince to change up all those old songs and keep them fresh since a lot of those older tunes he had been playing for years and years at that point probably would have been simply more exciting for him done differently

I think that having those jazz oriented musicians in his band at the turn of the century especially, gave Prince musical suprises. They could superimpose chord substitutions, play non-diatonic notes in solos, add insane syncopations and all be on the same page, etc. I think they offered Prince the professional versatility that he probably wanted at this later stage of his career

[Edited 6/19/20 22:23pm]

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Reply #463 posted 06/19/20 10:43pm

rednblue

herb4 said:

rednblue said:

I suggested earlier that maybe different threads should be started for some of these topics.

Herb4 is one of my favorite posters : ), there's plenty of good discussion going on...so I'm honestly not trying to wish this discussion away. It's just that we maybe need some different threads for musicianship, personality, etc.

As I said in reply #159, "Whatever people may feel/think about Wendy's guitar skills or personality/character, those subjects are not the topic of this "origins of 'Mountains' " thread."


Well, shucks. That's nice of you to say. I appreciate that. Can always use a boost and certainly in these hard times.

What sort of thread did u have in mind? It's quite difficult to categorize these things and especially hard to whip up something truly orginal that generates intersting discussion.

To drag us slighty back on topic, W&L's influence on this song is quite obvious to anyone with the right sort of ears and that has listened to Prince's music. The song is rather lush and, if we're gonna argue their influence on it, I'd challenge anyone here to post a song that sounds much like it after he broke up that band.

"I Wish U Heaven" perhaps comes to mind but I'm hard pressed to come up with anything else.



Hi! Thanks for the response, and "I Wish U Heaven" is a really good example. I'll see if I'm up to the challenge of finding something else. It does seem like that song vibe would be relatively uncommon later on, but I don't mean that at all in a bad way. There was so much great stuff through all the years, and I loved not knowing what to expect.

Except, of course, that I DID know to expect that I'd really like a lot of the music, as that was what happened with almost every new album, band, etc. I love many songs from late 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's (is that how you say it? lol), and '10s. I'm not a musician, so I can't hear the music with that sophistication. But I do adore many P songs from all "eras."

As far as threads, maybe people who believe that egos are getting out of hand in a detrimental way could start a thread on where they find too much "I/We Da Best!" going on.

Maybe people who want to discuss instrumental chops could ask for opinions on "Who Da Best?" : )

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Reply #464 posted 06/19/20 10:45pm

Vannormal

avatar

OldFriends4Sale said:

herb4 said:


This is well put and a good post.

I never thought of it that way but you may have a point. I REALLY liked when he brought in proper drummers who could really POUND like Michael B and John Blackwell...even Sheila E...and the way his overall sound became more organic because of it but there may be something to what you're saying about how his sound became more "bland".


But I dunno. I think it had more depth.

I saw the Purple Rain shows and they left me wanting. Too...synthetic I guess? It was like watching the movie and the MTV videos all over again. I get why he got tired of performing it. I saw Lovesexy 88 and even that felt sort of...I dunno...stiff? Tight? Rote? Reharsed? I never got the feeling back then that his band was bringing anything additional to the table and left the concert feeling that if I came back the next night, I'd see and hear the exact same show.

When I saw The ONA and Musicolgy concerts, they had a level of musicianship that I don't think the Revolution could really touch and I thought his overall sound came off better live and was growing. He could still do guitar and piano solos but when the band jammed the sum total came off better to me.

I can't imagine him pulling off something like The Undertaker CD or The Gold Experience with the Revolution lineup. Or even Diamonds & Pearls. Then again, I can't see that more modern NPG line up capturing the live stuff from Parade, SoTT or even 1999 either so now I'm really confused and your post made me think.

Where would you stick W&L on the Musicology or ONA shows and where would you put Blackwell or Rhonda Smith on the Purple Rain tour? Maceo probably would have fit in anywhere.

herb4 though, even this is all way off topic. I mean Mountains is from a composition by Wendy & Lisa Coleman, comparing the Revolution in 1984 to people in the ONA band in 2001 is not really balanced.

I mean was Prince playing better in 2001 vs 1984? Yes, but the raw 'unpolished' feel is what made the early days so alive. If the Revolution continued as Prince's band in 2001, there is no doubt their musicianship and skill would be on a different level compared to 1980 or 1984.

But one thing that the Revolution, the noituloveR etc had that later bands never did In my audio opinion was the replication of "Purple Music". And it's the way Prince wanted it back then, it had nothing to do with people you consider better drummers coming in. Blackwell is an awesome drummer, but I've also heard his style in all the many African-American 'church' musical sessions I've heard. It wasn't 'original' in any way to my ears.

But what Prince had Bobby Z doing was what Prince wanted to capture and solidify 'his' sound, that he was developing. That sound that everyone wanted to copy in the 80s. When you read the level of attention and discipline Bobby Z had to hold to get what Prince wanted, is serious respect. The Parade tours went back to more organice feels, but Prince still wanted the incorporating of the electric drums(which was a regular thing in the 80s all around).

Also for your last piece, Wendy (and Lisa) were performing more with Prince during the Musicology/3121 period. I haven't heard the chords and sound Lisa Coleman brought,in the NPG, since she left. And remember it was Prince that said in Wendy played rhythm guitar with him better than anyone, which is why he had her on the Tavis Smiley show during the Musicology period. "She plays acoustic guitar with me better than almost anyone. The opportunity came up and her name was the first to come to mind. I'm looking for things to juice me, too."
.
The 2006 Brit Award show was the closest he came to having an all female band.
And when asked in 1998 what would his dream band be lined as Wendy Lisa & Sheila were named, not to mention in the hidden messages in the One video Wendy Lisa Susannah Cat Sheila and Rhonda were named..

.
But for me the thing that made the earlier band(s)1978-1985/86 more 'original' was that they were all still green in my opinion, not tainted by having performed other peoples sounds and styles. So overall they were a blank palet. Including the Time/the Family/Vanity 6 etc
.
Sheila E had performed other peoples sounds, but of course at Prince's insistance, made she she and the band learned his sound. I remember a quote from Sheila E says she and her musicians sorta studied Prince's albums to get the style in them. I think this was what led up to the 2 Sexy single. But when allowed to do her thing, a lot of times Sheila E and band fell back into a mainstream popular sound of the day. Her 3rd album shows that well. The Prince produced songs vs the Sheila E produced songs.
.
People who came later via the NPG were already influenced by other artists styles. Many who were literally sessions musicians for a period. Rhonda is a great bassists, but I can pick up her influences easily and jazz is her world, which is where she went back to after Prince. Vs BrownMark and Andre and Terry who were infused by Minneapolis and Prince's style of music. ie Purple Music.


-

I absolutely agree with all.

It's exactly what I am trying to say for years.

Thank you for writing what i think (too). wink

And I just want to add this; they were young, fresh, angry, hungry and ambitious for making music, and ready to follow Prince. And vice versa. Just like mostly all young musicians do in the pop and rock field.

(Jazz musicians only grow different from pop and rock musicians. More steady.)

And most important; the comradship/true friendships.

The kind of when being young and unapproachable.

It's a feel in their live performances and togetherness you either get or not.

Perfection is boring. The little mistakes make it human and more 'lively' - IMHO. smile

-

All the musical relationships Prince had after his stardom was accomplished were instantly different.

Yes it started off somehow during the Lovesexy era (which by the way still is one of my favourite eras, but for personaly reasons, when life came upon me).

He was in a position where he started to (over)managed it all.

He started to surround him with technically perfect skilled 'players' (not friends), certainly in the nineties. Prince kinda 'bought' his entourage.

His beat got tight, lost warmth and became perfect. Nothing more nothing less.

It was also an obvious natural consequence.

The more technically skilled musicians he had (with very few musical input), the more he could be faster in what he wanted. Again, my humble opinion.

I'm also aware of how well he used the input John Blackwell or Sonny T or others. But if you're honest, they didn't left that 'stamp' on Prince's new output the way it used to be.

His 'jazz' with Madhouse and Eric etc, had more 'life' in all it's rawness IMHO than the one he started of playing with his tight musicians lateron.

It lacked that cracky and raw jazzness in it's spacious thin arrangments.

It was just too perfect. (Although I like some parts of N.E.W.S. where we can hear Eric 'breathe' on his instruments.)

-

I just struggled thought to the new CD box ''Up All Nite'', listened to it all, no skipping.

And I can't but think and feel that this is the last time I will listen to it again (...never was convinced by the artwork anyway - which is important to me. It gives an important image to the music.)

I was happy that ''it was over''. This ''It Ain't Over'' show ached my ears.

Cold soulless perfect 'amusement' for good money paying adults in Las Vegas who only know him from Purple Rain and Kiss. :-O

Odly enough, (most of the songs of) the piano only CD (with the worst cover art ever wink), is in my opinion a very good piece of work he did in 00's. I just love that music ànd most of the songs.

Prince's warm heart was finally once again poored in good songs and sound.

-

Now this is my harsh own opinion, I know, (don't) kill me for that. wink

I am fully aware that there are fans out there who love and appreciate his later output more than I do , possibly because it was their first encounter with Prince (throughout the nineties or 00's).

And it is their full right so to deffend and like it.

Maybe I can only learn (from them).

But for now, I'm an old purple bitch stuck in the good old eighties together with Bart and other fans - not fams. wink

-

"...no matter what, all will be fine, always."
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Reply #465 posted 06/19/20 11:07pm

rednblue

Vannormal said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

herb4 though, even this is all way off topic. I mean Mountains is from a composition by Wendy & Lisa Coleman, comparing the Revolution in 1984 to people in the ONA band is not really balanced.

I mean was Prince playing better in 2001 vs 1984? Yes, but the raw 'unpolished' feel is what made the early days so alive. If the Revolution continued as Prince's band in 2001, there is no doubt their musicianship and skill would be on a different level compared to 1980 or 1984.

But one thing that the Revolution, the noituloveR etc had that later bands never did In my audio opinion was the replication of "Purple Music". And it's the way Prince wanted it back then, it had nothing to do with people you consider better drummers coming in. Blackwell is an awesome drummer, but I've also heard his style in all the many African-American 'church' musical sessions. It was 'original' in any way to my ears. But what Prince had Bobby Z doing was what Prince wanted to capture and solidify 'his' sound, that he was developing. That sound that everyone wanted to copy in the 80s. When you read the level of attention and discipline Bobby Z had to hold to get what Prince wanted, is serious respect. The Parade tours went back to more organice feels, but Prince still wanted the incorporating of the electric drums(which was a regular thing in the 80s all around).

Also for your last piece, Wendy (and Lisa) were performing more with Prince during the Musicology/3121 period. I haven't heard the chords and sound Lisa Coleman brought since she left. And remember it was Prince that said in Wendy played rhythm guitar with him better than anyone, which is why he had her on the Tavis Smiley show during the Musicology period.
.
The 2006 Brit Award show was the closest he came to having an all female band.
And when asked in 1998 what would his dream band be lined as Wendy Lisa & Sheila were named, not to mention in the hidden messages in the One video Wendy Lisa Susannah Cat Sheila and Rhonda were named..

.
But for me the thing that made the earlier band(s)1978-1985/86 more 'original' was that they were all still green in my opinion, not tainted by having performed other peoples sounds and styles. So overall they were a blank palet. Including the Time/the Family/Vanity 6 etc
.
Sheila E had performed other peoples sounds, but of course at Prince's insistance, made she she and the band learned his sound. I remember a quote from Sheila E says she and her musicians sorta studied Prince's albums to get the style in them. I think this was what led up to the 2 Sexy single. But when allowed to do her thing, a lot of times Sheila E and band fell back into a mainstream popular sound of the day. Her 3rd album shows that well. The Prince produced songs vs the Sheila E produced songs.
.
People who came later via the NPG were already influenced by other artists styles. Many who were literally sessions musicians for a period. Rhonda is a great bassists, but I can pick up her influences easily and jazz is her world, which is where she went back to after Prince. Vs BrownMark and Andre and Terry who were infused by Minneapolis and Prince's style of music. ie Purple Music.


-

I absolutely agree with all.

It's exactly what I am trying to say for years.

Thank you for writing what i think (too). wink

And I just want to add this; they were young, fresh, angry, hungry and ambitious for making music, and ready to follow Prince. And vice versa. Just like mostly all young musicians do in the pop and rock field.

(Jazz musicians only grow different from pop and rock musicians. More steady.)

And most important; the comradship/true friendships.

The kind of when being young and unapproachable.

It's a feel in their live performances and togetherness you either get or not.

Perfection is boring. The little mistakes make it human and more 'lively' - IMHO. smile

-

All the musical relationships Prince had after his stardom was accomplished were instantly different.

Yes it started off somehow during the Lovesexy era (which by the way still is one of my favourite eras, but for personaly reasons, when life came upon me).

He was in a position where he started to (over)managed it all.

He started to surround him with technically perfect skilled 'players' (not friends), certainly in the nineties. Prince kinda 'bought' his entourage.

His beat got tight, lost warmth and became perfect. Nothing more nothing less.

It was also an obvious natural consequence.

The more technically skilled musicians he had (with very few musical input), the more he could be faster in what he wanted. Again, my humble opinion.

I'm also aware of how well he used the input John Blackwell or Sonny T or others. But if you're honest, they didn't left that 'stamp' on Prince's new output the way it used to be.

His 'jazz' with Madhouse and Eric etc, had more 'life' in all it's rawness IMHO than the one he started of playing with his tight musicians lateron.

It lacked that cracky and raw jazzness in it's spacious thin arrangments.

It was just too perfect. (Although I like some parts of N.E.W.S. where we can hear Eric 'breathe' on his instruments.)

-

I just struggled thought to the new CD box ''Up All Nite'', listened to it all, no skipping.

And I can't but think and feel that this is the last time I will listen to it again (...never was convinced by the artwork anyway - which is important to me. It gives an important image to the music.)

I was happy that ''it was over''. This ''It Ain't Over'' show ached my ears.

Cold soulless perfect 'amusement' for good money paying adults in Las Vegas who only know him from Purple Rain and Kiss. :-O

Odly enough, (most of the songs of) the piano only CD (with the worst cover art ever wink), is in my opinion a very good piece of work he did in 00's. I just love that music ànd most of the songs.

Prince's warm heart was finally once again poored in good songs and sound.

-

Now this is my harsh own opinion, I know, (don't) kill me for that. wink

I am fully aware that there are fans out there who love and appreciate his later output more than I do , possibly because it was their first encounter with Prince (throughout the nineties or 00's).

And it is their full right so to deffend and like it.

Maybe I can only learn (from them).

But for now, I'm an old purple bitch stuck in the good old eighties together with Bart and other fans - not fams. wink

-


Hey Vannormal -- So cool that you are here! I just came back to tell Herb4 and OldFriends that they should check out the super (upthread) answer that you wrote to me. This was when I responded to you with a question about funk and your very favorites. I was talking about how it seemed like funk requires great choices, choices made within a framework.

Thanks again for your reply!

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Reply #466 posted 06/20/20 1:54pm

rednblue

OldFriends4Sale said:

rednblue said:

I suggested earlier that maybe different threads should be started for some of these topics.

Herb4 is one of my favorite posters : ), there's plenty of good discussion going on...so I'm honestly not trying to wish this discussion away. It's just that we maybe need some different threads for musicianship, personality, etc.

As I said in reply #159, "Whatever people may feel/think about Wendy's guitar skills or personality/character, those subjects are not the topic of this "origins of 'Mountains' " thread."

Yes, it is interesting how Wendy was attacked her for stating a simple fact of life and her career. As if any of us would not have done the same. Artists, Photographers, Engineers and Musicians...

Didn't Rosie Gaines actually go further than Wendy about what she did? and what she wasn't credited or paid for?


Here's some of what I read in Possessed about Rosie Gaines speaking on these things. Forgot to add to my earlier response. Quoting from the book:

“Old friend Rosie Gaines participated [on the 1999 remaster], but says she again was not paid.”

Also this:

"Although she would later work with Prince in the studio on several occasions, she would long harbor resentment about what she considers an absense of complete credit for her songwriting contributions on Diamonds and Pearls.

‘A lot of those were ideas the band came up with,' Gaines asserted. ‘He told us before doing [Diamonds and Pearls] that we were going to be like a family, we’re all going to do it together, and we’re going to share in it together, and we all trusted him. That’s our fault for not getting it on paper.’

When Gaines approached Prince about songwriting credit, he made it clear that he considered Diamonds and Pearls his work, and he disagreed that she deserved more money.”

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Reply #467 posted 06/20/20 3:09pm

PennyPurple

avatar

OldFriends4Sale said:

rednblue said:

I suggested earlier that maybe different threads should be started for some of these topics.

Herb4 is one of my favorite posters : ), there's plenty of good discussion going on...so I'm honestly not trying to wish this discussion away. It's just that we maybe need some different threads for musicianship, personality, etc.

As I said in reply #159, "Whatever people may feel/think about Wendy's guitar skills or personality/character, those subjects are not the topic of this "origins of 'Mountains' " thread."

Yes, it is interesting how Wendy was attacked her for stating a simple fact of life and her career. As if any of us would not have done the same. Artists, Photographers, Engineers and Musicians...

Didn't Rosie Gaines actually go further than Wendy about what she did? and what she wasn't credited or paid for?

They may be Wendy's facts, but are they the true facts? That is what is being questioned.

A MASK ISN'T TOO MUCH TO ASK!!
JJPOPPYSBOMBSQUAD #OPINIONSMATTER
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Reply #468 posted 06/20/20 3:49pm

SchlomoThaHomo

avatar

PennyPurple said:



OldFriends4Sale said:




rednblue said:


I suggested earlier that maybe different threads should be started for some of these topics.

Herb4 is one of my favorite posters : ), there's plenty of good discussion going on...so I'm honestly not trying to wish this discussion away. It's just that we maybe need some different threads for musicianship, personality, etc.

As I said in reply #159, "Whatever people may feel/think about Wendy's guitar skills or personality/character, those subjects are not the topic of this "origins of 'Mountains' " thread."





Yes, it is interesting how Wendy was attacked her for stating a simple fact of life and her career. As if any of us would not have done the same. Artists, Photographers, Engineers and Musicians...



Didn't Rosie Gaines actually go further than Wendy about what she did? and what she wasn't credited or paid for?



They may be Wendy's facts, but are they the true facts? That is what is being questioned.



Yep. Facts cosigned by both Lisa and Susan, and Prince, as he gave them writers credit decades ago. lock
[Edited 6/20/20 15:49pm]
"That's when stars collide. When there's space for what u want, and ur heart is open wide."
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Reply #469 posted 06/20/20 10:59pm

Vannormal

avatar

-

I can't help but notice that,

the use of the word 'facts' (as a sign of the times really),

is the new way of misusing truthful information

as a personal outcome to change it's content in disbelieve.

-

Like, remember nearly four years ago,

that spokeswoman of Trump 'inventing' the word

'alternative facts' ?

Just gonna leave that here.

-

Feel what you hear in the music, enjoy it,

investigate it, debate it, share it,

but most important, be open to learn from others (too).

-

That's why I think this subject is being questioned and honestly for what purpose ?

To convince others with assumptions because you don't like someone for what they do.

-

"...no matter what, all will be fine, always."
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Reply #470 posted 06/21/20 8:46am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

PennyPurple said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yes, it is interesting how Wendy was attacked her for stating a simple fact of life and her career. As if any of us would not have done the same. Artists, Photographers, Engineers and Musicians...

Didn't Rosie Gaines actually go further than Wendy about what she did? and what she wasn't credited or paid for?

They may be Wendy's facts, but are they the true facts? That is what is being questioned.

Penny, PennyPurple-ish. You're talking to the hardcore... you are going by feelings

It's not 'Wendy's Facts' If it is FACTS then it is fact, not feeling or opinion.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER


What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your milli
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Reply #471 posted 06/21/20 9:24am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

herb4 said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

herb4 though, even this is all way off topic. I mean Mountains is from a composition by Wendy & Lisa Coleman, comparing the Revolution in 1984 to people in the ONA band is not really balanced.

I mean was Prince playing better in 2001 vs 1984? Yes, but the raw 'unpolished' feel is what made the early days so alive. If the Revolution continued as Prince's band in 2001, there is no doubt their musicianship and skill would be on a different level compared to 1980 or 1984.

But one thing that the Revolution, the noituloveR etc had that later bands never did In my audio opinion was the replication of "Purple Music". And it's the way Prince wanted it back then, it had nothing to do with people you consider better drummers coming in. Blackwell is an awesome drummer, but I've also heard his style in all the many African-American 'church' musical sessions. It was 'original' in any way to my ears. But what Prince had Bobby Z doing was what Prince wanted to capture and solidify 'his' sound, that he was developing. That sound that everyone wanted to copy in the 80s. When you read the level of attention and discipline Bobby Z had to hold to get what Prince wanted, is serious respect. The Parade tours went back to more organice feels, but Prince still wanted the incorporating of the electric drums(which was a regular thing in the 80s all around).

Also for your last piece, Wendy (and Lisa) were performing more with Prince during the Musicology/3121 period. I haven't heard the chords and sound Lisa Coleman brought since she left. And remember it was Prince that said in Wendy played rhythm guitar with him better than anyone, which is why he had her on the Tavis Smiley show during the Musicology period.
.
The 2006 Brit Award show was the closest he came to having an all female band.
And when asked in 1998 what would his dream band be lined as Wendy Lisa & Sheila were named, not to mention in the hidden messages in the One video Wendy Lisa Susannah Cat Sheila and Rhonda were named..

.
But for me the thing that made the earlier band(s)1978-1985/86 more 'original' was that they were all still green in my opinion, not tainted by having performed other peoples sounds and styles. So overall they were a blank palet. Including the Time/the Family/Vanity 6 etc
.
Sheila E had performed other peoples sounds, but of course at Prince's insistance, made she she and the band learned his sound. I remember a quote from Sheila E says she and her musicians sorta studied Prince's albums to get the style in them. I think this was what led up to the 2 Sexy single. But when allowed to do her thing, a lot of times Sheila E and band fell back into a mainstream popular sound of the day. Her 3rd album shows that well. The Prince produced songs vs the Sheila E produced songs.
.
People who came later via the NPG were already influenced by other artists styles. Many who were literally sessions musicians for a period. Rhonda is a great bassists, but I can pick up her influences easily and jazz is her world, which is where she went back to after Prince. Vs BrownMark and Andre and Terry who were infused by Minneapolis and Prince's style of music. ie Purple Music.



Yeah, I get it, and you're right. You raise some good points.

There was a certain rawness to the funk he brought he when he was young, which had certain elemets of punk and was uniquely HIS SOUND back then that gave way to a more polished and slick approach that marked his later stuff. Hard to say what I liked more since I loved it all.

But the drummers he brought in later were fucking MAD and RAW in ways that really added something to his sound, especially live.



For me in general I like 'underground' raw, experimental and how that creates a type of culture... and with Prince it worked for me in the 80s. Even ready to see what this 'New Power' thing was going to be, but it feel flat when the players were no longer involved and I believe took the essence out of what could have been the Graffiti Bridge era, but that's another subject.

I'm not disagreeing anything about any musicians being good(better etc) I mean I think Bobby Z was way better than Cora. But I still enjoy periods of Prince after the 80s that make me happy. I don't think Kirk was that good either, but...

One thing about the earlier Prince sound that we have to remember is Prince dealt with more colorfully simplistic drumming/wild drumming in his music. Lady Cab Driver/777-9311 for example anything more than that was like putting ketchup on a prime steak. Same with the more demuur mirrored co/background singing vs later using bigger voices ie We Can Fuck:Jill, Lisa, Wendy or Free: Vanity Wendy Lisa Jill (or Cindy C: Sheila E/Cat) vs some of the more over the top sounds I got from Rosie or Shelby. Ther was clearly a difference ( still prefere the Family rendition of NC2U vs Prince's new power version with Rosie.

Miko Weavers thoughts on the new NPG band:

A: So what was actually the reason that you left, or did he ask you to leave?
Mico: No I left on my own not because of him and I don't know if I feel good when I now say that it was because of the other band members. It was like: Prince -- The Band -- and Me. Me and him was cool but me with the band? Because I'm Miko one hundred per cent, twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week always, never changing. But they -- when Prince came into the room it was like 'Okay -- lights, camera, action', a whole new personality came out and they weren't true to themselves. That's basically why I left.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER


What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your milli
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Reply #472 posted 06/21/20 12:12pm

tab32792

Except he played strange relationship hundreds of times since 87, especially from 2002 on so that kill your point. In this bed I scream is one song lol but I’ll let you have that for arguments sake. Prince has bigged up whatever his current band was over the past ones even up until 3rdeyegirl.

Your argument is biased seeing as you have an early 80’s bias and that’s cool & fair but passing off opinions as fact is what’s wrong with a lot of fans. Hence why so many of them take what certain protégés as facts without critique

If prince wanted later bands to continue to sound like the record or “purple music” as you call it, not only would he get stale fast as a live act, he would’ve kept the same band but instead like miles Davis he constantly changed musicians for new ideas & feels. They played what prince wanted them to play and how. Wanting a musician to stay the same says more about you than it does him; also a quote & a fact from Prince himself


Side bar: Wendy on rhythm guitar could not hold a candle to Miko.



OldFriends4Sale said:

I guess it depends ... youre arguement then should never be the same as far as later Prince albums
.
You know the 'well there is always a gem or two on a Prince album' arguement


.


I'm a huge jazz fan, Jazz music is never 'hits' big hits etc but it is great music. Most of my fav Prince songs are obscure ones, even on the big hit maker albums
.
Of course you're not wanting to see anything,
.
Naw he diminished things they did because of the emotional connection....
He did erase their contribution of Slow Love... I still prefere the Dream Factory version of Strange Relationship... Do you ever wonder why he almost never performed the song? obvious.
.
Remember he is the same person who dedicated the song In This Bed I Scream to Wendy Lisa and Susannah... that is fact not opinion... in Prince's own words

To these walls I talk
Tellin' 'em what I wasn't strong enough 2 say
To these walls I talk
Tellin' 'em how I cried the day you went away


How did we ever lose communication?
How did we ever lose each other's sound?
Baby, if you wanna, we can fix the situation
Maybe we can stop the rain from coming down


Yeah


In this bed I scream
Lonely nights I lay awake thinking of you
And if I'm cursed with a dream
A thousand times I feel whatever I've put you through


Tell me, how're we gonna put this back together?
How're we gonna think with the same mind?
Knowing all along that life is so much better
Living and loving together all the time


Living and loving


In this bed I, in this bed I, in this bed I scream


In this car I drive
I'm looking for the road that leads back to the...


In this car I drive
I'm looking for the road that leads back to the soul we shared
With my very life
I'd gladly be the body upon the cross we bear (Cross we bear)


How did we ever lose communication? (How did we?)
How did we ever lose each other's sound? (I don't know)
Baby, if you wanna, we can fix the situation
Maybe we can stop the rain from coming down


Maybe we can't, maybe we can
Stop the rain, stop the rain


In this bed I, in this bed I, in this bed I scream
I scream


In this bed I scream





tab32792 said:


Unless there’s other songs on the released album that they’re actually on, enlighten me. Otherwise...I’m not wanting to see anything. It’s a fact not an opinion. Hence the reason he erased majority of their contributions and re did strange relationship OldFriends4Sale said:



Of course you want 2 c it that way... the truth it will always be connected with the energy of the Parade era and Dream Factory/Camille sessions





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Reply #473 posted 06/21/20 12:14pm

tab32792

The same arguments are presented in threads as such. Wendy and Lisa worshippers who hate everything prince did since they left and people who like all prince music and find gems in all eras.

Wendy and Lisa definitely brought a lot and you can hear their influence on mountains and numerous songs from 85-86 but they’re not the end all be all and just because they say something doesn’t make it fact. Same for other protégés but notice mostly only 80’s associates are the ones talking so much
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Reply #474 posted 06/21/20 12:36pm

ForceofNature

tab32792 said:

The same arguments are presented in threads as such. Wendy and Lisa worshippers who hate everything prince did since they left and people who like all prince music and find gems in all eras.

Wendy and Lisa definitely brought a lot and you can hear their influence on mountains and numerous songs from 85-86 but they’re not the end all be all and just because they say something doesn’t make it fact. Same for other protégés but notice mostly only 80’s associates are the ones talking so much

I love all eras of Prince - ultimately I haven't seen much in terms of statements from W&L that we, as fans who weren't there can possibly override statements from though. In this case of Mountains I see no reason not to take their comments at face value
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Reply #475 posted 06/21/20 1:20pm

OldFriends4Sal
e

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rednblue said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Yes, it is interesting how Wendy was attacked her for stating a simple fact of life and her career. As if any of us would not have done the same. Artists, Photographers, Engineers and Musicians...

Didn't Rosie Gaines actually go further than Wendy about what she did? and what she wasn't credited or paid for?


Here's some of what I read in Possessed about Rosie Gaines speaking on these things. Forgot to add to my earlier response. Quoting from the book:

“Old friend Rosie Gaines participated [on the 1999 remaster], but says she again was not paid.”

Also this:

"Although she would later work with Prince in the studio on several occasions, she would long harbor resentment about what she considers an absense of complete credit for her songwriting contributions on Diamonds and Pearls.

‘A lot of those were ideas the band came up with,' Gaines asserted. ‘He told us before doing [Diamonds and Pearls] that we were going to be like a family, we’re all going to do it together, and we’re going to share in it together, and we all trusted him. That’s our fault for not getting it on paper.’

When Gaines approached Prince about songwriting credit, he made it clear that he considered Diamonds and Pearls his work, and he disagreed that she deserved more money.”



Have you come across people who vilified Rosie, because she said these things?

I mean Prince was friends with Wendy before she actually started recording with him and friends after until his passing.

People still bitch out Andre for some things he said he wasn't credited.

I think the "Prince did everything and played everything" cult belief still influences peoples ideas of their Prince

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER


What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your milli
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Reply #476 posted 06/21/20 1:23pm

OldFriends4Sal
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tab32792 said:

The same arguments are presented in threads as such. Wendy and Lisa worshippers who hate everything prince did since they left and people who like all prince music and find gems in all eras. Wendy and Lisa definitely brought a lot and you can hear their influence on mountains and numerous songs from 85-86 but they’re not the end all be all and just because they say something doesn’t make it fact. Same for other protégés but notice mostly only 80’s associates are the ones talking so much

This is all beating a dead horse though. It was common knowledge about Mountains for so long, that I weirded out by 'fans' who act like they didn't know, or this is someething knew to attack Wendy about. It's silly

The songs Old Friends 4 Sale and Strange Relationships Prince is quoted saying Wendy & Lisa were a part of the production but people will fight that too

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER


What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your milli
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Reply #477 posted 06/21/20 1:35pm

OldFriends4Sal
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I'm talking about in the time period it was released. Hell most of Lovesexy he never performed again.

And he still never performed the song as much as you are saying. He just didn't.

And he did a short instrumental of Erotic City during the LotusFlow3r listening party...

So no you didn't kill my point.

And you aren't letting me have anything. The song was directly about his musical relationship with Wendy & Lisa (and Susannah) and he never did another like that for anyone else.

Your biased too, so come on down off that high wooden horse.

You must know understand what is concidered purple music. The range was everything from Dirty Mind to Parade/Dream Factory/Camille/SOTT. There is nothing 'stale' about that. You are refering the 'the Minneapolis Sound' which is a bit different.

I never said I wanted Prince to stay the same. Your whole post here says a lot about you. Yet youre talking about people quoting facts. Man please. I was not the person that wanted 'Purple Rain' two. I LOVED ATWIAD, and then I heard Old Friends 4 Sale, something totally different in sound yet still sounding like Prince, and then expecting it on Parade. And hearing Parade and being blown away sitting between my family house speakers and then hearing the Black album played over a stores speakers, not being able to leave until I heard everything, then figure out how to get a copy. etc

So naw you don't know me, sit back. Throught Prince's career I've always been taken by songs that felt more authentically Prince. From Money Don't Matter 2Night, Tangerine, I Hate U, Solo, songs from the Truth, Rainbow Children I love the whole album, I love 20Ten, the title cut Planet Earth, Somewhere Here On Earth, Hypnoparadise etc

So stop being judgemental. I think everyone of us like particular areas of music more than others. I still love music from the 70s 80s early-mid pushing later 90s. After that, it's just by artist or song. and forever a HouseHead and Jazz Neophyte

"She plays acoustic guitar with me better than almost anyone. The opportunity came up and her name was the first to come to mind. I'm looking for things to juice me, too."

tab32792 said:

Except he played strange relationship hundreds of times since 87, especially from 2002 on so that kill your point. In this bed I scream is one song lol but I’ll let you have that for arguments sake. Prince has bigged up whatever his current band was over the past ones even up until 3rdeyegirl. Your argument is biased seeing as you have an early 80’s bias and that’s cool & fair but passing off opinions as fact is what’s wrong with a lot of fans. Hence why so many of them take what certain protégés as facts without critique If prince wanted later bands to continue to sound like the record or “purple music” as you call it, not only would he get stale fast as a live act, he would’ve kept the same band but instead like miles Davis he constantly changed musicians for new ideas & feels. They played what prince wanted them to play and how. Wanting a musician to stay the same says more about you than it does him; also a quote & a fact from Prince himself Side bar: Wendy on rhythm guitar could not hold a candle to Miko. OldFriends4Sale said:

I guess it depends ... youre arguement then should never be the same as far as later Prince albums
.
You know the 'well there is always a gem or two on a Prince album' arguement

.

I'm a huge jazz fan, Jazz music is never 'hits' big hits etc but it is great music. Most of my fav Prince songs are obscure ones, even on the big hit maker albums
.
Of course you're not wanting to see anything,
.
Naw he diminished things they did because of the emotional connection....
He did erase their contribution of Slow Love... I still prefere the Dream Factory version of Strange Relationship... Do you ever wonder why he almost never performed the song? obvious.
.
Remember he is the same person who dedicated the song In This Bed I Scream to Wendy Lisa and Susannah... that is fact not opinion... in Prince's own words

To these walls I talk
Tellin' 'em what I wasn't strong enough 2 say
To these walls I talk
Tellin' 'em how I cried the day you went away

How did we ever lose communication?
How did we ever lose each other's sound?
Baby, if you wanna, we can fix the situation
Maybe we can stop the rain from coming down

Yeah

In this bed I scream
Lonely nights I lay awake thinking of you
And if I'm cursed with a dream
A thousand times I feel whatever I've put you through

Tell me, how're we gonna put this back together?
How're we gonna think with the same mind?
Knowing all along that life is so much better
Living and loving together all the time

Living and loving

In this bed I, in this bed I, in this bed I scream

In this car I drive
I'm looking for the road that leads back to the...

In this car I drive
I'm looking for the road that leads back to the soul we shared
With my very life
I'd gladly be the body upon the cross we bear (Cross we bear)

How did we ever lose communication? (How did we?)
How did we ever lose each other's sound? (I don't know)
Baby, if you wanna, we can fix the situation
Maybe we can stop the rain from coming down

Maybe we can't, maybe we can
Stop the rain, stop the rain

In this bed I, in this bed I, in this bed I scream
I scream

In this bed I scream

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER


What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your milli
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Reply #478 posted 06/21/20 2:40pm

herb4

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Aaannnnddd....

Now it's getting weird and ugly for no good reason at all.

Good lord. The fuck is wrong with this place and some of you coming off like this...Fucking weirdos with some sort of odd axe to grind that I'll never understand...?

...

Anyhow...

Focusing on and responding to some of the more CONSTRUCTIVE posts recently:

I have to say that one thing that bugged me about the earlier sound was how synthetic the drums always sounded. I know Bobby Z was really PLAYING but I grew tired of having the sound like it came from a machine, tbh, even it replicated the album sound.

It worked on the albums because I knew what Prince was doing with multi-tracking, sequencing , overdubs, the Linn sound and what have you but, for me, that same sound from a live band sacrificed a LOT on the bottom end of the overall sound, and I'd have preferred to really hear a proper drummer for the most part.

When I saw Blackwell and Michael B put his beats down proper, or even letting Sheila do her thing, I was thrilled catching those goosebumps and excited to hear him surround himself with folks who measured up to his own level iof musicanship in ways that added to the collective whole.

I GET the old sound and what people dig about it (I dig it too) but when I go see a LIVE band, I want them bringing a LIVE sound. Maybe that's just me but ONA and Musicology brought way more to the table than when I saw him live in my younger years, admittedly for different reasons. That acoustic set and the extended workout of DMSR just fucking CRUSHED for me.

Prince had enough to do on stage (dance, solo on the guitar, play piano, sing, jump from risers, hit splits, change outfits) to the point that, over time, I began to welcome the help he got and thought his live sound only improved with better players. See the R&RHoF show and Super Bowl show for evidence.

Like I said, it could just be me and simply come down to personal preference, and I'm super sad I'll never get to hear it again no matter who's playing next to him, but here we are with some rather weird and agressive arguments being asserted in an odd back and forth thread, bordering on the defensive, that seem to be telling fans they're Simply Listening to Music Wrong.

I'm not the one here telling the thread that their ears are broken, like some here seem to ramping up on and brushing up next to but to each their own I guess, even if I personally think one or two of you should dial it down a notch and get over yourselves before lecturing the thread on What Was Really Better! Who Wrote What. When. and WHY!!.

It's OK to like music/art and have preferences. It's OK to like a movie, a book, an album, a band or a show that others might not. We don't need to call people who dislike what we personally enjoy or who hear things through different ears as incapable of appreciating art.

At least I don't think we do.

We're all fans arent't we?

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Reply #479 posted 06/21/20 3:32pm

PennyPurple

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OldFriends4Sale said:

PennyPurple said:

They may be Wendy's facts, but are they the true facts? That is what is being questioned.

Penny, PennyPurple-ish. You're talking to the hardcore... you are going by feelings

It's not 'Wendy's Facts' If it is FACTS then it is fact, not feeling or opinion.

lol

A MASK ISN'T TOO MUCH TO ASK!!
JJPOPPYSBOMBSQUAD #OPINIONSMATTER
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