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Reply #240 posted 03/17/20 10:44am

authorbest

rednblue said:

rednblue said:



Gonna make a general comment here. Addiction and suicidality aren't mutually exclusive. To the contrary, incidence is increased.

OK.. I can agree with that statement. For example, I believe Michael Jackson's death was also a suicide but not in the same manner as Prince. Michael Jackson was a passive suicide by unethical greedy doctor. Prince's death was active, taken by his own hand and will. Prince knowingly put an abundance of pills in his mouth and swallowed knowing the outcome would be death.

If Prince didn't have access to Fentanyl, I believe a more gruesome method would have occurred to accomplish his task.

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Reply #241 posted 03/17/20 11:00am

PeggyO

authorbest said:

iamafan said:

Just to follow up, seeing blood test results would be interesting. However, I don't think a CBC really shows much, I think you need much more detailed tests like CD4 (if suspect HIV). Also, you can have an normal CBC and have cancer and all kinds of diseases. The Comprehensive Metabolic Panel would show more if it were liver related.


Prince being slightly anemic wouldn't be shocking at all given his diet. You would also think his liver numbers would be abnormal given his opiod intake, and maybe kidney function. Or, maybe Dr. S did run all those tests and everything was fine except hemoglobin. But as was stated earlier, unless that info is released, speculation will continue.

You are right. We don't know what tests Dr. S ordered.

However, we can infer that at least a CBC was done. If Prince had AIDS unchecked to the point that people believe his weight loss was due to that reason you would have probably seen an abnormality in the WBC count. Requiring further detailed testing. Yet, the Dr. says the tests showed nothing.

The Dr. S did do physical exams of Prince on both April 7 and April 20. Prince had virtually no pain complaints other than slight hip pain and some mild nausea on April 7 and feeling antsy on April 21. You would think that Prince would have some major complains and actual physical manifestation of advanced cancer or liver disease. The doctor did not note jaundice or skin lesions, ascites or bumps. Nothing.

As far as toxicology, I saw no legitmate lab reports. If you have seen this can you provide a link?


It is noted in the police report narrative the following reguarding toxicology:



Blood level of Fentanyl is 67.8 mcg/l.

Dr. Strobl in multiple conversations with supervising detective DeWitt Meier said that she expected stomach contents to have low levels of Fentanyl because of high levels in the blood.


Actual chemical analysis of the stomach fluids shows “extremely high level” of Fentanyl in the stomach contents leaving no doubt Fentanyl was ingested orally in “pill form”.

There were news reports of addition detail on the toxicology regarding actual Fentanyl levels in the liver and stomach. However, again no actual toxicology report from a lab.

Liver: 435 mcg

gastric (stomach): 14,000 mcg

This is a reason for Motioning the court and getting an the actual autospsy and toxicology reports release as I noted in a prior post.

The medical examiner declared this an "accidental" overdose on June 2, 2016. Judith Hill was not interviewed until June 16, 2016.

From what we do know and from what Prince did and left behind and Judith Hill's statement. I am confident that Prince's death was a suicide.

Urine Toxicology (High opiates) is in Investigtive reports.

There will be no release of autopsy per Minnesota law. (for 30 years). Please stop asking for that.

The inaccuracies here are infuriating.

[Edited 3/17/20 11:02am]

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Reply #242 posted 03/17/20 11:16am

rednblue

authorbest said:



rednblue said:




rednblue said:







Gonna make a general comment here. Addiction and suicidality aren't mutually exclusive. To the contrary, incidence is increased.



OK.. I can agree with that statement. For example, I believe Michael Jackson's death was also a suicide but not in the same manner as Prince. Michael Jackson was a passive suicide by unethical greedy doctor. Prince's death was active, taken by his own hand and will. Prince knowingly put an abundance of pills in his mouth and swallowed knowing the outcome would be death.

If Prince didn't have access to Fentanyl, I believe a more gruesome method would have occurred to accomplish his task.



Thank you for your response.

The scenario you describe with Michael Jackson isn’t a suicide. Many people’s lives involve big risks. Many people choose to accept more risk at some phases of their lives than they do at others. That a choice/action is associated with significant risk does not make it a suicide attempt.

Or maybe I misunderstand what you are saying. Are you saying that you believe that Michael Jackson asked his doctor to help him end his life?
[Edited 3/17/20 12:14pm]
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Reply #243 posted 03/17/20 11:43am

PeggyO

PeggyO said:

authorbest said:

You are right. We don't know what tests Dr. S ordered.

However, we can infer that at least a CBC was done. If Prince had AIDS unchecked to the point that people believe his weight loss was due to that reason you would have probably seen an abnormality in the WBC count. Requiring further detailed testing. Yet, the Dr. says the tests showed nothing.

The Dr. S did do physical exams of Prince on both April 7 and April 20. Prince had virtually no pain complaints other than slight hip pain and some mild nausea on April 7 and feeling antsy on April 21. You would think that Prince would have some major complains and actual physical manifestation of advanced cancer or liver disease. The doctor did not note jaundice or skin lesions, ascites or bumps. Nothing.

As far as toxicology, I saw no legitmate lab reports. If you have seen this can you provide a link?


It is noted in the police report narrative the following reguarding toxicology:



Blood level of Fentanyl is 67.8 mcg/l.

Dr. Strobl in multiple conversations with supervising detective DeWitt Meier said that she expected stomach contents to have low levels of Fentanyl because of high levels in the blood.


Actual chemical analysis of the stomach fluids shows “extremely high level” of Fentanyl in the stomach contents leaving no doubt Fentanyl was ingested orally in “pill form”.

There were news reports of addition detail on the toxicology regarding actual Fentanyl levels in the liver and stomach. However, again no actual toxicology report from a lab.

Liver: 435 mcg

gastric (stomach): 14,000 mcg

This is a reason for Motioning the court and getting an the actual autospsy and toxicology reports release as I noted in a prior post.

The medical examiner declared this an "accidental" overdose on June 2, 2016. Judith Hill was not interviewed until June 16, 2016.

From what we do know and from what Prince did and left behind and Judith Hill's statement. I am confident that Prince's death was a suicide.

Urine Toxicology (High opiates) is in Investigtive reports.

There will be no release of autopsy per Minnesota law. (for 30 years). Please stop asking for that.

The inaccuracies here are infuriating.

[Edited 3/17/20 11:02am]

I just want to say one thing. I know I post alot about this topic and I want to assure everyone, including the Mods, that I really do not know what happened to Prince. I am not trying to push the AIDS diagnosis at all. I do think he had some kind of wasting disease, period. It could have been cancer, who knows?

I am trying to keep the medical part of this discussion as accurate as I know how to. I have felt that there have been important parts of the investigtive reports inaccessible to us so I do question that.

There, IMO, have also been many with little medical background making medically inaccurate statements and taking a crowd with them.

i just hate to see that, it is offensive to me. I am a practicing RN with 25+ years experience, mostly in critical care and case management. I do know how to read labs, I also understand why an MD would order certain tests and what they are looking for. I am not an MD but have to work critically with MD's and am expected to talk to them intelligently. If I do not comprehend my patient's diagnosis and reason for treatment, I am reprimanded.

You learn alot in those years and much is expected, especially in critical care.

Re: Toxicology, that can mean bloodwork, urine, gastric contents etc.

In the 'business' urine toxicology is called UTox.

Something else...Dr S knew that Prince had an addiction, but he still ordered additional tests. He was likely looking for other issues besides drug addiction, ie., cancer,kidney disease, HIV etc.to see if he could treat him.

[Edited 3/17/20 11:47am]

[Edited 3/17/20 12:15pm]

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Reply #244 posted 03/17/20 12:27pm

ISaidLifeIsJus
tAGame

avatar

PeggyO said:

I just want to say one thing. I know I post alot about this topic and I want to assure everyone, including the Mods, that I really do not know what happened to Prince. I am not trying to push the AIDS diagnosis at all. I do think he had some kind of wasting disease, period. It could have been cancer, who knows?

I am trying to keep the medical part of this discussion as accurate as I know how to. I have felt that there have been important parts of the investigtive reports inaccessible to us so I do question that.

There, IMO, have also been many with little medical background making medically inaccurate statements and taking a crowd with them.

i just hate to see that, it is offensive to me. I am a practicing RN with 25+ years experience, mostly in critical care and case management. I do know how to read labs, I also understand why an MD would order certain tests and what they are looking for. I am not an MD but have to work critically with MD's and am expected to talk to them intelligently. If I do not comprehend my patient's diagnosis and reason for treatment, I am reprimanded.

You learn alot in those years and much is expected, especially in critical care.

Re: Toxicology, that can mean bloodwork, urine, gastric contents etc.

In the 'business' urine toxicology is called UTox.

Something else...Dr S knew that Prince had an addiction, but he still ordered additional tests. He was likely looking for other issues besides drug addiction, ie., cancer,kidney disease, HIV etc.to see if he could treat him.

clapping clapping

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Reply #245 posted 03/17/20 12:50pm

authorbest

PeggyO said:

authorbest said:

You are right. We don't know what tests Dr. S ordered.

However, we can infer that at least a CBC was done. If Prince had AIDS unchecked to the point that people believe his weight loss was due to that reason you would have probably seen an abnormality in the WBC count. Requiring further detailed testing. Yet, the Dr. says the tests showed nothing.

The Dr. S did do physical exams of Prince on both April 7 and April 20. Prince had virtually no pain complaints other than slight hip pain and some mild nausea on April 7 and feeling antsy on April 21. You would think that Prince would have some major complains and actual physical manifestation of advanced cancer or liver disease. The doctor did not note jaundice or skin lesions, ascites or bumps. Nothing.

As far as toxicology, I saw no legitmate lab reports. If you have seen this can you provide a link?


It is noted in the police report narrative the following reguarding toxicology:



Blood level of Fentanyl is 67.8 mcg/l.

Dr. Strobl in multiple conversations with supervising detective DeWitt Meier said that she expected stomach contents to have low levels of Fentanyl because of high levels in the blood.


Actual chemical analysis of the stomach fluids shows “extremely high level” of Fentanyl in the stomach contents leaving no doubt Fentanyl was ingested orally in “pill form”.

There were news reports of addition detail on the toxicology regarding actual Fentanyl levels in the liver and stomach. However, again no actual toxicology report from a lab.

Liver: 435 mcg

gastric (stomach): 14,000 mcg

This is a reason for Motioning the court and getting an the actual autospsy and toxicology reports release as I noted in a prior post.

The medical examiner declared this an "accidental" overdose on June 2, 2016. Judith Hill was not interviewed until June 16, 2016.

From what we do know and from what Prince did and left behind and Judith Hill's statement. I am confident that Prince's death was a suicide.

Urine Toxicology (High opiates) is in Investigtive reports.

There will be no release of autopsy per Minnesota law. (for 30 years). Please stop asking for that.

The inaccuracies here are infuriating.

[Edited 3/17/20 11:02am]

All my information was taken from the police reports and this news story. The news story uses milligrams in indicating the amount of Fentanyl in Prince's system. However, that is clearly a typo and they meant mcg which is the measuring unit for Fentanyl.

https://kstp.com/medical/fentanyl-related-overdoses-rising-chicago-dea-lab-chemists-track-drugs-prince-death/4491091/


So what specifically do you feel is inaccurate and thus infuriating? Be specific.

Further MN law does say that autopsy are not released for 30 years. But MN law also provides an exception to that. The exception being 'public interest'. However, to obtain release of the autoposy on this exception someone must file a Motion in Carver County Circuit Court or the Minnesaota Administrative Law Court requesting release of the autospy based on this 'public interest' exception. Obviously, those wanting to maintain the withholding of this document (the Medical Examiner and/or family) would have an opportunity to file a Counter Motion to stop release based on this exception. The judge would have to hear both arguments and make a decision. So it is not a given that it would be release even if a motion is filed.

This is what was done by a Minnesota newspaper to obtain release of Prince's sealed divorce files from Manuela Testolini. The paper filed a motion, Manuel Testolini tried to block the motion but she fail and the judge released the divorce document citing public interest. If Prince's divorce papers were considered 'public interest', there seems there would be more of a 'public interest' in autopsy reports given the questions swirling around Prince's death.

So again what do you feel is inaccurate?

[Edited 3/17/20 13:16pm]

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Reply #246 posted 03/17/20 12:54pm

Morgaine

authorbest said:



rednblue said:




rednblue said:







Gonna make a general comment here. Addiction and suicidality aren't mutually exclusive. To the contrary, incidence is increased.



OK.. I can agree with that statement. For example, I believe Michael Jackson's death was also a suicide but not in the same manner as Prince. Michael Jackson was a passive suicide by unethical greedy doctor. Prince's death was active, taken by his own hand and will. Prince knowingly put an abundance of pills in his mouth and swallowed knowing the outcome would be death.

If Prince didn't have access to Fentanyl, I believe a more gruesome method would have occurred to accomplish his task.



OT - Michael did not commit suicide.I do not believe he would have left his children that way.
California v. Murray was the American criminal trial of Michael personal physician, charged with involuntary manslaughter for the pop singer's death on June 25, 2009, from a massive overdose of the general anesthetic propofol. He was convicted & served around two years & lost his license.
Not the same at all.
The kind of love that takes over your body, mind, & soul
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Reply #247 posted 03/17/20 1:00pm

authorbest

rednblue said:

authorbest said:

OK.. I can agree with that statement. For example, I believe Michael Jackson's death was also a suicide but not in the same manner as Prince. Michael Jackson was a passive suicide by unethical greedy doctor. Prince's death was active, taken by his own hand and will. Prince knowingly put an abundance of pills in his mouth and swallowed knowing the outcome would be death.

If Prince didn't have access to Fentanyl, I believe a more gruesome method would have occurred to accomplish his task.

Thank you for your response. The scenario you describe with Michael Jackson isn’t a suicide. Many people’s lives involve big risks. Many people choose to accept more risk at some phases of their lives than they do at others. That a choice/action is associated with significant risk does not make it a suicide attempt. Or maybe I misunderstand what you are saying. Are you saying that you believe that Michael Jackson asked his doctor to help him end his life? [Edited 3/17/20 12:14pm]

No I don't think that Michael Jackson asked the doctor to end his life. But the drug that Mr. Jackson insisted on being given at home was radically outside normal practice given the nature of the drug that was used. The outcome that resulted was almost something that could be expected.

You have to watch the testiomony in the Conrad Murray trail. No self respecting ethical doctor would have administered this drug outside a clinical setting that had personel and equipment that could watch and monitor Mr. Jackson and his vital signs and would have the ability to address problem in case something went wrong. And given the setting it was only really a matter of time that something would go wrong. It not about taking risks. You just don't given that kind of drug outside a clinical setting. That's it.

MJ was taking other medication at the time too.

I really don't understand why that case went to trial. The Dr. should have asked for a plea deal. But the testimony, especially fromm emergency medical personel, was very riveting and enlightening.

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Reply #248 posted 03/17/20 1:05pm

iamafan

PeggyO said:

PeggyO said:

Urine Toxicology (High opiates) is in Investigtive reports.

There will be no release of autopsy per Minnesota law. (for 30 years). Please stop asking for that.

The inaccuracies here are infuriating.

[Edited 3/17/20 11:02am]

I just want to say one thing. I know I post alot about this topic and I want to assure everyone, including the Mods, that I really do not know what happened to Prince. I am not trying to push the AIDS diagnosis at all. I do think he had some kind of wasting disease, period. It could have been cancer, who knows?

I am trying to keep the medical part of this discussion as accurate as I know how to. I have felt that there have been important parts of the investigtive reports inaccessible to us so I do question that.

There, IMO, have also been many with little medical background making medically inaccurate statements and taking a crowd with them.

i just hate to see that, it is offensive to me. I am a practicing RN with 25+ years experience, mostly in critical care and case management. I do know how to read labs, I also understand why an MD would order certain tests and what they are looking for. I am not an MD but have to work critically with MD's and am expected to talk to them intelligently. If I do not comprehend my patient's diagnosis and reason for treatment, I am reprimanded.

You learn alot in those years and much is expected, especially in critical care.

Re: Toxicology, that can mean bloodwork, urine, gastric contents etc.

In the 'business' urine toxicology is called UTox.

Something else...Dr S knew that Prince had an addiction, but he still ordered additional tests. He was likely looking for other issues besides drug addiction, ie., cancer,kidney disease, HIV etc.to see if he could treat him.

[Edited 3/17/20 11:47am]

[Edited 3/17/20 12:15pm]

Or it could have been he ordered the tests to see if he had kidney disease from narcotic abuse. (That wouldn't be shown in CBC of course, but we really don't know what all he ran. I know the Moline doctor was very worried about kidney issues from drugs)

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Reply #249 posted 03/17/20 1:13pm

authorbest

PeggyO said:

PeggyO said:

Urine Toxicology (High opiates) is in Investigtive reports.

There will be no release of autopsy per Minnesota law. (for 30 years). Please stop asking for that.

The inaccuracies here are infuriating.

[Edited 3/17/20 11:02am]

I just want to say one thing. I know I post alot about this topic and I want to assure everyone, including the Mods, that I really do not know what happened to Prince. I am not trying to push the AIDS diagnosis at all. I do think he had some kind of wasting disease, period. It could have been cancer, who knows?

I am trying to keep the medical part of this discussion as accurate as I know how to. I have felt that there have been important parts of the investigtive reports inaccessible to us so I do question that.

There, IMO, have also been many with little medical background making medically inaccurate statements and taking a crowd with them.

i just hate to see that, it is offensive to me. I am a practicing RN with 25+ years experience, mostly in critical care and case management. I do know how to read labs, I also understand why an MD would order certain tests and what they are looking for. I am not an MD but have to work critically with MD's and am expected to talk to them intelligently. If I do not comprehend my patient's diagnosis and reason for treatment, I am reprimanded.

You learn alot in those years and much is expected, especially in critical care.

Re: Toxicology, that can mean bloodwork, urine, gastric contents etc.

In the 'business' urine toxicology is called UTox.

Something else...Dr S knew that Prince had an addiction, but he still ordered additional tests. He was likely looking for other issues besides drug addiction, ie., cancer,kidney disease, HIV etc.to see if he could treat him.

[Edited 3/17/20 11:47am]

[Edited 3/17/20 12:15pm]

Ok. I will agree to your expert status here on Prince.org. So review the information that we know.

Prince took an excessive amount of Fentanyl most likely on April 15, 2016 and for sure on April 21, 2016.

April 15, 2016 is the April Anniversary of Vanity's death.

Prince was given two 2mg injections IV push on the airport tarmac to revive him on April 15, 2016.

Prince, accorrding to Medical Reports in the DEA file, did not display any signs of immediate and severe opiate withdrawal symptoms after given two very high doses of Narcan, which is a side effect of Narcan use.

Prince spends 7.5 hours in the hospital before flying home.

He had some low level of opitates in a urine test from the evening of April 20, 2016. But the urine test shows no Fentanyl in urine.

April 21, 2016 is the first day of the full moon in April.

At 9-10 AM of April 21, 2016 Prince's body is found in an advance state of rigor mortis in the elevator.

The toxicology reveals that Prince's body had the follwing levels of Fentanyl in his system on said morning.

Blood: 67.8 mcg

Liver: 435 mcg

gastirc: 14,000 mcg

Also read Judith Hill's statement to police before coming to your conclusion.

Is it more likely than not that Prince's death was a suicide?

[Edited 3/17/20 14:38pm]

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Reply #250 posted 03/17/20 1:25pm

authorbest

iamafan said:

PeggyO said:

I just want to say one thing. I know I post alot about this topic and I want to assure everyone, including the Mods, that I really do not know what happened to Prince. I am not trying to push the AIDS diagnosis at all. I do think he had some kind of wasting disease, period. It could have been cancer, who knows?

I am trying to keep the medical part of this discussion as accurate as I know how to. I have felt that there have been important parts of the investigtive reports inaccessible to us so I do question that.

There, IMO, have also been many with little medical background making medically inaccurate statements and taking a crowd with them.

i just hate to see that, it is offensive to me. I am a practicing RN with 25+ years experience, mostly in critical care and case management. I do know how to read labs, I also understand why an MD would order certain tests and what they are looking for. I am not an MD but have to work critically with MD's and am expected to talk to them intelligently. If I do not comprehend my patient's diagnosis and reason for treatment, I am reprimanded.

You learn alot in those years and much is expected, especially in critical care.

Re: Toxicology, that can mean bloodwork, urine, gastric contents etc.

In the 'business' urine toxicology is called UTox.

Something else...Dr S knew that Prince had an addiction, but he still ordered additional tests. He was likely looking for other issues besides drug addiction, ie., cancer,kidney disease, HIV etc.to see if he could treat him.

[Edited 3/17/20 11:47am]

[Edited 3/17/20 12:15pm]

Or it could have been he ordered the tests to see if he had kidney disease from narcotic abuse. (That wouldn't be shown in CBC of course, but we really don't know what all he ran. I know the Moline doctor was very worried about kidney issues from drugs)

The Moline doctor was worried primarily about liver toxicity and kidney secondary. This is because Prince showed them a pill that was stamped Watson 853, which they determined to be Vicodin based on the stamp. Vicodin is a hydrocodone/tylenol combination drug. 325 mg of Tylenol in each pill. Tylenol taken in large doses is toxic to the liver. Prince told medical personel that he had taken one or two pills. But the medical staff knew that was not true because two 2mg shots of Narcan was needed to revive him. They knew he had taken many, many pills and if the pills were Vicodin then he would be in danger of liver toxicity due to the amount of Tylenol ingested along with the opiate.

What they didn't know is that the pills Prince showed them were actually the fake pills, filled with Fentanyl and Lidocaine and had no Tylenol in them.

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Reply #251 posted 03/17/20 1:33pm

iamafan

authorbest said:

iamafan said:

Or it could have been he ordered the tests to see if he had kidney disease from narcotic abuse. (That wouldn't be shown in CBC of course, but we really don't know what all he ran. I know the Moline doctor was very worried about kidney issues from drugs)

The Moline doctor was worried primarily about liver toxicity and kidney secondary. This is because Prince showed them a pill that was stamped Watson 853, which they determined to be Vicodin based on the stamp. Vicodin is a hydrocodone/tylenol combination drug. 325 mg of Tylenol in each pill. Tylenol taken in large doses is toxic to the liver. Prince told medical personel that he had taken one or two pills. But the medical staff knew that was not true because two 2mg shots of Narcan was needed to revive him. They knew he had taken many, many pills and if the pills were Vicodin then he would be in danger of liver toxicity due to the amount of Tylenol ingested along with the opiate.

What they didn't know is that the pills Prince showed them were actually the fake pills, filled with Fentanyl and Lidocaine and had no Tylenol in them.

I agree. Just saying Dr. S may have had the same line of reasoning...

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Reply #252 posted 03/17/20 2:35pm

authorbest

iamafan said:

authorbest said:

The Moline doctor was worried primarily about liver toxicity and kidney secondary. This is because Prince showed them a pill that was stamped Watson 853, which they determined to be Vicodin based on the stamp. Vicodin is a hydrocodone/tylenol combination drug. 325 mg of Tylenol in each pill. Tylenol taken in large doses is toxic to the liver. Prince told medical personel that he had taken one or two pills. But the medical staff knew that was not true because two 2mg shots of Narcan was needed to revive him. They knew he had taken many, many pills and if the pills were Vicodin then he would be in danger of liver toxicity due to the amount of Tylenol ingested along with the opiate.

What they didn't know is that the pills Prince showed them were actually the fake pills, filled with Fentanyl and Lidocaine and had no Tylenol in them.

I agree. Just saying Dr. S may have had the same line of reasoning...

You are right, very possible.

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Reply #253 posted 03/17/20 2:37pm

rednblue

authorbest said:

rednblue said:

authorbest said: Thank you for your response. The scenario you describe with Michael Jackson isn’t a suicide. Many people’s lives involve big risks. Many people choose to accept more risk at some phases of their lives than they do at others. That a choice/action is associated with significant risk does not make it a suicide attempt. Or maybe I misunderstand what you are saying. Are you saying that you believe that Michael Jackson asked his doctor to help him end his life? [Edited 3/17/20 12:14pm]

No I don't think that Michael Jackson asked the doctor to end his life. But the drug that Mr. Jackson insisted on being given at home was radically outside normal practice given the nature of the drug that was used. The outcome that resulted was almost something that could be expected.

You have to watch the testiomony in the Conrad Murray trail. No self respecting ethical doctor would have administered this drug outside a clinical setting that had personel and equipment that could watch and monitor Mr. Jackson and his vital signs and would have the ability to address problem in case something went wrong. And given the setting it was only really a matter of time that something would go wrong. It not about taking risks. You just don't given that kind of drug outside a clinical setting. That's it.

MJ was taking other medication at the time too.

I really don't understand why that case went to trial. The Dr. should have asked for a plea deal. But the testimony, especially fromm emergency medical personel, was very riveting and enlightening.



My "risk" comment wasn't about the doctor who, as pointed out elsewhere, was convicted of involuntary manslaughter.

My point is that Michael Jackson (wittingly or unwittingly) put himself at risk in that situation, but this fact does not make for a suicide. People, with no goal of death, put themselves at significant risk all the time.

My question is...do you believe that Michael Jackson attempted to use that (above) treatment to cause his death voluntarily and intentionally? That would be a sort of assisted suicide. Taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally is the definition of a suicide.

This understanding is relevant to your earlier comments on Prince's situation.

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Reply #254 posted 03/17/20 2:41pm

authorbest

rednblue said:

authorbest said:

No I don't think that Michael Jackson asked the doctor to end his life. But the drug that Mr. Jackson insisted on being given at home was radically outside normal practice given the nature of the drug that was used. The outcome that resulted was almost something that could be expected.

You have to watch the testiomony in the Conrad Murray trail. No self respecting ethical doctor would have administered this drug outside a clinical setting that had personel and equipment that could watch and monitor Mr. Jackson and his vital signs and would have the ability to address problem in case something went wrong. And given the setting it was only really a matter of time that something would go wrong. It not about taking risks. You just don't given that kind of drug outside a clinical setting. That's it.

MJ was taking other medication at the time too.

I really don't understand why that case went to trial. The Dr. should have asked for a plea deal. But the testimony, especially fromm emergency medical personel, was very riveting and enlightening.



My "risk" comment wasn't about the doctor who, as pointed out elsewhere, was convicted of involuntary manslaughter.

My point is that Michael Jackson (wittingly or unwittingly) put himself at risk in that situation, but this fact does not make for a suicide. People, with no goal of death, put themselves at significant risk all the time.

My question is...do you believe that Michael Jackson attempted to use that (above) treatment to cause his death voluntarily and intentionally? That would be a sort of assisted suicide. Taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally is the definition of a suicide.

This understanding is relevant to your earlier comments on Prince's situation.

My question is...do you believe that Michael Jackson attempted to use that (above) treatment to cause his death voluntarily and intentionally? That would be a sort of assisted suicide. Taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally is the definition of a suicide.

As I answered above, no I don't believe he consciously intended to cause his death.

I do believe that Prince did.

[Edited 3/17/20 14:43pm]

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Reply #255 posted 03/17/20 3:06pm

rednblue

authorbest said:

rednblue said:



Gonna make a general comment here. Addiction and suicidality aren't mutually exclusive. To the contrary, incidence is increased.

OK.. I can agree with that statement. For example, I believe Michael Jackson's death was also a suicide but not in the same manner as Prince. Michael Jackson was a passive suicide by unethical greedy doctor. Prince's death was active, taken by his own hand and will. Prince knowingly put an abundance of pills in his mouth and swallowed knowing the outcome would be death.

If Prince didn't have access to Fentanyl, I believe a more gruesome method would have occurred to accomplish his task.



I don't want to give you a hard time, but I'm trying to make a point about increased incidence connected to conditions. If we don't understand the definition of the conditions, we can't understand the information.

You said, "Clearly, the concern was some addiction problem. However, in actuality, it was a Prince wanting to end his life problem."

Then I said, "Gonna make a general comment here. Addiction and suicidality aren't mutually exclusive. To the contrary, incidence is increased."

To fully understand that (directly above) statement, we have to understand the definition of the words "suicide" and "suicidality."

I can't know if Prince committed suicide, or if he had serious health conditions beyond addiction (not to say there isn't evidence pointing to possibilities, e.g. depression, as well as conditions in different areas of medicine that other people here could assess far better than I can). If he did have any other serious conditions...they may or may not have had a causal relationship with, or interacted with, the addiction. Also, I'd be more current to say "substance use condition" instead of "addiction."


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Reply #256 posted 03/17/20 9:47pm

ISaidLifeIsJus
tAGame

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It cant be that easy to get a FULL autopsy report released.


I will research case law later.

BTW - Administrative Court???

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Reply #257 posted 03/18/20 5:14am

rednblue

One very recent (February 2020) source to back up what was said in above discussion:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih....MC7035727/


[Edited 3/18/20 5:21am]

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Reply #258 posted 03/18/20 7:48am

authorbest

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:

It cant be that easy to get a FULL autopsy report released.


I will research case law later.

BTW - Administrative Court???

Link to MN statute 13.03 Access To Government Data

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/13.03

Subd. 6 Discoverability of not public data

This paragraph notes an action to compel discovery with appropriate judicial officer, arbitrator, or administrative law judge

However, this is the more specific law with regard to Medical Examiner Data

13.83 Medical Examiner Data

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/13.83

Subd. 7 Court Review

States the District Court located in the County where the Medical Examiner Data is being maintained.

Prince died in Carver County. However, Carver County contracts with the Midwest Medical Examiner located in Anoka County for Medical Examiner Services.

https://www.anokacounty.us/210/Medical-Examiners-Office


So, I don’t know if the proper venue is Carver County or Anoka County or one can file in either county of if the Administrative Law Court is an option.

Here is the Midwest Medical Examiner Press release on the cause of Prince’s death

https://www.anokacounty.us/DocumentCenter/View/10066/Press-Release-June-2-2016?bidId=

The manner of death is accident.

This is the information Contained in the released police files with regard to the amount of Fentanyl In Prince’s system.

Blood level of Fentanyl is 67.8 mcg/l.

(Report of Sgt. DeWitt Meier page 33-39 of Investigative Report #1 PDF

Paragraph 60) & (Report of Det. Chris Nelson page 37-108 of Investigative Report #2 PDF

Paragraph 103)

Dr. Strobl in multiple conversations with supervising detective DeWitt Meier said that she expected stomach contents to have low levels of Fentanyl because of high levels in the blood.

(Report of Sgt. DeWitt Meier page 33-39 of Investigative Report #1 PDF

Paragraph 72)

Actual chemical analysis of the stomach fluids shows “extremely high level” of Fentanyl in the stomach contents leaving no doubt Fentanyl was ingested orally in “pill form”.

(Report of Sgt. DeWitt Meier page 33-39 of Investigative Report #1 PDF

Paragraph 73)

This is the news report that contained leaked information of level of Fentanyl contained in Prince’s body at death including liver and gastric levels not contained in the police files. This article uses milligrams as the unit of measurement for Fentanyl. This is probably an error by the reporter not understanding that Fentanyl is measured in micrograms (mcg). The detail on Prince is contained in paragraph 7.

https://kstp.com/medical/fentanyl-related-overdoses-rising-chicago-dea-lab-chemists-track-drugs-prince-death/4491091/

Fentanyl levels

Liver: 435 mcg

Gastric (stomach): 14,000 mcg

These levels of Fentanyl are not consistent with an accidental overdose. These levels imply that many pills were taken probably in the range of 30-60 pills. Suicide was ruled out immediately and never reconsidered after the Fentanyl level data was reported to the Medical Examiner and Detectives.

See Sherriff speaking on April 22, 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I_p2nrgoKI

I found this abstract which addresses the factors medical examiners and detective should us when considering a death is a suicide. It says along with the factors suicide is often concluded after autopsy when a large concentration of pills are found in the stomach contents.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4411039/

My opinion

Prince was a high-profile public figure. Errors made in the investigation of his death by professionals responsible for discovering the facts is in the public interest. The withholding of autopsy data in this case is shielding those investigators from public scrutiny. If the investigation of this high profile death was mangled how can the public be assured than any death investigation comes to the right conclusion.

I could not find any information that release of autopsy before the 30 years has ever come before the court. But I found the following other cases that may address case law relevant to this case in some manner.

https://kstp.com/kstpImages/repository/cs/files/KSTP%20Ballot%20Lawsuit%20Opinion.pdf

https://www.casemine.com/...493450c2b6

I would also include Judith Hill's statement in any motion. Some excerpts below.

Page 10

“he said a lot of stuff that was kind of hard to hear”

“I’ve never seen him…oh man I enjoy sleeping more these days…maybe it means I’ve done all I’m supposed to do here on this earth”

“you don’t enjoy being here when you’re awake? He’s like no, it’s boring, incredibly boring so he was very kind of depressed.”

Page 11

“He joked about after his first show and he was like, man I thought I was going to fall asleep up there”

“I thought it was very strange”

Page 12

“when he said this the incident hadn’t happened yet on the plane”

“I thought it was weird why would…you never would, like your so in the moment on stage you would never fall asleep…I found it very out of character for him to say something like that”

“that is when he’s most alive is on stage”

“there was a lot of things about the music, a lot of music business…it’s not what it used to be and just kind of discouraged about all that”

Page 31

“that was the mountain top, talking about the Atlanta show, now I can go away and rest”

Page 32

Kirk told Judith after the death that Prince said to Kirk “you know we’re planning these summer shows…If I’m not there you’ll still do it, right?”

Page 33

“it was getting like whoa”

“those are just crazy statements”

Judith is asked if she thinks he is suicidal

“it was fifty-fifty for me”

“he did show…he took the tests”

“but I think that there was a lot of his statements were also like accepting that he might not make it”

[Edited 3/18/20 7:53am]

[Edited 3/18/20 8:03am]

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Reply #259 posted 03/18/20 11:20am

ChocolateBox31
21

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prince

[Edited 3/27/20 12:13pm]

"4 all of us, life is death without adventure,& adventure only comes 2 those who are willing 2 b daring & take chances."prince 1985
"eye feel that we're on the brink of something. It is going 2 B strict and wild and pretty" prince 1986
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Reply #260 posted 03/18/20 11:21am

rdhull

avatar

ChocolateBox3121 said:

Prince(r.i.p.) left "Planet Earth" into "The Afterworld" at the right time with the Covid-19 taking over the universe..

sidddown and be quiet

"Climb in my fur."
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Reply #261 posted 03/18/20 11:52am

rednblue

rdhull said:

ChocolateBox3121 said:

Prince(r.i.p.) left "Planet Earth" into "The Afterworld" at the right time with the Covid-19 taking over the universe..

sidddown and be quiet



siddown, be quiet, and stay home


That's all y'all!

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Reply #262 posted 03/18/20 8:59pm

ISaidLifeIsJus
tAGame

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That case is not on point. It is an absentee voter case, no where near a autopsy/HIPPA case.

Thats all.

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Reply #263 posted 03/19/20 4:45am

Mumio

avatar

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:

PeggyO said:

I just want to say one thing. I know I post alot about this topic and I want to assure everyone, including the Mods, that I really do not know what happened to Prince. I am not trying to push the AIDS diagnosis at all. I do think he had some kind of wasting disease, period. It could have been cancer, who knows?

I am trying to keep the medical part of this discussion as accurate as I know how to. I have felt that there have been important parts of the investigtive reports inaccessible to us so I do question that.

There, IMO, have also been many with little medical background making medically inaccurate statements and taking a crowd with them.

i just hate to see that, it is offensive to me. I am a practicing RN with 25+ years experience, mostly in critical care and case management. I do know how to read labs, I also understand why an MD would order certain tests and what they are looking for. I am not an MD but have to work critically with MD's and am expected to talk to them intelligently. If I do not comprehend my patient's diagnosis and reason for treatment, I am reprimanded.

You learn alot in those years and much is expected, especially in critical care.

Re: Toxicology, that can mean bloodwork, urine, gastric contents etc.

In the 'business' urine toxicology is called UTox.

Something else...Dr S knew that Prince had an addiction, but he still ordered additional tests. He was likely looking for other issues besides drug addiction, ie., cancer,kidney disease, HIV etc.to see if he could treat him.



clapping clapping




yeahthat

Welcome to "the org", Mumio…they can have you, but I'll have your love in the end nod
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Reply #264 posted 03/19/20 6:15am

rednblue

rednblue said:

rdhull said:

sidddown and be quiet



siddown, be quiet, and stay home


That's all y'all!



Sorry. Couldn't resist given Chocolate's reference to what's going on in the world. Didn't want to in any way make light of an international and desperate medical situation. Was my attempt at gallows humor.

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Reply #265 posted 03/19/20 2:57pm

PeggyO

Mumio said:

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:



clapping clapping




yeahthat

Thanks for the support, however this is a lost cause for a number of reasons.

I think I sent an org note.

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Reply #266 posted 03/20/20 4:29am

udo

avatar

PeggyO said:

Thou shall not inquire.

.

Bullshit. Do you practice that rule in your own life?

The Prince we knew was a public figure despite whatever.

We must know what went on that caused his death.

Pills and thrills and daffodils will kill... If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.
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Reply #267 posted 03/20/20 10:06am

ChocolateBox31
21

avatar

rdhull said:

ChocolateBox3121 said:

Prince(r.i.p.) left "Planet Earth" into "The Afterworld" at the right time with the Covid-19 taking over the universe..

sidddown and be quiet

That's what Prince(r.i.p.) should have said to U, instead of inviting to his 3121 house party.

"4 all of us, life is death without adventure,& adventure only comes 2 those who are willing 2 b daring & take chances."prince 1985
"eye feel that we're on the brink of something. It is going 2 B strict and wild and pretty" prince 1986
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Reply #268 posted 03/27/20 11:46am

leec1

ChocolateBox3121 said:

rdhull said:

sidddown and be quiet

That's what Prince(r.i.p.) should have said to U, instead of inviting to his 3121 house party.

ChocolateBox3121: I don't understand how you would make such snarky comments about the Corona Virus in light of how many people have suffered... This is inexcusable.

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Reply #269 posted 03/27/20 12:12pm

ChocolateBox31
21

avatar

leec1 said:

ChocolateBox3121 said:

That's what Prince(r.i.p.) should have said to U, instead of inviting to his 3121 house party.

ChocolateBox3121: I don't understand how you would make such snarky comments about the Corona Virus in light of how many people have suffered... This is inexcusable.

No offence to the many people all over the world suffering from COVID-19. My prayers are with them and their families...pray pray

"4 all of us, life is death without adventure,& adventure only comes 2 those who are willing 2 b daring & take chances."prince 1985
"eye feel that we're on the brink of something. It is going 2 B strict and wild and pretty" prince 1986
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