PeggyO said:

Several of us keep reminding folks that when P met with Dr S. in his last week

when asked about pain, he did not complain of hip pain; he mentioned other discomforts. He also did not walk with a cane nor did walk with a limp in the video the day before he died.

That's not how hip pain works, espcially in the case where a medical procedure didn't fix a problem. You can feel relatively okay one day, then be in extreme discomfort with bone rubbing the next. You don't need to walk with a cane or limp in public for eiher of those scenarios. Arthritic pains can happen at any time even if you're having a relatively okay week.

The story about the Dr., if it happened, is inconsistent, but pain is pain and the source of pain isn't always where you feel the pain. What you appear to be doing is speculating that he had no hip pain, but was either treating another pain or inventing a story to get pain killers. There's no basis for fans to pretend to know those specifics.

By all accounts he was hooked on the pills, so if the implication is that there was no correlation between taking the pills and experiencing pain, then sure, that's likely true if he was battling addiction. That doesn't mean we know if he also had real pain management in his life. Playing detective has it's limits.

[Edited 3/7/20 13:38pm]

[Edited 3/7/20 13:38pm]

lavendardrummachine said:

PeggyO said:

Several of us keep reminding folks that when P met with Dr S. in his last week

when asked about pain, he did not complain of hip pain; he mentioned other discomforts. He also did not walk with a cane nor did walk with a limp in the video the day before he died.

That's not how hip pain works, espcially in the case where a medical procedure didn't fix a problem. You can feel relatively okay one day, then be in extreme discomfort with bone rubbing the next. You don't need to walk with a cane or limp in public for eiher of those scenarios. Arthritic pains can happen at any time even if you're having a relatively okay week.

The story about the Dr., if it happened, is inconsistent, but pain is pain and the source of pain isn't always where you feel the pain. What you appear to be doing is speculating that he had no hip pain, but was either treating another pain or inventing a story to get pain killers. There's no basis for fans to pretend to know those specifics.

By all accounts he was hooked on the pills, so if the implication is that there was no correlation between taking the pills and experiencing pain, then sure, that's likely true if he was battling addiction. That doesn't mean we know if he also had real pain management in his life. Playing detective has it's limits.

[Edited 3/7/20 13:38pm]

[Edited 3/7/20 13:38pm]

He likely took pills for a number of reasons...

I have things to do.

rogifan said:

jfenster said:

why wont any of his flunkies talk about the situation????

[Edited 3/7/20 12:24pm]

Because it's none of our business.

.

You may think so but their inactions allowed things to happen.

This took Prince away from us.

So they need to do some explaining for sure.

udo said:

datdude said:

this is my story and i'm stickin' to it.

.

Sure you can.

Even the OP chose to spread this meme that is besides the facts.

Whats one of these discounting fact? Just one.

udo said:

rogifan said:

Because it's none of our business.

.

You may think so but their inactions allowed things to happen.

This took Prince away from us.

So they need to do some explaining for sure.

Well I'm not sure who you're referring to but nobody owes us anything. Oh and Prince didn't belong to us either. Just because you're a fan of a famous person doesn't mean they belong to you.

rogifan said:

udo said:

.

You may think so but their inactions allowed things to happen.

This took Prince away from us.

So they need to do some explaining for sure.

Well I'm not sure who you're referring to but nobody owes us anything. Oh and Prince didn't belong to us either. Just because you're a fan of a famous person doesn't mean they belong to you.

I think the implications is some people didn't just look he other way, or enable it in an inncoent way, they engaged in or aided in illegal behavior that contributed to a death, either on purpose or just through negligence, and they have the information that would put an end to all the lunacy displayed in every topic surrounding the circumstances of his death.

I'm pretty certain there are 10-20 (or more) folks who know exactly how it went down.

lavendardrummachine said:

I think the implications is some people didn't just look he other way, or enable it in an inncoent way, they engaged in or aided in illegal behavior that contributed to a death, either on purpose or just through negligence, and they have the information that would put an end to all the lunacy displayed in every topic surrounding the circumstances of his death.

[Edited 3/8/20 18:58pm]

PeggyO said:

I'm pretty certain there are 10-20 (or more) folks who know exactly how it went down.

I have no idea. As much as his inner circle respected his privacy and him, they've all shown gossipy sides. The 10-20 people have associates and friends who would have heard things.

I would guess within a certain circle that's not the org, it's a poorly kept secret. The investigators, or business people brought in at the beginning would have got some scoop too.

We could talk more about who those 10 people might be, but I'm guessing you have a crosswalk to go monitor.

lavendardrummachine said:

rogifan said:

Well I'm not sure who you're referring to but nobody owes us anything. Oh and Prince didn't belong to us either. Just because you're a fan of a famous person doesn't mean they belong to you.

I think the implications is some people didn't just look he other way, or enable it in an inncoent way, they engaged in or aided in illegal behavior that contributed to a death, either on purpose or just through negligence, and they have the information that would put an end to all the lunacy displayed in every topic surrounding the circumstances of his death.

And? They're not obliged to share with anyone. If Prince wanted us to know about his struggles he would have shared with the public. He didn't. Topics surrounding the circumstances of his death are just people being nosey.

rogifan said:

And? They're not obliged to share with anyone. If Prince wanted us to know about his struggles he would have shared with the public. He didn't. Topics surrounding the circumstances of his death are just people being nosey.

Are you really keeping your interests in Prince limited to what he wanted you to know? Doubt it.

The topic comes up for a reason, and I wasn't the one bringing it up. Since there's a lot of false information, it's hard not to recognize that it would be healing for a lot of people to know what happened, and hot it got to this point, since the official version still involves a lot of mystery.


And anyway, the question isn't why these people aren't on the org telling us, it's a question of whether or not they were complicit in his death somehow, and whether or not close associates broke the law, and how...even if they did it because he asked. Another group knew and didn't intervene. That's what is getting discussed.

He did shows when he should have been in rehab. It leaves some big questions on the table. You can't be upset that some fans are critical minded and astute.

Oh, and last but not least...they are obliged so share it with the officials tasked with investigating, and that sort of thing.

[Edited 3/8/20 19:55pm]

lavendardrummachine said:

rogifan said:

And? They're not obliged to share with anyone. If Prince wanted us to know about his struggles he would have shared with the public. He didn't. Topics surrounding the circumstances of his death are just people being nosey.

Are you really keeping your interests in Prince limited to what he wanted you to know? Doubt it.

The topic comes up for a reason, and I wasn't the one bringing it up. Since there's a lot of false information, it's hard not to recognize that it would be healing for a lot of people to know what happened, and hot it got to this point, since the official version still involves a lot of mystery.


And anyway, the question isn't why these people aren't on the org telling us, it's a question of whether or not they were complicit in his death somehow, and whether or not close associates broke the law, and how...even if they did it because he asked. Another group knew and didn't intervene. That's what is getting discussed.

He did shows when he should have been in rehab. It leaves some big questions on the table. You can't be upset that some fans are critical minded and astute.

Oh, and last but not least...they are obliged so share it with the officials tasked with investigating, and that sort of thing.

[Edited 3/8/20 19:55pm]

"it would be healing for a lot of people to know what happened, and how it got to this point, since the official version still involves a lot of mystery."

Somehow we always end up here. This might be cold, but the bottom line is no one with the estate, family, associates, law enforcement has an obligation to help fans heal or find closure. There was an investigation. If that investigation found someone committed a crime then they should be dealt with accordingly by law enforcement. As far as I know no associate was charged with any crime related to Prince's death.

lavendardrummachine said:

PeggyO said:

Several of us keep reminding folks that when P met with Dr S. in his last week

when asked about pain, he did not complain of hip pain; he mentioned other discomforts. He also did not walk with a cane nor did walk with a limp in the video the day before he died.

That's not how hip pain works, espcially in the case where a medical procedure didn't fix a problem. You can feel relatively okay one day, then be in extreme discomfort with bone rubbing the next. You don't need to walk with a cane or limp in public for eiher of those scenarios. Arthritic pains can happen at any time even if you're having a relatively okay week.

The story about the Dr., if it happened, is inconsistent, but pain is pain and the source of pain isn't always where you feel the pain. What you appear to be doing is speculating that he had no hip pain, but was either treating another pain or inventing a story to get pain killers. There's no basis for fans to pretend to know those specifics.

By all accounts he was hooked on the pills, so if the implication is that there was no correlation between taking the pills and experiencing pain, then sure, that's likely true if he was battling addiction. That doesn't mean we know if he also had real pain management in his life. Playing detective has it's limits.

[Edited 3/7/20 13:38pm]

[Edited 3/7/20 13:38pm]

I have a hard time thinking that if someone needed the level of opiates Prince took on the plane and it was for pain, that he wouldn't be in some degree of pain 24/7. He was a tiny person and needed a heck of a lot of Narcan to reverse the effects of the pills he took. I don't see how Moline was just about pain. And, if it was, I don't know how he could feel totally normal one minute and needing Narcan the next for hip pain. (Or hand pain)

[Edited 3/9/20 9:19am]

rogifan said:

Somehow we always end up here. This might be cold, but the bottom line is no one with the estate, family, associates, law enforcement has an obligation to help fans heal or find closure. There was an investigation. If that investigation found someone committed a crime then they should be dealt with accordingly by law enforcement. As far as I know no associate was charged with any crime related to Prince's death.

Well why wouldn't we keep ending up there? The official story, accepted as face value, is still baffling, and incomplete with unanswered questions.

And Prince's death had a profound effect on people.


Don't know why you're defending the Estate or family, as if anyone is attacking them.... there is a moral obligation and also a legal obligation to authorities, who work for the people to find truth and justice on our dime. They haven't determined there's a crime here, but it doesn't mean all the questions have been answered or the full story was ever disclosed. But there's a story there. Leaving it up to fans to connect dots or read between the lines makes it worse, and the perception isn't that any of this protects Prince, it protects his associates who should have helped him.

Though I will say, helping fans heal is just smart business, otherwise people get preoccupied with the questions, and it will turn into a "Tupac is alive", "Did Elvis fake his death", "Who shot Kennedy". I don't think Paisley Park will ever be Graceland either.

iamafan said:

I don't see how Moline was just about pain. And, if it was, I don't know how he could feel totally normal one minute and needing Narcan the next for hip pain. (Or hand pain)

[Edited 3/9/20 9:19am]

I don't claim to have any of this figured out, but my point has been that it's not always an either/or situation.

Pain management that turns to addiction (or rather, addiction masked as pain management, if that was the case) is typically a chicken or the egg thing.

He complained about pain, and the story is he was trying to regulate that pain. He was clearly addicted and had a high tolerance. I mean, it's even possible he was doing more shows just to justify popping pills...that would be consistent with pill addiction too.

I googled Moline, and I'm not coming up with anything, but we know he was taking pills he shouldn't have been.

[Edited 3/9/20 12:02pm]

ChocolateBox3121 said:

jfenster said:

why wont any of his flunkies talk about the situation????

[Edited 3/7/20 12:24pm]

cant see...

lavendardrummachine said:

rogifan said:

And? They're not obliged to share with anyone. If Prince wanted us to know about his struggles he would have shared with the public. He didn't. Topics surrounding the circumstances of his death are just people being nosey.

Are you really keeping your interests in Prince limited to what he wanted you to know? Doubt it.

The topic comes up for a reason, and I wasn't the one bringing it up. Since there's a lot of false information, it's hard not to recognize that it would be healing for a lot of people to know what happened, and hot it got to this point, since the official version still involves a lot of mystery.


And anyway, the question isn't why these people aren't on the org telling us, it's a question of whether or not they were complicit in his death somehow, and whether or not close associates broke the law, and how...even if they did it because he asked. Another group knew and didn't intervene. That's what is getting discussed.

He did shows when he should have been in rehab. It leaves some big questions on the table. You can't be upset that some fans are critical minded and astute.

Oh, and last but not least...they are obliged so share it with the officials tasked with investigating, and that sort of thing.

[Edited 3/8/20 19:55pm]

this is iwhat i was getting at....tired of ....well it aint our business type answers

lavendardrummachine said:

rogifan said:

Somehow we always end up here. This might be cold, but the bottom line is no one with the estate, family, associates, law enforcement has an obligation to help fans heal or find closure. There was an investigation. If that investigation found someone committed a crime then they should be dealt with accordingly by law enforcement. As far as I know no associate was charged with any crime related to Prince's death.

Well why wouldn't we keep ending up there? The official story, accepted as face value, is still baffling, and incomplete with unanswered questions.

And Prince's death had a profound effect on people.


Don't know why you're defending the Estate or family, as if anyone is attacking them.... there is a moral obligation and also a legal obligation to authorities, who work for the people to find truth and justice on our dime. They haven't determined there's a crime here, but it doesn't mean all the questions have been answered or the full story was ever disclosed. But there's a story there. Leaving it up to fans to connect dots or read between the lines makes it worse, and the perception isn't that any of this protects Prince, it protects his associates who should have helped him.

Though I will say, helping fans heal is just smart business, otherwise people get preoccupied with the questions, and it will turn into a "Tupac is alive", "Did Elvis fake his death", "Who shot Kennedy". I don't think Paisley Park will ever be Graceland either.

No there is not. There is no legal obligation for anyone to provide fans answers or closure. Besides no matter what "answer" someone provided fans wouldn't believe it anyway. Prince kept his private life private when he was alive. If he wanted us to know about his struggles he would have shared them when he was alive.

rogifan said:

No there is not. There is no legal obligation for anyone to provide fans answers or closure. Besides no matter what "answer" someone provided fans wouldn't believe it anyway. Prince kept his private life private when he was alive. If he wanted us to know about his struggles he would have shared them when he was alive.

Is that what you think I just said?

My post was pretty clear.

Prince's privacy was breached left and right. People here have talked about the kind of underpants the man did or didn't wear. We know who did his hair. That's not standard.

He didn't sanction music we listen to, books we read, or events we're going to attend. Did you look at the police photos of his residence? I did. So let's stop pretending anyone can protect Prince's reputation at this point by withholding information or that anyone is above wanting to know the real behind the scenes scoop or that any of us are above dipping into his privacy. Telling fans to stop asking questions or holding people responsible for witholding info, not just to the public, but to law enforcement, is unrealistic, and maybe even a touch hypocritical.

Sure, some fans will always have fringe ideas, but like I said, even when you accept what we know at face value, there are major questions that reasonable people still have.

rogifan said:

lavendardrummachine said:

Well why wouldn't we keep ending up there? The official story, accepted as face value, is still baffling, and incomplete with unanswered questions.

And Prince's death had a profound effect on people.


Don't know why you're defending the Estate or family, as if anyone is attacking them.... there is a moral obligation and also a legal obligation to authorities, who work for the people to find truth and justice on our dime. They haven't determined there's a crime here, but it doesn't mean all the questions have been answered or the full story was ever disclosed. But there's a story there. Leaving it up to fans to connect dots or read between the lines makes it worse, and the perception isn't that any of this protects Prince, it protects his associates who should have helped him.

Though I will say, helping fans heal is just smart business, otherwise people get preoccupied with the questions, and it will turn into a "Tupac is alive", "Did Elvis fake his death", "Who shot Kennedy". I don't think Paisley Park will ever be Graceland either.

No there is not. There is no legal obligation for anyone to provide fans answers or closure. Besides no matter what "answer" someone provided fans wouldn't believe it anyway. Prince kept his private life private when he was alive. If he wanted us to know about his struggles he would have shared them when he was alive.

Most celebrities who have died under mysterious conditions or may have been less than forthcoming

about their issues have surviving families or surrogates who have taken the more transparent

approach with the public/ fanbase re: the cause of death. And none of them have suffered reputationally, IMO.

I can name 10+ right off the top of my head who had unfortunate endings or troubled lives but the family decided to disclose.

I actually think Prince's death has been most shrouded.

Most people know something is up.

IMO, he does not have a strong family member or representative who would have the courage/integrity to put this to rest.

There have been so many "ball-droppings", I have lost count.

[Edited 3/9/20 21:14pm]

[Edited 3/9/20 21:16pm]

rogifan said:

No there is not. There is no legal obligation for anyone to provide fans answers or closure.

.

Moral obligations will be ignored by the thugs of this earth.

So why start about laws?

When something is illegal it does not imply that it is bad.

And not all bad things are illegal.

So please stay on the moral path.

PeggyO said:

rogifan said:

No there is not. There is no legal obligation for anyone to provide fans answers or closure. Besides no matter what "answer" someone provided fans wouldn't believe it anyway. Prince kept his private life private when he was alive. If he wanted us to know about his struggles he would have shared them when he was alive.

Most celebrities who have died under mysterious conditions or may have been less than forthcoming

about their issues have surviving families or surrogates who have taken the more transparent

approach with the public/ fanbase re: the cause of death. And none of them have suffered reputationally, IMO.

I can name 10+ right off the top of my head who had unfortunate endings or troubled lives but the family decided to disclose.

I actually think Prince's death has been most shrouded.

Most people know something is up.

IMO, he does not have a strong family member or representative who would have the courage/integrity to put this to rest.

There have been so many "ball-droppings", I have lost count.

[Edited 3/9/20 21:14pm]

[Edited 3/9/20 21:16pm]

Prince wasn't most celebrities. There are things about Prince we'll never know/understand. I'm sure the same can be said for MJ. And Whitney fans are still trying to figure out how/why she got so messed up with drugs. The fact is the people with the answers are no longer here. The answers people really want about Prince could only come from him.

[Edited 3/10/20 5:01am]

udo said:

rogifan said:

No there is not. There is no legal obligation for anyone to provide fans answers or closure.

.

Moral obligations will be ignored by the thugs of this earth.

So why start about laws?

When something is illegal it does not imply that it is bad.

And not all bad things are illegal.

So please stay on the moral path.

I don't think KJ or anyone else has a moral obligation to speak. They don't belong to us just like Prince didn't.

rogifan said:

udo said:

So please stay on the moral path.

I don't think KJ or anyone else has a moral obligation to speak. They don't belong to us just like Prince didn't.

.

Their (in)action killed Prince.

Prince might have been 'odd' or out of his mind for this part of a persona but his environment should have picked up some clues and should have acted on these clues.

Especially Kirk as a personal assistant.

Kirk Johnson doesn not want to talk so he has no role that shines in moral correctness is my conclusion.

Enough with the stigma, please!

If people want to bring in moral issues, how about stigmatizing people with substance use disorders, as well as their close friends and loved ones? Whatever the full story here, addiction was involved. There aren't tons of marches for addiction (a heartless condition like some other serious, somethimes deadly, chronic conditions), marches that support research and honor the struggle of those affected and their close friends and family members. Much more common is for all of these people to get yelled at and judged. Stigma is about hiding and shame. The stigma in the culture is an enemy of openness.

We can add to the moral concerns the really messed up involvement of legality and prison terms (just take a look at some of the characteristics of the prison population in the U.S.) with medical issues.

We can also add the messed up involvement of profit motives in substance use conditions. Here's an example:

https://www.statnews.com/...treatment/

https://www.statnews.com/2019/12/02/purdue-richard-sackler-proposed-plan-play-down-oxycontin-risks/

Horrible stuff.

udo said:

rogifan said:

I don't think KJ or anyone else has a moral obligation to speak. They don't belong to us just like Prince didn't.

.

Their (in)action killed Prince.

Prince might have been 'odd' or out of his mind for this part of a persona but his environment should have picked up some clues and should have acted on these clues.

Especially Kirk as a personal assistant.

Kirk Johnson doesn not want to talk so he has no role that shines in moral correctness is my conclusion.

Wrong. Prince killed Prince.

Genesia said:

udo said:

.

Their (in)action killed Prince.

Prince might have been 'odd' or out of his mind for this part of a persona but his environment should have picked up some clues and should have acted on these clues.

Especially Kirk as a personal assistant.

Kirk Johnson doesn not want to talk so he has no role that shines in moral correctness is my conclusion.

Wrong. Prince killed Prince.

.

So you completely dismiss anybody in the neighborhood that could have seen something was wrong?

Weird view of reality that is.

They got paid to take care of things, care of Prince.

They ignored that part of the job.

udo said:

Genesia said:

Wrong. Prince killed Prince.

.

So you completely dismiss anybody in the neighborhood that could have seen something was wrong?

Weird view of reality that is.

They got paid to take care of things, care of Prince.

They ignored that part of the job.

Dude, there is a Grand Canyon's worth of difference between seeing that something is wrong and - as you said in the post I replied to, "Their (in)action killed Prince."

They were not being paid to take care of Prince. They were being paid to perform, or (in Kirk's case) to manage a facility, act as chauffeur, and carry luggage.

Prince's life was his own responsibility - no one else's.

Genesia said:

udo said:

.

So you completely dismiss anybody in the neighborhood that could have seen something was wrong?

Weird view of reality that is.

They got paid to take care of things, care of Prince.

They ignored that part of the job.

Dude, there is a Grand Canyon's worth of difference between seeing that something is wrong and - as you said in the post I replied to, "Their (in)action killed Prince."

.

A canyon?

A phonecall could have been enough.

.

They were not being paid to take care of Prince. They were being paid to perform, or (in Kirk's case) to manage a facility, act as chauffeur, and carry luggage.

.

So what else did Kirk do for free?

.

He was paid.

He was very close.

He was there for long times.

He was there often.

.

Prince's life was his own responsibility - no one else's.

.

Sure, that is a dogma that is especially true when we already knew he had no doctor-patient relationship.

When people know that they must take responsibility.

They did not.

^^Since you fucked up the quote string.

A phone call wouldn't have done ANYTHING. Who do you think they should have called? Are you suggesting someone should have attempted a 5150 - an involuntary commitment - on PRINCE?!

Lemme hip you to a little something: in the United States, it is almost impossible to force someone into treatment against their wishes. First, there has to be obvious, ongoing impairment - repeated hospitalizations, a clear and imminent danger to the person or those around them, and even if successful, even if the person doesn't fight you every step of the way, it takes a long, long time. By any measure, Prince did not meet the impairment standard. He was still working and performing.

The rest of your post is just bullshit. Kirk was not responsible for forcing Prince into treatment nor were any of the other people who worked for him. For one thing, they did not have the legal standing to do so.

You're just looking for someone to blame.

[Edited 3/10/20 9:37am]

Genesia said:

^^Since you fucked up the quote string.

A phone call wouldn't have done ANYTHING. Who do you think they should have called? Are you suggesting someone should have attempted a 5150 - an involuntary commitment - on PRINCE?!

Lemme hip you to a little something: in the United States, it is almost impossible to force someone into treatment against their wishes. First, there has to be obvious, ongoing impairment - repeated hospitalizations, a clear and imminent danger to the person or those around them, and even if successful, even if the person doesn't fight you every step of the way, it takes a long, long time. By any measure, Prince did not meet the impairment standard. He was still working and performing.

The rest of your post is just bullshit. Kirk was not responsible for forcing Prince into treatment nor were any of the other people who worked for him. For one thing, they did not have the legal standing to do so.

You're just looking for someone to blame.

[Edited 3/10/20 9:37am]

I totally agree, Prince was responsible for himself. Everyone knows that if you didn't do what he said, you were out. I don't know how anyone COULD take care of Prince. Also, Prince was supposed to be going to treatment the next day, so what more could they have done? (Or at least treatment was arranged.) Hell, he basically gave a verbal suicide note to Judith Hill. Do you think if she tried to force him into treatment that he would have gone? I believe he would have walked away and possibly ended their friendship. (I am not blaming JH in the least by the way. Hindsight is 20/20 and he was on a path he chose regardless- in my opinion.)

I think KJ, Meron,Phaedra etc are being loyal to their employer, and in the case of KJ/Meron, most likely covering up a few things. Not saying murder, but cleaning Prince up, etc. And of course, the document shredding.

I hate that Prince is dead and it is still shocking. The image he projected was one of perfect health and self-restraint. It appears that was a ruse. Regardless, he impacted each out lives in different ways, and it is human nature to want closure. If I knew he had cancer would it give me closure? Probably not. What bothers me the most is that he was suffering, even if there were ways he could alleviate it. It just feels unsettling (to me) that things were so different than I thought, and that it all ended the way it did.

Sorry for the rambling