My personal history with Prince's music is this...

Crazy fan in the 80s and 90s. I had kids in the late 90s and couldn't play much of his music around my kids because of inappropriate lyrics, so I lost track of Prince. Went to his concerts still and got Musicology at one of his concerts. Don't think I bought an album of his after Musicology as I never heard songs on the radio so I wasn't drawn in by anything.

So, my thought on what killed his career is lack of airplay after the 90s. (I'm in Detroit, can't speak for the rest of the country.) Did his 'style' of music start to lack relevance? Possibly. I miss the music of all kind of great artists from the 80s and 90s, including Luther Vandross, Johnny Gill, and others. I believe someone else mentioned that many other artists lost relevance from that same timeframe like Madonna, Springsteen, etc. Did the name change affect his appeal? I have no idea. I was a huge fan and thought the whole thing was stupid. But I still bought his music and enjoyed it.

Just like the snews industry has consolidated to the hands of 5 billionaires, the music end of corporate media deflated at least a decade before. The vapid garbage that is labeled music these days is driven by billionaires boosting sales of their pet project which have little to no real authentic drivers. But the rancid stuff folks are limited and forced to hear on the radio, reality teevee shows, and gets charted is nothing like the public could hear in the 80s or even more so in the 70s and 60s.

We have more options now. The old business model is dead. But Prince’s prolific output is well suited for a free market where fans can pick and choose what works best for us with little middleman.

There are no music middlemen gobbling all the profits these days.

iamafan said:

My personal history with Prince's music is this...

Crazy fan in the 80s and 90s. I had kids in the late 90s and couldn't play much of his music around my kids because of inappropriate lyrics, so I lost track of Prince. Went to his concerts still and got Musicology at one of his concerts. Don't think I bought an album of his after Musicology as I never heard songs on the radio so I wasn't drawn in by anything.

So, my thought on what killed his career is lack of airplay after the 90s. (I'm in Detroit, can't speak for the rest of the country.) Did his 'style' of music start to lack relevance? Possibly. I miss the music of all kind of great artists from the 80s and 90s, including Luther Vandross, Johnny Gill, and others. I believe someone else mentioned that many other artists lost relevance from that same timeframe like Madonna, Springsteen, etc. Did the name change affect his appeal? I have no idea. I was a huge fan and thought the whole thing was stupid. But I still bought his music and enjoyed it.

luv4u said:

The name change allowed him to do what he wanted and be free to create. Genius move.

-

and then he started to fuck it up

-

midlife crisis (maybe, i'm not an expert)

religious influences

the pop and rock lanscape changed

he was no longer in the game

after stardom, the fall

hoping for a 'come back' like on the charts and in his wallet

stubbornness

religious influences

trying to fit in with some trends

bad business decisions

fanbase troubles

unfullfilled promisses (releases, npg club memberships etc)

live shows play lists wer the same with every new tour, barely new album tracks played

religious influences

mising the boat on starting remasterig his older albums in an early stage

banning parts of his lyrics

attacking bootleggers (it's how his management did it, they didn't won anything with that move)

the youtube mistake

treating Wendy & Lisa wrong (gay thing)

religious influences

etc

-

all this is my own humble opinion

-

Vannormal said:

luv4u said:

The name change allowed him to do what he wanted and be free to create. Genius move.

-

and then he started to fuck it up

-

midlife crisis (maybe, i'm not an expert)

religious influences

the pop and rock lanscape changed

he was no longer in the game

after stardom, the fall

hoping for a 'come back' like on the charts and in his wallet

stubbornness

religious influences

trying to fit in with some trends

bad business decisions

fanbase troubles

unfullfilled promisses (releases, npg club memberships etc)

live shows play lists wer the same with every new tour, barely new album tracks played

religious influences

mising the boat on starting remasterig his older albums in an early stage

banning parts of his lyrics

attacking bootleggers (it's how his management did it, they didn't won anything with that move)

the youtube mistake

treating Wendy & Lisa wrong (gay thing)

religious influences

etc

-

all this is my own humble opinion

-

Once again, there's a also the possibility of not knowing how to handle all the freedom he gained. There's quite a few artists out there who get more creative and curious when the feel restricted - as strange as that might sound. But that's not just true for artists. Most people dream of more personal freedom, but once its gained they're searching for straps to hold on to.

Vannormal said:

luv4u said:

The name change allowed him to do what he wanted and be free to create. Genius move.

-

and then he started to fuck it up

-

midlife crisis (maybe, i'm not an expert)

religious influences

the pop and rock lanscape changed

he was no longer in the game

after stardom, the fall

hoping for a 'come back' like on the charts and in his wallet

stubbornness

religious influences

trying to fit in with some trends

bad business decisions

fanbase troubles

unfullfilled promisses (releases, npg club memberships etc)

live shows play lists wer the same with every new tour, barely new album tracks played

religious influences

mising the boat on starting remasterig his older albums in an early stage

banning parts of his lyrics

attacking bootleggers (it's how his management did it, they didn't won anything with that move)

the youtube mistake

treating Wendy & Lisa wrong (gay thing)

religious influences

etc

-

all this is my own humble opinion

-

you forgot the big one: he fell in love and married. It ruins most men

[Edited 1/5/20 11:33am]

christobole said:

pdiddy2011 said:

IstenSzek said:

1. prince burned a lot of bridges, pissed off a lot of people and didn't care.

2. prince could have had hits regardless, if he'd been willing to play the game a certain way.

3. prince did not play anyone's game unless he felt like it.

4. prince then tried exactly what everyone was suggesting (rave), but on his terms.

5. prince realised a fusion between 'what i want and what they want' didn't work, got frustrated and said 'fuck it'

6. prince went on to make 17 years worth of amazing music, gaining more and more respect.

7. the world will catch up to prince sometime in the future, it will just take some more time.

8. singles and recordsales are dead for almost everyone over 40, give or take a few people, who play the game, so, see # '3.'

IMHO I agree with much of this. I think after so long without charting or getting airplay or awards Prince was like, "I make a great living and I am considered a living legend." Who really cares about charts anymore?

I agree with a lot of this too.

Plus Prince was always, besides Purple Rain, a PR nightmare.

Prince never seemed to care about his legacy while he was alive.

I see it now in how the public percieves him.

I'm thinking of the "black-ish" tribute a year or so ago.

A hot show like that should have an impact, but take a look at the views for the vignets(sp) they did of Prince songs.

Pitiful!

I remember back when the year 1999 finally came and I was foolishly wondering if Prince would temporarily mend fences with WB to make "1999" the PR no-brainer juggernuat it so obviously was. I was expecting a media blitz.

Nothing.

Decisions like that are what make posthumous releases fall by the wayside after a week.

It's not enough to be good at what you do. I see now that PR and good will are even more important as far as building a legacy is concerned.

Morgaine said:

christobole said:

Yes, I'm a fan of his 80s work - in fact, I can't think of a single pop-musician with the same level of creativity, artistry and virtuosity. However, I can't ignore the context of the following 25 years of largely uninspired and uninspiring craftsmanship, no matter how much instrumental prowess may have been displayed. Instead of evolving as an artist, he regressed into demonstrating his proficiency with well-established pop idioms - a conservatism that was sharply mirrored by many of the things he uttered in later interviews. The curious innovator died long before 2016.

And you've done what? Lol never mind not worth it. Have a nice life.

It's smart, well-informed people like you that make this forum such a delight to engage in - Bart Van Hemelen knows what I'm talking about!

nonesuch said:

Vannormal said:

-

and then he started to fuck it up

-

midlife crisis (maybe, i'm not an expert)

religious influences

the pop and rock lanscape changed

he was no longer in the game

after stardom, the fall

hoping for a 'come back' like on the charts and in his wallet

stubbornness

religious influences

trying to fit in with some trends

bad business decisions

fanbase troubles

unfullfilled promisses (releases, npg club memberships etc)

live shows play lists wer the same with every new tour, barely new album tracks played

religious influences

mising the boat on starting remasterig his older albums in an early stage

banning parts of his lyrics

attacking bootleggers (it's how his management did it, they didn't won anything with that move)

the youtube mistake

treating Wendy & Lisa wrong (gay thing)

religious influences

etc

-

all this is my own humble opinion

-

Once again, there's a also the possibility of not knowing how to handle all the freedom he gained. There's quite a few artists out there who get more creative and curious when the feel restricted - as strange as that might sound. But that's not just true for artists. Most people dream of more personal freedom, but once its gained they're searching for straps to hold on to.

-

I agree on that one.

There's no training, no school to learn how to behave while being famous.

And like you say, freedom indeed is very very very difficult to handle.

I absoutely agree on that.

And no, it doesn't sound strange.

-

His friendships were different too.

The friendships he had with the 'girls' in the 80s, basically never happend again (from what we can read and stated by those around him, back then and later on).

It seemed like after he became big, his friends, good friends were mostly on his payroll.

Enough said.

I certainly don't want to walk a mile in any star's shoes.

-

TheFman said:

Vannormal said:

-

...

-

you forgot the big one: he fell in love and married. It ruins most men

[Edited 1/5/20 11:33am]

-

Twice !

)

-

christobole said:

Yes, I'm a fan of his 80s work - in fact, I can't think of a single pop-musician with the same level of creativity, artistry and virtuosity. However, I can't ignore the context of the following 25 years of largely uninspired and uninspiring craftsmanship, no matter how much instrumental prowess may have been displayed. Instead of evolving as an artist, he regressed into demonstrating his proficiency with well-established pop idioms - a conservatism that was sharply mirrored by many of the things he uttered in later interviews. The curious innovator died long before 2016.

-

I agree on all levels.

-

What you basically say is that he had a very high levels of all sorts.

Thàt in itself, is very impossible to keep up with.

His biggest competition was himself not to forget, on many levels; musically, personally, spiritually, etc. Being too competitive can be disturbing and weakening.

The most uninspired years started somehow with the name change (however, it was very daring and original. but it lasted too long), while he just signed a 100 milion contract.

The industry attack etc, was OK but also too long, too pretentious and came too much too often to the fore. At the same time, he was a pioneer in al this for sure.

I remember at one point he was almost only known for Purple Rain and the dispute/fighting with WB, and there I lost him completly. Not to forget the unsmart words about Wendy & Lisa and their sexuality later on in his career, killed it for me completely. He drifted towards a very conservative religeous shore and couldn't swim back.

-

Somehow, for me it all started after Grafitti Bridge, with the New Power Generation, a name that I still don't like up to this day; The NPG. But that's a personal opinion of course, I know.

He lost a lot of 'feel' and 'soul' and 'involvement' like he had with his previous two bands, The Revolution and the Lovesexy/SOTT band.

He did not evolve much. He indeed became conservative in many ways.

His good and close friendships died along the way too.

Those from the 80's with the three girls, etc, all of a sudden were smahed, nearly like ignored. The friends he had in the nineties and on were mostly people on his payroll, enough said.

-

His freedom actually created new chains; being on the top, and being alone.

And we all know that it can be very lonely at the top (of it all).

-

''Musicology'' wasn't really the big come back commercially. It was good for a while, but then again, it turned back around.

'Hit 'n Run, Phase I', or 'Phase II', how often do most people/fans (here) listen to it ?

Planet Earth ? ''20TEN'' ?

''3121'' ?

''The SLaughterhouse''?

''Lotusflow3r" ?

"MPLSound" ?

"The Chocolate Invasion"?

-

christobole said:

Yes, I'm a fan of his 80s work - in fact, I can't think of a single pop-musician with the same level of creativity, artistry and virtuosity. However, I can't ignore the context of the following 25 years of largely uninspired and uninspiring craftsmanship, no matter how much instrumental prowess may have been displayed. Instead of evolving as an artist, he regressed into demonstrating his proficiency with well-established pop idioms - a conservatism that was sharply mirrored by many of the things he uttered in later interviews. The curious innovator died long before 2016.

Morgaine said:

christobole said: And you've done what? Lol never mind not worth it. Have a nice life.

It's smart, well-informed people like you that make this forum such a delight to engage in - Bart Van Hemelen knows what I'm talking about!

Christobole, I think you have made some fair points in your original post, please don't let rude people like Morgaine put you off from posting here. Some people take their fan adulation a bit too far unfortunately and can't stand to hear 'negative' things about their idol...

.

[Edited 1/6/20 12:40pm]

Vannormal said:

christobole said:

-

I agree on all levels.

-

What you basically say is that he had a very high levels of all sorts.

Thàt in itself, is very impossible to keep up with.

His biggest competition was himself not to forget, on many levels; musically, personally, spiritually, etc. Being too competitive can be disturbing and weakening.

The most uninspired years started somehow with the name change (however, it was very daring and original. but it lasted too long), while he just signed a 100 milion contract.

The industry attack etc, was OK but also too long, too pretentious and came too much too often to the fore. At the same time, he was a pioneer in al this for sure.

I remember at one point he was almost only known for Purple Rain and the dispute/fighting with WB, and there I lost him completly. Not to forget the unsmart words about Wendy & Lisa and their sexuality later on in his career, killed it for me completely. He drifted towards a very conservative religeous shore and couldn't swim back.

-

Somehow, for me it all started after Grafitti Bridge, with the New Power Generation, a name that I still don't like up to this day; The NPG. But that's a personal opinion of course, I know.

He lost a lot of 'feel' and 'soul' and 'involvement' like he had with his previous two bands, The Revolution and the Lovesexy/SOTT band.

He did not evolve much. He indeed became conservative in many ways.

His good and close friendships died along the way too.

Those from the 80's with the three girls, etc, all of a sudden were smahed, nearly like ignored. The friends he had in the nineties and on were mostly people on his payroll, enough said.

-

His freedom actually created new chains; being on the top, and being alone.

And we all know that it can be very lonely at the top (of it all).

-

''Musicology'' wasn't really the big come back commercially. It was good for a while, but then again, it turned back around.

'Hit 'n Run, Phase I', or 'Phase II', how often do most people/fans (here) listen to it ?

Planet Earth ? ''20TEN'' ?

''3121'' ?

''The SLaughterhouse''?

''Lotusflow3r" ?

"MPLSound" ?

"The Chocolate Invasion"?

-

Hello Vannormal, I like your perspective.

funkaholic1972 said:

christobole said:

Yes, I'm a fan of his 80s work - in fact, I can't think of a single pop-musician with the same level of creativity, artistry and virtuosity. However, I can't ignore the context of the following 25 years of largely uninspired and uninspiring craftsmanship, no matter how much instrumental prowess may have been displayed. Instead of evolving as an artist, he regressed into demonstrating his proficiency with well-established pop idioms - a conservatism that was sharply mirrored by many of the things he uttered in later interviews. The curious innovator died long before 2016.

It's smart, well-informed people like you that make this forum such a delight to engage in - Bart Van Hemelen knows what I'm talking about!

Christobole, I think you have made some fair points in your original post, please don't let rude people like Morgaine put you off from posting here. Some people take their fan adulation a bit too far unfortunately and can't stand to hear 'negative' things about their idol...

Funkaholic, I promise I won't leave. I meant what I said - some members' stupidity is rather amusing.

funkaholic1972 said:

christobole said:

IstenSzek said:

1. prince burned a lot of bridges, pissed off a lot of people and didn't care.

2. prince could have had hits regardless, if he'd been willing to play the game a certain way.

3. prince did not play anyone's game unless he felt like it.

4. prince then tried exactly what everyone was suggesting (rave), but on his terms.

5. prince realised a fusion between 'what i want and what they want' didn't work, got frustrated and said 'fuck it'

6. prince went on to make 17 years worth of amazing music, gaining more and more respect.

7. the world will catch up to prince sometime in the future, it will just take some more time.

8. singles and recordsales are dead for almost everyone over 40, give or take a few people, who play the game, so, see # '3.'

THIS..

LOVED the Symbol era. Possibly my favorite era of Prince. Loved the new music. Thought the symbol thing was a good idea, I dug it, I thought it was cool. The hair cropped short and the silly painting on his face: um, no, notsomuch.... I mean, this was a really, really BAD, "ICKY" look for Prince. Same with 3121. Not a good aesthetic for Prince, in my opinion of course.

[Edited 1/10/20 16:16pm]

christobole said:

Morgaine said:

christobole said: Expanding boundaries in music. Not film, etc. Are you actually a Prince fam? You don't seem to like or respect his creativity very much... As for your last sentence, I completely disagree. Name another musician who released as many different genres, still made millions touring, & did it for over a decade on their own terms other than Prince?

Yes, I'm a fan of his 80s work - in fact, I can't think of a single pop-musician with the same level of creativity, artistry and virtuosity. However, I can't ignore the context of the following 25 years of largely uninspired and uninspiring craftsmanship, no matter how much instrumental prowess may have been displayed. Instead of evolving as an artist, he regressed into demonstrating his proficiency with well-established pop idioms - a conservatism that was sharply mirrored by many of the things he uttered in later interviews. The curious innovator died long before 2016.

This is one view, and I can kind of understand what you mean, but I can't say that I actually agree.

You might not like "The Rainbow Children", but that album was both innovative and BRAVE. Prince knew full well that the album would NOT have wide commercial appeal. But to make any music other than what he really wanted to do would be unfulfilling and that would have showed up in the songs in question anyway.

And I think "New Power Soul" is waaaaaaaaaaay better than "Purple Rain" (yeah, yeah I know...)

ForceofNature said:

mydrawers said:

christobole said:

Yes, I'm a fan of his 80s work - in fact, I can't think of a single pop-musician with the same level of creativity, artistry and virtuosity. However, I can't ignore the context of the following 25 years of largely uninspired and uninspiring craftsmanship, no matter how much instrumental prowess may have been displayed. Instead of evolving as an artist, he regressed into demonstrating his proficiency with well-established pop idioms - a conservatism that was sharply mirrored by many of the things he uttered in later interviews. The curious innovator died long before 2016.

This is one view, and I can kind of understand what you mean, but I can't say that I actually agree.

You might not like "The Rainbow Children", but that album was both innovative and BRAVE. Prince knew full well that the album would NOT have wide commercial appeal. But to make any music other than what he really wanted to do would be unfulfilling and that would have showed up in the songs in question anyway.

And I think "New Power Soul" is waaaaaaaaaaay better than "Purple Rain" (yeah, yeah I know...)

Could you please explain to me what made The Rainbow Children “both innovative and BRAVE“?

I disagree. Yes he was making some WTF even for me moves and the name change caused him to receive butt of the jokes but that era was only two years from like 1994 until he left Warner Brothers and then we can called him Prince again around 1997ish or 98. He still had success mainly through doing concerts. He realized earlier on his days of selling hits and sales were behind him and it might frustrated him at times but it didn't slow him down until the end that is beyond his control.

But he was still selling out shows until his death and people still show up when he planned a show at a short notice and highly respected musician in the industry. I think the media was criticial with the name change and but at the end of the day people still show up at the concerts.

Prince made career risks from 1985 to his death not make another PR.

So how did he lost everything?

Doozer said:

I’m not sure what he lost besides top 40 / mainstream popularity. And he gained that all back with Musicology, without a real radio hit. And again a few years later with his Super Bowl performance. “Lost it all” is a pretty gross overstatement.

Right. I don't understand why are people on this site are so obsessed with hits. Last time I check that doesn't always determine an artist's success. Artists makes the majority of their money via touring and merchandising even Prince was telling Judith Hill (or Andy Allo) that.

I read an article from this band called Badflower and the bandleader Josh Katz said he doesn't care if fans don't buy their album as he was saying he gets his money through touring not selling albums or being a hit. And his song Heroin topped the charts last year.

Okay Prince wasn't the best business person but he still had sellout concerts and didn't died in debt even post his name change era. I believe even after name change he was getting a million per show and was granted and also performed private parties. And also not to mention Musiology was one of the highest selling tours in 2004 and that way after the name change.

[Edited 1/13/20 10:57am]

IstenSzek said:

1. prince burned a lot of bridges, pissed off a lot of people and didn't care.

2. prince could have had hits regardless, if he'd been willing to play the game a certain way.

3. prince did not play anyone's game unless he felt like it.

4. prince then tried exactly what everyone was suggesting (rave), but on his terms.

5. prince realised a fusion between 'what i want and what they want' didn't work, got frustrated and said 'fuck it'

6. prince went on to make 17 years worth of amazing music, gaining more and more respect.

7. the world will catch up to prince sometime in the future, it will just take some more time.

8. singles and recordsales are dead for almost everyone over 40, give or take a few people, who play the game, so, see # '3.'

OperatingThetan said:

If, as you concede, one of Prince's biggest hits (his only number one single in the UK) was under the symbol name it doesn't necessarily follow that adopting the new name caused a lack of success. If, for example, 'Dolphin' had been released as a second single and 'The Gold Experience' album had actually followed as planned in 94 he would have had further hits. 'Love Sign' would also have charted well given the airplay at the time. In Europe, Prince was even having respectable minor hits under the NPG and Tora Tora moniker with 'Get Wild' and 'The Good Life'. So the name changes were not really a commercial issue between 93-95. 'Betcha by Golly Wow' was also a moderate UK hit in 96. What I think did genuinely decline sales was the choice of material, singles and Prince's promotional strategy in the years and decades that followed. Promo videos frequently arrived months after the singles if at all, Prince frequently chose not to perform the released single during promotional performances or in concert and some of the material was simply not 'chart friendly' or really created or selected with commercial considerations in mind.

Don't know about this. The Gold Experience is a good album and a great Prince project, but most of it just wasn't the kind of music people we're listening to in the 90s. Dolphin certainly wouldn't have done well had it been released as a single.

Mikado said:

OperatingThetan said:

If, as you concede, one of Prince's biggest hits (his only number one single in the UK) was under the symbol name it doesn't necessarily follow that adopting the new name caused a lack of success. If, for example, 'Dolphin' had been released as a second single and 'The Gold Experience' album had actually followed as planned in 94 he would have had further hits. 'Love Sign' would also have charted well given the airplay at the time. In Europe, Prince was even having respectable minor hits under the NPG and Tora Tora moniker with 'Get Wild' and 'The Good Life'. So the name changes were not really a commercial issue between 93-95. 'Betcha by Golly Wow' was also a moderate UK hit in 96. What I think did genuinely decline sales was the choice of material, singles and Prince's promotional strategy in the years and decades that followed. Promo videos frequently arrived months after the singles if at all, Prince frequently chose not to perform the released single during promotional performances or in concert and some of the material was simply not 'chart friendly' or really created or selected with commercial considerations in mind.

Don't know about this. The Gold Experience is a good album and a great Prince project, but most of it just wasn't the kind of music people we're listening to in the 90s. Dolphin certainly wouldn't have done well had it been released as a single.

whaadaya mean??? i hear it killed when he played dolphin live on letterman!

TrevorAyer said:

Mikado said:

Don't know about this. The Gold Experience is a good album and a great Prince project, but most of it just wasn't the kind of music people we're listening to in the 90s. Dolphin certainly wouldn't have done well had it been released as a single.

whaadaya mean??? i hear it killed when he played dolphin live on letterman!

Prince made even his most mediocre songs come to life live. Brother could play Jughead live and make it sound better than When Doves Cry.

[Edited 1/14/20 17:29pm]

jaawwnn said: