recordmanben said:

I hate it when people say Prince killed his career.
It's just so stupid to even utter those words lol.
He's Prince, well established with enough money and recognition to own his own complex, on a huge record lable, respected in the music industry, held in the highest regards by fans and general music lovers. Made a mark in the music world as one of the most genuine and prolific artists of all time. Huge popstar.

Even if he dropped off the face of the earth instead of changing his name, nobody would've ever forgotten him.

He didnt kill his career just because the press and critics said he did or people didn't understand. He literally paved the way and tought musicians what you make is who you are, not your name.

Let's drop the beggars and hangers on way of thinking when it comes to who's popular and take him for face value.

Where is it said he killed his career? Again like i have said, I am all about the indie artist, I look at the charts now and go what the F are people listening too? My top albums of the year didnt even come close to a chart, so this has nothing to do with his "career" which PRINCE never considered music to be his career, it was his existence. My point is that people on here and I see it all the time, complaining WHY dont reissues sell, why is this and that dropping off the charts, why didnt this song go to radio etc...People dont get the fact that his last HIT was 1994, case closed, that has nothing to do with his material its just a fact, it doesnt take away from his output, if it were all about sales PR would be his best album which its not even close at being.

OperatingThetan said:

If, as you concede, one of Prince's biggest hits (his only number one single in the UK) was under the symbol name it doesn't necessarily follow that adopting the new name caused a lack of success. If, for example, 'Dolphin' had been released as a second single and 'The Gold Experience' album had actually followed as planned in 94 he would have had further hits. 'Love Sign' would also have charted well given the airplay at the time. In Europe, Prince was even having respectable minor hits under the NPG and Tora Tora moniker with 'Get Wild' and 'The Good Life'. So the name changes were not really a commercial issue between 93-95. 'Betcha by Golly Wow' was also a moderate UK hit in 96. What I think did genuinely decline sales was the choice of material, singles and Prince's promotional strategy in the years and decades that followed. Promo videos frequently arrived months after the singles if at all, Prince frequently chose not to perform the released single during promotional performances or in concert and some of the material was simply not 'chart friendly' or really created or selected with commercial considerations in mind.

Its more than singles choices. Also he played "the game" with TMBGITW, he shopped it, pressed it, promoted it, spent a lot of money to make sure it was the hit it was. What was not helping was saying I am not putting out more new Prince Music, or Prince is dead etc....The Exodus was limited to overseas because of his battles, WB international and WB usa are two different things and the reason one could release it and one could not. I am not taking anything away from him, this period of PRINCE was my favorite because he was underground and away from the light. BUT he was declining with sales in the USA and worldwide overall but he had been up and down with it since LoveSexy. But his choice to flood the market even more was confusing to everyone really, you had NPG you had Prince stuff and symbol stuff and then dueling add campaigns and at the same time he was trying to lanch 1-800-new funk and a store and do the Crystal Ball thing etc...

TheFman said:

LoveGalore said:

TheFman said:

except that he did nothing with it. It finished him.

Bullshit

waiting for proof instead of names

He was on a downward trajectory commercially as it was.

D&P was a sellout album purposely made to shift as many units as possible, and it succeeded, but it burnt his credibility right at a time when credibility was what was being sold. There was no coming back from that until he could shift into elder statesman mode in 2004, and even then he wasn't selling bucketloads of new music.

This is not an attack on him or his music btw, we recorded lots of fantastic music in the 90s and plenty on here will tell you about his great tours circa New Power Soul or Rainbow Children when no-one bar the faithful was listening. I'd be of the opinion that when he wasn't trying to sell albums by the bucketload (e.g. Rave) he was releasing his strongest music.

[Edited 1/3/20 6:26am]

TheFman said:

TrevorAyer said:

thedoorkeeper said:

skywalker said:

Look at Milli Vanilli. Now, Look at todays hit singles. By in large, hits today are totally manufactured and a lot of time out of step with what is actually “hip” in music. If Millie Vanilli happen today, nobody would care Because so many acts are doing exactly what Milli Vanilli did or worse. [Edited 1/2/20 17:01pm]

Milli Vanilli pretended to be the vocalists when actually someone else was doing the singing. They were just lip synching. It was a scam. Who today is doing that? [Edited 1/2/20 20:40pm]

Hundrers or maybe even thousands of so called „artists“ have done it and do it all the time.

nonesuch said:

thedoorkeeper said:

skywalker said: Milli Vanilli pretended to be the vocalists when actually someone else was doing the singing. They were just lip synching. It was a scam. Who today is doing that? [Edited 1/2/20 20:40pm]

Hundrers or maybe even thousands of so called „artists“ have done it and do it all the time.

This is true. If you do a deep dive, you'll be shocked. Or not.

The word „everything“ in this thread's headline is not being used wisely. Prince, of course, didn't lose „everything“ when he changed his name. He did it for the reason we're well aware of. Whether that reason served its purpose is another question.

What I find much more interesting is the possibility that Prince couldn't really handle freedom. During his creative peack, starting with, let's say 1999, he almost seemed to be obsessed with pushing boundaries, as if he was working against what was expected of him - and he succeeded time and time again. Remember: MTV did all they could at the beginning to prevent videos by black artist from being played. Prince went one step further and dared to produce a whole movie. When everyone was expecting him to tour Purple Rain in Europe, South America, Asutralia and Asia, he declined. When everyone was expecting him to come up with Purple Rain II, he releases Around The World. When an Excecutive at Warners that Kiss would not work on radio, Prince insisted and it became one of his signature-songs.

I actual fact, no artist who didn't build up her or his own production company had ever been pranted freedom. But Prince fought for his creative freedom and that fight might have been a strong urge. Once he was free of being a „slave“ (remember Alan Leeds's thoughts on that?), there certainly wasn't anything to fight anymore. Arguably, he didn't produce much good music after he was free of what he considered to be companys that did restrict his creative flow. But that had been evident before. Once he had the Paisley Park label at his hands he produced a lot of mediocre records, didn't he?

Prince wasn't on for freedom. Why would he have joined a rather strict religious cult like JW when he really was all about freedom?

luv4u said:

luv4u said:

The name change allowed him to do what he wanted and be free to create. Genius move.

THIS! no further comments needed.

OperatingThetan said:

What I would add in addition to my previous post is my general puzzlement concerning why so many here seem to be so passionate and interested in chart positions and sales figures? They are largely irrelevant to today's music scene and most legacy artists and have never been a reliable indicator of quality. Is The Rainbow Children any less of an accomplishment musically because it sold less? From a fan perspective I thoroughly enjoyed the entire NPGMC experience. But from a commercial point of view it isn't even a blip on the radar.

which is the point I was making with this thread. I see countless posts on the forum when he was alive, it was also about "why doesnt he get so and so to produce it would help" really? and then after his death now its all about "the estate and WB isnt pushing the reissues they fell off the charts already", my point is commercially he was done in 1994, that was his last radio hit case closed, Im tired of hearing "Future baby Mama" was a hit or "Betcha By Golly Wow" was a hit etc..NO THEY WEREN'T, and that is FINE. The name change didnt effect him releasing or what he was doing to an extent, BUT commercially if HE thought he going to chart he was in for a rude awakening, that ship had sailed for many reasons, the name change being one and the way everyone perceived him. He was the brunt of every dumb joke. But also my use of "everything" in this thread is to enhance that he was doing this knowing he was going to lose everything that was what was at stake. And make no mistake, people coming around to his side took a really REALLY long time, he did not have many by his side in the recording business when he walked from WB or had Slave on his face, Madonna, Anita Baker, and tons of others were NOT in his corner and almost no one had his back.

OperatingThetan said:

What I would add in addition to my previous post is my general puzzlement concerning why so many here seem to be so passionate and interested in chart positions and sales figures? They are largely irrelevant to today's music scene and most legacy artists and have never been a reliable indicator of quality. Is The Rainbow Children any less of an accomplishment musically because it sold less? From a fan perspective I thoroughly enjoyed the entire NPGMC experience. But from a commercial point of view it isn't even a blip on the radar.

Agree re the obsession with sales and chart-positions here, which is pathetic. But I strongly disagree with your statement that legacy arists have never been a reliable indicator for quality. Really? Is Kanye West? Give me a break.

IstenSzek said:

1. prince burned a lot of bridges, pissed off a lot of people and didn't care.

2. prince could have had hits regardless, if he'd been willing to play the game a certain way.

3. prince did not play anyone's game unless he felt like it.

4. prince then tried exactly what everyone was suggesting (rave), but on his terms.

5. prince realised a fusion between 'what i want and what they want' didn't work, got frustrated and said 'fuck it'

6. prince went on to make 17 years worth of amazing music, gaining more and more respect.

7. the world will catch up to prince sometime in the future, it will just take some more time.

8. singles and recordsales are dead for almost everyone over 40, give or take a few people, who play the game, so, see # '3.'

IMHO I agree with much of this. I think after so long without charting or getting airplay or awards Prince was like, "I make a great living and I am considered a living legend." Who really cares about charts anymore?

lastdecember said:

OperatingThetan said:

What I would add in addition to my previous post is my general puzzlement concerning why so many here seem to be so passionate and interested in chart positions and sales figures? They are largely irrelevant to today's music scene and most legacy artists and have never been a reliable indicator of quality. Is The Rainbow Children any less of an accomplishment musically because it sold less? From a fan perspective I thoroughly enjoyed the entire NPGMC experience. But from a commercial point of view it isn't even a blip on the radar.

which is the point I was making with this thread. I see countless posts on the forum when he was alive, it was also about "why doesnt he get so and so to produce it would help" really? and then after his death now its all about "the estate and WB isnt pushing the reissues they fell off the charts already", my point is commercially he was done in 1994, that was his last radio hit case closed, Im tired of hearing "Future baby Mama" was a hit or "Betcha By Golly Wow" was a hit etc..NO THEY WEREN'T, and that is FINE. The name change didnt effect him releasing or what he was doing to an extent, BUT commercially if HE thought he going to chart he was in for a rude awakening, that ship had sailed for many reasons, the name change being one and the way everyone perceived him. He was the brunt of every dumb joke. But also my use of "everything" in this thread is to enhance that he was doing this knowing he was going to lose everything that was what was at stake. And make no mistake, people coming around to his side took a really REALLY long time, he did not have many by his side in the recording business when he walked from WB or had Slave on his face, Madonna, Anita Baker, and tons of others were NOT in his corner and almost no one had his back.

I disagree with his commercial viability being dead. He obviously didn't care that he was commercial in the later years or didn't want to bother with what it took to be commercially successful or couldn't figure out how to do it himself if he tried to do it alone. For example, in 2004 Prince could have easily put out a "Diamonds and Pearls-esque" album to ride the high wave he was on and significantly charted after or amidst the huge Musicology tour and Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Induction. In 2007, he was on a 10 times higher wave after the Super Bowl and he could have put out a radio-friendly charting album. By 2014, he was at musical god status in the US. Any room he walked in or any stadium or award show he showed up in he received a standing ovation or gasps and adulation from the crowd - including former critics and record company execs (remember, they were in talks with him). That was yet another chance for him to put out a radio-friendly album if he wanted to. To sum it up, he wanted to put out what he wanted to put out in whatever style he wanted at the time. And he didn't want to concede to artist/radio station/record exec protocols. That was why he didn't commercially dominate. Not because there was a vendetta against him; he just didn't play the game.

pdiddy2011 said:

lastdecember said:

which is the point I was making with this thread. I see countless posts on the forum when he was alive, it was also about "why doesnt he get so and so to produce it would help" really? and then after his death now its all about "the estate and WB isnt pushing the reissues they fell off the charts already", my point is commercially he was done in 1994, that was his last radio hit case closed, Im tired of hearing "Future baby Mama" was a hit or "Betcha By Golly Wow" was a hit etc..NO THEY WEREN'T, and that is FINE. The name change didnt effect him releasing or what he was doing to an extent, BUT commercially if HE thought he going to chart he was in for a rude awakening, that ship had sailed for many reasons, the name change being one and the way everyone perceived him. He was the brunt of every dumb joke. But also my use of "everything" in this thread is to enhance that he was doing this knowing he was going to lose everything that was what was at stake. And make no mistake, people coming around to his side took a really REALLY long time, he did not have many by his side in the recording business when he walked from WB or had Slave on his face, Madonna, Anita Baker, and tons of others were NOT in his corner and almost no one had his back.

I disagree with his commercial viability being dead. He obviously didn't care that he was commercial in the later years or didn't want to bother with what it took to be commercially successful or couldn't figure out how to do it himself if he tried to do it alone. For example, in 2004 Prince could have easily put out a "Diamonds and Pearls-esque" album to ride the high wave he was on and significantly charted after or amidst the huge Musicology tour and Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Induction. In 2007, he was on a 10 times higher wave after the Super Bowl and he could have put out a radio-friendly charting album. By 2014, he was at musical god status in the US. Any room he walked in or any stadium or award show he showed up in he received a standing ovation or gasps and adulation from the crowd - including former critics and record company execs (remember, they were in talks with him). That was yet another chance for him to put out a radio-friendly album if he wanted to. To sum it up, he wanted to put out what he wanted to put out in whatever style he wanted at the time. And he didn't want to concede to artist/radio station/record exec protocols. That was why he didn't commercially dominate. Not because there was a vendetta against him; he just didn't play the game.

But again this is him once again being accepted, he was accepted like this while he was battling it was not till it all fell down for others did people look towards him and say "hey you were right about those things". Musicology was over a decade after the change he made. He also was being supported by a major again, be it on his terms of ownership, but still Sony was doing the work, the deal with Arista left a lot of people weary label wise about him, he basically abandoned that record when the first single bombed, I think this was when Prince was realizing he was not going to get airplay anymore, that not only were people still against him in certain circles, Mtv etc..but also the scene was all about YOUNG and he was old to them, that was just reality no matter who it was.

nonesuch said:

People seem to forget that when the name change-symbol-thing took plave, Prince also got lost little by little in conspiracy thoeries. He basically sacrificed his playfulness for all kinds of superstition. No wonder people didn't want to follow that stuff anymore.But I'm sure that quite a few people here have a different taker on it.

sro100 said:

Morgaine said:

sro100 said:

When he changed his name to he became even cooler.

Amen to that! He could've had hits if he'd wanted them - he wrote Gett Off in 72 hours (iirc) with the express purpose of having a hit. He changed the entire way musicians can make money. What he did was HUGE. I believe he was more interested in being creative and expanding boundaries even before he fell out with WB. Lots of interviews in the 90s where he speaks about why he changed his name, going independent, etc. I don't like everything song he did. But I do think he was a genius & I appreciate all of it.

No, his claim to have been expanding his boundaries (into film etc...) only signposted a slow & painful creative and artistic decline (which was obvious for most everyone who observed him over his last 25 years). Ever-increasing virtuosity and craft didn't do for him what it does for great artists: to set free from pretension and enabling further evolution and genuine exploration.

“What’s My Name” is one of my favorite (top 30) Prince/ songs ever.

“Love 2 the 9s” and “Damn U” are some of his most gorgeous ballads.

That said, “PARADE” was his last perfect “album;” there were great hits afterward, but he either got tired of albums in an age when everyone was making mixtapes and buring their own cds or he felt albums didn’t need to be perfect — just a wanton soup he could drop 2-3 brilliant songs into with some interesting yet satisfying broth. It is humanizing to hear the interesting songs.

“CONTROVERSY” “1999” “PURPLE RAIN” “ATWIAD” “PARADE” and “SOTT” made him seem like he wasn’t a human like the rest of us. They’re fun, otherworldly, but freakish-ly good.

[Edited 1/4/20 6:08am]

christobole said:

Morgaine said:

christobole said:

No, his claim to have been expanding his boundaries (into film etc...) only signposted a slow & painful creative and artistic decline (which was obvious for most everyone who observed him over his last 25 years). Ever-increasing virtuosity and craft didn't do for him what it does for great artists: to set free from pretension and enabling further evolution and genuine exploration.

Expanding boundaries in music. Not film, etc. Are you actually a Prince fam? You don't seem to like or respect his creativity very much... As for your last sentence, I completely disagree. Name another musician who released as many different genres, still made millions touring, & did it for over a decade on their own terms other than Prince?

Yes, I'm a fan of his 80s work - in fact, I can't think of a single pop-musician with the same level of creativity, artistry and virtuosity. However, I can't ignore the context of the following 25 years of largely uninspired and uninspiring craftsmanship, no matter how much instrumental prowess may have been displayed. Instead of evolving as an artist, he regressed into demonstrating his proficiency with well-established pop idioms - a conservatism that was sharply mirrored by many of the things he uttered in later interviews. The curious innovator died long before 2016.