Dalia11 said:

Benny, good point. That is why I said prone to. If there are other positive family members around the kids that can help them learn positive things, love, compassion, using non-violence, etc.

Andre's Mother Bernadette was a hugely positive force in Prince's life. She came a bit later, but still made a positive impact.

*

Prince wrote about most of his childhood and relationship issues in his song The Sacrifice Of Victor:

*

What is sacrifice?
(We sacrifice) {sample}
NPG n mass attack
Sonny, please
(We sacrifice)
Church, if U will, please turn 2 the Book of Victor
We'd like 2 start at the top if U don't mind
We sacrifice (Go'n say it, preacher)

I was born on a bloodstained table
Cord wrapped around my neck
Epileptic till the age of 7
I was sure heaven marked the day

We sacrifice
I know joy lives 'round the corner
Joy 4 sale down on the corner (We sacrifice)
1 day I'll visit her, I'm gonna
Out on my block, I'm just a loner (We sacrifice)
When she tell me everything (Tell me)
That's when the angels sing (We sacrifice)
That's when the victory is sho'nuff
Sho'nuff down with the sacrifice (We sacrifice)
Help me (Go'n say it, preacher)

Mama held up her baby 4 protection
From a man with a strap n his hand
Ask little Victor about pain and rejection
U think he don't when he do understand

We sacrifice
I know joy lives 'round the corner
Joy 4 sale down on the corner (We sacrifice)
1 day I'll visit her, I'm gonna
Out on my block, I'm just a loner (We sacrifice)
When she tell me everything (Tell me)
That's when the angels sing (We sacrifice)
That's when the victory is sho'nuff
Sho'nuff down with the sacrifice (We sacrifice)
Help me
S A C R I F I C E (We... sacrifice)
Go'n say it, preacher
We sacrifice {repeat}
If U'll turn the page (Go'n say it, preacher)

1967 n a bus marked, "Public Schools"
Rode me and a group of unsuspectin' political tools
Our parents wondered what it was like 2 have another color near
So they put their babies 2gether 2 eliminate the fear
We sacrifice, yes we did
Fighting 1 another (We sacrifice) (Go'n say it, preacher)
All because of color

The angel of hate, she taught me how 2 kick her
If she called me anything but Victor (U mean like nigga?)
If the only thing that tells is Father Time
Then sacrifice is a mother sublime, we love it
Listen mother, we sacrifice

Go'n... say it, preacher (We sacrifice)
Well... (What is sacrifice?)
Hold ur text, deacon

Never understood my old friends r laughin'
They got high when everything else got wrong (Pass the booze over here)
Dr. King was killed and the streets, they started burnin'
When the smoke was clear, their high was gone
Education got important, so important 2 Victor
A little more important than Ripple and weed
Bernadette's a lady and she told me (What she say?)
"Whatever U do son, a little discipline is what U need
Is what U need, U need 2 sacrifice" (We sacrifice)

I know joy lives 'round the corner
Joy 4 sale down on the corner (We sacrifice)
1 day I'll visit her, I'm gonna (Oh yeah)
Out on my block, I'm just a loner (We sacrifice)
When she tell me everything (Tell me)
That's when the angels sing (We sacrifice)
That's when the victory is sho'nuff
Sho'nuff down with the sacrifice (We sacrifice)
What is sacrifice? (We sacrifice)
Oh yeah (S A C R I F I C E)
We sacrifice (Joy around the corner) (We'll do it)
Hey Wendy, how come we.. (we sacrifice)
Excuse me, y'all (We sacrifice)
We don't mean 2 take up ur time (Joy around the corner)
But we got somethin' heavy on our minds (We sacrifice)
Yes we do (We sacrifice)

Sometimes U gotta leave the 1 U love
Somebody, anybody, everybody wave ur hand
4 joy around the corner there's another sacrifice
But U got 2 do the best U can, y'all (We sacrifice)
Say U gotta go thru it
U got 2 go thru it, y'all
Have mercy, yeah
It's that the phone? It's that the phone? Tell 'em I said...
Now Lord, have mercy on my feet (Joy around the corner)
Even if I get tired I... got 2 keep on walkin' down this road
I got 2 keep on walkin' down this road (Joy around the corner)
Till I reach my destination, yeah (We sacrifice) (Bow down)
My name will b Victor
Amen

Dalia11 said:

He did get married twice at least.

He did. He tried, but it seems the behavior in the marriages was the same as with other more serious relationships with women. Monogamy was tough for him.

good thread, his creativity was driven by a wish to create a different childhood .. his version of adressing the pain .. like imaginary worlds where he is in control ? he made a real world of that childhood escapism ...we can only hypothise based on models .. p himself wouldnt know the extent

benni said:

Dalia11 said:

Many people who have unresolved childhood issues with parents or experienced some form of abuse, grew up in broken homes, saw their parents fighting/abusing the other(physically, mentally, verbally)is prone to repeat what they learned/think is normal for rationships in their future relationships. Boys who did not have a good relationship with their mother are prone to have negative or abusive relationships as adults. Girls who did not have a good relationship with their father, grew up in a broken home was abused by one or both parents in some way, saw their parents fight, abuse the other in some way - are prone to have a dysfunctional/abusive relationship as an adult. They repeat the negative relationship they learned and think is normal.

I disagree on this point. Most people that abuse have been abused, yes, but most people that have been abused, do not grow up to abuse others. There is a distinction there and it's an important distinction to make. The majority of childhood abuse victims, grow up to be the opposite of what their parents/legal guardians were, and have a very difficult time asserting themselves. Yes, they do need control in their life, but usually that control is over themselves, more so than other people (controlling emotions, controlling their own actions/responses).

true in my case, when your boundaries are destroyed you don't really know how to say no, I've gotten better at it but nowhere near as good as most people. abuse effects everyone different, most abusive people were abused in some way as children, and usually, they either imitate what happened or go to the other extreme. My mom was left home as a child, her reaction was to overprotect and overmonitor us, that fucked me up, and having a raging mother, angry at the world just made me wary of women, it doesn't help that women are rarely friendly to men they don't know so as a result, i never had those relationships. On the whole, I'm ok with that, most of the couples I know are miserable as hell and I know plenty of divorced men who have fantasies of killing their exes, i don't think i missed out on much but I would have loved to have kids and I like to think I would have done a better job than my folks but you never know.

violetcrush said:

Dalia11 said:

True. It would have been nice if they did know about eachother's childhood issues, got therapy together, and help the other resolve their issues. Maybe they could have got married? Capricorn and Geminis can be a good match when they are on the same page and love the other. They were young too. Over 30 is when people are mature.

Prince, it seems, was not the marrying kind. Also, his life was his music, and his only focus was becoming a superstar musician at that time. Yes, and the younger age was a factor as well. Susan Rogers stated she had mentioned therapy once to Prince, and he looked at her like she was crazy. I don't think he believed in resolving issues through therapy. His therapy was the recording studio

she also said prince thought it was a sin to be depressed but from the sounds of it, he had problems with it at various points, particularly at the end. I mean, I think that might have been a huge factor in his not putting up more of a fight against the addiction, he was down.

I've heard the autistic theory before and back when most of us were young, all these labels that we have now didn't really exist or if they did, were just being coined and learned about (add, autism,fetal alcohol syndrome) I don't know if Prince had those issues but I have always believed that the great rock artists were schizoid, that they had to be, almost like shaman, that they had to be alone and isolated to give us what they did. It was true for Elvis, Springsteen, I think chuck berry, marvin gaye, not all of the great artists came across like that, Little Richard never came across as any sort of introvert did he? but the majority of them do and the majority of them have issues with depression, most of them are a little off.

violetcrush said:

alxndrstff said:

This is only to put what I post into context instead of some sort of boast, to be clear - my experience with Psychology is only at Honours Degree level at Glasgow Uni. I'm in no way claiming to be an expert.

The biggest issue you have trying to apply any theory to someone like Prince is the sheer difference in lifestyle he had compared to the average person once fame kicked in. The pressure to be a certain way, or as Prince would often do try to confound those expectations, was huge. People reacted to him differently also. All that pretty standard stuff that happens to celebrities was there.

But then you had something more, something that doesn't always apply. Prince wasn't just a talented musician. I could imagine his life being almost painful at times as he overflowed with creativity. Anyone who has that sort of urge will tell you it's very difficult to just switch it off, or to allow something they've thought of to just drift away. They HAVE to explore it, create it, bring it to life. Prince himself told us that he was at the extreme edge of that, and believed his time in the studio was unhealthy at one point. He also described how it was impossible for him to listen to other music without imagining how he would produce it, change it etc.

I can't even begin to understand a life where you can't just sit and enjoy music. It's one of the very few art forms the vast majority of people love in some way, and use to help boost their mood. Prince could only do that when performing or creating.

And music was what defined him. From a very young age, others and himself would have spoken about him not in terms of who he was, but what he was good at.

Like many, he had childhood traumas to deal with. Being the height and build he was, he had that to deal with too. At his absolute creative peaks, it was clear he was trying to prove something to more than just himself.

So yes, there was stories of controlling behaviour, and plenty of things people would categorise as character flaws. And much of it did deserve criticism. But it can't be easily explained by standard psychological theories, because he didn't fall into the categories that tends to cover.

From a perspective of psychology, which is simply a science trying to explain and predict human behaviour (the latter of those does contain a lot of concerns in my eyes), it's nigh on impossible to analyse Prince.

It has also been speculated - by some of those who had close relationships with Prince - that he may have been on the Autistic Spectrum. He was more than just shy - he was blatantly socially awkward, and he despised being in social situations with others whom he did not know, or where he could not control the situation. Was this a result of his tumultuous childhood, or would he have been this way having experienced a loving and nurturing childhood? Hard to know for sure.

*

He was most comfortable and interactive when he was performing on a stage with his close associates. His personality did a 180 degree turn. The crowd of strangers/fans were at a distance and standing below him. He was happiest, because he could do the thing he loved the most - play his music - and also feel the adoration of the crowd, which was a huge high, and I imagine it was what helped him to forget those feelings of being unloved, teased, and alone as a child.

*

It's quite interesting though - the relationship Prince had with his Father. By many associates' accounts he revered his Father, and they were very close by the time Purple Rain was released. This was confirmed during the 1985 RS interview where his Father was a prominent feature. During his first P&M Gala show Prince stated his Father was his best friend, and he gave him his rhythm. It seems that, by the end of his life, Prince had reconciled any issues he may have had about his childhood or relationship with his Father.

Prince wasn't autistic. He was a shy, anxious, man obsessed with music. Not an idiot savant but somebody who worked like a fiend on his craft.

Outside of his otherworldly ability to keep time, everybody who worked with him said he got to where he was through sheer will.

PeteSilas said:

violetcrush said:

Prince, it seems, was not the marrying kind. Also, his life was his music, and his only focus was becoming a superstar musician at that time. Yes, and the younger age was a factor as well. Susan Rogers stated she had mentioned therapy once to Prince, and he looked at her like she was crazy. I don't think he believed in resolving issues through therapy. His therapy was the recording studio

she also said prince thought it was a sin to be depressed but from the sounds of it, he had problems with it at various points, particularly at the end. I mean, I think that might have been a huge factor in his not putting up more of a fight against the addiction, he was down.

If Prince really cultivated the opinion that Depression is a sin, than he thought alike to 80 % of all people in the so called western civilized world. Being beaten by Clinical Depression is a severe ailment, an illness that is not easily cureable. It can be so devastating that it'll ultimately kill those affected by it. One of the reasons for the many suicides resulting from it is that a large number of people feel it inappropriate to talk about suffering from it early on. It's still stigamtized and one of the reasons for that is the perception that Depression might be „a sin“. That's completely unacceptable.

Strive said:

violetcrush said:

Dalia11 said:

laytonian said:

Dalia11 said:

In the song "Papa", he talks about his father beating him. At the end of the song he states: "Don't abuse children or else they will turn out like me!". He was in his 30's when this song came out from the "Come" album. His father used to be critical of Prince's music. Saying to his child son your music is not good. That is not good when a parent is envious of their child's talent because they were not successful in their career!

In the song Papa the dad blew his brains out with a shotgun. We know that isn't true, so how much of the rest is true? Or do we just pick and choose lines to support a particular narrative?

violetcrush said:

Strive said:

Prince wasn't autistic. He was a shy, anxious, man obsessed with music. Not an idiot savant but somebody who worked like a fiend on his craft.

Outside of his otherworldly ability to keep time, everybody who worked with him said he got to where he was through sheer will.

There are many aspects/levels of Autism. Many on the spectrum are extremely intelligent and often very skilled in a specific area - Math, music, etc. * Many associate Autism with lower intelligence, but that is just not the case. Prince was more than just “shy”. Typical social behavior was extremely difficult for him - even as a young child.

Prince also had the ability to create the Prince character we all know. He had a sense of humor. He could make/hold relationships and had an intense yearning for the company of others.

Being intentionally aloof or uncaring of certain aspects of life isn't autism. From most accounts, he was a regular guy who never really got over his rough upbringing and valued work over everything else.

Dalia11 said:

Dalia11 said:

Psychologist and psychiatrists use the DSM 4 or 5. Diognostic statistical manual to diagnose people. True, going to college does not make a person an expert in their field. Learning continuously makes people experts. And having a broad knowledge increases a person's expertise in a subject/subjects. That is why sometimes people need to get a second or third opinion when seeing any medical professional. They can make mistakes too.

It is the DSM-V now. I have the DSM-IV TR and really need to update it to the V because there are diagnoses that have changed, been removed, been added. But the DSM books are expensive. I had to take a DSM class in grad school for social work.

The one thing about the DSM is that you have to review the signs of each diagnosis and determine whether they meet the criteria for that diagnosis, or determine whether it might fit better under another diagnosis, or whether there might be other factors at play (medical and social) that might better account for the current symptoms.

Dalia11 said: