onlyforaminute said:

Dalia11 said:

If that is true, then some doctors, pharmacists are responsible.

He died of an opioid overdose 6 days after almost dying from an overdose. Its way passed time to face that something serious had been going on with that man and it had been going on for a while. We simply don't know for how long, yet we seem to know all about the abuse he endured as a child and he had some form of autism because those who knew him best told us so.

Amen.

Dalia11 said:

onlyforaminute said:

onlyforaminute said:

The biggest problem with these type of things is the constant ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room or rather making it a non-factor. Prince had an opioid dependency. So far I've only heard one person who actually knew him admit he took pills, and currently that person has had their career taken away from them, rightly or wrongly so, we'll never know. It's been rumored Prince's problem started anywhere either during the PR tour all the way to about 2010, depending on whose camp one chooses to be a part of. Its extremely hard to analyze anyone's behavior without including the effect/affects of using and hiding opioid use. I love the man to my core and enough time has passed for someone to come clean about what they knew, yet everyone wants to absolve themselves of any knowledge and I'll say for good reason. But facts can't even be known until that truth gets told. These are my feelings.

who lost their career and why? for saying he took pills? lots of people have said that.

Dalia11 said:

I attended college 21 years ago, I have not read the DSM 4, 5 in some time. I will check on line. It is true it has to be updated. [Edited 7/7/19 19:33pm]

I still have to use it in my line of work. Luckily, they have the V at work, but I should really have a copy at home.

I looked online. Still DSM 5.

great thread, thank you.

I've read the main biographies etc + like you all, have heard the various accounts from friends & family about his personal qualities. The most interesting & recurring theme is that he was more than likely 'on the spectrum' - the traits are there ie the inability to connect on a human level , to be in touch with the super creative part of his brain..an addiction to work, a lack of emotion etc - there will be people on here far better qualified to write about this but the traits from what I understand are incredibly similar.

The other key potential factor of course has to be the influence of 'substances' / drugs - we all know that drugs in whatever form can lead to huge mood swings.

He sounded like a truly horrible man back in the day BUT he was a man on a mission & so I understand the need for ruthless control...not nice to do BUT needed IMHO...he carried this trait on for many years. However he seemed to mellow hugely..perhaps he sensed the end was near?, perhaps he was in therapy to help him evolve? All we do know is , is that he became a much kinder, wiser human.

He was incredibly complex & perhaps it's safe to say that he struggled with his own traits more than we did...imagine being Prince.....

masaba said:

So now Prince has autism.

perfectly viable & a strong case can be made for it...if you are referring to my reply you will have noted that I wrote that he may have been on the spectrum & not was. I know several people who have family members who are at varying stages of autism - if you care to do your homework you'll understand the important use of the term 'spectrum'

Dalia11 said:

I looked online. Still DSM 5.

Yes, DSM V is still the last one. It came out in, 2011? 2012? Somewhere in there. Prior to the release of V, the DSM IV-TR had been last updated really, like 2 decades earlier, so there were some changes that needed to be made.

onlyforaminute said:

The biggest problem with these type of things is the constant ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room or rather making it a non-factor. Prince had an opioid dependency. So far I've only heard one person who actually knew him admit he took pills, and currently that person has had their career taken away from them, rightly or wrongly so, we'll never know. It's been rumored Prince's problem started anywhere either during the PR tour all the way to about 2010, depending on whose camp one chooses to be a part of. Its extremely hard to analyze anyone's behavior without including the effect/affects of using and hiding opioid use. I love the man to my core and enough time has passed for someone to come clean about what they knew, yet everyone wants to absolve themselves of any knowledge and I'll say for good reason. But facts can't even be known until that truth gets told. These are my feelings.

Can you clue me in please and name that „one person“?

masaba said:

RJOrion said:

masaba said:

So now Prince has autism.

its getting ridiculous isnt it?...everybody is a doctor or psychologist...dissecting his brain from the remnants of his ashes and from second and third hand accounts from his former employees and co-workers, and song lyrics..it seems morbid, voyeuristic and disrespectful IMO

That's why I'm not going to try to diagnose him. Even working with the DSM, you really have to have personal interactions with the person, to be able to look at the symptoms, length of period having the symptoms, to be able to ask about medical issues that may be causing the symptoms, etc.

You also have to determine whether the symptoms caused clinically significant distress in social settings, or occupational settings, or other areas of importance (such as relationships, family, etc). And in order to be diagnosed, it can't be due to drug usage, medical condition, etc. Without any of that inside information, without that personal interaction, there is no way to determine what (if any) diagnosis would have fit him.

When I saw the title of the thread, I purposely stayed away but I eventually had to take a peek. This is what I do for a living, and as a professional you aren't supposed to diagnose people who you haven't seen professionally (sorry Dr. Phil). Even if I could, I wouldn't because Prince was such an extremely complex and private person that it would be hard to be sure about his diagnosis. Also, Prince was so beyond any one diagnostic label.

I will say a couple of things about some of the comments here. It seems that three types of Prince issues seem to be mentioned in these types of discussions: Narcissism, trauma issues, and high functioning Autism. These are three very different things, with different roots and presentations. Nevertheless, I can see why people wonder about them in regards to Prince because they actually have some overlap: difficulty connecting to people, aloofness, difficulty in perspective taking, extreme drive to be the best in certain areas, and a tendency to demean others. Sounds like anyone we know? However, if you lived with someone with PTSD or insecure attachment from trauma, a person with autism, or a person with a narcissistic personality disorder you would be dealing with completely different experiences. Who knows how Prince really was inside his psyche?

On another note, I do want to differentiate between someone who uses narcissistic defenses and someone who has narcissistic personbality disorder. The latter type of person can NEVER truly connects with others, though they may seem to do so when they are secretly exploiting others or when they are soaking up the praise by others of themselves. In contrast, most people use narcissistic defenses (e.g., building yourself up while tearing others down) to varying degrees when they feel wounded. Think of how people engage in put downs of each other while in an argument, for example. I do think it was clear that Prince certainly used these types of defenses at times and some of his songs certainly have elements of self-aggrandizement, but he also could have a sense of humor about this. I am not trying to make a case for NPD here. Indeed, when I hear the song like Wally with all of its heartache and vulnerability, I can't imagine someone with full blown NPD or Autism singing it. Of course, I could be wrong .

A final note is that most people who are raised in abusive households statistically are likely to have insecure attachment interpersonal styles throughout their lives. That is they stay remote and guarded as their primary style, and feel extremely vulnerable in the rare instances when they try to get close to others. A different insecure pattern is that they have no boundaries and get too close too fast and then get clingy and threatened by the intimacy. The childhood that Prince grew up in as described in various book seems abusive and non-responsive enough to his needs that it would have been a minor miracle if he had a secure attachment style. It is also important to note that having an insecure attachment style is not in itself a psychiatric disorder, though extreme forms of the clingy insecure style can be found in Borderline Personality Disorder.

All of this is to say that we need to be careful in using psychiatric diagnostic labels for Prince, although he is so fascinating I can understand the desire to do so. I do think it is safe to say that he used narcissistic defenses and likely has an insecure attachment style that made it difficult for him to sustain connections.

gandorb said:

Prince seems to meet a lot of the symptoms of Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (CPTSD)

https://www.healthline.co...d#symptoms

Lack of emotional regulation

This refers to having uncontrollable feelings, such as explosive anger or ongoing sadness.

Changes in consciousness

This can include forgetting the traumatic event or feeling detached from your emotions or body, which is also called dissociation.

Negative self-perception

You may feel guilt or shame, to the point that you feel completely different from other people.

Difficulty with relationships

You might find yourself avoiding relationships with other people out of mistrust or a feeling of not knowing how to interact with others. On the other hand, some might seek relationships with people who harm them because it feels familiar.

Distorted perception of abuser

This includes becoming preoccupied with the relationship between you and your abuser. It can also include preoccupation with revenge or giving your abuser complete power over your life.

Loss of systems of meanings

Systems of meaning refer to your religion or beliefs about the world. For example, you might lose faith in some long-held beliefs you had or develop a strong sense of despair or hopelessness about the world.

Another favorite Gemini Musician/singer of mine is Jewel.

She wrote the song Daddy for a few kids that she knew when she was a kid. The kids father did not let them watch the "Jeffersons" show.

Some of the lyrics from the song "Daddy" - Jewel:

"Sometimes I want to rip out your throat, daddy - what's that say about

me?........

.......Gonna rip your heart out the way you did mine, daddy.....

Go ahead and psycho - analyse that!....

......Grew up to be and do all those sick things you said I'd do.....

.......Well last night I saw you sneak out your window with your white hood daddy, what's that say about you?

She may also have some negative feelings about her father?

Dalia11 said:

And I study astrology. He was a Gemini. That sign is not an emotional sign(especially the men). They are rational, honest, focused on their needs, fickle, changeable, clever, creative, artistic, fast moving, contradictary, moody, have two sides to their personality, secretive, do not like to reveal their true feelings, like games, pranks, are witty, blunt, like to be in charge, impatient, restless. That he why he got along with certain signs only and with people who had compatible planetary aspects with his Rising(Scorpio), Moon(Pisces), Mars(Aries), Venus(Taurus), Mercury(Gemini).

If astrology were real then Prince was a Taurus: https://www.livescience.com/4667-astrological-sign.html The primitive minds that came up with the idea of astrology couldn't even predict an eclipse and were often beheaded by their superstitious masters, so what the hell would they know about creating a religion? Objective truth aside, how is one focused yet fickle? How is one focused yet impatient. Focus is the opposite of impatience. One also cannot be honest and secretive. Prince was as prolific with lying as he was with music. I think you life would be much richer if you focused your studies elsewhere. Please don't be like the person in England who refused to rent to a person because they were a capricorn. Discrimination always sucks, especially due to religion.

I was reading about that Taurus instead of Gemini, it is all interesting! I have to review the Egyptian astrological signs and the African signs and the signs from other countries/cultures.

[Edited 7/9/19 12:45pm]

I think you're missing out on something quite crucial... One can only analyse his lyrics in context to how me might feel psychologically about something. A person's personality is ever-envolving, it never stops developing itself, even when someone's old. No matter what psychological perspective you hold on to, it can only be used as a tool to understand someone if you actually were to speak to this person. To do that by his lyrics would only make possible to understand his creative/emotional pattern on the time he wrote/recorded his songs. Personality isn't something fixed and concrete, it's as much someone's own inner reality and what other people project onto an individual. (I have a major in psychology, btw )

Matthaus said:

I don't think it's right to be psychoanalyzing a man who is not participating in the analysis. I believe he wrote his music for many reasons, not just as an extension of his personality. He probably had issues from childhood but who doesn't? I'm content to appreciate his incredible creativity and energy and let the rest go. RIP PRN

gandorb said:

When I saw the title of the thread, I purposely stayed away but I eventually had to take a peek. This is what I do for a living, and as a professional you aren't supposed to diagnose people who you haven't seen professionally (sorry Dr. Phil). Even if I could, I wouldn't because Prince was such an extremely complex and private person that it would be hard to be sure about his diagnosis. Also, Prince was so beyond any one diagnostic label.

I will say a couple of things about some of the comments here. It seems that three types of Prince issues seem to be mentioned in these types of discussions: Narcissism, trauma issues, and high functioning Autism. These are three very different things, with different roots and presentations. Nevertheless, I can see why people wonder about them in regards to Prince because they actually have some overlap: difficulty connecting to people, aloofness, difficulty in perspective taking, extreme drive to be the best in certain areas, and a tendency to demean others. Sounds like anyone we know? However, if you lived with someone with PTSD or insecure attachment from trauma, a person with autism, or a person with a narcissistic personality disorder you would be dealing with completely different experiences. Who knows how Prince really was inside his psyche?

On another note, I do want to differentiate between someone who uses narcissistic defenses and someone who has narcissistic personbality disorder. The latter type of person can NEVER truly connects with others, though they may seem to do so when they are secretly exploiting others or when they are soaking up the praise by others of themselves. In contrast, most people use narcissistic defenses (e.g., building yourself up while tearing others down) to varying degrees when they feel wounded. Think of how people engage in put downs of each other while in an argument, for example. I do think it was clear that Prince certainly used these types of defenses at times and some of his songs certainly have elements of self-aggrandizement, but he also could have a sense of humor about this. I am not trying to make a case for NPD here. Indeed, when I hear the song like Wally with all of its heartache and vulnerability, I can't imagine someone with full blown NPD or Autism singing it. Of course, I could be wrong .

A final note is that most people who are raised in abusive households statistically are likely to have insecure attachment interpersonal styles throughout their lives. That is they stay remote and guarded as their primary style, and feel extremely vulnerable in the rare instances when they try to get close to others. A different insecure pattern is that they have no boundaries and get too close too fast and then get clingy and threatened by the intimacy. The childhood that Prince grew up in as described in various book seems abusive and non-responsive enough to his needs that it would have been a minor miracle if he had a secure attachment style. It is also important to note that having an insecure attachment style is not in itself a psychiatric disorder, though extreme forms of the clingy insecure style can be found in Borderline Personality Disorder.

All of this is to say that we need to be careful in using psychiatric diagnostic labels for Prince, although he is so fascinating I can understand the desire to do so. I do think it is safe to say that he used narcissistic defenses and likely has an insecure attachment style that made it difficult for him to sustain connections.

How about the idea of Antisocial Personality Disorder? Many of the behaviors used to describe this seem to fit Prince's m/o:

*

Antisocial personality disorder describes an ingrained pattern of behavior in which individuals consistently disregard and violate the rights of others around them.

The disorder is best understood within the context of the broader category of personality disorders. A personality disorder is an enduring pattern of personal experience and behavior that deviates noticeably from the expectations of the individual's culture, is pervasive and inflexible, has an onset in adolescence or early adulthood, is stable over time, and leads to personal distress or impairment.

The symptoms of antisocial personality disorder can vary in severity. The more egregious, harmful, or dangerous behavior patterns are referred to as sociopathic or psychopathic. There has been much debate as to the distinction between the two descriptions. Sociopathy is chiefly characterized as something severely wrong with one's conscience; psychopathy is characterized as a complete lack of conscience regarding others. Some professionals describe people with this constellation of symptoms as "stone cold" to the rights of others. Consequences of this disorder can include imprisonment, drug abuse, and alcoholism.

People with this illness may seem charming on the surface, but they are likely to be irritable and aggressive as well as irresponsible. They may have numerous somatic complaints and perhaps attempt suicide. Due to their manipulative tendencies, it is difficult to tell whether they are lying or telling the truth.

The diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder is not given to individuals under the age of 18 but is given only if there is a history of some symptoms of conduct disorder before age 15. Antisocial personality disorder is much more common in males than in females. The highest prevalence of antisocial personality disorder is found among males who abuse alcohol or drugs or who are in prisons or other forensic settings.

*

Thinking/cognition also influences personality.

Many research has shown that: trained musicians think differently. They use a creative technique called divergent thinking. They also use the left and right sides of their frontal cortex more heavily than the average person.

Previous studies of creativity have focused on divergent thinking which is the ability to come up with new solutions to open-ended, multi-faceted problems. Highly creative individuals often display more divergent thinking than their less creative counter parts. In addition, they have higher IQ scores than the non-musicians.

Huh, that is something to think about!

violetcrush said:

gandorb said:

When I saw the title of the thread, I purposely stayed away but I eventually had to take a peek. This is what I do for a living, and as a professional you aren't supposed to diagnose people who you haven't seen professionally (sorry Dr. Phil). Even if I could, I wouldn't because Prince was such an extremely complex and private person that it would be hard to be sure about his diagnosis. Also, Prince was so beyond any one diagnostic label.

I will say a couple of things about some of the comments here. It seems that three types of Prince issues seem to be mentioned in these types of discussions: Narcissism, trauma issues, and high functioning Autism. These are three very different things, with different roots and presentations. Nevertheless, I can see why people wonder about them in regards to Prince because they actually have some overlap: difficulty connecting to people, aloofness, difficulty in perspective taking, extreme drive to be the best in certain areas, and a tendency to demean others. Sounds like anyone we know? However, if you lived with someone with PTSD or insecure attachment from trauma, a person with autism, or a person with a narcissistic personality disorder you would be dealing with completely different experiences. Who knows how Prince really was inside his psyche?

On another note, I do want to differentiate between someone who uses narcissistic defenses and someone who has narcissistic personbality disorder. The latter type of person can NEVER truly connects with others, though they may seem to do so when they are secretly exploiting others or when they are soaking up the praise by others of themselves. In contrast, most people use narcissistic defenses (e.g., building yourself up while tearing others down) to varying degrees when they feel wounded. Think of how people engage in put downs of each other while in an argument, for example. I do think it was clear that Prince certainly used these types of defenses at times and some of his songs certainly have elements of self-aggrandizement, but he also could have a sense of humor about this. I am not trying to make a case for NPD here. Indeed, when I hear the song like Wally with all of its heartache and vulnerability, I can't imagine someone with full blown NPD or Autism singing it. Of course, I could be wrong .

A final note is that most people who are raised in abusive households statistically are likely to have insecure attachment interpersonal styles throughout their lives. That is they stay remote and guarded as their primary style, and feel extremely vulnerable in the rare instances when they try to get close to others. A different insecure pattern is that they have no boundaries and get too close too fast and then get clingy and threatened by the intimacy. The childhood that Prince grew up in as described in various book seems abusive and non-responsive enough to his needs that it would have been a minor miracle if he had a secure attachment style. It is also important to note that having an insecure attachment style is not in itself a psychiatric disorder, though extreme forms of the clingy insecure style can be found in Borderline Personality Disorder.

All of this is to say that we need to be careful in using psychiatric diagnostic labels for Prince, although he is so fascinating I can understand the desire to do so. I do think it is safe to say that he used narcissistic defenses and likely has an insecure attachment style that made it difficult for him to sustain connections.

How about the idea of Antisocial Personality Disorder? Many of the behaviors used to describe this seem to fit Prince's m/o:

*

Antisocial personality disorder describes an ingrained pattern of behavior in which individuals consistently disregard and violate the rights of others around them.

The disorder is best understood within the context of the broader category of personality disorders. A personality disorder is an enduring pattern of personal experience and behavior that deviates noticeably from the expectations of the individual's culture, is pervasive and inflexible, has an onset in adolescence or early adulthood, is stable over time, and leads to personal distress or impairment.

The symptoms of antisocial personality disorder can vary in severity. The more egregious, harmful, or dangerous behavior patterns are referred to as sociopathic or psychopathic. There has been much debate as to the distinction between the two descriptions. Sociopathy is chiefly characterized as something severely wrong with one's conscience; psychopathy is characterized as a complete lack of conscience regarding others. Some professionals describe people with this constellation of symptoms as "stone cold" to the rights of others. Consequences of this disorder can include imprisonment, drug abuse, and alcoholism.

People with this illness may seem charming on the surface, but they are likely to be irritable and aggressive as well as irresponsible. They may have numerous somatic complaints and perhaps attempt suicide. Due to their manipulative tendencies, it is difficult to tell whether they are lying or telling the truth.

The diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder is not given to individuals under the age of 18 but is given only if there is a history of some symptoms of conduct disorder before age 15. Antisocial personality disorder is much more common in males than in females. The highest prevalence of antisocial personality disorder is found among males who abuse alcohol or drugs or who are in prisons or other forensic settings.

*

Symptoms

According to the DSM-5, features of antisocial personality disorder include:

• Violation of the physical or emotional rights of others
• Lack of stability in job and home life
• Irritability and aggression
• Lack of remorse
• Consistent irresponsibility
• Recklessness, impulsivity
• Deceitfulness
• A childhood diagnosis (or symptoms consistent with) conduct disorder

Antisocial personality is confirmed by a psychological evaluation. Other disorders should be ruled out first, as this is a serious diagnosis.

The alcohol and drug abuse common among people with antisocial personality disorder can exacerbate symptoms of the disorder. When substance abuse and antisocial personality disorder coexist, treatment is more complicated for both.

Causes

While the exact causes of the disorder are unknown, both environmental and genetic factors have been implicated. Genetic factors are suspected since the incidence of antisocial behavior is higher in people with a biological parent who displays antisocial characteristics. Environmental factors may also play a role, however, as a person whose role model had antisocial tendencies is more likely to develop them.

About 3 percent of men and about 1 percent of women have antisocial personality disorder.

*

I believe Prince's Father was said to be extremely reclusive and anti-social even though he was a performer in his earlier days. Obviously, Prince would not have been on the drastic or criminal end of this disorder, however, many have described him as having behavior that could be manipulative, deceitful, controlling, and narcissistic. Also, if you listen to his songs about lost love (ie: Wally, NC2U, etc) he expresses himself as the victim in those relationships - as in, why did you leave me when you know I love you so much and treated you so well - but in reality, he cheated constantly, tried to control the women, and manipulated them. I think at least part of his consience had to have been missing in order for him to consistently lie to, and manipulate the women. His songs tell one story, but his behavior and track record with relationships seem to show something else altogether.

Uh, the man had a 40+ year career doing the same thing, how in the world can you attribute the the second "symptom" to Prince? And that first one is just plan stupid, who the heck hasn't hurt someone, heck several people throughout their lifetime? This comes off as drama seeking non-sense.

To requote...

All these “symptoms” will be familiar to any
creative person who has ever been intensely and happily focused on a new
idea—their “pathology” may be more indicative of the observer’s agenda
than the artist’s actual behavior.