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Reply #180 posted 08/06/19 1:19pm

Genesia

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luv4u said:

AvocadosMax said:

CherryMoon57 said: Did you just say “own OPINION”?? In 2019??????


Note that 'Was' is a past tense word. Nothing wrong with that post. biggrin


That whistling sound you heard was the joke flying over your head.

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #181 posted 08/06/19 2:23pm

luv4u

Moderator

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moderator

Genesia said:

luv4u said:


Note that 'Was' is a past tense word. Nothing wrong with that post. biggrin


That whistling sound you heard was the joke flying over your head.


lol

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Reply #182 posted 08/06/19 8:09pm

RJP1205

I have no clue how Prince felt in his heart, but he was very supportive of Janelle Monae and she is pansexual. Maybe Prince was in a mood that day he talked to Wendy...we just don't know. I never thought he was a homophobe but again, just my opinion.
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Reply #183 posted 08/06/19 9:30pm

ISaidLifeIsJus
tAGame

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RJP1205 said:

I have no clue how Prince felt in his heart, but he was very supportive of Janelle Monae and she is pansexual. Maybe Prince was in a mood that day he talked to Wendy...we just don't know. I never thought he was a homophobe but again, just my opinion.



Let's not play nice.



P was a homophobe for a period of time in his life to placate Larry, and the JWs for religious reasons.

Someone told me on another thread that during the Rainbow Children listening party at PP Larry compared homosexuality to drug addiction.



I don't hold this against P though.

He was doing what he thought he needed to do during that period of his life.



P became evolved once again during his later years, as it appears many lesbians frequented PP.

Just my opinion. lol

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Reply #184 posted 08/07/19 4:19am

NouveauDance

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CherryMoon57 said:

Prince was entitled to his own opinion, like everyone else.

The OPs question is what his opinion was, not if we're all entitled to one.

.

People can have whatever opinion they want, but if you express that opinion on a public platform, people have the right to express their own opinion about yours. Welcome to the free world.

.

I put this to everyone in this thread to read between the lines of what people do and do not say when addressing these kind of topics. Just like when we call out public figures for using dog whistles or gaslighting groups of people, look carefully at what people say in threads like this.

.

.

[Edited 8/7/19 4:27am]

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Reply #185 posted 08/07/19 5:02am

CherryMoon57

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VaultCurator said:

Ok, so in summary... An effeminate man, with a flamboyant fashion sense, who frequently wore high heels, who changed his name to a symbol that incorporated both genders, had a candidly open and liberal worldview when it came to sexuality, has been famously depicted sitting naked on an orchid, and released an album called The Rainbow Children, turned out to have a problem with gay people. Yeah, Prince was a bit odd.


I never saw Prince's style as 'effeminate' or even 'odd', whatever that means. There is a strong misconception regarding the type of footwear or clothing that Prince wore. The first were heeled boots similar to those originally worn by men in the persian cavalry then taken up by European aristocrats up until the 18th century.

In those days, heeled boots represented masculinity and prestige and were later borrowed from men by women who wanted to compete with the male status. Likewise, Prince's clothing inspiration tapped into timeless male fashion and were his own unique blend of regency's jabots, toreadors' high waist and cropped jackets mixed with the 60's/70's paisley trend.

This has nothing to do with how he viewed gay people.

d874f9c7cbdcd2eca42cc3cf279b56de--los-matadores-matador-costume.jpg


b5bf24eeb4f9e01e114a2e34444a830f.jpg Interesting-History-of-High-Heels.jpg-nggid0238-ngg0dyn-480x360x100-00f0w010c010r110f110r010t010.jpgd03fc7a093bbc04855523a37c2313cbb.jpg

[Edited 8/7/19 11:13am]

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Reply #186 posted 08/07/19 5:28am

RJP1205

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:



RJP1205 said:


I have no clue how Prince felt in his heart, but he was very supportive of Janelle Monae and she is pansexual. Maybe Prince was in a mood that day he talked to Wendy...we just don't know. I never thought he was a homophobe but again, just my opinion.



Let's not play nice.




P was a homophobe for a period of time in his life to placate Larry, and the JWs for religious reasons.


Someone told me on another thread that during the Rainbow Children listening party at PP Larry compared homosexuality to drug addiction.




I don't hold this against P though.


He was doing what he thought he needed to do during that period of his life.




P became evolved once again during his later years, as it appears many lesbians frequented PP.


Just my opinion. lol



I always play nice... that's why I don't comment much here. 😊 I was looking at this question as overall, throughout his life and mostly how P was before he passed...sure, he was under Larry's spell for a bit but who was he at his core? I just don't get a homophobe vibe.
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Reply #187 posted 08/07/19 5:31am

CherryMoon57

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NouveauDance said:

CherryMoon57 said:

Prince was entitled to his own opinion, like everyone else.

The OPs question is what his opinion was, not if we're all entitled to one.

.

People can have whatever opinion they want, but if you express that opinion on a public platform, people have the right to express their own opinion about yours. Welcome to the free world.

.

I put this to everyone in this thread to read between the lines of what people do and do not say when addressing these kind of topics. Just like when we call out public figures for using dog whistles or gaslighting groups of people, look carefully at what people say in threads like this.

.

.

[Edited 8/7/19 4:27am]


I wholeheartedly agree with your statement and this is why I personally think that the thread title is negative towards Prince. 'Homophobe' has a connotation of predjudice, implying that Prince would be deemed 'in the wrong' for favouring certain sexual practices over others and that everyone who agrees to the other practices is 'in the right'.

And this, to me appears to be favouring one opinion over another.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #188 posted 08/07/19 6:18am

NouveauDance

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CherryMoon57 said:

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement and this is why I personally think that the thread title is negative towards Prince. 'Homophobe' has a connotation of predjudice, implying that Prince would be deemed 'in the wrong' for favouring certain sexual practices over others and that everyone who agrees to the other practices is 'in the right'.

And this, to me appears to be favouring one opinion over another.

Nice try, but no cigar. I reiterate what I previously said, because it applies to this post too.

.

Like others I've called out in this thread - your words are transparent to me, and hopefully others, we've seen it all before and much worse.

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Reply #189 posted 08/07/19 6:24am

CherryMoon57

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NouveauDance said:

CherryMoon57 said:

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement and this is why I personally think that the thread title is negative towards Prince. 'Homophobe' has a connotation of predjudice, implying that Prince would be deemed 'in the wrong' for favouring certain sexual practices over others and that everyone who agrees to the other practices is 'in the right'.

And this, to me appears to be favouring one opinion over another.

Nice try, but no cigar. I reiterate what I previously said, because it applies to this post too.

.

Like others I've called out in this thread - your words are transparent to me, and hopefully others, we've seen it all before and much worse.


Ok, and don't forget to call out on Prince's legacy while you're at it.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #190 posted 08/07/19 5:17pm

AvocadosMax

Genesia said:

It's a good thing Prince lived and created when he did. The woke police would have doxxed and destroyed him if he was just getting started now. rolleyes


Prince was legit woke. The ‘woke police’ are just obnoxious. They wouldn’t be able to handle his authentic wokeness
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Reply #191 posted 08/10/19 10:02am

violetcrush

CherryMoon57 said:

VaultCurator said:

Ok, so in summary... An effeminate man, with a flamboyant fashion sense, who frequently wore high heels, who changed his name to a symbol that incorporated both genders, had a candidly open and liberal worldview when it came to sexuality, has been famously depicted sitting naked on an orchid, and released an album called The Rainbow Children, turned out to have a problem with gay people. Yeah, Prince was a bit odd.


I never saw Prince's style as 'effeminate' or even 'odd', whatever that means. There is a strong misconception regarding the type of footwear or clothing that Prince wore. The first were heeled boots similar to those originally worn by men in the persian cavalry then taken up by European aristocrats up until the 18th century.

In those days, heeled boots represented masculinity and prestige and were later borrowed from men by women who wanted to compete with the male status. Likewise, Prince's clothing inspiration tapped into timeless male fashion and were his own unique blend of regency's jabots, toreadors' high waist and cropped jackets mixed with the 60's/70's paisley trend.

This has nothing to do with how he viewed gay people.

d874f9c7cbdcd2eca42cc3cf279b56de--los-matadores-matador-costume.jpg


b5bf24eeb4f9e01e114a2e34444a830f.jpg Interesting-History-of-High-Heels.jpg-nggid0238-ngg0dyn-480x360x100-00f0w010c010r110f110r010t010.jpgd03fc7a093bbc04855523a37c2313cbb.jpg

[Edited 8/7/19 11:13am]

Prince's decision to always wear heels was inspired by Carlos Santana (who always wore high heeled boots) - not the persian calvary. He answered this in his August 1998 interview in Spain (it's posted on YT) when specifically asked why he chose to always wear heels. He also often stated that he wore heels "because the women like it". More than likely though, his main reason was to increase his height. Very hard to always be the shortest guy in the room, and often shorter than most women.

*

Prince also had designers assisting him with ideas for his "looks" throughout the years. Marie France and Louis & Vaughn were his main designers during the Purple Rain era. Once PP was built he had an entire wardrobe/designer dept creating and making clothes for him and his associates. I'm sure he gave his input, but they would have been presenting ideas to him.

*

I think Lisa Coleman described Prince best when, in 2009, she stated, "he was a fancy lesbian", which is basically stating that he was a lesbian trapped in a man's body. He was only attracted to women, but he was also very in touch with his feminine side. I thnk this is why writing songs for women/from a woman's perspective came so easy for him.

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Reply #192 posted 08/10/19 10:14am

violetcrush

RJP1205 said:

I have no clue how Prince felt in his heart, but he was very supportive of Janelle Monae and she is pansexual. Maybe Prince was in a mood that day he talked to Wendy...we just don't know. I never thought he was a homophobe but again, just my opinion.

Didn't Janelle come out as pansexual much later?? I don't recall her being open about her sexuality when Prince was working with her. I could be wrong, so please correct me if that is the case.

*

I think Prince's views on sexuality evolved in the same way that his religious views did - he had his own specific feelings yet he was stll open to other viewpoints/lifestyles in his younger days, however, as he aged his views on both religion and sexuality became closed with regard to those that differed from his own.

*

No question that his moving to the JW religion resulted in his hard line views toward sexuality and religious beliefs. He demonstrated this many times in interviews and during his live performances.

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Reply #193 posted 08/10/19 11:23am

CherryMoon57

avatar

violetcrush said:

CherryMoon57 said:


I never saw Prince's style as 'effeminate' or even 'odd', whatever that means. There is a strong misconception regarding the type of footwear or clothing that Prince wore. The first were heeled boots similar to those originally worn by men in the persian cavalry then taken up by European aristocrats up until the 18th century.

In those days, heeled boots represented masculinity and prestige and were later borrowed from men by women who wanted to compete with the male status. Likewise, Prince's clothing inspiration tapped into timeless male fashion and were his own unique blend of regency's jabots, toreadors' high waist and cropped jackets mixed with the 60's/70's paisley trend.

This has nothing to do with how he viewed gay people.

d874f9c7cbdcd2eca42cc3cf279b56de--los-matadores-matador-costume.jpg


b5bf24eeb4f9e01e114a2e34444a830f.jpg Interesting-History-of-High-Heels.jpg-nggid0238-ngg0dyn-480x360x100-00f0w010c010r110f110r010t010.jpgd03fc7a093bbc04855523a37c2313cbb.jpg

[Edited 8/7/19 11:13am]

Prince's decision to always wear heels was inspired by Carlos Santana (who always wore high heeled boots) - not the persian calvary. He answered this in his August 1998 interview in Spain (it's posted on YT) when specifically asked why he chose to always wear heels. He also often stated that he wore heels "because the women like it". More than likely though, his main reason was to increase his height. Very hard to always be the shortest guy in the room, and often shorter than most women.

*

Prince also had designers assisting him with ideas for his "looks" throughout the years. Marie France and Louis & Vaughn were his main designers during the Purple Rain era. Once PP was built he had an entire wardrobe/designer dept creating and making clothes for him and his associates. I'm sure he gave his input, but they would have been presenting ideas to him.

*

I think Lisa Coleman described Prince best when, in 2009, she stated, "he was a fancy lesbian", which is basically stating that he was a lesbian trapped in a man's body. He was only attracted to women, but he was also very in touch with his feminine side. I thnk this is why writing songs for women/from a woman's perspective came so easy for him.


Thanks for the information but I never said that Prince's choice of boots was directly inspired by the persian calvary or that he didn't have any fashion advisors. I said that they were 'heeled boots similar to those originally worn by men in the persian cavalry then taken up by European aristocrats up until the 18th century.' And the photos I posted above clearly illustrate this.

What I meant is that the boots were a derivation from those. It was a comment in response to VaultCurator who had insinuated that Prince wore 'high heels', a term normally used to refer to women's -escarpin type - heeled shoes. Also, Carlos Santana was not the only artist who wore these kind of boots in the seventies, because it was a general trend (from glam rock, disco to cowboy boots) for many men at the time, especially those who had a smaller stature. My point remains the same: Prince didn't wear women's shoes.

As for what Lisa said/thinks about Prince, it does not really shed any more light on what Prince himself thought of homosexuality, but thanks for sharing anyway.

Regarding your last comment, one could argue that Prince understood the female perspective better simply because he was a very perceptive man in general.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #194 posted 08/10/19 11:56am

violetcrush

CherryMoon57 said:

violetcrush said:

Prince's decision to always wear heels was inspired by Carlos Santana (who always wore high heeled boots) - not the persian calvary. He answered this in his August 1998 interview in Spain (it's posted on YT) when specifically asked why he chose to always wear heels. He also often stated that he wore heels "because the women like it". More than likely though, his main reason was to increase his height. Very hard to always be the shortest guy in the room, and often shorter than most women.

*

Prince also had designers assisting him with ideas for his "looks" throughout the years. Marie France and Louis & Vaughn were his main designers during the Purple Rain era. Once PP was built he had an entire wardrobe/designer dept creating and making clothes for him and his associates. I'm sure he gave his input, but they would have been presenting ideas to him.

*

I think Lisa Coleman described Prince best when, in 2009, she stated, "he was a fancy lesbian", which is basically stating that he was a lesbian trapped in a man's body. He was only attracted to women, but he was also very in touch with his feminine side. I thnk this is why writing songs for women/from a woman's perspective came so easy for him.


Thanks for the information but I never said that Prince's choice of boots was directly inspired by the persian calvary or that he didn't have any fashion advisors. I said that they were 'heeled boots similar to those originally worn by men in the persian cavalry then taken up by European aristocrats up until the 18th century.' And the photos I posted above clearly illustrate this.

What I meant is that the boots were a derivation from those. It was a comment in response to VaultCurator who had insinuated that Prince wore 'high heels', a term normally used to refer to women's -escarpin type - heeled shoes. Also, Carlos Santana was not the only artist who wore these kind of boots in the seventies, because it was a general trend (from glam rock, disco to cowboy boots) for many men at the time, especially those who had a smaller stature. My point remains the same: Prince didn't wear women's shoes.

As for what Lisa said/thinks about Prince, it does not really shed any more light on what Prince himself thought of homosexuality, but thanks for sharing anyway.

Regarding your last comment, one could argue that Prince understood the female perspective better simply because he was a very perceptive man in general.

This was your comment to which I was responding:

*

"In those days, heeled boots represented masculinity and prestige and were later borrowed from men by women who wanted to compete with the male status. Likewise, Prince's clothing inspiration tapped into timeless male fashion and were his own unique blend of regency's jabots, toreadors' high waist and cropped jackets mixed with the 60's/70's paisley trend."

*

My point was that I don't think Prince's use of high heeled boots was a result of him "tapping into that timeless male fashion trend of the European aristocrats" as you stated above. They are actually a form of "high heel" (so VaultCurator is correct in using that term), as the same style of boot is also available in women's fashion. During his 1998 press conference in Spain, when asked the reason for why he wore heels, Prince replied: "Carlos Santana is to blame for my shoes". He went on to explain that he had seen a poster of Carlos wearing the high heeled boots when he was younger.

*

Just found the interview again on YT...

*

Reporter: "So what's with the high heels, is that some sort of image that's been going on for all of these years?"

*

Prince: "Yes. One of my heroes, Carlos Santana, is to blame for my shoes."

*

Reporter: "Why is that?"

*

Prince: "In all his early posters he had on shoes higher than mine. And I tried an experiment recently - I played guitar in flat shoes, and it was like Samson with no hair."

*

I think for a man to really understand the female perspective as Prince did - especially with regard to style and fashion interests - he would need to be in touch with a "feminine" side on a much higher level than the average man.

[Edited 8/10/19 12:08pm]

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Reply #195 posted 08/10/19 4:36pm

CherryMoon57

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violetcrush said:

CherryMoon57 said:


Thanks for the information but I never said that Prince's choice of boots was directly inspired by the persian calvary or that he didn't have any fashion advisors. I said that they were 'heeled boots similar to those originally worn by men in the persian cavalry then taken up by European aristocrats up until the 18th century.' And the photos I posted above clearly illustrate this.

What I meant is that the boots were a derivation from those. It was a comment in response to VaultCurator who had insinuated that Prince wore 'high heels', a term normally used to refer to women's -escarpin type - heeled shoes. Also, Carlos Santana was not the only artist who wore these kind of boots in the seventies, because it was a general trend (from glam rock, disco to cowboy boots) for many men at the time, especially those who had a smaller stature. My point remains the same: Prince didn't wear women's shoes.

As for what Lisa said/thinks about Prince, it does not really shed any more light on what Prince himself thought of homosexuality, but thanks for sharing anyway.

Regarding your last comment, one could argue that Prince understood the female perspective better simply because he was a very perceptive man in general.

This was your comment to which I was responding:

*

"In those days, heeled boots represented masculinity and prestige and were later borrowed from men by women who wanted to compete with the male status. Likewise, Prince's clothing inspiration tapped into timeless male fashion and were his own unique blend of regency's jabots, toreadors' high waist and cropped jackets mixed with the 60's/70's paisley trend."

*

My point was that I don't think Prince's use of high heeled boots was a result of him "tapping into that timeless male fashion trend of the European aristocrats" as you stated above. They are actually a form of "high heel" (so VaultCurator is correct in using that term), as the same style of boot is also available in women's fashion. During his 1998 press conference in Spain, when asked the reason for why he wore heels, Prince replied: "Carlos Santana is to blame for my shoes". He went on to explain that he had seen a poster of Carlos wearing the high heeled boots when he was younger.

*

Just found the interview again on YT...

*

Reporter: "So what's with the high heels, is that some sort of image that's been going on for all of these years?"

*

Prince: "Yes. One of my heroes, Carlos Santana, is to blame for my shoes."

*

Reporter: "Why is that?"

*

Prince: "In all his early posters he had on shoes higher than mine. And I tried an experiment recently - I played guitar in flat shoes, and it was like Samson with no hair."

*

I think for a man to really understand the female perspective as Prince did - especially with regard to style and fashion interests - he would need to be in touch with a "feminine" side on a much higher level than the average man.

[Edited 8/10/19 12:08pm]


So basically we both agree that Prince wore men's boots... since Carlos is a man. lol

But anyway, you were not inside Prince's head. Just because he talked about one influence does not exclude other possible influences, especially when these are obvious to the eye. I mean a jabot is a jabot, no matter who designs it now, it was already invented in the 17th century and was a timeless piece of male fashion. The result is that Prince dressed like... a prince!

As for the female perspective, Prince was an artist and loved art. Fashion, music, dancing, photography, his interests involved many aspects of visual arts and concepts, which as far as I know, are not solely reserved for women. So why attribute this to his 'feminine' side? Why not his 'artistic' side?


Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #196 posted 08/10/19 7:16pm

violetcrush

CherryMoon57 said:



violetcrush said:




CherryMoon57 said:




Thanks for the information but I never said that Prince's choice of boots was directly inspired by the persian calvary or that he didn't have any fashion advisors. I said that they were 'heeled boots similar to those originally worn by men in the persian cavalry then taken up by European aristocrats up until the 18th century.' And the photos I posted above clearly illustrate this.

What I meant is that the boots were a derivation from those. It was a comment in response to VaultCurator who had insinuated that Prince wore 'high heels', a term normally used to refer to women's -escarpin type - heeled shoes. Also, Carlos Santana was not the only artist who wore these kind of boots in the seventies, because it was a general trend (from glam rock, disco to cowboy boots) for many men at the time, especially those who had a smaller stature. My point remains the same: Prince didn't wear women's shoes.

As for what Lisa said/thinks about Prince, it does not really shed any more light on what Prince himself thought of homosexuality, but thanks for sharing anyway.

Regarding your last comment, one could argue that Prince understood the female perspective better simply because he was a very perceptive man in general.




This was your comment to which I was responding:


*


"In those days, heeled boots represented masculinity and prestige and were later borrowed from men by women who wanted to compete with the male status. Likewise, Prince's clothing inspiration tapped into timeless male fashion and were his own unique blend of regency's jabots, toreadors' high waist and cropped jackets mixed with the 60's/70's paisley trend."


*


My point was that I don't think Prince's use of high heeled boots was a result of him "tapping into that timeless male fashion trend of the European aristocrats" as you stated above. They are actually a form of "high heel" (so VaultCurator is correct in using that term), as the same style of boot is also available in women's fashion. During his 1998 press conference in Spain, when asked the reason for why he wore heels, Prince replied: "Carlos Santana is to blame for my shoes". He went on to explain that he had seen a poster of Carlos wearing the high heeled boots when he was younger.


*


Just found the interview again on YT...


*


Reporter: "So what's with the high heels, is that some sort of image that's been going on for all of these years?"


*


Prince: "Yes. One of my heroes, Carlos Santana, is to blame for my shoes."


*


Reporter: "Why is that?"


*


Prince: "In all his early posters he had on shoes higher than mine. And I tried an experiment recently - I played guitar in flat shoes, and it was like Samson with no hair."


*


I think for a man to really understand the female perspective as Prince did - especially with regard to style and fashion interests - he would need to be in touch with a "feminine" side on a much higher level than the average man.


[Edited 8/10/19 12:08pm]




So basically we both agree that Prince wore men's boots... since Carlos is a man. lol

But anyway, you were not inside Prince's head. Just because he talked about one influence does not exclude other possible influences, especially when these are obvious to the eye. I mean a jabot is a jabot, no matter who designs it now, it was already invented in the 17th century and was a timeless piece of male fashion. The result is that Prince dressed like... a prince!

As for the female perspective, Prince was an artist and loved art. Fashion, music, dancing, photography, his interests involved many aspects of visual arts and concepts, which as far as I know, are not solely reserved for women. So why attribute this to his 'feminine' side? Why not his 'artistic' side?



The only similarity to Carlos’s boots was the high heel biggrin Carlos wore very masculine cowboy style boots - not the fancy colorful styles that Prince wore. His boots were very feminine - pointed toe and thin high heel.
*
Yes, Prince had many artistic interests outside of music, but that is different than having a deeper connection to the feminine. His style (clothes, make-up, hair) and his ability to write for women are tied to that connection. He also felt more comfortable working with women.
*
I do agree that he often dressed regally both on and off stage. Though he also dressed in a feminine/sexy way - the tight Lycra cropped top and pants in ‘86; the backless tops in the mid 90’s...so it was a mix.
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Reply #197 posted 08/10/19 7:35pm

violetcrush

Here you go....feminine/sexy Prince :

*

Image result for prince parade era

*

Image result for prince diamonds and pearls era

*

Image result for prince the versace experience

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Reply #198 posted 08/10/19 7:42pm

violetcrush

Another pair of Prince's boots which he designed. I have a pair just like them...minus the symbol zipper smile

*

Image result for prince 1994

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Reply #199 posted 08/10/19 7:45pm

violetcrush

Prince 1994:

*

Related image

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Reply #200 posted 08/11/19 1:53am

CherryMoon57

avatar

Shoes,1690–1700

French

The French Court championed excessively ornamented clothing and accessories, perhaps as a manifestation of the romantically exuberant decorative arts, or as a reflection of the gross superficiality of social custom. In the same fashion that the formal women's robe à la francaise was designed to showcase the luxurious embroideries and silk damask fabrics of the century, so too did the impossibly tight breeches, skirted waistcoats, and shapely shoes of menswear provide an adequate canvas for the period's woven artistry. Men's adornment was every bit imbued with the elegance, tactile variance, and ostentation that marked women's clothing of the era. The fashionable eighteenth–century man was expected to convey a certain grace, and was required to enjoy the fine arts, music, and dancing. The romantic curviture of these shoes encourages the voyeuristic eye, each arc paralleled by the sensuality of the male arch and calf.


https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/80000195

Mens shoes 1690-1700 French, silk and leather  Men's adornment was every bit imbued with the elegance, tactile variance, and ostentation that marked women's clothing of the era. The fashionable eighteenthâcentury man was expected to convey a certain grace, and was required to enjoy the fine arts, music, and dancing. The romantic curviture of these shoes encourages the voyeuristic eye, each arc paralleled by the sensuality of the male arch and calf.

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #201 posted 08/11/19 2:20am

CherryMoon57

avatar

Sexy means 'sexually attractive' violetcrush, not 'feminine'. cool

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #202 posted 08/11/19 10:33am

violetcrush

CherryMoon57 said:

Sexy means 'sexually attractive' violetcrush, not 'feminine'. cool

I tend to disagree with that statement. I think there are absolutely masculine and feminine aspects to being sexually attractive, and Prince inorporated them both. He could wear heavy makeup, traaditionally feminine clothing (which often accentuated his "male parts") while gyrating his hips and wailing on his guitar - all of which combined to be sexually attractive to many women and I'm sure also many gay men. This is exactly why his own sexuality was often in question. There are many still today who think he was a closeted gay or bi-sexual man.

*

There are men who have a very masculine style, dress in traditionally masculine clothing and who are sexually attractive to many women - say Clint Eastwood or Bruce Springsteen. Those women may not be sexually attracted to Prince due to his mix of the feminine/masculine persona.

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Reply #203 posted 08/11/19 10:51am

violetcrush

CherryMoon57 said:

Shoes,1690–1700

French

The French Court championed excessively ornamented clothing and accessories, perhaps as a manifestation of the romantically exuberant decorative arts, or as a reflection of the gross superficiality of social custom. In the same fashion that the formal women's robe à la francaise was designed to showcase the luxurious embroideries and silk damask fabrics of the century, so too did the impossibly tight breeches, skirted waistcoats, and shapely shoes of menswear provide an adequate canvas for the period's woven artistry. Men's adornment was every bit imbued with the elegance, tactile variance, and ostentation that marked women's clothing of the era. The fashionable eighteenth–century man was expected to convey a certain grace, and was required to enjoy the fine arts, music, and dancing. The romantic curviture of these shoes encourages the voyeuristic eye, each arc paralleled by the sensuality of the male arch and calf.


https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/80000195

Mens shoes 1690-1700 French, silk and leather  Men's adornment was every bit imbued with the elegance, tactile variance, and ostentation that marked women's clothing of the era. The fashionable eighteenthâcentury man was expected to convey a certain grace, and was required to enjoy the fine arts, music, and dancing. The romantic curviture of these shoes encourages the voyeuristic eye, each arc paralleled by the sensuality of the male arch and calf.

You keep posting these 17th and 18th century shoes and outfits, however, they are far from the modern version of both men's and women's boot styles when Prince was wearing his high heeled boots. Yes, Prince adopted the "long jacket, ruffle shirt" style for his Purple Rain tour, but quickly shifted to the tight lybra crop top and pant outfits for his next tour.

*

Prince Purple Rain tour:

*

Related image

*

Notice the pink feather Boa - very feminine, and not too many "masculine" men wearing it at that time. He was absolutely mixing the feminine/masculine sexuality.

*

Prince Parade tour:

*

Related image

*

Completely different look/style - very feminine along with his "maleness" accentuated to combine the masculine and feminine aspects

*

Here's a pic of the high heeled boots currently in my closet. Much more similar to Prince's shoes than those in the 1690 photo you posted:

*

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Reply #204 posted 08/11/19 11:51am

CherryMoon57

avatar

^ Lol That's reaching. The last outfit is just based on a male dancer outfit (as in Modern Jazz, ballet, contemporary, etc) with some additional buttons on it. Please show me pictures from the same era of regular women wearing those in the street. I bet you won't find any. lol

As for the boa, well Jimi Hendrix did that first, do you think he was expressing a 'feminine side' when he did it?

Image result for jimi hendrix wearing a boa

But anyway, I give up because you are purposely trying to portray Prince as an 'effeminate' man just like VaultCurator did. Please come back when you have educated yourself, not just blindly projecting your own preconceptions onto Prince.

Also I think we have totally gone out of topic now, because not matter what people wear, it still doesn't reveal what they really think in terms of approval or non-approval of homosexuality.

Heck, there are virile bearded men who are homosexual so what is it you are trying to demonstrate here violetcrush?

Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #205 posted 08/11/19 1:07pm

violetcrush

CherryMoon57 said:

^ Lol That's reaching. The last outfit is just based on a male dancer outfit (as in Modern Jazz, ballet, contemporary, etc) with some additional buttons on it. Please show me pictures from the same era of regular women wearing those in the street. I bet you won't find any. lol

As for the boa, well Jimi Hendrix did that first, do you think he was expressing a 'feminine side' when he did it?

Image result for jimi hendrix wearing a boa

But anyway, I give up because you are purposely trying to portray Prince as an 'effeminate' man just like VaultCurator did. Please come back when you have educated yourself, not just blindly projecting your own preconceptions onto Prince.

Also I think we have totally gone out of topic now, because not matter what people wear, it still doesn't reveal what they really think in terms of approval or non-approval of homosexuality.

Heck, there are virile bearded men who are homosexual so what is it you are trying to demonstrate here violetcrush?

Yes, I agree this is off topic, because we both have been discussing/debating whether Prince mixed both the feminine and masculine aspects within his style of dress and performances.

*

Prince's mixing of the feminine/masculine and how people/the press/fans have perceived him has long been discussed both in the press and by Prince himselff - even within his songs:

*

Prince - Uptown:

*

She saw me walking down the streets of your fine city
It kinda turned me on when she looked at me and said, "come here"
Now I don't usually talk to strangers but she looked so pretty
What can I lose, if I, uh, just give her a little ear?
"What's up little girl?"
"I ain't got time to play"
Baby didn't say too much
She said, "Are you gay?"
Kinda took me by surprise, I didn't know what to do
I just looked her in her eyes and I said, "no, are you?"

*

Rolling Stone 1981:

*

Will the little girls understand?

Bill Adler

"Snaking out from the wings toward center stage at the Ritz, prancing like a pony with his hands on his hips and then flinging a clorine kick with a coquettish toss of his head, Prince is androgyny personified. Slender and doe-eyed, with a faint pubescent mustache, he is bare-chested beneath a gray, hip-length Edwardian jacket. There’s a raffish red scarf at this neck, and he’s wearing tight black bikini briefs, thigh-high black leg-warmers and black-fringed go-go boots. With his racially and sexually mixed five-piece band churning out the terse rhythms of “Sexy Dancer” behind him, the effect is at once truly sexy and more than a little disorienting , and his breathy falsetto only adds to his ambiguity – for sheer girlish vulnerability, there’s no one around to touch him: not Michael Jackson, not even fourteen-year-old soul songbird Stacy Lattisaw. At age twenty, Prince may be the unlikeliest rock star, black or white, in recent memory—but a star he definitely is."

*

"Prince has written, arranged, performed and produced three albums to date (For You, Princeand Dirty Mind), all presenting the same unique persona. Appearances to the contrary, though, he says he’s not gay, and he has a standard rebuff for overenthusiastic male fans: “I’m not about that; we can be friends, but that’s as far as it goes. My sexual preferences really aren’t any of their business.” A Penthouse “Pet of the Month” centerfold laid out on a nearby table silently underscores his point."

*

Prince interviewed by Kurt Loder in 1999:

*

Loder: Do you still have those little outfits laying around?

*
Prince: "Now, what you wanna know that for? Ain't you got a woman at home?"

*

Chris Rock, during his 1997 interview with Prince also discussed his androgynous look and style.

*

It has been commonly known and written about since Prince began his career.




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Reply #206 posted 08/11/19 2:23pm

Missmusicluver
72

I personally don't think he was a homophobe. Perhaps when he was more involved with the JW he may have seemed very turned off about the lifestyle. He was both the ultimate ladies man, manly man (feminine/masculine) but then very comfortable and confident in expressing the androgny part (songs, makeup, heels, revealing clothes)especially earlier in has career. I think he was having fun in stirring the pot and creating controversy.

[Edited 8/11/19 14:35pm]

[Edited 8/11/19 14:38pm]

Love is God, God is love, girls and boys love God above~
The only Love there is, is the Love We Make~
Prince4Ever
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Reply #207 posted 08/11/19 2:31pm

CherryMoon57

avatar

violetcrush said:

CherryMoon57 said:

^ Lol That's reaching. The last outfit is just based on a male dancer outfit (as in Modern Jazz, ballet, contemporary, etc) with some additional buttons on it. Please show me pictures from the same era of regular women wearing those in the street. I bet you won't find any. lol

As for the boa, well Jimi Hendrix did that first, do you think he was expressing a 'feminine side' when he did it?

Image result for jimi hendrix wearing a boa

But anyway, I give up because you are purposely trying to portray Prince as an 'effeminate' man just like VaultCurator did. Please come back when you have educated yourself, not just blindly projecting your own preconceptions onto Prince.

Also I think we have totally gone out of topic now, because not matter what people wear, it still doesn't reveal what they really think in terms of approval or non-approval of homosexuality.

Heck, there are virile bearded men who are homosexual so what is it you are trying to demonstrate here violetcrush?

Yes, I agree this is off topic, because we both have been discussing/debating whether Prince mixed both the feminine and masculine aspects within his style of dress and performances.

*

Prince's mixing of the feminine/masculine and how people/the press/fans have perceived him has long been discussed both in the press and by Prince himselff - even within his songs:

*

Prince - Uptown:

*

She saw me walking down the streets of your fine city
It kinda turned me on when she looked at me and said, "come here"
Now I don't usually talk to strangers but she looked so pretty
What can I lose, if I, uh, just give her a little ear?
"What's up little girl?"
"I ain't got time to play"
Baby didn't say too much
She said, "Are you gay?"
Kinda took me by surprise, I didn't know what to do
I just looked her in her eyes and I said, "no, are you?"

*

Rolling Stone 1981:

*

Will the little girls understand?

Bill Adler

"Snaking out from the wings toward center stage at the Ritz, prancing like a pony with his hands on his hips and then flinging a clorine kick with a coquettish toss of his head, Prince is androgyny personified. Slender and doe-eyed, with a faint pubescent mustache, he is bare-chested beneath a gray, hip-length Edwardian jacket. There’s a raffish red scarf at this neck, and he’s wearing tight black bikini briefs, thigh-high black leg-warmers and black-fringed go-go boots. With his racially and sexually mixed five-piece band churning out the terse rhythms of “Sexy Dancer” behind him, the effect is at once truly sexy and more than a little disorienting , and his breathy falsetto only adds to his ambiguity – for sheer girlish vulnerability, there’s no one around to touch him: not Michael Jackson, not even fourteen-year-old soul songbird Stacy Lattisaw. At age twenty, Prince may be the unlikeliest rock star, black or white, in recent memory—but a star he definitely is."

*

"Prince has written, arranged, performed and produced three albums to date (For You, Princeand Dirty Mind), all presenting the same unique persona. Appearances to the contrary, though, he says he’s not gay, and he has a standard rebuff for overenthusiastic male fans: “I’m not about that; we can be friends, but that’s as far as it goes. My sexual preferences really aren’t any of their business.” A Penthouse “Pet of the Month” centerfold laid out on a nearby table silently underscores his point."

*

Prince interviewed by Kurt Loder in 1999:

*

Loder: Do you still have those little outfits laying around?

*
Prince: "Now, what you wanna know that for? Ain't you got a woman at home?"

*

Chris Rock, during his 1997 interview with Prince also discussed his androgynous look and style.

*

It has been commonly known and written about since Prince began his career.


I am not entirely sure how Prince would have felt about that Bill Adler article. Just another journalist stirring the preconceptions pot by publishing more nonsense about Prince being 'girly'...

Thanks violet but what does that tell us about how Prince himself viewed homosexuality?

->Nothing

Now, how about listening to the rest of that song you posted?

...

She said, "Are you gay?"
Kinda took me by surprise, I didn't know what to do
I just looked her in her eyes and I said, "no, are you?"
Said to myself, said
"She's just a crazy, crazy, crazy little mixed up dame
She's just a victim of society and all its games"
Now where I come from
We don't let society tell us how it's supposed to be
Our clothes, our hair, we don't care
It's all about being there
Everybody's going uptown
That's where I want to be
Uptown
Set your mind free
Uptown
Got my body hot
Get down
I don't want to stop, no
As soon as we got there good times were rolling
White, Black, Puerto Rican, everybody just a-freakin'
Good times were rolling
She started dancing in the streets
Ow, girl, she's just gone mad, you know
She even made love to me
Ooh, best night I ever had, ah yeah
I never talk to strangers but this time it's all right
See, she got me hot, ah, I couldn't stop, ah
Good times were rolling all night, all night, yeah
Now, where I come from we don't give a damn
We do whatever we please
It ain't about no downtown, nowhere-bound, narrow-minded drag
It's all about being free
Everybody's going uptown
It's where I want to be
Uptown
You can set your mind free, yeah
Uptown


Open your heart open your mind
A train is leaving all day
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Reply #208 posted 08/11/19 2:40pm

violetcrush

Missmusicluver72 said:

I personally don't think he was a homophobe. Perhaps when he was more involved with the JW may have seemed very turned off about the lifestyle. He was both the ultimate ladies man, manly man (feminine/masculine) but then very comfortable and confident in expressing the androgny part (songs, makeup, heels, revealing clothes)especially earlier in has career. Of course some may speculate was he closeted gay or bi, but hey, seems like that is the case with alot of male celebs whom the ladies love.

The androgynous thing was just an act on stage - to get attention and keep people guessing. He was a genius with his image and stage persona in the 1980's. But yes, he was very comfortable playing the masculine/feminine roles both on stage and with his music. He knew how to do both sides very well.

*

I agree, he was not a homophobe, but I don't think he necessarily approved of homosexuality. The song Bambi sort of shows that in earlier years, and then his strong opinions after joining the JW. He did remain friends with Wendy and Lisa (with the exception of the few years right after he became hard core JW), so that demonstrates his softening his stance on it at least a little bit. Hardcore Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. That would have been what he was taught as a child, and then enforced again within the JW faith.

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Reply #209 posted 08/11/19 3:40pm

violetcrush

CherryMoon57 said:

violetcrush said:

Yes, I agree this is off topic, because we both have been discussing/debating whether Prince mixed both the feminine and masculine aspects within his style of dress and performances.

*

Prince's mixing of the feminine/masculine and how people/the press/fans have perceived him has long been discussed both in the press and by Prince himselff - even within his songs:

*

Prince - Uptown:

*

She saw me walking down the streets of your fine city
It kinda turned me on when she looked at me and said, "come here"
Now I don't usually talk to strangers but she looked so pretty
What can I lose, if I, uh, just give her a little ear?
"What's up little girl?"
"I ain't got time to play"
Baby didn't say too much
She said, "Are you gay?"
Kinda took me by surprise, I didn't know what to do
I just looked her in her eyes and I said, "no, are you?"

*

Rolling Stone 1981:

*

Will the little girls understand?

Bill Adler

"Snaking out from the wings toward center stage at the Ritz, prancing like a pony with his hands on his hips and then flinging a clorine kick with a coquettish toss of his head, Prince is androgyny personified. Slender and doe-eyed, with a faint pubescent mustache, he is bare-chested beneath a gray, hip-length Edwardian jacket. There’s a raffish red scarf at this neck, and he’s wearing tight black bikini briefs, thigh-high black leg-warmers and black-fringed go-go boots. With his racially and sexually mixed five-piece band churning out the terse rhythms of “Sexy Dancer” behind him, the effect is at once truly sexy and more than a little disorienting , and his breathy falsetto only adds to his ambiguity – for sheer girlish vulnerability, there’s no one around to touch him: not Michael Jackson, not even fourteen-year-old soul songbird Stacy Lattisaw. At age twenty, Prince may be the unlikeliest rock star, black or white, in recent memory—but a star he definitely is."

*

"Prince has written, arranged, performed and produced three albums to date (For You, Princeand Dirty Mind), all presenting the same unique persona. Appearances to the contrary, though, he says he’s not gay, and he has a standard rebuff for overenthusiastic male fans: “I’m not about that; we can be friends, but that’s as far as it goes. My sexual preferences really aren’t any of their business.” A Penthouse “Pet of the Month” centerfold laid out on a nearby table silently underscores his point."

*

Prince interviewed by Kurt Loder in 1999:

*

Loder: Do you still have those little outfits laying around?

*
Prince: "Now, what you wanna know that for? Ain't you got a woman at home?"

*

Chris Rock, during his 1997 interview with Prince also discussed his androgynous look and style.

*

It has been commonly known and written about since Prince began his career.


I am not entirely sure how Prince would have felt about that Bill Adler article. Just another journalist stirring the preconceptions pot by publishing more nonsense about Prince being 'girly'...

Thanks violet but what does that tell us about how Prince himself viewed homosexuality?

->Nothing

Now, how about listening to the rest of that song you posted?

...

She said, "Are you gay?"
Kinda took me by surprise, I didn't know what to do
I just looked her in her eyes and I said, "no, are you?"
Said to myself, said
"She's just a crazy, crazy, crazy little mixed up dame
She's just a victim of society and all its games"
Now where I come from
We don't let society tell us how it's supposed to be
Our clothes, our hair, we don't care
It's all about being there
Everybody's going uptown
That's where I want to be
Uptown
Set your mind free
Uptown
Got my body hot
Get down
I don't want to stop, no
As soon as we got there good times were rolling
White, Black, Puerto Rican, everybody just a-freakin'
Good times were rolling
She started dancing in the streets
Ow, girl, she's just gone mad, you know
She even made love to me
Ooh, best night I ever had, ah yeah
I never talk to strangers but this time it's all right
See, she got me hot, ah, I couldn't stop, ah
Good times were rolling all night, all night, yeah
Now, where I come from we don't give a damn
We do whatever we please
It ain't about no downtown, nowhere-bound, narrow-minded drag
It's all about being free
Everybody's going uptown
It's where I want to be
Uptown
You can set your mind free, yeah
Uptown


Yep, I know the song very very well. Again, Prince CREATED this persona/image to mess with the press and keep fans guessing/questioning. Dez Dickerson has talked about this. The press was responding exactly the way he wanted and planned them to respond. They were accurately describing the persona that he was emulating on stage. Have you gone back and watched any of the footage from the Dirty Mind/Controversy era?? Even the 1999 tour when he was up in the shadows on the bed thrusting and then kicking his high heeled boot up while throwing his head back - absolutely androgynous.

*

If you really pay attention to the lyrics he's saying dancing, partying, sex...doing whatever we please....good times were rollin'....it's all about being free to dress and act how you want. He says "white, black, Puerto Rican..." not "gay, straight, bi "....everybody's just a freakin'. He was talking about RACE in this song, not sexuality.

*

You also bolded the lyric where, after she asks him if he's gay and he answers no, he then sings, "she's just a crazy, crazy, crazy little mixed up dame..." he's saying just because he's androgynous doesn't mean he's gay. "Our clothes, our hair, we don't care...." He's saying in the song that "society" would classify him as gay based on the way he looks and dresses, but he doesn't care - he's going to do what he wants to do.

*

In a live performance of this song back in 1982 he sang "she said, are you gay? I just looked her in the eyes and said, no is your Mama?" That lyric change implies that he would be offended at being asked that question.

[Edited 8/11/19 15:41pm]

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