[Folks, please stay on topic. This is not a religion or religious topic thread. If you want to talk religion/bible, etc. then it's best if you start a thread over in the P & R forum. This poor thread turned into a derailed train wreck. It's a shame a few tried to ruin a good discussion.]

Vannormal said:

he was mean more than anything, at times, those are the kinds of stories that dissapointed me when I first became a fan. The stories after his death, a rare thing with celebrities, actually showed a lot of the good things he did in secret. Even back in the 80's, susan rogers says that prince was setting up profit sharing and doing things like making sure the roadies had great hotel accomadations, just to name a couple small ones that show who he was.

another example....end of the song.

https://youtu.be/OKUxfCTgkRw

mbdtyler said:

nonesuch said:

Whether Prince was or wasn't a homophobe: what difference does it make to the well-being of gay people? He certainly didn't talk about having us all killed in his lyrics. The real tyrants are occupying the White House, the Kreml, the equivalent in Brazil and so forth.

You don't have to be a viciously violent person to leave a negative impact. Prince's homophobia might seem innocuous to you, but think of the kind of shit that gay people have to put up with and hear on a daily basis. To hear one of your heroes spout that same bullshit probably hurts a lot, and Prince sure as hell wasn't making the world a better place in any way by saying it.

Well, people by and large have to „put uo with shit“ on a daily basis, regardless of their sexual preferences. I am gay and it never hurt a bit noticing that Prince went from being hilariously ambivalent to becoming a part-time-conservative.

Let me state it one more time: Prince didn't parade around making gay people's lifes miserable, because he might not have approved of gay relationships. If you felt let down by your so called heroe, then you might want to ask yourself if you romanticized him a bit too much. „Making the world a better place“: Sorry, but that reads really cheesy. It smells of wanting to heal the world, for you and for me and the entire human race - but, we must stop here and get nore realistic for a start. The entire human race has guns, lots of guns, and it does not use them for hunting, but for killing each other.

The politics of hate spread by the right-wing-assholes here in Germany, by the Tory-pricks in the UK, by Trump, by Putin, by Bolsonaro in Brazil, by you name them - those words of hatred are being taken as legitimation by very weak people to beat up a lesbian couple in a bus in London, which is sending a daunting signal to young gay people that might not have yet come out. So, let's do all we can to stop the politics of hate. But let Prince's former statements outa here. There's no black and white, no gay or straight, no rich or poor, no guilt and no shame where he is now. There's just love. And so be it.

mbdtyler said:

nonesuch said:

Whether Prince was or wasn't a homophobe: what difference does it make to the well-being of gay people? He certainly didn't talk about having us all killed in his lyrics. The real tyrants are occupying the White House, the Kreml, the equivalent in Brazil and so forth.

You don't have to be a viciously violent person to leave a negative impact. Prince's homophobia might seem innocuous to you, but think of the kind of shit that gay people have to put up with and hear on a daily basis. To hear one of your heroes spout that same bullshit probably hurts a lot, and Prince sure as hell wasn't making the world a better place in any way by saying it.

By the way, are you aware of the fact that gay men aren't a bunch of inerrant people? Do you know how much misogynistic behaviour is prevalent within certain cicrcles of gay men? How yout making the world a better place for women, for a start? Oh, and I am male.

Dalia11 said:

In my opinion, Prince was not a homophobe, or disaproved of the lgbt relationships. If he did say something in interviews, songs that was homophobic, then his JW religious beliefs influenced his thinking/communication.

-

...which means he WAS homophobic.

You can't tell me that an adult man, who, let's say, sang throughout his whole life about sex and genders, about wanteing to be a woman as well, etc, is not aware of the fact that he might be influenced by a stupid religion ? I think He was well aware of that. But my guess is that Prince's emotional intelligence was not all that well develloped.. I'm no expert, and one doens't need to be an expert for that matter.

He clearly went with the crap, and chose to not considder the problems he created with the ones he loved the most throughout most of his young stardom for instance.

The three girls that meant a lot to him beforehe got famous.

-

oceanblue said:

endiadj said:

AvocadosMax said: Exactly! Always people trying tear him down even in death.

I couldn't agree more! What is the point of even bringing this up, the man is dead and gone! Even if he was a homophobe or disapproved of lgbt relationships because of his personal beliefs, that was his business, a person has the right to their own beliefs, no matter what they are! You can't control someone or bully them into believing or thinking what you want them to!

1. This stuff was discussed before he died.

2. A lot of this stuff can be found in his music and interviews...

AvocadosMax said:

ho·mo·phobe /ˈhōməˌfōb/ noun a person with a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people. No comment from Prince has suggested he disliked homosexual individuals or was prejudice against them. He just had a belief, rooted from religion, that their lifestyle wasn’t ‘the way’ or however you want to put it. From the comments from Prince, it sounded more like he ‘hated the sin and loved the sinner,’ which isn’t the worst thing in the world. He didn’t deny them humanity or anything. If I were gay, and/or religious, I wouldn’t care at all about how Prince felt bout the matter because at the end of the day it was just an opinion, whether it was rooted from religion or not.

AvocadosMax said:

ItsOnlyMountains said:

as NouveauDance articulated upthread, Prince had no problem embracing his gender fluidity and queerness

See even after his death people try to make Prince fit the picture of their own liking. Can’t let him be pure Prince Rogers Nelson. Prince was a straight male. Fans realize the ‘rude boy’ and risqué acts were just that. Acts.

His actual sexuality is not on debate.

Yeah, you know nothing of Prince if you believe that. By saying what you did, it might seem you have a problem with his outward expression during those days

OldFriends4Sale said:

AvocadosMax said:

ItsOnlyMountains said: See even after his death people try to make Prince fit the picture of their own liking. Can’t let him be pure Prince Rogers Nelson. Prince was a straight male. Fans realize the ‘rude boy’ and risqué acts were just that. Acts.

By saying what you did, it might seem you have a problem with his outward expression during those days

Not at all, my friend. I was just stating how weird it was how people seemingly try to promote their own version of him, ignoring his beliefs in which he clearly stated himself. There was nothing wrong with his risqué attitude. He was showing how a guy can have a somewhat feminine side can still be manly. And it's obvious songs like "Jack U Off" or whatever were obviously for effect. He was good at being that huge mysterious persona. So I'm technically not wrong, you're just not a fan of how bluntly I put out my take

Now that I think about it, "Jack U Off" could have been originally intended for a side protege project, then he was like, "nah this is just too good, it's going on my album"

AvocadosMax said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

By saying what you did, it might seem you have a problem with his outward expression during those days

Not at all, my friend. I was just stating how weird it was how people seemingly try to promote their own version of him, ignoring his beliefs in which he clearly stated himself. There was nothing wrong with his risqué attitude. He was showing how a guy can have a somewhat feminine side can still be manly. And it's obvious songs like "Jack U Off" or whatever were obviously for effect. He was good at being that huge mysterious persona. So I'm technically not wrong, you're just not a fan of how bluntly I put out my take

No, it is that you said "fans realize it was an act" it wasn't an act

People, please calm down! Disapproving of someone's sexual orientation is just pathetic. I am still an avid cocksucker, and never even thought for second about what Prince would have made of it. He wasn't THAT important. His music was. To some. His beliefs never were.

onlyforaminute said:

Bambi, can't you understand? Bambi, it's better with a man Did his views really change thst much simply by being very religious? To me those lyrics don't speak to some grand enlightened state of mind, they are pretty much the average thinking of the regular hetrosexual male.

you must be a woman to not know how hot lesbians are to men. They are the sexiest of the sexy. I love 'em, their so cool, i envy them.

nonesuch said:

People, please calm down! Disapproving of someone's sexual orientation is just pathetic. I am still an avid cocksucker, and never even thought for second about what Prince would have made of it. He wasn't THAT important. His music was. To some. His beliefs never were.

i tend to agree but i wish i could stop feeding into the gay crap most of us in this society have done at some point. It's difficult, just last week I was talking about the pride parade, not in terms of anything other than it wrecking our traffic, my buddy was saying "what are they proud of" and ya know, I didn't say anything about it, my buddy comes from india, i asked him how to say "hijra" the caste of intersexed indians, he told me he didn't even want to say it. Even though it's often superficial, i don't think that kind of talk helps anyone.

[Edited 7/8/19 18:31pm]

PeteSilas said:

onlyforaminute said:

PeteSilas said:

you must be a woman to not know how hot lesbians are to men. They are the sexiest of the sexy. I love 'em, their so cool, i envy them.

I am, but im not chastising the act im just saying it is normal completely unenlightened attitude males young and old have. In other words Prince like most people enspoused incorrect views on homosexuality even then. All she needs is some good ____. Yet, folks clutching pearls and pinning what he said on his new enspoused religious views.

ya, i get your point, was he coming from that perspective or just going for a good shock effect? I don't know. Never can tell, although sometimes you'd think it's obvious where a person's coming from. Take Eddie Murphy's misogny and gay bashing in his 80's comedy and we should have all known something was up with him, we didn't until he was caught with the tranny. Prince, if he was gonna be homophobic, he certainly did strange things to go along with it. Constantly playing with gender ideas for the first 20 years of his career and he never stopped doing the feminine wardrobe and makeup. For most americans, those things would be more than enough for people to mistake him for gay. Ya, I know he was in show business but he was a little too comfortable with that shit. Even little richard showed up without makeup and his hair done at points during his life, not too many pics of prince in normal clothes without makeup that I'm aware of.

[Edited 7/8/19 18:33pm]

You guys are all making this more difficult than it needs to be.

I cited 3 examples of Prince's homophobia (when it came to men) earlier. Here they are again, and this is just 3 of many.

The recent Wendy & Lisa article where he said something to the effect of "you want to record music with me? change your lifestyle first". Now of course this hit wendy hard as she said in the interview. But this wasn't Prince being mean, this was Prince literally being concerned for Wendy's soul. This was during the time when his Jehova Witness religion was at its peek.

The next example is Arsenio Hall 2013 - When asked what his pet peeves were, he mentioned people touching his hair, or running into him, and then shuddered as he said "especially when it's a dude"

The 3rd is this video here, and there are lots of examples live. Go to the end of the video and listen to what he says when a guy shouts out "I love you Prince"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKUxfCTgkRw

In another live concernt his reaction was "there is a little too much bass in that voice"

So now that we have established that Prince was indeed homphobic, let's break it down further.

Prince was called gay his whole life, he wasn't gay, but it really bothered him when he was younger that people thought this. I think this stuck with him his whole life, and when confronted with these situations, he went out of his way to make it quite clear he doesn't roll that way. I think it is just a psychological response that stuck with him over the years.

Phases of homophobia/dissaproval of lifestyle:

Phase One: Non JW years.

Prince was only ever homophobic towards men, he never had an issue with two women being with one another. He probably considered it beautiful. The typical male response is "the only thing better than 1 woman, is 2"

Phase Two: JW years

Still homophobic towards men, and very dissaproving of the gay lifestyle all togther as it went against his religion.

Does this make Prince a bad person? Not at all, he has every right to be homophobic if he wants to, or to not like lake trout. None of these things hurt anyone as they are something that is internal to Prince. We all have shit that happens to us during our lives, experience, upbringing, etc, that shapes who we are, as long as those things don't wind up hurting someone else, I don't see anything wrong with it. Prince never consciously went out of his way to belittle anyone or make them feel less than whole. At the very worst, he had some psycological issues in this category, brought about by life experience, that dictated certain controlled or uncontrolled responses that he has had during the years.

So at the end of the day, Prince hurt nobody by being homophobic, that stance is between Prince and Prince alone, and at the end of the day, the music is still funky, his message is still pure, and what he put in the bank of heaven while he was here, is undisputed.

[Edited 7/8/19 20:04pm]

he wasn't so homophobic as to stop him from wearing girly shit and bragging about his ass and shit. I know part of that was the era, but he did that fem shit better than anyone at the time, he was the leader of the whole fucking thing. Even the gay guys like boy george and george michael didn't bring as much to the table as our man. The sad thing was a he was a hero to a lot of young gay people, it has to feel hurtful to have him turn around and do the things he did. He isn't the only one, like I said, little richard preached against gays even while he never stopped living the lifestyle. With Prince, I don't think he was actually gay, like another poster has said, I'd be surprised if he hadn't done some things though, with men. And let's not pretend like he didn't do the asshumping dance on arsenio or write the gay lyrics, jack u off, annastesia etc..,

leadline said:

You guys are all making this more difficult than it needs to be.

I cited 3 examples of Prince's homophobia (when it came to men) earlier. Here they are again, and this is just 3 of many.

The recent Wendy & Lisa article where he said something to the effect of "you want to record music with me? change your lifestyle first". Now of course this hit wendy hard as she said in the interview. But this wasn't Prince being mean, this was Prince literally being concerned for Wendy's soul. This was during the time when his Jehova Witness religion was at its peek.

The next example is Arsenio Hall 2013 - When asked what his pet peeves were, he mentioned people touching his hair, or running into him, and then shuddered as he said "especially when it's a dude"

The 3rd is this video here, and there are lots of examples live. Go to the end of the video and listen to what he says when a guy shouts out "I love you Prince"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKUxfCTgkRw

In another live concernt his reaction was "there is a little too much bass in that voice"

So now that we have established that Prince was indeed homphobic, let's break it down further.

Prince was called gay his whole life, he wasn't gay, but it really bothered him when he was younger that people thought this. I think this stuck with him his whole life, and when confronted with these situations, he went out of his way to make it quite clear he doesn't roll that way. I think it is just a psychological response that stuck with him over the years.

Phases of homophobia/dissaproval of lifestyle:

Phase One: Non JW years.

Prince was only ever homophobic towards men, he never had an issue with two women being with one another. He probably considered it beautiful. The typical make response is "the only thing better than 1 woman, is 2"

Phase Two: JW years

Still homophobic towards men, and very dissaproving of the gay lifestyle all togther as it went against his religion.

Does this make Prince a bad person? Not at all, he has every right to be homophobic if he wants to, or to not like lake trout. None of these things hurt anyone as they are something that is internal to Prince. We all have shit that happens to us during our lives, experience, upbringing, etc, that shapes who we are, as long as those things don't wind up hurting someone else, I don't see anything wrong with it. Prince never consciously went out of his way to belittle anyone or make them feel less than whole. At the very worst, he had some psycological issues in this category, brought about by life experience, that dictated certain controlled or uncontrolled responses that he has had during the years.

So at the end of the day, Prince hurt nobody by being homophobic, that stance is between Prince and Prince alone, and at the end of the day, the music is still funky, his message is still pure, and what he put in the bank of heaven while he was here, is undisputed.

[Edited 7/8/19 18:31pm]

SoulAlive said:

One of Prince’s male band members (Brown Mark or Dez) said that he felt uncomfortable singing along to “Jack U Off” during live performances....saying that Prince didn't really understand that some people would think that those lyrics are “gay”,lol.Prince played a lot of games like that...confusing listeners and creating controversy with provocative lyrics like that.

ya right, prince knew what he was doing, he took that upon himself and he did a good job, it was to stir shit up like any great artist, he did fine, but he wasn't so stupid as to not know what he was doing.

SoulAlive said:

One of Prince’s male band members (Brown Mark or Dez) said that he felt uncomfortable singing along to “Jack U Off” during live performances....saying that Prince didn't really understand that some people would think that those lyrics are “gay”,lol.Prince played a lot of games like that...confusing listeners and creating controversy with provocative lyrics like that.

well, he had to know that most folks consider jack u off to reference the male anatomy, when in reality, it is a gender neutral term, and directed towards a woman in the song.

PeteSilas said:

leadline said:

PeteSilas said:

you must be a woman to not know how hot lesbians are to men. They are the sexiest of the sexy. I love 'em, their so cool, i envy them.

.

I'm a huge fan of lesbians. I have all their movies.