"I think Prince never...".

Ok, but Prince is not here and we have not note about how Prince could have released those songs.

I appreciated that the songs were edited to have a more pleasant album to listen to. Prince has always done the same thing. I think it is useful now to bring out beautiful albums and not monolithic archives of tracks.

[Edited 6/10/19 4:41am]

Neversin said:

Kares said:

.
Thanks, Neversin.
A few additional things though: there are speed-issues too (again), especially with 'Sex Shooter' and 'Wouldn't You Love To Love Me'. The former is below, the latter is above normal pitch, but some others aren't 100% spot on either.
.
Also: just because some songs sound identical to the copies you or others had for ages, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are final versions as Prince would've released them on an album. They can still be incomplete, and can be raw mixes, and certainly many of the mixdown tapes in the vault were just raw mixes. Compare 'Make-Up' with the Vanity 6 version, for example, and it's clear the newly released version is lacking a ton of effects. 'Baby, You're A Trip' is also dry – don't get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE it and have already listened to it about 80x, but I don't think it is how P would've released it.
.
So even the songs that were left more or less as is, it is questionable whether they truly reflect Prince's intentions.

.

I know, I worded it wrong...
Logs and past info claim that in the example of "Make Up" the SFX were added after he already worked on the track with Vanity 6...
Same with "Love... Thy Will B Done" Martika did her background vocals before Prince did the guitar parts... So, like I said, this is not an end-all-be-all conclusion, but in the case of these 2 songs I'm 99.9% certain that these are the final versions...

And regarding speed issues; this release also suffers, like "Purple Rain" Deluxe ("We Can Fuck" having the most glaring ones) from the occasional "Tape slip"...

Neversin.

.

I understand that the effects were added during mixing for Vanity 6, for example. What I mean is that just because Prince left his own, initial version at the stage of a quick, raw mix, doesn't mean that he wouldn't have added effects to it had he decided to put it out on one of his own albums. We simply don't know, and the existence of the raw mixdown tape is no proof for his intentions.
I'd even go as far to say that in my opinion it is unlikely he would've released such a raw (and totally dry) mix.
.

[Edited 6/10/19 4:45am]

Interesting findings by Neversin and others.

How can we get these properly to the Estate and associated parties that are involved with releases like this?

udo said:

Interesting findings by Neversin and others.

How can we get these properly to the Estate and associated parties that are involved with releases like this?

.

Via LinkedIn? https://www.linkedin.com/...-0426422a/

Twitter? https://mobile.twitter.co...haelHoweLA

[Edited 6/10/19 5:27am]

olb99 said:

udo said:

Interesting findings by Neversin and others.

How can we get these properly to the Estate and associated parties that are involved with releases like this?

.

Via LinkedIn? https://www.linkedin.com/...-0426422a/

Twitter? https://mobile.twitter.co...haelHoweLA

[Edited 6/10/19 5:27am]

.

Are we sure that this Michael is the man that has any say, any influence over the processes that result in an album release?

He did not really say anything in whatever I read here from or about him.

So is he the right person?

The NME reveals what it has learned from talking to Michael Howe: https://www.nme.com/blogs...um-2506506

.

This includes:

.

Last year, Drake featured some unreleased Michael Jackson vocals on the song ‘Don’t Matter To Me’, taken from his album ‘Scorpion’, which divided opinion amongst MJ fans. Some questioned the authenticity of the vocals while others claimed the use of the vocals were unethical. Jackson’s nephew Austin Brown later hit out at the rapper for using the vocals without direct permission.

.
Asking Howe if any artists had reached out to use some of Prince’s previously unreleased vocals, and whether or not the estate would even consider it, he explained he couldn’t really talk about it because “I’ve had to sign a tremendous amount of confidentiality agreements.” However, he did admit some artists had put in requests. “It has been fewer than seven. It’s somewhere between three and seven, I would say,” he revealed. “I think that circumstances would have to be extraordinary to contemplate something like that. Again, I’m not the unilateral arbiter of whether or not that happens, but it has been discussed.”

.

Neversin said:

Listening to Originals had me thinking... where's Sheila? Every article has interviews with Jill, Appolonia, Susannah... but Sheila, whose songs make up a big chunk of the album, seems to be completely missing from the press around this.

Can't stop from listening to this song.

11. Gigolos Get Lonely Too The Time: What Time Is It? – 1982 1982

BartVanHemelen said:

The NME reveals what it has learned from talking to Michael Howe: https://www.nme.com/blogs...um-2506506

.

This includes:

.

Last year, Drake featured some unreleased Michael Jackson vocals on the song ‘Don’t Matter To Me’, taken from his album ‘Scorpion’, which divided opinion amongst MJ fans. Some questioned the authenticity of the vocals while others claimed the use of the vocals were unethical. Jackson’s nephew Austin Brown later hit out at the rapper for using the vocals without direct permission.

.
Asking Howe if any artists had reached out to use some of Prince’s previously unreleased vocals, and whether or not the estate would even consider it, he explained he couldn’t really talk about it because “I’ve had to sign a tremendous amount of confidentiality agreements.” However, he did admit some artists had put in requests. “It has been fewer than seven. It’s somewhere between three and seven, I would say,” he revealed. “I think that circumstances would have to be extraordinary to contemplate something like that. Again, I’m not the unilateral arbiter of whether or not that happens, but it has been discussed.”

.

The NME could have learned some of this by talking to us.

No offense to Mr . Howe but his take on the "somebody bring me a mirror" line is wrong. time members have explained countless times how that line came-up during a rehearsal, and it goes back to long before Jungle Love. this is another prime example of why they need people like Duane to help with those releases in terms of what was recorded whe, how and why.

Kares said:

Neversin said:

I know, I worded it wrong...
Logs and past info claim that in the example of "Make Up" the SFX were added after he already worked on the track with Vanity 6...
Same with "Love... Thy Will B Done" Martika did her background vocals before Prince did the guitar parts... So, like I said, this is not an end-all-be-all conclusion, but in the case of these 2 songs I'm 99.9% certain that these are the final versions...

And regarding speed issues; this release also suffers, like "Purple Rain" Deluxe ("We Can Fuck" having the most glaring ones) from the occasional "Tape slip"...

Neversin.

.

I understand that the effects were added during mixing for Vanity 6, for example. What I mean is that just because Prince left his own, initial version at the stage of a quick, raw mix, doesn't mean that he wouldn't have added effects to it had he decided to put it out on one of his own albums. We simply don't know, and the existence of the raw mixdown tape is no proof for his intentions.
I'd even go as far to say that in my opinion it is unlikely he would've released such a raw (and totally dry) mix.
.

[Edited 6/10/19 4:45am]

The songs on "Originals" weren't for release and had a clear purpose...
In the case of "Make Up" it's quite obvious that he only made a vocal guide for Susan Moonsie to mimic and left it as that, there was no purpose other than that for that particular track...

If Prince wanted to "finish" some of these tracks he would have; let's take "Nothing Compares 2 U" for example in 1990/1991 he picked up the version of the track from before Paul did his vocals then put in Clare's parts, left off Eric Leeds' sax and Susannahs vocals and added new things only to start from scratch and re-record the song entirely some months later...
Now what is considered Prince's final version of that song? The 1984 version before Eric Leeds did his part or after the sax part? Or the version from 1990/1991 where he worked on the initial 1984 track again? Or the 1991 re-recording?
I understand this is a tricky thing but this shit on "Originals" is bonkers and just lazily put together without any thought (I doubt the liner notes will have anything of worth on this issue...)
Adding tracks recorded for the version of which he already decided not to release it himself to Prince's version is just wrong...
Now we're just prone to an interpretation of whomever has access to the tracks instead of a proper document/time capsule of person who created it...
They should just leave everything as is and stop fucking around with them, the only person who had the right to play with these tracks isn't around anymore...

Neversin.

billymeade said:

Listening to Originals had me thinking... where's Sheila? Every article has interviews with Jill, Appolonia, Susannah... but Sheila, whose songs make up a big chunk of the album, seems to be completely missing from the press around this.

IDK about that but someone complained earlier that Sheila got author's credit on some of her songs on Tidal. Noon Rendezvous is copyrighted as a Prince/Sheila E composition (and probably is). Holly Rock and everything on Romance 1600 are copyrighted as pure Sheila compositions (save Love Bizarre which is Prince/Sheila), while research revealed that she, in fact, didn't write any of the material. Sheila herself inadvertedly explained why Prince was so generous in her Redbull Academy interview, where she says that she didn't pay attention to her exenses during the PR Tour and was suddenly presented a bill of 100 thousand dollars or so, and panicked. No wonder, then, than Prince gave her his royalties: she was in dire need of money in 1985.

Thanks Neversin for the breakdown!

Trying to think like just a casual listener (it's hard to do!) but the things that are glaring to me are those very weird, almost sampled screams on 100 MPH (were those in any other version?!) and the really bad quality of Wouldn't You Love To Love Me.

And yes, Love Thy Will Be Done does not belong on a set focusing on the early-to-mid 80s.

Prince Estate: if you're reading this, there are experts here in this Forum that you'd be wise to enlist on future projects!

Has anyone provided an explanation as to why the vocal track on 100 MPH is muddy in sound compared to the rest of tracks on it? I thought it was perhaps a vocal effect used during recording, but after repeated listens I'm not so sure.

fabriziovenerandi said:

"I think Prince never...".

Ok, but Prince is not here and we have not note about how Prince could have released those songs.

I appreciated that the songs were edited to have a more pleasant album to listen to. Prince has always done the same thing. I think it is useful now to bring out beautiful albums and not monolithic archives of tracks.

[Edited 6/10/19 4:41am]

I agree that whether Prince would have released a song in any state is irrelevant now. If he didn't release something, he didn't, and any "work in progress" version that was mixed on any given day is acceptable. However those archive releases should not be made to "make a more pleasant listening experience". I'm sorry, I know it's a business and the estate is there to capitalize on the catalogue but it's not about us, it's about Prince's legacy. Any such given "work in progress" version should be released as it was on Day X, not tinkered with, edited or overdubbed with elements recorded at a later date. It is vanity for anyone to believe that "this or that is the way Prince would have wanted it", knowing Prince and how unpredictable he was in his choices. What he released was "how he wanted it" and should be left alone as such, and what he didn't release should be released as such, i.e. as it was found because it is what he left. Anyone who is incapable of enjoying NC2U without the Family background vocals or the strings because it's not "polished" enough doesn't deserve to hear the song in the first place. And if they're going to do any such thing for the sake of making the songs more acceptable, they should at least release the original on the side (as with Michael's last posthumous album) and/or say exactly what they did and why.

djThunderfunk said:

Kares said:

.

"NPG Records, under exclusive licence to Warner Records Inc."

So the copyright holder is NPG, they just license the material to Warners for a certain time period.

[Edited 6/9/19 6:38am]

It won't say "Tidal" anywhere on the CD? Then I'm wrong.

NPG owns the masters, WB owns the distribution for a certain amount of time. Tidal only has 2 weeks of exclusive distribution, Tidal is not a label.

Kares said:

databank said:

Thx for posting this

As promised I will do my own investigation with the known logs and ask other people I know in order to build a strong case and provide as much info as possible, but this already is unvaluable info

.
Thanks, Neversin.
A few additional things though: there are speed-issues too (again), especially with 'Sex Shooter' and 'Wouldn't You Love To Love Me'. The former is below, the latter is above normal pitch, but some others aren't 100% spot on either.
.
Also: just because some songs sound identical to the copies you or others had for ages, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are final versions as Prince would've released them on an album. They can still be incomplete, and can be raw mixes, and certainly many of the mixdown tapes in the vault were just raw mixes. Compare 'Make-Up' with the Vanity 6 version, for example, and it's clear the newly released version is lacking a ton of effects. 'Baby, You're A Trip' is also dry – don't get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE it and have already listened to it about 80x, but I don't think it is how P would've released it.
.
So even the songs that were left more or less as is, it is questionable whether they truly reflect Prince's intentions.

.

Thanks for your expertise, the info you bring is also really useful

BTW I always meant to ask you: how do you know the pitch on P&AM83 is wrong? I mean I beleive you, I just wonder how you can tell without another version to ompare it with?

As for P's intentions, I think as I said above that it's not the point. We can only tell what his intentions were when he released a song in his lifetime. Everything in the vault is just "work in progress as it xas on Day X", and should be released as such. We know from Duane's book that at some point he'd ask for a cassette mixdown. that's version A. Then maybe he'd overdub later and ask for another mixdown. That's version B. And then maybe some time later..., etc.

Neversin said:

Kares said:

.

I understand that the effects were added during mixing for Vanity 6, for example. What I mean is that just because Prince left his own, initial version at the stage of a quick, raw mix, doesn't mean that he wouldn't have added effects to it had he decided to put it out on one of his own albums. We simply don't know, and the existence of the raw mixdown tape is no proof for his intentions.
I'd even go as far to say that in my opinion it is unlikely he would've released such a raw (and totally dry) mix.
.

[Edited 6/10/19 4:45am]

The songs on "Originals" weren't for release and had a clear purpose...
In the case of "Make Up" it's quite obvious that he only made a vocal guide for Susan Moonsie to mimic and left it as that, there was no purpose other than that for that particular track...

If Prince wanted to "finish" some of these tracks he would have; let's take "Nothing Compares 2 U" for example in 1990/1991 he picked up the version of the track from before Paul did his vocals then put in Clare's parts, left off Eric Leeds' sax and Susannahs vocals and added new things only to start from scratch and re-record the song entirely some months later...
Now what is considered Prince's final version of that song? The 1984 version before Eric Leeds did his part or after the sax part? Or the version from 1990/1991 where he worked on the initial 1984 track again? Or the 1991 re-recording?
I understand this is a tricky thing but this shit on "Originals" is bonkers and just lazily put together without any thought (I doubt the liner notes will have anything of worth on this issue...)
Adding tracks recorded for the version of which he already decided not to release it himself to Prince's version is just wrong...
Now we're just prone to an interpretation of whomever has access to the tracks instead of a proper document/time capsule of person who created it...
They should just leave everything as is and stop fucking around with them, the only person who had the right to play with these tracks isn't around anymore...

Neversin.

.
I hear you, and trust me, I'm not arguing with you. I agree with you on these things and even though I do enjoy listening to these tracks now, I am just as pissed/disappointed about his legacy being in the wrong hands and the apparent lack of knowledge, care and respect behind the posthumous releases.
.

My only point regarding 'Make-Up' was: in my opinion it is wrong to release a raw (dry) mix when we do have a fairly good idea of how he liked that song to sound as he already released it on 'Vanity 6'. So if it was left up to me I would've recreated the sound of the Vanity 6 mix, with those same effects, with Prince's vocals, instead of leaving it dry and lacking the same punch that the V6 version has. And of course I would've kept the drum intro too...

.
Of course it's far more complicated to decide what could've been a final version when there are multiple recordings of the same song, for a single-disc release such as 'Originals' I'd just go for the best or most significant, completed verision – but the key is clearly communicating the reasons behind such decisions, and of course eventually I'd put almost everything out on several box sets for the real collectors.
.

Neversin said:

Kares said:

.

I understand that the effects were added during mixing for Vanity 6, for example. What I mean is that just because Prince left his own, initial version at the stage of a quick, raw mix, doesn't mean that he wouldn't have added effects to it had he decided to put it out on one of his own albums. We simply don't know, and the existence of the raw mixdown tape is no proof for his intentions.
I'd even go as far to say that in my opinion it is unlikely he would've released such a raw (and totally dry) mix.
.

[Edited 6/10/19 4:45am]

The songs on "Originals" weren't for release and had a clear purpose...
In the case of "Make Up" it's quite obvious that he only made a vocal guide for Susan Moonsie to mimic and left it as that, there was no purpose other than that for that particular track...

If Prince wanted to "finish" some of these tracks he would have; let's take "Nothing Compares 2 U" for example in 1990/1991 he picked up the version of the track from before Paul did his vocals then put in Clare's parts, left off Eric Leeds' sax and Susannahs vocals and added new things only to start from scratch and re-record the song entirely some months later...
Now what is considered Prince's final version of that song? The 1984 version before Eric Leeds did his part or after the sax part? Or the version from 1990/1991 where he worked on the initial 1984 track again? Or the 1991 re-recording?
I understand this is a tricky thing but this shit on "Originals" is bonkers and just lazily put together without any thought (I doubt the liner notes will have anything of worth on this issue...)
Adding tracks recorded for the version of which he already decided not to release it himself to Prince's version is just wrong...
Now we're just prone to an interpretation of whomever has access to the tracks instead of a proper document/time capsule of person who created it...
They should just leave everything as is and stop fucking around with them, the only person who had the right to play with these tracks isn't around anymore...

Neversin.

Kares said:

Neversin said:

The songs on "Originals" weren't for release and had a clear purpose...
In the case of "Make Up" it's quite obvious that he only made a vocal guide for Susan Moonsie to mimic and left it as that, there was no purpose other than that for that particular track...

If Prince wanted to "finish" some of these tracks he would have; let's take "Nothing Compares 2 U" for example in 1990/1991 he picked up the version of the track from before Paul did his vocals then put in Clare's parts, left off Eric Leeds' sax and Susannahs vocals and added new things only to start from scratch and re-record the song entirely some months later...
Now what is considered Prince's final version of that song? The 1984 version before Eric Leeds did his part or after the sax part? Or the version from 1990/1991 where he worked on the initial 1984 track again? Or the 1991 re-recording?
I understand this is a tricky thing but this shit on "Originals" is bonkers and just lazily put together without any thought (I doubt the liner notes will have anything of worth on this issue...)
Adding tracks recorded for the version of which he already decided not to release it himself to Prince's version is just wrong...
Now we're just prone to an interpretation of whomever has access to the tracks instead of a proper document/time capsule of person who created it...
They should just leave everything as is and stop fucking around with them, the only person who had the right to play with these tracks isn't around anymore...

Neversin.

.
I hear you, and trust me, I'm not arguing with you. I agree with you on these things and even though I do enjoy listening to these tracks now, I am just as pissed/disappointed about his legacy being in the wrong hands and the apparent lack of knowledge, care and respect behind the posthumous releases.
.

My only point regarding 'Make-Up' was: in my opinion it is wrong to release a raw (dry) mix when we do have a fairly good idea of how he liked that song to sound as he already released it on 'Vanity 6'. So if it was left up to me I would've recreated the sound of the Vanity 6 mix, with those same effects, with Prince's vocals, instead of leaving it dry and lacking the same punch that the V6 version has. And of course I would've kept the drum intro too...

.
Of course it's far more complicated to decide what could've been a final version when there are multiple recordings of the same song, for a single-disc release such as 'Originals' I'd just go for the best or most significant, completed verision – but the key is clearly communicating the reasons behind such decisions, and of course eventually I'd put almost everything out on several box sets for the real collectors.
.

I beg to disagree. This is not about "how Prince liked the song" but about "how the song was on any given day" before it was finished. Prince wanted the song with effects and with Susan on lead vocals, that's the only way he wanted it as far as we can tell. But then if we are to release an earlier version with his vocals, we are not to mess with it by adding effects to try and make it sound like the V6 version. This is basically what they (poorly) attempted with NC2U: let's try and have the Family version as such only with P's vocals instead. Yeah, except then the mix was different on the first Family version, and anyway Prince scrapped it and turned it into the minimalist version that was released instead, so the Frankenstein version does not reflect what Prince wanted to be heard at any stage (and anyway what he wanted to be heard was the Family version as released, with Paul on lead vocals, not him).

The only case that could be hard to solve is the case where you have a multitrack but no cassette mixdown as reference at all, and this may be the case with some tracks. Then how can you be sure how Prince would have mixed it and whether he would have kept all the tracks or added effects and so on, and then it's up to everyone's guess. But Prince apparently had mixdowns made all the time so hopefully this won't happen to often.

Kares said:

Neversin said:

The songs on "Originals" weren't for release and had a clear purpose...
In the case of "Make Up" it's quite obvious that he only made a vocal guide for Susan Moonsie to mimic and left it as that, there was no purpose other than that for that particular track...

If Prince wanted to "finish" some of these tracks he would have; let's take "Nothing Compares 2 U" for example in 1990/1991 he picked up the version of the track from before Paul did his vocals then put in Clare's parts, left off Eric Leeds' sax and Susannahs vocals and added new things only to start from scratch and re-record the song entirely some months later...
Now what is considered Prince's final version of that song? The 1984 version before Eric Leeds did his part or after the sax part? Or the version from 1990/1991 where he worked on the initial 1984 track again? Or the 1991 re-recording?
I understand this is a tricky thing but this shit on "Originals" is bonkers and just lazily put together without any thought (I doubt the liner notes will have anything of worth on this issue...)
Adding tracks recorded for the version of which he already decided not to release it himself to Prince's version is just wrong...
Now we're just prone to an interpretation of whomever has access to the tracks instead of a proper document/time capsule of person who created it...
They should just leave everything as is and stop fucking around with them, the only person who had the right to play with these tracks isn't around anymore...

Neversin.

.
I hear you, and trust me, I'm not arguing with you. I agree with you on these things and even though I do enjoy listening to these tracks now, I am just as pissed/disappointed about his legacy being in the wrong hands and the apparent lack of knowledge, care and respect behind the posthumous releases.
.

My only point regarding 'Make-Up' was: in my opinion it is wrong to release a raw (dry) mix when we do have a fairly good idea of how he liked that song to sound as he already released it on 'Vanity 6'. So if it was left up to me I would've recreated the sound of the Vanity 6 mix, with those same effects, with Prince's vocals, instead of leaving it dry and lacking the same punch that the V6 version has. And of course I would've kept the drum intro too...

.
Of course it's far more complicated to decide what could've been a final version when there are multiple recordings of the same song, for a single-disc release such as 'Originals' I'd just go for the best or most significant, completed verision – but the key is clearly communicating the reasons behind such decisions, and of course eventually I'd put almost everything out on several box sets for the real collectors.
.

I honestly think they just released what they could find on a whim instead of (re)searching further, because I seriously doubt they listened closely to "Manic Monday" or else they would have realized that the tape they found was probably a dub Prince could listen to check if the background vocals were good enough before working further on the song the next day...
So they found that version and put it out as Prince's "Original" version, when the real original version with his background vocals is still in there in his vault...

I truly hope when they're done sorting everything they'll do proper chronological archival releases for fans with the help of fans...
But I dread that poorly curated and researched album like "Originals" is what we'll be getting for the rest of our days, and all because they allowed to let some incompentent WB lackey who volunteered(!) to do the job do a job that should be left to multiple "Prince" experts...
Considering the posthumous releases it's obvious the guy is in way over his head and just not capable enough to do the job properly...

Neversin.

Neversin said:

Kares said:

.
I hear you, and trust me, I'm not arguing with you. I agree with you on these things and even though I do enjoy listening to these tracks now, I am just as pissed/disappointed about his legacy being in the wrong hands and the apparent lack of knowledge, care and respect behind the posthumous releases.
.

My only point regarding 'Make-Up' was: in my opinion it is wrong to release a raw (dry) mix when we do have a fairly good idea of how he liked that song to sound as he already released it on 'Vanity 6'. So if it was left up to me I would've recreated the sound of the Vanity 6 mix, with those same effects, with Prince's vocals, instead of leaving it dry and lacking the same punch that the V6 version has. And of course I would've kept the drum intro too...

.
Of course it's far more complicated to decide what could've been a final version when there are multiple recordings of the same song, for a single-disc release such as 'Originals' I'd just go for the best or most significant, completed verision – but the key is clearly communicating the reasons behind such decisions, and of course eventually I'd put almost everything out on several box sets for the real collectors.
.

I honestly think they just released what they could find on a whim instead of (re)searching further, because I seriously doubt they listened closely to "Manic Monday" or else they would have realized that the tape they found was probably a dub Prince could listen to check if the background vocals were good enough before working further on the song the next day...
So they found that version and put it out as Prince's "Original" version, when the real original version with his background vocals is still in there in his vault...

I truly hope when they're done sorting everything they'll do proper chronological archival releases for fans with the help of fans...
But I dread that poorly curated and researched album like "Originals" is what we'll be getting for the rest of our days, and all because they allowed to let some incompentent WB lackey who volunteered(!) to do the job do a job that should be left to multiple "Prince" experts...
Considering the posthumous releases it's obvious the guy is in way over his head and just not capable enough to do the job properly...

Neversin.

That, or they purposedly did a Frenkenstein mix because they thought it was more radio-friendly with female background vocals

databank said:

Kares said:

.
Thanks, Neversin.
A few additional things though: there are speed-issues too (again), especially with 'Sex Shooter' and 'Wouldn't You Love To Love Me'. The former is below, the latter is above normal pitch, but some others aren't 100% spot on either.

.

Thanks for your expertise, the info you bring is also really useful

BTW I always meant to ask you: how do you know the pitch on P&AM83 is wrong? I mean I beleive you, I just wonder how you can tell without another version to ompare it with?

.

(Thanks for all you're brining to the table too!)
.
Just to be precise, it's both the pitch and tempo we're talking about as they are naturally linked (and can only be independently manipulated in the digital domain). In short: I can hear it. In the case of P&AM83 the difference is about 16-18 cents (if I remember correctly, I can't check it now) and that is quite noticeable, especially if you're listening to it right after some other piece of music that's in the correct key, or if you try to play along on a (well tuned or digital) piano. You don't have to have the same music in the right key as a reference to compare it to, practically all modern (Western) music uses the same 12 notes and most musicians and studios tune to the same A=440Hz reference. Prince did too, as almost everything he released proves.
.
I know some musicians who prefer to tune to 442 or 443 or 436 or 432 and other references, but those are exceptions and can be a pain to work with, especially when two pianists work in the same studio and one day the piano has to be tuned to 442 and the next day it has to be retuned for the other guy to 443 and the next day back to 440 for someone else etc.... These are real examples.
.
There's no information that I'm aware of that would claim that Prince had his piano tuned to 445 on the day he recorded P&AM so I think we can safely rule that out.
.

jaawwnn said:

Neversin said:

11. Gigolo's Get Lonely Too - Faded out unnecessarily, which could have been an epic release if they let it go for the full 10+ minutes...

GODDAM.

GODDAM x 2.

I've got that on repeat, I'd love the 10 min version..

[Edited 6/10/19 7:39am]

Kares said:

databank said:

Thanks for your expertise, the info you bring is also really useful

BTW I always meant to ask you: how do you know the pitch on P&AM83 is wrong? I mean I beleive you, I just wonder how you can tell without another version to ompare it with?

.

(Thanks for all you're brining to the table too!)
.
Just to be precise, it's both the pitch and tempo we're talking about as they are naturally linked (and can only be independently manipulated in the digital domain). In short: I can hear it. In the case of P&AM83 the difference is about 16-18 cents (if I remember correctly, I can't check it now) and that is quite noticeable, especially if you're listening to it right after some other piece of music that's in the correct key, or if you try to play along on a (well tuned or digital) piano. You don't have to have the same music in the right key as a reference to compare it to, practically all modern (Western) music uses the same 12 notes and most musicians and studios tune to the same A=440Hz reference. Prince did too, as almost everything he released proves.
.
I know some musicians who prefer to tune to 442 or 443 or 436 or 432 and other references, but those are exceptions and can be a pain to work with, especially when two pianists work in the same studio and one day the piano has to be tuned to 442 and the next day it has to be retuned for the other guy to 443 and the next day back to 440 for someone else etc.... These are real examples.
.
There's no information that I'm aware of that would claim that Prince had his piano tuned to 445 on the day he recorded P&AM so I think we can safely rule that out.
.

Cool, thanks for explaining

When I heard "Wouldn't You Love To Love Me", my jaw hit the floor. I wasn't expecting that good "Dirty Mind" energy out of that song!

Really, really good collection, and what I want to see going forward from Prince releases. The world should really know why he was such a big deal! It's more than just Purple Rain. In the context of "here's what he did for other people you may know", this is HUGE. those in charge of curating these tracks did a really, really good job in my opinion.

databank said:

Kares said:

.
I hear you, and trust me, I'm not arguing with you. I agree with you on these things and even though I do enjoy listening to these tracks now, I am just as pissed/disappointed about his legacy being in the wrong hands and the apparent lack of knowledge, care and respect behind the posthumous releases.
.

My only point regarding 'Make-Up' was: in my opinion it is wrong to release a raw (dry) mix when we do have a fairly good idea of how he liked that song to sound as he already released it on 'Vanity 6'. So if it was left up to me I would've recreated the sound of the Vanity 6 mix, with those same effects, with Prince's vocals, instead of leaving it dry and lacking the same punch that the V6 version has. And of course I would've kept the drum intro too...

.
Of course it's far more complicated to decide what could've been a final version when there are multiple recordings of the same song, for a single-disc release such as 'Originals' I'd just go for the best or most significant, completed verision – but the key is clearly communicating the reasons behind such decisions, and of course eventually I'd put almost everything out on several box sets for the real collectors.
.

I beg to disagree. This is not about "how Prince liked the song" but about "how the song was on any given day" before it was finished. Prince wanted the song with effects and with Susan on lead vocals, that's the only way he wanted it as far as we can tell. But then if we are to release an earlier version with his vocals, we are not to mess with it by adding effects to try and make it sound like the V6 version. This is basically what they (poorly) attempted with NC2U: let's try and have the Family version as such only with P's vocals instead. Yeah, except then the mix was different on the first Family version, and anyway Prince scrapped it and turned it into the minimalist version that was released instead, so the Frankenstein version does not reflect what Prince wanted to be heard at any stage (and anyway what he wanted to be heard was the Family version as released, with Paul on lead vocals, not him).

The only case that could be hard to solve is the case where you have a multitrack but no cassette mixdown as reference at all, and this may be the case with some tracks. Then how can you be sure how Prince would have mixed it and whether he would have kept all the tracks or added effects and so on, and then it's up to everyone's guess. But Prince apparently had mixdowns made all the time so hopefully this won't happen to often.

.

It's not the same case as of NC2U. That was unethical. But when we have a song such as 'Make-Up', which has been released, only with female vocals, and we have another tape of EXACTLY the same song, only with Prince's vocals, I would indeed have recreated the V6 mix for the Prince vocal version too. Because in my opinion it is fairly safe to say that that is the sound / mix Prince wanted for that song, regardless of which vocal tracks he'd release.
In the pop music world, releasing a completely dry mix is almost unheard of, or at least it's very, VERY rarely ever done. And when we do have a reference mix OF THE SAME recording (albeit with a different vocal track), I don't think it's unethical to match that.
.
I'd be very interested to hear what Peggy M or Susan R would say on this but I have a feeling they would agree with me.
.
What I certainly don't agree with, and that's where I'm with both you and Neversin, is mixing up different sessions, making edits, etc – and on top of all this: not being clear about all this.
.

Kares said:

databank said:

I beg to disagree. This is not about "how Prince liked the song" but about "how the song was on any given day" before it was finished. Prince wanted the song with effects and with Susan on lead vocals, that's the only way he wanted it as far as we can tell. But then if we are to release an earlier version with his vocals, we are not to mess with it by adding effects to try and make it sound like the V6 version. This is basically what they (poorly) attempted with NC2U: let's try and have the Family version as such only with P's vocals instead. Yeah, except then the mix was different on the first Family version, and anyway Prince scrapped it and turned it into the minimalist version that was released instead, so the Frankenstein version does not reflect what Prince wanted to be heard at any stage (and anyway what he wanted to be heard was the Family version as released, with Paul on lead vocals, not him).

The only case that could be hard to solve is the case where you have a multitrack but no cassette mixdown as reference at all, and this may be the case with some tracks. Then how can you be sure how Prince would have mixed it and whether he would have kept all the tracks or added effects and so on, and then it's up to everyone's guess. But Prince apparently had mixdowns made all the time so hopefully this won't happen to often.

.

It's not the same case as of NC2U. That was unethical. But when we have a song such as 'Make-Up', which has been released, only with female vocals, and we have another tape of EXACTLY the same song, only with Prince's vocals, I would indeed have recreated the V6 mix for the Prince vocal version too. Because in my opinion it is fairly safe to say that that is the sound / mix Prince wanted for that song, regardless of which vocal tracks he'd release.
In the pop music world, releasing a completely dry mix is almost unheard of, or at least it's very, VERY rarely ever done. And when we do have a reference mix OF THE SAME recording (albeit with a different vocal track), I don't think it's unethical to match that.
.
I'd be very interested to hear what Peggy M or Susan R would say on this but I have a feeling they would agree with me.
.
What I certainly don't agree with, and that's where I'm with both you and Neversin, is mixing up different sessions, making edits, etc – and on top of all this: not being clear about all this.
.

Fair enough. What I meant is that is there exists a reference mixdown on cassette from that Prince version (and it probably exists), and it does not have the effects, then I don't believe it makes sense to have them. On that particular day, he had not.

I've been thoroughly enjoying this compilation!

A few songs are epic and a couple of others will take a little while longer for me to love.

I appreciate many people are 'concerned' these are not final versions, but for me, as long as these are Prince's genuine work-in-progress versions then that certainly earns the title 'Originals'. Maybe this is better than to have Prince's final 'polished' versions as this does show these songs in their 'original' form as they develop.

I'm not sure why Manic Monday is refered to as "Frankenstein''. If the Estate had done this, then that would be very wrong. If Prince did this while experimenting with the track then I accept this as Prince's work.

Eitherway, I feel I have no choice but to except what is on Originals in the form it is in as I have no influence over this otherwise - so I'll just have to be happy with how it is.

databank said:

Kares said:

.

It's not the same case as of NC2U. That was unethical. But when we have a song such as 'Make-Up', which has been released, only with female vocals, and we have another tape of EXACTLY the same song, only with Prince's vocals, I would indeed have recreated the V6 mix for the Prince vocal version too. Because in my opinion it is fairly safe to say that that is the sound / mix Prince wanted for that song, regardless of which vocal tracks he'd release.
In the pop music world, releasing a completely dry mix is almost unheard of, or at least it's very, VERY rarely ever done. And when we do have a reference mix OF THE SAME recording (albeit with a different vocal track), I don't think it's unethical to match that.
.
I'd be very interested to hear what Peggy M or Susan R would say on this but I have a feeling they would agree with me.
.
What I certainly don't agree with, and that's where I'm with both you and Neversin, is mixing up different sessions, making edits, etc – and on top of all this: not being clear about all this.
.

Fair enough. What I meant is that is there exists a reference mixdown on cassette from that Prince version (and it probably exists), and it does not have the effects, then I don't believe it makes sense to have them. On that particular day, he had not.

.
But we know he had raw mixes made all the time, I can imagine that often the tapes he gave to band members were raw mixes too as generally it is easier to hear the different instrument parts on a dry mix than it is after the effects have been applied. So in my view the existence of a raw mixdown is in no way proof for him preferring that dry mix even just on that particular day, it's simply just how he worked, he worked incredibly fast and often wanted to have a copy immediately after finishing tracking, therefore he didn't want to wait around until a proper mix (with effects) is finished.

.