olb99 said:

Kares said:

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https://www.reddit.com/r/PRINCE/comments/bxmc5x/interview_with_michael_howe_vault_archivist_on/
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1.: An absolute, total lack of concept and long-term release plan, instead he's improvising based on feedback.
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2.: No thoroughly researched, systematic cataloguing of every single recording (if there would be one, he'd immediately see how outrageously he's underestimating the amount of treasures they're sitting on by saying "we have enough material to make another volume". They have enough material to make 9 more volumes of 'Originals' – with deluxe versions of each, containing every version of every track, instead of the edits and ignorant mixes they made.)
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3.: Apparent lack of a deep technical understanding of studio engineering.
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4.: Serious lack of knowledge regarding Prince's circulating outtakes and of how the collectors' community operates and how the huge Prince-bootleg market works. ("I was surprised to see things circulating in very good quality. I do not know how it is done.").
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...and I could go on... And this is only regarding the future releases. Prince's legacy, however, is far more than the music, and we haven't even started talking about preserving that.
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Don't you think we should write him a letter or something? What's the most constructive thing we could/should do?

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I don't know if unsolicited help/advice would be appreciated, but if we do something, it should probably be done as a concerted effort.

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I don't want to attack Michael Howe in any way. (Yes, I know I've just used some strong expressions in my previous post, but still...) He's obviously in a very difficult and incredibly demanding position. He's not sitting on the top of the entire organisation as a sole leader. The Estate itself is still a mess and it's currently still managed by a bank. So I'm sure the decision-making procedures are rather complex and anyone in his position would have to face the difficulty of struggling with people who know very little about music or the music industry – and an even bigger difficulty is having to work with people who lack a clear vision for what direction the Estate should take in order to fulfill its primary goals of keeping Prince's legacy alive and generating several constant, healthy income streams.
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I do have detailed, long-term plans I've been thinking and working on for quite some time now since Prince passed, but I'm still unsure if I should contact the heirs and others in charge... But sooner or later something needs to be done and I'm passionate about sharing Prince's gift and legacy with the world. I'm just not sure yet if it's the right time to try to intervene at this stage.
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Kares said:

...and I could go on... And this is only regarding the future releases. Prince's legacy, however, is far more than the music, and we haven't even started talking about preserving that.

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I'd say: IMPEACH the man.

(no, I am not a fan of the democrats or ussa politics in general)

In the Prince case this man does not do the work he is supposed to do.

From that reddit Mahciel interview, I see this:

You have encountered the same problem of sound with other titles of "Originals"?

This song was really different. There have been cases where the only tape available with the final version we had was on tape. And the tape is not the ideal source for the mastering process. So we had to rework with the original tracks to mix them so as to reproduce the song identical to what was on this tape. It allows to have the same version of this song which was on this support but with an optimal sound quality.

What is the man actually saying here?

A tape which is on tape which is not ideal?

This could suggest that most other 'tapes' are already in the digital realm on a NAS/SAN somewhere.

Or what does Michael imply here?

udo said:

From that reddit Mahciel interview, I see this:

You have encountered the same problem of sound with other titles of "Originals"?

This song was really different. There have been cases where the only tape available with the final version we had was on tape. And the tape is not the ideal source for the mastering process. So we had to rework with the original tracks to mix them so as to reproduce the song identical to what was on this tape. It allows to have the same version of this song which was on this support but with an optimal sound quality.

What is the man actually saying here?

A tape which is on tape which is not ideal?

This could suggest that most other 'tapes' are already in the digital realm on a NAS/SAN somewhere.

Or what does Michael imply here?

.

He's talking about cases where what they consider the "final version" was only on cassette tape, not on professional (1/4" or 1/2") tape. I guess the word "cassette" was lost in translation or during transcribing.

Could a team of knowledgable Prince fans have 'talk'/discussion with this Michael Howe person?

This could help clear up the issues with the ways things appear to be going right now.

udo said:

Could a team of knowledgable Prince fans have 'talk'/discussion with this Michael Howe person?

This could help clear up the issues with the ways things appear to be going right now.

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He's bound by NDAs so wouldn't be able to answer almost any of the important questions, so even if he'd agree to it, it couldn't be a real discussion, as in many cases the most he'd be able to react is "thank you for your input".

sro100 said:

Doozer said:

udo said: For me it’s the ending of the song, which includes Prince’s vocals the way Jill’s version ends - ...Idon’tcareyou’reatripandahalf Iwantchaeveryday HEY!

That takes it to a new level. But quality and other subtle changes also. Now it sounds like a song you could play for anyone as one of Prince's all-time best.

imagine it flowing into "mia bocca" though

Kares said:

A Whole Bunch of Technical Explanation about Speed/Pitch Issues

Thanks a lot--I've always found accounts of studio trickery from analog tape days really interesting, but I hadn't really understood how many opportunities there were for unintended complication and error.

IstenSzek said:

sro100 said:

That takes it to a new level. But quality and other subtle changes also. Now it sounds like a song you could play for anyone as one of Prince's all-time best.

imagine it flowing into "mia bocca" though

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That ending with Prince's vocals is amazing. I don't know whether I'm in the minority here, as I know a lot of people think Jill oversings, but I think she did a really, really good job with that part (and with the whole album, actually - there, I said it).

olb99 said:

IstenSzek said:

imagine it flowing into "mia bocca" though

.

That ending with Prince's vocals is amazing. I don't know whether I'm in the minority here, as I know a lot of people think Jill oversings, but I think she did a really, really good job with that part (and with the whole album, actually - there, I said it).

.

I'm with you. Jill's great too, absolutely, but Prince's version is magnificent. Sublime. Can hardly find the words for it. Those delicate little guitar licks, that Hammond, that bass, that whole church vibe – and then Prince's crazyamazing vocals... I've just listened to it another 10x while driving and I'm totally in awe.

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EddieC said:

Kares said:

Thanks a lot--I've always found accounts of studio trickery from analog tape days really interesting, but I hadn't really understood how many opportunities there were for unintended complication and error.

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Thank you, glad you found it interesting. I could add dozens of other potential issues but I don't want to go way off-topic again (as I tend to do that all the time anyway... )

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Se7en said:

Thanks Neversin for the breakdown!

Trying to think like just a casual listener (it's hard to do!) but the things that are glaring to me are those very weird, almost sampled screams on 100 MPH (were those in any other version?!) and the really bad quality of Wouldn't You Love To Love Me.

And yes, Love Thy Will Be Done does not belong on a set focusing on the early-to-mid 80s.

Prince Estate: if you're reading this, there are experts here in this Forum that you'd be wise to enlist on future projects!

I've been waiting YEARS for a crystal clear version of the Love Thy Will B Done. Count me in as "happy"

olb99 said:

IstenSzek said:

imagine it flowing into "mia bocca" though

.

That ending with Prince's vocals is amazing. I don't know whether I'm in the minority here, as I know a lot of people think Jill oversings, but I think she did a really, really good job with that part (and with the whole album, actually - there, I said it).

Jill's vocals are gorgeous throughout the album. IDK what people mean by "oversings" but AFAIK her album is one of the most cherished side projects, so I think most fans are very happy with her performance

Kares said:

olb99 said:

.

That ending with Prince's vocals is amazing. I don't know whether I'm in the minority here, as I know a lot of people think Jill oversings, but I think she did a really, really good job with that part (and with the whole album, actually - there, I said it).

.

I'm with you. Jill's great too, absolutely, but Prince's version is magnificent. Sublime. Can hardly find the words for it. Those delicate little guitar licks, that Hammond, that bass, that whole church vibe – and then Prince's crazyamazing vocals... I've just listened to it another 10x while driving and I'm totally in awe.

.

Same here, only for this track "Originals" is a must have, incredible.

I'm a musician myself and i record, mix and do a lot of mastering but only using digital so thanx for this interesting discussion about analog tapes and pitch problems.

I try to play along some bootleg rehearsals for example and i encounter this pitch problem often.

JAYJOE said:

In A Large Room With No Light

The day they release this - I think I'll be as giddy as a school girl.

olb99 said:

Kares said:

.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PRINCE/comments/bxmc5x/interview_with_michael_howe_vault_archivist_on/
.

1.: An absolute, total lack of concept and long-term release plan, instead he's improvising based on feedback.
.

2.: No thoroughly researched, systematic cataloguing of every single recording (if there would be one, he'd immediately see how outrageously he's underestimating the amount of treasures they're sitting on by saying "we have enough material to make another volume". They have enough material to make 9 more volumes of 'Originals' – with deluxe versions of each, containing every version of every track, instead of the edits and ignorant mixes they made.)
.
3.: Apparent lack of a deep technical understanding of studio engineering.
.
4.: Serious lack of knowledge regarding Prince's circulating outtakes and of how the collectors' community operates and how the huge Prince-bootleg market works. ("I was surprised to see things circulating in very good quality. I do not know how it is done.").
.
...and I could go on... And this is only regarding the future releases. Prince's legacy, however, is far more than the music, and we haven't even started talking about preserving that.
.

.

Don't you think we should write him a letter or something? What's the most constructive thing we could/should do?

.

I don't know if unsolicited help/advice would be appreciated, but if we do something, it should probably be done as a concerted effort.

Of course contacting Mr. Howe would be great, except I don't have his email and I doubt the person reading the Estate's site email will forward a mail to him. Maybe if there were hundreds of mails of complaints to the Estate and WB altogether, but I don't see it happening. And yes to what Kares said, his job is not easy, he has to answer to higher powers, with great powers come great responsibilities and so on... We may have better knowledge of P's works, but if any of us were in charge of the Vault and releases, we would probably feel very humble and question each decision we make. But clearly when you're someone in that sort of position and responsibilities, unsollicited comments and suggestions by ordinary citizens are neither welcome nor paid attention to. It's not Mr. Howe specifically, it's anyone with his kind of job.

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Our best hope is the likes of Supermegadeluxe and other music sites/mags, they're sort of the inbetweeners between us mere mortals and the execs. I would write to them now but I think that before throwing accusations outside of the org, which is still sort of a private garden for hardcore fans, we need to have a case as solid as the case of NC2U for each track we claim has been messed with. I also haven't checked yet what they say on the SteveHoffman board, sometimes interesting things are said there about those reissues.

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I will study the available data closely and contact the people I know who may know something (I have started sending some emails). I suggest anyone here who has contact with any artist or engineer involved or any serious collector or "in the know" person does the same. Altogether we are virtually connected to the whole purple web and the more we crossreference the better.

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Oh, and I just wanted to say because both in the thread and privately, many orgers told me they enjoyed the record and were not sure about the negativity: I am of 2 minds for obvious reasons about it, but I enjoy it, too. Nothing should stop anyone from enjoying it. But some of us just need to get to the bottom of it and figure out what's entirely genuine and what may have been "tinkered" with, because some of us don't want any such thing to happen again.

Kares said:

in many cases the most he'd be able to react is "thank you for your input".

.

Sure, but then at least we have undeniably pointed out the flaws in his work, pointed out the directions that the work should be going and pointed out the speed at which things should be going.

This fixes the need for him to go through 'all over the org' and gives him the info in a condensed way.

It can all be done in 30 minutes or less as questions are an NDA-issue, so it will be a one way statement mostly.

I am astounded at the arrogance on display here. Wait - no, I'm not.

[Edited 6/11/19 8:01am]

udo said:

Kares said:

in many cases the most he'd be able to react is "thank you for your input".

.

Sure, but then at least we have undeniably pointed out the flaws in his work, pointed out the directions that the work should be going and pointed out the speed at which things should be going.

This fixes the need for him to go through 'all over the org' and gives him the info in a condensed way.

It can all be done in 30 minutes or less as questions are an NDA-issue, so it will be a one way statement mostly.

Read Bart's update from an interview in "De Morgen" with Howe and you'll see that any useful info from people who followed and researched Prince and his music will be consciously neglected...
I won't waste my time trying to talk sense into these simpletons...
These are the kind of people handling Prince's music folks...
The only mildly decent idea from them is the most obvious one that even a 5 year old could come up with: a new NPGMC like site...

https://prince.org/msg/7/...?&pg=2

Neversin.

Genesia said:

I am astounded at the arrogance on display here. Wait - no, I'm not.

[Edited 6/11/19 8:01am]

Crazy isn't it?

goosepumble said:

JAYJOE said:

In A Large Room With No Light

The day they release this - I think I'll be as giddy as a school girl.

Jungle Love was sort of a holy grail that we never thought to see the light of. So, I count about 1-2 years until IALRWNL.

databank said:

olb99 said:

.

That ending with Prince's vocals is amazing. I don't know whether I'm in the minority here, as I know a lot of people think Jill oversings, but I think she did a really, really good job with that part (and with the whole album, actually - there, I said it).

Jill's vocals are gorgeous throughout the album. IDK what people mean by "oversings" but AFAIK her album is one of the most cherished side projects, so I think most fans are very happy with her performance

She has a very strong, forceful way of singing that seems to annoy some people. I am not one of them, I think she's possibly the best singer he ever worked with.

Kares said:

EmmaMcG said:

Loefie said: I am also going to do that. I had to hear it first though to make sure it was worth buying.

.

It is definitely worth buying.
I didn't say this about Purple Rain Deluxe, as I found the fact that they used cassette copies for sourcing such masterpieces as 'Love And Sex' and 'Computer Blue' insulting. But 'Originals' (despite its issues) is a must have. Some of Prince's performances are quite breathtaking and most of the songs sound great too.

Hi, Kares and all!

This is my first post on this forum, and sorry for responding to a bit old topic.

I don't know if someone mentioned this earlier, but I realized that when I playback PR deluxe on Tidal master streaming, MQA encoding parameters on some songs are different from others.

Most of the songs are encoded as ORIGINALSAMPLERATE:192000, but some songs are encoded as ORIGINALSAMPLERATE:44100, those are

Love And Sex

Computer Blue ("Hallway Speech" Version)

Our Destiny/Roadhouse Garden

Velvet Kitty Cat

Katrina's Paper Dolls

Father's Song

When Doves Cry (7" Single Edit)

It seems like that the difference between MQA encoding parameters may be based on the difference of the source media. Are the titles above the same as what you recognize as cassette-sourced?

Genesia said:

I am astounded at the arrogance on display here. Wait - no, I'm not.

[Edited 6/11/19 8:01am]

Arrogance, entitlement, self-delusion - the list goes on and on.

TakEpri said:

Kares said:

.

It is definitely worth buying.
I didn't say this about Purple Rain Deluxe, as I found the fact that they used cassette copies for sourcing such masterpieces as 'Love And Sex' and 'Computer Blue' insulting. But 'Originals' (despite its issues) is a must have. Some of Prince's performances are quite breathtaking and most of the songs sound great too.

Hi, Kares and all!

This is my first post on this forum, and sorry for responding to a bit old topic.

I don't know if someone mentioned this earlier, but I realized that when I playback PR deluxe on Tidal master streaming, MQA encoding parameters on some songs are different from others.

Most of the songs are encoded as ORIGINALSAMPLERATE:192000, but some songs are encoded as ORIGINALSAMPLERATE:44100, those are

Love And Sex

Computer Blue ("Hallway Speech" Version)

Our Destiny/Roadhouse Garden

Velvet Kitty Cat

Katrina's Paper Dolls

Father's Song

When Doves Cry (7" Single Edit)

It seems like that the difference between MQA encoding parameters may be based on the difference of the source media. Are the titles above the same as what you recognize as cassette-sourced?

.
Hi and welcome
.

I believe the entire Disc 2 of Purple Rain Deluxe was sourced from cassettes. 'When Doves Cry (7" Single Edit' should not have been, so I'm not sure why that is different.
.
MQA is a tricky format, I'm not a fan of it tbh, as its quality is based on the processing capabilities of the device playing it, therefore the same file can play in higher quality on an MQA-equipped amplifier than on a phone, for example. And while MQA is hi-definition (24bit / 192kHz), it uses lossy compression. In my view it is not as good as the quality Qobuz offers.
.
So while of course it would've been possible to release the cassette-sourced outtakes in 24bit/192kHz too, apparently Warners decided that there's no point as they are poor quality anyway and I agree with them.
.

Prince's Friend review


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9-XN4eMCl0&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1a4Kp5Jee-Fz3BZ9WD0GgsPFAx_WzXvELbgJci1dvfRymoVwr9d_Jf7nY

Kares said:

TakEpri said:

Hi, Kares and all!

This is my first post on this forum, and sorry for responding to a bit old topic.

I don't know if someone mentioned this earlier, but I realized that when I playback PR deluxe on Tidal master streaming, MQA encoding parameters on some songs are different from others.

Most of the songs are encoded as ORIGINALSAMPLERATE:192000, but some songs are encoded as ORIGINALSAMPLERATE:44100, those are

Love And Sex

Computer Blue ("Hallway Speech" Version)

Our Destiny/Roadhouse Garden

Velvet Kitty Cat

Katrina's Paper Dolls

Father's Song

When Doves Cry (7" Single Edit)

It seems like that the difference between MQA encoding parameters may be based on the difference of the source media. Are the titles above the same as what you recognize as cassette-sourced?

.
Hi and welcome
.

I believe the entire Disc 2 of Purple Rain Deluxe was sourced from cassettes. 'When Doves Cry (7" Single Edit' should not have been, so I'm not sure why that is different.
.
MQA is a tricky format, I'm not a fan of it tbh, as its quality is based on the processing capabilities of the device playing it, therefore the same file can play in higher quality on an MQA-equipped amplifier than on a phone, for example. And while MQA is hi-definition (24bit / 192kHz), it uses lossy compression. In my view it is not as good as the quality Qobuz offers.
.
So while of course it would've been possible to release the cassette-sourced outtakes in 24bit/192kHz too, apparently Warners decided that there's no point as they are poor quality anyway and I agree with them.
.

This is the case with the downloads available on HD Tracks for the PR Deluxe:

https://www.hdtracks.com/...ge-search1

[Edited 6/11/19 12:21pm]

Review in Slate: https://slate.com/culture...s-2-u.html

bfunk said:

Kares said:

.
Hi and welcome
.

I believe the entire Disc 2 of Purple Rain Deluxe was sourced from cassettes. 'When Doves Cry (7" Single Edit' should not have been, so I'm not sure why that is different.
.
MQA is a tricky format, I'm not a fan of it tbh, as its quality is based on the processing capabilities of the device playing it, therefore the same file can play in higher quality on an MQA-equipped amplifier than on a phone, for example. And while MQA is hi-definition (24bit / 192kHz), it uses lossy compression. In my view it is not as good as the quality Qobuz offers.
.
So while of course it would've been possible to release the cassette-sourced outtakes in 24bit/192kHz too, apparently Warners decided that there's no point as they are poor quality anyway and I agree with them.
.

This is the case with the downloads available on HD Tracks for the PR Deluxe:

https://www.hdtracks.com/...ge-search1

[Edited 6/11/19 12:21pm]

.

I see.
Well, that is just carelessness. There's no reason for such a mess, regardless of the source tape. If they've received the Purple Rain album remaster in 24/96 from Prince, then they could've just used that resolution for discs 2 and 3 too, for the sake of simplicity.

.

.