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Forums > Prince: Music and More > Version of Rave with an 8 seconds silent segue: a new mystery for you to help me solve :)
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Reply #30 posted 02/25/19 7:24am

databank

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peedub said:

Maybe you've got hold of a vinyl rip? The additional time being made up of lead in/out grooves?

No it can't be that because King Sausage and that other orger (DevotedPuppy) clearly said it was a CD.

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Reply #31 posted 02/25/19 7:29am

databank

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thievesinthetemple said:

My CD copy:

TGRES: 5:40

Segue: 8 seconds

Bought at a Circuit City in Florida on the day it came out.

Ha!

OK now we're getting somewhere! Thx hug

Now the pre-gap post-gap theory could still explain it because Devoted Puppy mysteriously stated it was 8 seconds when he put it into his computer (but IDK if it means it was only in the computer or if he only played it in a computer), and IDK what King Sausage used to play it.

Yet the rip of my own CD (French pressing, purchased on day of release) is 4 seconds and does not have the other differences (silence at end of TGRES and problem with secong segue track overlapping previous track), and the pre-gap theory would not explain the TGRES and Segue #2 differences, so I don't think it's that, but to make sure of it, could you please confirm that TGRES and Segue #1 are that length on a regular CD player, and not just on your PC? And maybe check whether the second Segue actually starts art the end of the previous track?

Thx again for your help hug

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Reply #32 posted 02/25/19 7:30am

databank

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luvsexy4all said:

imagine regular people reading this thread and think we R the most insane fans.....

lol

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Reply #33 posted 02/25/19 7:34am

databank

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billymeade said:

Could it just be the 2-sec pre- and post-gaps?

That could be the case but yet would not explain TGRES and the second Segue, but nevertheless it's worth checking whether there's a difference between playing it on a CD player or a PC. Let's see what Thieveinthetemple says.

If other people have the CD, please check it out.

Even if Thieveinthetemple confirms that his CD is indeed different even on a CD player, it still means that he and King Sausage have a different version than Musicman, who has the 4 seconds segue on his, while all three of them purchased it in the USA at the time of release, which would discard the possibility of a change between US first print and second print, making it even more mysterious.

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Reply #34 posted 02/25/19 7:40am

databank

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olb99 said:

billymeade said:

Could it just be the 2-sec pre- and post-gaps?

I was thinking something along those lines as well.

See my two replies above. Let's see what Thieveinthetemple tell us.

.

BTW, Princevault is mentioning the following about the silent segue: "Miles Davis is credited, but it is not known if this was simply intended as a tribute to him, or if, in fact, the silence was recorded while [1] was present, placing the recording between 1987 and 1990."

.

I once wrote to them that the 4-second silence is pure digital silence (i.e. only null samples), so, no, it was not "recorded" in the presence of anybody. It was "artificially" generated.


A pity they didn't correct the entry. Might be they forgot or they weren't sure your info was accurate. Did you explain your reasoning, like how you could say for sure it wasn't "real" silence? I believe sometimes they tend to ignore things that aren't backed by some sort of proof.

.

Anyway, my copy has a 4-second silent segue. Bought on Nov. 8, 1999 in Switzerland (City Disc).

OK, thx for that. It appears so far that only US CD's may have this 8 seconds segue. Let's see if anyone else from Europe has it. But how come it was available in Switzerland on the 8th when release date was the 9th? eek

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Reply #35 posted 02/25/19 9:15am

peedub

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databank said:

peedub said:

databank said: I bought mine separately from npgmc (I think; i know it was an official site). My 'un2' has the 4 second segue. I bought it day of release at my local wrecka stow. I have the vinyl, which starts side 2 with the segue (which is actually pressed into the vinyl). [Edited 2/24/19 9:45am]

Ah yes Pvault confirms that after NPGMC Year 1 it was sold independently. I guess they printed more copies than they had members.


if i recall correctly, i purchased it sometime around the npgmc release of 'musicology'. i recollect the 'true funk soldier' military cap (which i very much regret not purchasing) being available for sale at the same shop.

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Reply #36 posted 02/25/19 9:38am

databank

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peedub said:

databank said:

Ah yes Pvault confirms that after NPGMC Year 1 it was sold independently. I guess they printed more copies than they had members.


if i recall correctly, i purchased it sometime around the npgmc release of 'musicology'. i recollect the 'true funk soldier' military cap (which i very much regret not purchasing) being available for sale at the same shop.

Yeah it makes sense. I wouldn't have noticed because I had it from NPGMC.

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Reply #37 posted 02/25/19 12:40pm

thievesinthete
mple

databank said:

thievesinthetemple said:

My CD copy:

TGRES: 5:40

Segue: 8 seconds

Bought at a Circuit City in Florida on the day it came out.

Ha!

OK now we're getting somewhere! Thx hug

Now the pre-gap post-gap theory could still explain it because Devoted Puppy mysteriously stated it was 8 seconds when he put it into his computer (but IDK if it means it was only in the computer or if he only played it in a computer), and IDK what King Sausage used to play it.

Yet the rip of my own CD (French pressing, purchased on day of release) is 4 seconds and does not have the other differences (silence at end of TGRES and problem with secong segue track overlapping previous track), and the pre-gap theory would not explain the TGRES and Segue #2 differences, so I don't think it's that, but to make sure of it, could you please confirm that TGRES and Segue #1 are that length on a regular CD player, and not just on your PC? And maybe check whether the second Segue actually starts art the end of the previous track?

Thx again for your help hug

At work right now... will check it when I get home.

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Reply #38 posted 02/25/19 1:11pm

Ferret

I think we need a thread to discuss which is the best version.

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Reply #39 posted 02/25/19 1:59pm

luvsexy4all

thse threads give other people an excuse to poke fun at the org

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Reply #40 posted 02/25/19 3:57pm

IstenSzek

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luvsexy4all said:

thse threads give other people an excuse to poke fun at the org


yeah well, let them laught lol at least it's a topic that hasn't been discussed 200.000 times on here.

it's new, it's quirky and niche. and i'm living for it. yes. for 8 seconds of silence lol


and true love lives on lollipops and crisps
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Reply #41 posted 02/25/19 4:27pm

thievesinthete
mple

databank said:

billymeade said:

Could it just be the 2-sec pre- and post-gaps?

That could be the case but yet would not explain TGRES and the second Segue, but nevertheless it's worth checking whether there's a difference between playing it on a CD player or a PC. Let's see what Thieveinthetemple says.

If other people have the CD, please check it out.

Even if Thieveinthetemple confirms that his CD is indeed different even on a CD player, it still means that he and King Sausage have a different version than Musicman, who has the 4 seconds segue on his, while all three of them purchased it in the USA at the time of release, which would discard the possibility of a change between US first print and second print, making it even more mysterious.

OK, so I tested the disc out on both my laptop and in my car... and they behaved very differently between the two.

First the laptop... on my Windows Media Player menu, it listed TGRES as 5:41 and the segue as 0:08. When I played TGRES and skipped toward the end, the song faded out at 5:29 and the track kept playing in silence until the time read 5:40. After that it instantly jumped to the segue, which counted from 0:00 to 0:08 in exactly that amount of time, then instantly went into track 5, "Hot Wit U." Very standard and cut and dried. All told, there was about 20 seconds of silence.

The car stereo was another matter entirely. When TGRES hit 5:30, the display changed from Track 3 to Track 4, and then both the time readout (0:00) and the progress bar remained unchanged for approximately 13 seconds. After that, both of them began to advance, but only until the time reached 3 seconds. Then it flipped from track 4 to track 5, at which point the time readout and the progress bar again remained frozen and silence continued to play for approximately 5 seconds. Once the sound of "Hot Wit U" kicked in, the time display began to advance. As with the laptop, it came to about 20 seconds of silence.

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Reply #42 posted 02/25/19 4:58pm

IstenSzek

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thievesinthetemple said:

databank said:

That could be the case but yet would not explain TGRES and the second Segue, but nevertheless it's worth checking whether there's a difference between playing it on a CD player or a PC. Let's see what Thieveinthetemple says.

If other people have the CD, please check it out.

Even if Thieveinthetemple confirms that his CD is indeed different even on a CD player, it still means that he and King Sausage have a different version than Musicman, who has the 4 seconds segue on his, while all three of them purchased it in the USA at the time of release, which would discard the possibility of a change between US first print and second print, making it even more mysterious.

OK, so I tested the disc out on both my laptop and in my car... and they behaved very differently between the two.

First the laptop... on my Windows Media Player menu, it listed TGRES as 5:41 and the segue as 0:08. When I played TGRES and skipped toward the end, the song faded out at 5:29 and the track kept playing in silence until the time read 5:40. After that it instantly jumped to the segue, which counted from 0:00 to 0:08 in exactly that amount of time, then instantly went into track 5, "Hot Wit U." Very standard and cut and dried. All told, there was about 20 seconds of silence.

The car stereo was another matter entirely. When TGRES hit 5:30, the display changed from Track 3 to Track 4, and then both the time readout (0:00) and the progress bar remained unchanged for approximately 13 seconds. After that, both of them began to advance, but only until the time reached 3 seconds. Then it flipped from track 4 to track 5, at which point the time readout and the progress bar again remained frozen and silence continued to play for approximately 5 seconds. Once the sound of "Hot Wit U" kicked in, the time display began to advance. As with the laptop, it came to about 20 seconds of silence.


my brain is fried now. wtf smile

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Reply #43 posted 02/25/19 5:34pm

djThunderfunk

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This is awesome. I have nothing to add, my CD purchased at Best Buy in the US on the day of release has just 4 seconds. But this is just... Wow! biggrin cool

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Reply #44 posted 02/26/19 12:49am

databank

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luvsexy4all said:

thse threads give other people an excuse to poke fun at the org

Not really, honestly IMHO this kind of threads is what the Org should be about: specialists discussing details and searching for factual infos. There might actually be an alternate version of a Prince album in circulation, it's no small thing after all. And you should see the kind of shit me and Princevault have to go thru when it comes to realizing that there's a one second shorter edit of a track and that, therefore, we have to add a bloody entry to our websites lol

.

I once suggested the mods that the PM&M board be divided into a general gossip & opinions board and a "research" board more in the lines of HQ.com, but they declined.

[Edited 2/26/19 2:39am]

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Reply #45 posted 02/26/19 12:50am

databank

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IstenSzek said:

luvsexy4all said:

thse threads give other people an excuse to poke fun at the org


yeah well, let them laught lol at least it's a topic that hasn't been discussed 200.000 times on here.

it's new, it's quirky and niche. and i'm living for it. yes. for 8 seconds of silence lol


If Emancipation was a fruit, which would it be?

lol

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Reply #46 posted 02/26/19 1:03am

embmmusic

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I'm more intrigued by this King Sausage fellow. Is he named that because he likes sausages, or is he like the king of all sausages? Is he actually a sausage?

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Reply #47 posted 02/26/19 1:11am

databank

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thievesinthetemple said:

databank said:

That could be the case but yet would not explain TGRES and the second Segue, but nevertheless it's worth checking whether there's a difference between playing it on a CD player or a PC. Let's see what Thieveinthetemple says.

If other people have the CD, please check it out.

Even if Thieveinthetemple confirms that his CD is indeed different even on a CD player, it still means that he and King Sausage have a different version than Musicman, who has the 4 seconds segue on his, while all three of them purchased it in the USA at the time of release, which would discard the possibility of a change between US first print and second print, making it even more mysterious.

OK, so I tested the disc out on both my laptop and in my car... and they behaved very differently between the two.

First the laptop... on my Windows Media Player menu, it listed TGRES as 5:41 and the segue as 0:08. When I played TGRES and skipped toward the end, the song faded out at 5:29 and the track kept playing in silence until the time read 5:40. After that it instantly jumped to the segue, which counted from 0:00 to 0:08 in exactly that amount of time, then instantly went into track 5, "Hot Wit U." Very standard and cut and dried. All told, there was about 20 seconds of silence.

The car stereo was another matter entirely. When TGRES hit 5:30, the display changed from Track 3 to Track 4, and then both the time readout (0:00) and the progress bar remained unchanged for approximately 13 seconds. After that, both of them began to advance, but only until the time reached 3 seconds. Then it flipped from track 4 to track 5, at which point the time readout and the progress bar again remained frozen and silence continued to play for approximately 5 seconds. Once the sound of "Hot Wit U" kicked in, the time display began to advance. As with the laptop, it came to about 20 seconds of silence.

My brain is fried, too.

.

And it's getting worse:

Trying to d/l various versions of the album to compare them, I also ran into one where the segue is SIX seconds (TGRES there is normal). Then I checked the second segue and realized that the version of EDIAWR there does not belong to the album: it has a clear beginning and a clear ending (the normal album version segues both in and out), and it comes from somewhere else because then Segue #2 segues out of EVIAWR as should be. I'm going to assum this is a fanmade version and the 6 seconds segue is an encoding problem because obviously that one configuration is a mess.

.

So back to our 8 seconds version that comes from an actual physical CD...

In the end in both cases we have about 20 seconds of silence between the tracks, that much we know.

Could I ask you to also check whether Segue #2 has an issue as well? So far we could still assume this is some sort of technical pre-gap problem, some sort of misprint that would explain why the CD player has issues reading it properly. But if, as on the mp3 copy I have, Segue #2 starts at the end of the Everyday Is A Winding Road track for 2 seconds before getting to its own track, then we know it can't be a problem of that sort. Could still be a misprint thouggh, IDK, but we'd know it goes beyong the 20 seconds of silence.

.

I also noticed that over one thousand people have opened this thread, and I'm quite certain that many among those do possess a physical copy of Rave. It would be really useful if a few other people found out they have the 8 seconds version and tried it on their CD player to tell us what happens. This thread is important, please help nod

[Edited 2/26/19 1:12am]

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Reply #48 posted 02/26/19 1:13am

databank

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dupe

[Edited 2/26/19 1:13am]

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Reply #49 posted 02/26/19 1:15am

databank

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djThunderfunk said:

This is awesome. I have nothing to add, my CD purchased at Best Buy in the US on the day of release has just 4 seconds. But this is just... Wow! biggrin cool

Thx for checking hug

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Reply #50 posted 02/26/19 1:18am

databank

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embmmusic said:

I'm more intrigued by this King Sausage fellow. Is he named that because he likes sausages, or is he like the king of all sausages? Is he actually a sausage?

He's one of us old timers: he's been here since 2002. I see his last post is from last November so that means he's still around. You can orgnote him and ask him these fascinating questions directly lol

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Reply #51 posted 02/26/19 2:23am

IstenSzek

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databank said:

IstenSzek said:


yeah well, let them laught lol at least it's a topic that hasn't been discussed 200.000 times on here.

it's new, it's quirky and niche. and i'm living for it. yes. for 8 seconds of silence lol


If Emancipation was a fruit, which would it be?

lol


falloff


and true love lives on lollipops and crisps
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Reply #52 posted 02/26/19 3:54am

thievesinthete
mple

databank said:

Could I ask you to also check whether Segue #2 has an issue as well? So far we could still assume this is some sort of technical pre-gap problem, some sort of misprint that would explain why the CD player has issues reading it properly. But if, as on the mp3 copy I have, Segue #2 starts at the end of the Everyday Is A Winding Road track for 2 seconds before getting to its own track, then we know it can't be a problem of that sort. Could still be a misprint thouggh, IDK, but we'd know it goes beyong the 20 seconds of silence.

When I pop the CD in my laptop, WMP reads it as:

Everyday is a Winding Road = 6:14

Segue = 0:17

.

This time things were simple across the board. In both the laptop and in my car, when I cue up the end of EIAWR, the strings begin at 6:12 and play for the last 2 seconds, instantly going into the proper Segue track, which lasts 17 seconds.

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Reply #53 posted 02/26/19 4:27am

databank

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thievesinthetemple said:

databank said:

Could I ask you to also check whether Segue #2 has an issue as well? So far we could still assume this is some sort of technical pre-gap problem, some sort of misprint that would explain why the CD player has issues reading it properly. But if, as on the mp3 copy I have, Segue #2 starts at the end of the Everyday Is A Winding Road track for 2 seconds before getting to its own track, then we know it can't be a problem of that sort. Could still be a misprint thouggh, IDK, but we'd know it goes beyong the 20 seconds of silence.

When I pop the CD in my laptop, WMP reads it as:

Everyday is a Winding Road = 6:14

Segue = 0:17

.

This time things were simple across the board. In both the laptop and in my car, when I cue up the end of EIAWR, the strings begin at 6:12 and play for the last 2 seconds, instantly going into the proper Segue track, which lasts 17 seconds.

OK, thx hug It's really cool that you bothered to check that out.

.

So it's not a computer problem: we have definite proof that there are two different original US printings of Rave. Discogs only shows one so I suspect they have the same catalogue number and are undistinguisable from each other except for the tracks themselves. I assume your cat. number is 07822-14624-2 as should be?

.

I suspect it could be a misprint and not something intentional that would have been changed later, since apparently both versions were available from day 1. But if so, I'm a bit confused as to how this could have happened and why only some CD's were affected. Does anyone know about the pressing factories in the US? Do major labels usually press CD's in a single factory for the whole country or can it happen that a single release is being produced in various locations at the same time? Is there any other way 2 versions of a single release can be different?

.

Again, thx for your help if you can help.

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Reply #54 posted 02/26/19 5:27am

dodger

No offence databank but I thought you were taking the piss with this thread but it seems you actually are really concerned about an 8 second segue. Of silence.

lol can't fault your thoroughness that's for sure

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Reply #55 posted 02/26/19 6:28am

AhPook

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databank said:

OK, so it appears there exists a CD edition of Rave that has an 8 second long silent segue instead of the usual 4 seconds.

One or two orgers mentioned it in the past and one (King Sausage, what happened to him?) actually sent me the 8 seconds file, saying he had bought the CD in the US, at the time of release.

I had no reason at all to suspect a prank though it semmed quite unbelievable because neither Princevault nor Discogs acknowledge that segue's existence. And that's odd.

After that, I checked and found that on the P2P network I use for music, while most people share a Rave with a 4 seconds segue, many others share one that has 8, so this version is definitely out there and files size at similar bitrate indicate it's there from different sources. More awkward is TGRES, which is 10 seconds longer than on the regular version, but the last 10 seconds are... 10 seconds of silence, making it more like 18 seconds of silence total. The second (strings) segue also is 2 seconds shorter, because the beginning starts at the end of the previous track. The other tracks seem similar give or take one second in length.

.

So basically the only thing left for me to do is to try and figure out at least where and when this strange version was sold. I wish I could know why and how it happened, but I fear this isn't possible (unless someone knows something).

Hence the following question, if you could please take a minute to check your CD copy of Rave (or its digital rip if it comes straight from your original CD), could you tell me if your segue happens to be 8 seconds (and TGRES 5:40), and if it is the case, when and where did you purchase your copy of the CD (assuming it wasn't second hand of course)?

.

Thx 4 ur help hug

I have the 8 seconds of silence. I bought my copy when it came out. I don't remember the store or whether it was from Amazon, but I was living in Tampa, FL.

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Reply #56 posted 02/26/19 6:37am

AhPook

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thievesinthetemple said:

My CD copy:

TGRES: 5:40

Segue: 8 seconds

Bought at a Circuit City in Florida on the day it came out.

Reading through the entire thread... I almost certainly bought mine from Circuit City. I worked there at the time.

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Reply #57 posted 02/26/19 6:38am

databank

avatar

dodger said:

No offence databank but I thought you were taking the piss with this thread but it seems you actually are really concerned about an 8 second segue. Of silence.

lol can't fault your thoroughness that's for sure

falloff

Of course I'm really concerned. I've spent thousands of hours of my life researching Prince's body of work from every available source and trying to compile a list of each of each and every single note of music ever released by him. Dude, this bloody website of mine, it involve so much nonsense researching little details like this, you have no idea... but you don't start something like this if you're not going to be hardcore about it lol

Just check Scifilfilmnerd's Gold era thread to see the headache me and Bart have gone through to solve the 1993 Undertaker release mystery lol

I'm not the only one tripping of those little details, thanks God! Much love and thanks to everyone in the community who's helping me with those little details, answering my questions in threads such as this one and providing useful info yes hug

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Reply #58 posted 02/26/19 6:44am

databank

avatar

AhPook said:

thievesinthetemple said:

My CD copy:

TGRES: 5:40

Segue: 8 seconds

Bought at a Circuit City in Florida on the day it came out.

Reading through the entire thread... I almost certainly bought mine from Circuit City. I worked there at the time.

Thx hug

The fact that we have TWO occurences of this CD coming from Florida is quite interesting, it could be a clue to the fact that there might be a geographic distribution for those that's distinct from the 4 seconds versions.

KingSausage's profile says he's from Washington but IDK where he purchased his, and IDK either about DevotedPuppy. Gonna orgnote them both and ask.

.

What do y'all think about the misprint theory vs. intentional alternate version theory?

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Reply #59 posted 02/26/19 6:45am

thievesinthete
mple

AhPook said:

thievesinthetemple said:

My CD copy:

TGRES: 5:40

Segue: 8 seconds

Bought at a Circuit City in Florida on the day it came out.

Reading through the entire thread... I almost certainly bought mine from Circuit City. I worked there at the time.

I bought mine at a CC in New Port Richey, FL... less than an hour away from Tampa. Perhaps this variant was limited to a small supply shipped to central Florida and/or Circuit City stores?

[Edited 2/26/19 6:46am]

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