precioux said:

PennyPurple said:

precioux said:

peggyon said:

And there's this:

The consequences of abusing opiates include:

• Dependence: This is how the body adapts to chronic drug exposure, the National Institute on Drug Abuse reports. Whether or not people are addicted, they may experience withdrawal symptoms, such as insomnia, restlessness, muscle or bone pain, diarrhea, vomiting, involuntary movements, and cold flashes.
• Addiction: Individuals who are addicted to a substance are unable to abstain from it. They have no behavioral control, regularly give in to cravings, and may not recognize their behavior and relationships have been affected. Addiction affects the brain’s reward and motivation system. Even after a period of remission, people may relapse with exposure to the substance in their environment or due to stress.
• Brain damage: The slowed breathing that results from opioid overdose can have long-term impacts on the brain. A lack of oxygen to the brain, called hypoxia, can trigger psychological and neurological problems. Some individuals may lapse into a coma. Permanent damage is a very real possibility as well.
• Long-term consequences: If people take opiates for a long time, they may experience symptoms, such as nausea and vomiting, abdominal bloating, and constipation. More serious problems can include liver damage.
• Personal impact: People might withdraw from society, and their behaviors might change with long-term opiate use. This can have profound negative results on personal relationships, career, and family life. Criminal and legal consequences might occur.

americanaddictioncenters.org

THE brain damage paragraph is alarming.

[Edited 7/27/18 14:56pm]

[Edited 7/27/18 14:59pm]

[Edited 7/27/18 15:00pm]

nelcp777 said:

PennyPurple said:

But that would be a HUGE amount of saliva.

I thought that it could be a drink that was thrown but no cup or glass was found.

If it was someone else's vomit, surely Prince would have not just left it there and would have someone clean it up?.. I mean who would want to use the elevator where vomit was that dripped down the wall where you push the buttons?

People have said that he hated elevators, but Judith and I believe Kirk said it wasn't unusual for him to use the elevator.

He did have that party there and someone else could've used the elevator and vomited in it. But that should''ve been cleaned up AND LE said that it looked 'wet' and vomit was in his mouth.

He could have vomited and then took the pills??

There was a photo of an empty glass with a straw in a studio. Like a margarita type glass. Maybe that is it?

not only did I see the pic in the studio, with what looked like some sort of alcoholic drink, but IIRC, I also saw a pic of it thrown away and broken. To boot...in the docs where Prince said something along the lines of "I can't kick this" ( to KJ after the 4/20/16 appointment with Dr.S), he also said something like 'I need a drink'. great catch necp777.

[Edited 7/27/18 15:14pm]

Here's the deal: IF we had a chart showing how much in advance of his death he would have had to injest HOW MANY PILLS WITH FENT. we would most likely know the answer to 1) was it intentional? 2) was the elevator site intentional?

Were the amounts of Fent. in his stash that varied? Not tested thoroughly enough? Is this something we can NEVER know?

IF we can never know when and how many pills...we can only conclude accident (as per the ME), murder (NOPE) or one of the mysteries of the universe we may never be able to crack.

Since the science may never be there for us...I (as well as the ME) look at social, sociological, psychological, situational evidence.

I say suicide...perhaps driven by despair, shame and impulsivity...and I say his last statement (his 'will' you might say) was the elevator.

This is not meant to cause distress to anyone; I believe he thought he was punching a higher floor.

Camileyun said:

precioux said:

Since you brought up the 5 hour drink thing, I'm going to throw this out there, IMO. I think the 5 hour energy drinks were a substitute IF he was truly trying to wean off...if he wasn't, it was used to enhance the drug, as SOME people react very differently and have incredible energy instead of the side effects listed.

Yes. There are several things that can enhance the effects of opiods ( they're called potentiators). It really depends on the individual, but things like Aleve, Nyquil, Diazepam, herbal supplements like St. John's Wort, Valerian, can all be used. All this info. is on the internet. [Edited 7/27/18 14:50pm]

Well I think he had those herbal supplements that you mentioned.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Here's the deal: IF we had a chart showing how much in advance of his death he would have had to injest HOW MANY PILLS WITH FENT. we would most likely know the answer to 1) was it intentional? 2) was the elevator site intentional?

Were the amounts of Fent. in his stash that varied? Not tested thoroughly enough? Is this something we can NEVER know?

IF we can never know when and how many pills...we can only conclude accident (as per the ME), murder (NOPE) or one of the mysteries of the universe we may never be able to crack.

Since the science may never be there for us...I (as well as the ME) look at social, sociological, psychological, situational evidence.

I say suicide...perhaps driven by despair, shame and impulsivity...and I say his last statement (his 'will' you might say) was the elevator.

This is not meant to cause distress to anyone; I believe he thought he was punching a higher floor.

I'm still undecided on it being a suicide.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

PennyPurple said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Here's the deal: IF we had a chart showing how much in advance of his death he would have had to injest HOW MANY PILLS WITH FENT. we would most likely know the answer to 1) was it intentional? 2) was the elevator site intentional?

Were the amounts of Fent. in his stash that varied? Not tested thoroughly enough? Is this something we can NEVER know?

IF we can never know when and how many pills...we can only conclude accident (as per the ME), murder (NOPE) or one of the mysteries of the universe we may never be able to crack.

Since the science may never be there for us...I (as well as the ME) look at social, sociological, psychological, situational evidence.

I say suicide...perhaps driven by despair, shame and impulsivity...and I say his last statement (his 'will' you might say) was the elevator.

This is not meant to cause distress to anyone; I believe he thought he was punching a higher floor.

I'm still undecided on it being a suicide.

Below is the link to the CDC guidelines on how to complete cause of death for medical examiner use. On Pages 21 and 22, it discusses the criteria for Suicide. I tend to believe that the medical examiner was correct in her assessment of accidental.

Bod: When you mention trying to determine the number of pills taken, etc., I am under the impression it isn’t possible to calculate this because these illicit pills may differ in strength. Even if we had a list of all the pills tested with the applicable fentanyl amounts, they don’t necessarily correlate to the pills Prince ingested.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf

Please excuse if not relevant:

"The fentanyl citrate is absorbed in the bloodstream within 20 minutes — as quickly as an injection....The fentanyl in the lollipop retains its potency because, unlike a medicinal patch or a chewed, crumbled lozenge, it is not first digested and then metabolized by the liver.

Rather, it is absorbed into veins in the mouth, pharynx and esophagus."


https://www.nytimes.com/2...entor.html

leec1 said:

PennyPurple said:

I'm still undecided on it being a suicide.

Below is the link to the CDC guidelines on how to complete cause of death for medical examiner use. On Pages 21 and 22, it discusses the criteria for Suicide. I tend to believe that the medical examiner was correct in her assessment of accidental.

Bod: When you mention trying to determine the number of pills taken, etc., I am under the impression it isn’t possible to calculate this because these illicit pills may differ in strength. Even if we had a list of all the pills tested with the applicable fentanyl amounts, they don’t necessarily correlate to the pills Prince ingested.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf

Yeah, that's why we keep going in circles...we don't have the data we need to make a truly informed decision. Each of us is going with our 'gut' and our perceptions are colored by our understanding of drugs and addiction, our adoration (and I use that word purposely) of Prince, our religious or spiritual beliefs and the sheer sadness at the waste of this monumental talent. The death of Prince was no ordinary loss....and each of is is grieving that we couldn't have been the one to comfort and save him.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

leec1 said:

Below is the link to the CDC guidelines on how to complete cause of death for medical examiner use. On Pages 21 and 22, it discusses the criteria for Suicide. I tend to believe that the medical examiner was correct in her assessment of accidental.

Bod: When you mention trying to determine the number of pills taken, etc., I am under the impression it isn’t possible to calculate this because these illicit pills may differ in strength. Even if we had a list of all the pills tested with the applicable fentanyl amounts, they don’t necessarily correlate to the pills Prince ingested.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf

Yeah, that's why we keep going in circles...we don't have the data we need to make a truly informed decision. Each of us is going with our 'gut' and our perceptions are colored by our understanding of drugs and addiction, our adoration (and I use that word purposely) of Prince, our religious or spiritual beliefs and the sheer sadness at the waste of this monumental talent. The death of Prince was no ordinary loss....and each of is is grieving that we couldn't have been the one to comfort and save him.

Is there a way to get ahold of the DEA files with/without a FOIA filing? I think I've asked ISLIJAG previously, but don't remember if it was answered (?)

rednblue said:

Please excuse if not relevant:

"The fentanyl citrate is absorbed in the bloodstream within 20 minutes — as quickly as an injection....The fentanyl in the lollipop retains its potency because, unlike a medicinal patch or a chewed, crumbled lozenge, it is not first digested and then metabolized by the liver.

Rather, it is absorbed into veins in the mouth, pharynx and esophagus."


https://www.nytimes.com/2...entor.html

Thanks for posting this, I think it's important. I never thought he took pills for the last intentional dose..

If that was the method of ingestion, the ME would know....if a rectal suppository, she would know....her conclusion may not have changed...she might still have ruled accidental no matter the route of transmission but this is info that we are not privy to bc it's in the full autopsy.... end of story.

[Edited 7/27/18 17:14pm]

purplefam99 said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

leec1 said:

Below is the link to the CDC guidelines on how to complete cause of death for medical examiner use. On Pages 21 and 22, it discusses the criteria for Suicide. I tend to believe that the medical examiner was correct in her assessment of accidental.

Bod: When you mention trying to determine the number of pills taken, etc., I am under the impression it isn’t possible to calculate this because these illicit pills may differ in strength. Even if we had a list of all the pills tested with the applicable fentanyl amounts, they don’t necessarily correlate to the pills Prince ingested.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_me.pdf

Yeah, that's why we keep going in circles...we don't have the data we need to make a truly informed decision. Each of us is going with our 'gut' and our perceptions are colored by our understanding of drugs and addiction, our adoration (and I use that word purposely) of Prince, our religious or spiritual beliefs and the sheer sadness at the waste of this monumental talent. The death of Prince was no ordinary loss....and each of is is grieving that we couldn't have been the one to comfort and save him.

Unfortunately, I don't know if anyone is able to help comfort/save someone with addiction issues as they have to want the help. I have been reading the articles this week about Demi Lovato who ended up in the hospital after narcan was administered at her home. The articles I read stated Demi distanced herself from her lifecoach, some of her close associates offered to help her get sober but she refused. Reading these articles made me think about Prince........

leec1 said:

Unfortunately, I don't know if anyone is able to help comfort/save someone with addiction issues as they have to want the help. I have been reading the articles this week about Demi Lovato who ended up in the hospital after narcan was administered at her home. The articles I read stated Demi distanced herself from her lifecoach, some of her close associates offered to help her get sober but she refused. Reading these articles made me think about Prince........

Yes Demi is reminding me of Prince too. The only difference is Prince's camp came out with the 'flu'. Demi's camp is coming out with the truth. Hopefully her family will get thru to her, where Prince had no family.

PennyPurple said:

leec1 said:

Unfortunately, I don't know if anyone is able to help comfort/save someone with addiction issues as they have to want the help. I have been reading the articles this week about Demi Lovato who ended up in the hospital after narcan was administered at her home. The articles I read stated Demi distanced herself from her lifecoach, some of her close associates offered to help her get sober but she refused. Reading these articles made me think about Prince........

Yes Demi is reminding me of Prince too. The only difference is Prince's camp came out with the 'flu'. Demi's camp is coming out with the truth. Hopefully her family will get thru to her, where Prince had no family.

Great points. Also, Demi has very directly referenced her struggles, e.g. "Sober."

precioux said:

paulludvig said:

PennyPurple said:

Some of the enema's were tested and came up negative for any drug. Nasal sprays and eye drops were also tested and came up negative. Can't find the results on the swabs on the hands and neck.

The testing of nasal spray, eye drops and such shows that the investigators were puzzled by this too.

Just wanted to talk about withdrawals. You can have opiates in your system and still be withdrawing if you are taking less than your norm.

Interesting case of an alcolholic we cared for recently. He was in withdrawal though he had really high levels of alcohol in his system. His levels were astromonical but he was in withdrawal. The MD pointed it out to me. Withdrawals are relative to what you are used to. KJ said, as I recall, he noted Prince to be showing signs of withdrawal on the way home from Dr. S's. His requirement of Narcan 4 mg IV shows he was used to very high levels. I stand behind the possiblity that he was withdrawing and could have vomited in the elevator.

Nola said:

precioux said:

Since you brought up the 5 hour drink thing, I'm going to throw this out there, IMO. I think the 5 hour energy drinks were a substitute IF he was truly trying to wean off...if he wasn't, it was used to enhance the drug, as SOME people react very differently and have incredible energy instead of the side effects listed.

Maybe he dissolved the fentanyl in the energy drinks and that’s why there was no pill residue in his stomach despite the high levels? I guess we could speculate about any number of things, but I just remembered something - I have a friend who cannot swallow even the smallest of pills. Maybe P was the same. There were an awful lot of those 5 hour energy drink bottle around PP. Maybe he thought it would get into his system faster than waiting for a pill to dissolve, and with nothing else in his stomach....?? Probably grasping at straws. I’m sure they tested whatever was left in the water/energy drink/juice bottles.

I was thinkning he could have crushed the pills and drank the resulting liquid. This would have given him a really immediate effect and explain why there were no pills in his stomach

precioux said:

Is there a way to get ahold of the DEA files with/without a FOIA filing? I think I've asked ISLIJAG previously, but don't remember if it was answered (?)

No can do.

It's still an open investigation with the DEA.

Makes sense. Maybe that is what the stain was...vomit that consisted only of liquid and opiods. Maybe he vomited on the floor, then went back and took more because he thought he had lost the opium when he threw it up, but some of the opiods didn't come up--thus the reason why he had stuff in his blood and stomach. By the way, can someone remind me how the stain story came about. Someone said Theo claimed that Kirk was cleaning a stain, but theo didn't work there anymore. How would he know? (who told him?)

peggyon said:

Nola said:

precioux said: Maybe he dissolved the fentanyl in the energy drinks and that’s why there was no pill residue in his stomach despite the high levels? I guess we could speculate about any number of things, but I just remembered something - I have a friend who cannot swallow even the smallest of pills. Maybe P was the same. There were an awful lot of those 5 hour energy drink bottle around PP. Maybe he thought it would get into his system faster than waiting for a pill to dissolve, and with nothing else in his stomach....?? Probably grasping at straws. I’m sure they tested whatever was left in the water/energy drink/juice bottles.

I was thinkning he could have crushed the pills and drank the resulting liquid. This would have given him a really immediate effect and explain why there were no pills in his stomach

Those five hour energy drinks are so bad for you too. His heart must have been racing all the time.

Nola said:

precioux said:

Since you brought up the 5 hour drink thing, I'm going to throw this out there, IMO. I think the 5 hour energy drinks were a substitute IF he was truly trying to wean off...if he wasn't, it was used to enhance the drug, as SOME people react very differently and have incredible energy instead of the side effects listed.

Maybe he dissolved the fentanyl in the energy drinks and that’s why there was no pill residue in his stomach despite the high levels? I guess we could speculate about any number of things, but I just remembered something - I have a friend who cannot swallow even the smallest of pills. Maybe P was the same. There were an awful lot of those 5 hour energy drink bottle around PP. Maybe he thought it would get into his system faster than waiting for a pill to dissolve, and with nothing else in his stomach....?? Probably grasping at straws. I’m sure they tested whatever was left in the water/energy drink/juice bottles.

Start to boring. WHat is happen? Anything?

SkipperLove said:

Makes sense. Maybe that is what the stain was...vomit that consisted only of liquid and opiods. Maybe he vomited on the floor, then went back and took more because he thought he had lost the opium when he threw it up, but some of the opiods didn't come up--thus the reason why he had stuff in his blood and stomach. By the way, can someone remind me how the stain story came about. Someone said Theo claimed that Kirk was cleaning a stain, but theo didn't work there anymore. How would he know? (who told him?)

peggyon said:

I was thinkning he could have crushed the pills and drank the resulting liquid. This would have given him a really immediate effect and explain why there were no pills in his stomach

Theo had gone to PP on the day that P passed. (On the Theo L investigation tape about 3 minutes in.)

[Edited 7/28/18 0:05am]

So he witnessed it, heard Kirk tell him about it or heard someone else state that they witnessed it?

che777x said:

SkipperLove said:

Makes sense. Maybe that is what the stain was...vomit that consisted only of liquid and opiods. Maybe he vomited on the floor, then went back and took more because he thought he had lost the opium when he threw it up, but some of the opiods didn't come up--thus the reason why he had stuff in his blood and stomach. By the way, can someone remind me how the stain story came about. Someone said Theo claimed that Kirk was cleaning a stain, but theo didn't work there anymore. How would he know? (who told him?)

Theo had gone to PP on the day that P passed. (On the Theo L investigation tape about 3 minutes in.)

[Edited 7/28/18 0:05am]