paulludvig said:

PennyPurple said:

The fentanyl pills were seperated, he knew which ones were the fentanyl. He even told Judith after Moline he got the 2 mixed up.

I don't think he knew. Why would he want pills only containing lidocaine?

Because as been stated here before, the lidocaine played a role. The lidocaine pills were also seperated.

paulludvig said:

PennyPurple said:

No, there was more then 2 hospital visits for OD's. The other one was I THINK 2011,12,13 (don't remember specific year) it had been report that he died and fans were starting to wear their prince shirts.

I have never heard anything about those incidences. Source?

You've never heard anything about any of those incidences? The so called aspirin and wine incident, the OD on the plane? Give me a break and start doing some research, instead of wanting everyone else to do it for you.

PennyPurple said:

paulludvig said:

PennyPurple said: I have never heard anything about those incidences. Source?

You've never heard anything about any of those incidences? The so called aspirin and wine incident, the OD on the plane? Give me a break and start doing some research, instead of wanting everyone else to do it for you.

I think paul was talking about the other incidents you mentioned, not the aspirin and wine incident, nor the plane. But the "The other one was I THINK 2011,12,13 (don't remember specific year) it had been report that he died and fans were starting to wear their prince shirts." I was a Prince fan in 2011, 12, 13, and I don't ever remember hearing a report that Prince had died and that people had started wearing their Prince shirts.

No, Judith Hill said he told her that he "MIXED the two," not that he "got the two mixed up" -- you can find it on page 29 of Judith Hill's interview transcript

-

Here's the exact quote of judith recollecting what Prince said in Moline: "He's like, I think it's just because I mixed the two"...and then the interviewer confirms: "he told you that he thought it was that he mixed the two" and Judith replies "yeah." Then the interviewer says: "Did he exaborate any more on that, like he mixed two different pills or..." and Judith finishes, "Percocet and this other thing in the Bayer," and she said he claimed he took "two of the ones in the Bayer" and he didn't say how much he took of the Percocet. Judith goes on to say "In his mind he was like no, it's cause I mixed the two."

-

Judith statement is pretty clear that Prince wasn't saying he got confused and accidentally took the wrong pill; it's that he combined what he believed were two different kinds of pills -- his legit percocet and what was in the Bayer bottle -- and he thought that triggered some sort of reaction in his body. According to Judith he goes on to "fixate" on the Narcan he was given, implying that was the cause of some of his problems.

-

To me that sounds like he he DIDN'T know what was in the Bayer pills; he was mystified that his body respnded as it did when he took what he thought was just a fairly normal quantity of opioid pills, and he chalked it up to some sort of weird reaction to the combo (not to an OD).

-

Of couse, that assumes he was even being honest about what he did and what he thought when talkign with Judith. In Moline he also wasn't exactly being entirely forthcoming and open, hence the drug-test refusal.

PennyPurple said:

Lovejunky said:

Thank you Benni...the Voice of reason

CO SIGN...Have had simliar experiences

Prince never slept a lot...how many times have we hears that over the years....?

However he did mention to Judith that he suddenly liked sleeping a lot...

and one of the Side affects of FENTANYL is Drowsiness

I dont believe he KNEW it was fentanyl he was taking and would have been bewlildered

as to why he was feeling Antsy that day at Shculenbergs.

He knew his body and was very measured in what he was taking..

Half and quarter pills...

I believe the Fentanyl somehow found its way in amongst his regular pills

and he took it as if it was what he was used to...

The fentanyl pills were seperated, he knew which ones were the fentanyl. He even told Judith after Moline he got the 2 mixed up.

[Edited 7/10/18 7:35am]

Lovejunky said:

benni said:

I don't know, disch. Maybe I'm just in another denial phase. The topic veering on to driving while under the influence, started my brain to rumbling and tumbling, and I remembered being given pain medication but still being able to completely function. Of course, the doctors told me to not drive, and I didn't, but my ex-husband, my friends, couldn't tell that the pain pills were effecting my cognitive abilities or motor skills at all. For me, it just felt good to not hurt right then. Which veered me to thinking about dependency vs the addiction again. Honestly, if he became addicted, I think it was towards the very end. But no one will ever convince me that he was a functioning addict or an addict for the past 7 to 10 years of his life. I grew up around addicts, some of them highly functioning (to the outside world). At home, it was a mess. Prince does not fit any of the molds I have of addiction as viewed from personal experience, up close and personal.

Thank you Benni...the Voice of reason

CO SIGN...Have had simliar experiences

Prince never slept a lot...how many times have we hears that over the years....?

However he did mention to Judith that he suddenly liked sleeping a lot...

and one of the Side affects of FENTANYL is Drowsiness

I dont believe he KNEW it was fentanyl he was taking and would have been bewlildered

as to why he was feeling Antsy that day at Shculenbergs.

He knew his body and was very measured in what he was taking..

Half and quarter pills...

I believe the Fentanyl somehow found its way in amongst his regular pills

and he took it as if it was what he was used to...

I think the evidence points to Prince suffering from a relapsing condition in which he compulsively used despite net negative consequences. This is the essence of addiction. Yesterday, I posted the definition of addiction per the U.S. National Insitute on Drug Abuse.

I grew up with very high functioning addiction, and I've know many who suffered from addiction through my work. I think the key is to remember that people suffering addiction represent myriad individual stories. To try to divide these people into overly simple groups (e.g. "good" and "bad" addicts -- NOT saying either of you are doing that in particular) contributes to stigma/suffering/pain and is often deadly.

I think it's very important to respect people's individual stories:

There's a saying in the brain research field: "If you've seen one person with autism, you've seen one person with autism." Same goes for addiction.

[Edited 7/10/18 5:54am]

benni said:

PennyPurple said:

You've never heard anything about any of those incidences? The so called aspirin and wine incident, the OD on the plane? Give me a break and start doing some research, instead of wanting everyone else to do it for you.

I think paul was talking about the other incidents you mentioned, not the aspirin and wine incident, nor the plane. But the "The other one was I THINK 2011,12,13 (don't remember specific year) it had been report that he died and fans were starting to wear their prince shirts." I was a Prince fan in 2011, 12, 13, and I don't ever remember hearing a report that Prince had died and that people had started wearing their Prince shirts.

It's been talked about on this very forum, several times. Yes, at 6;15 am in the morning I don't feel like going thru pages of research to prove a point to someone the specific date and time.

I especially don't feel like doing the research for Paul, who probably hasn't done a bit of research at all.

PennyPurple said:

PennyPurple said:

paulludvig said:

PennyPurple said:

Because as been stated here before, the lidocaine played a role. The lidocaine pills were also seperated.

What role? It has no role when taken orally.

How sure are you about that? There are scientific studies that show different.

paulludvig said:

PennyPurple said:

You've never heard anything about any of those incidences? The so called aspirin and wine incident, the OD on the plane? Give me a break and start doing some research, instead of wanting everyone else to do it for you.

I have heard about those two, but not the third incident you are alluding to.

There have been several other incidents.

Here's a link to just 1 of them on this very forum.

http://prince.org/msg/7/451220?&pg=3

Can you link to those scientific studies about the efficacy of swallowing lidocaine? Or at least let us know where we can locate them?

-

(and no, i'm not asking you to "research for me." I hunted quite a bit around the internet last week for anything that would confirm the efficacy of swallowed lidocaine, and I came up totally blank -- I only found documents that explained why swallowing lidocaine doesn't do anything ).

PennyPurple said:

paulludvig said:

PennyPurple said: What role? It has no role when taken orally.

How sure are you about that? There are scientific studies that show different.

[Edited 7/10/18 7:15am]

Penny, the page you link to below was recounting some gossip from 1983 about Prince being dead (kind of like the "paul is dead" gossip around the beatle).

-

But I think this tangent is missing the forest for the trees. The point is (at least the point I was trying to make when when I listed out a couple confirmed drug-related hospital visits) was: There were incidences in Prince's past where some kind of substance use required a signficant medical response. We know of a couple incidents that are pretty reliably confirmed, and there may be others that we in the public don't know about.

PennyPurple said:

paulludvig said:

PennyPurple said: I have heard about those two, but not the third incident you are alluding to.

There have been several other incidents.

Here's a link to just 1 of them on this very forum.

http://prince.org/msg/7/451220?&pg=3

[Edited 7/10/18 7:15am]

disch said:

Can you link to those scientific studies about the efficacy of swallowing lidocaine? Or at least let us know where we can locate them?

-

(and no, i'm not asking you to "research for me." I hunted quite a bit around the internet last week for anything that would confirm the efficacy of swallowed lidocaine, and I came up totally blank -- I only found documents that explained why swallowing lidocaine doesn't do anything ).

PennyPurple said:

How sure are you about that? There are scientific studies that show different.

[Edited 7/10/18 7:15am]

Here's a few, make of it what you will.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3922201/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4330610/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16787726

disch said:

Penny, the page you link to below was recounting some gossip from 1983 about Prince being dead (kind of like the "paul is dead" gossip around the beatle).

-

But I think this tangent is missing the forest for the trees. The point is (at least the point I was trying to make when when I listed out a couple confirmed drug-related hospital visits) was: There were incidences in Prince's past where some kind of substance use required a signficant medical response. We know of a couple incidents that are pretty reliably confirmed, and there may be others that we in the public don't know about.

PennyPurple said:

There have been several other incidents.

Here's a link to just 1 of them on this very forum.

http://prince.org/msg/7/451220?&pg=3

[Edited 7/10/18 7:15am]

That page here on the forum that I linked to, was actually being discussed this year. That thread did confirm that several people heard it themselves.

There was also another incident after his hip surgery but I'm unsure the exact year, day and time but again when I have more time and feel like posting the links I will be sure to do so.

I don't think you can take much of what the prince circle says as fact. Most of them either participated, helped him get drugs, or at very least knew and were part of keeping his habits private. Saying too much truth only implicates themselves. And this goes all the way back to the early days up until the present. If prince took a lot of drugs to run the hours he did, so did the people around him trying to keep up. They are all talking out their ass trying to preserve their own image.

TrevorAyer said:

I don't think you can take much of what the prince circle says as fact. Most of them either participated, helped him get drugs, or at very least knew and were part of keeping his habits private. Saying too much truth only implicates themselves. And this goes all the way back to the early days up until the present. If prince took a lot of drugs to run the hours he did, so did the people around him trying to keep up. They are all talking out their ass trying to preserve their own image.

That's the truth.

I've often wondered when the documents came out, and they seen that Omarr was naming names, as well as several others and what Judith Hill said about Sheila E wanting her to stay quiet, I wonder how they feel about each other now?

peggyon said:

I think we are mostly on the same page that there were a series of likely drug-related events requiring resuscitation, ie., Narcan, "stomach pumping" etc. over the years. Mayte mentioned the "aspirin and wine" event which happened in 1996. There were likely other "near misses" including "waking up" after "sleeping" that we have not been alerted to.

Yes.

PennyPurple said:

disch said:

Can you link to those scientific studies about the efficacy of swallowing lidocaine? Or at least let us know where we can locate them?

-

(and no, i'm not asking you to "research for me." I hunted quite a bit around the internet last week for anything that would confirm the efficacy of swallowed lidocaine, and I came up totally blank -- I only found documents that explained why swallowing lidocaine doesn't do anything ).

[Edited 7/10/18 7:15am]

Here's a few, make of it what you will.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3922201/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4330610/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16787726

Thank you for posting these, Penny! A straightforward answer we can discuss is a relief and means a lot.

The first article doesn't appear to be about oral ingestion. Can someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The second two seem to be reports of toxicity of oral lidocaine. The first describes seizures. The second, titled "Suicide due to oral ingestion of lidocaine: a case report and review of the literature."

Quote from second article: " When blood lidocaine reaches toxic levels, serious toxic symptoms associated with the central nervous system and cardiac system are noted. The overdose of lidocaine produces death from ventricular fibrillation or cardiac arrest."

So, as noted earlier, the second two articles describe toxicity of sufficient amounts of oral lidocaine.

Edited to add: second article describes ingestion of lidocaine in liquid solution.

[Edited 7/10/18 7:59am]

PennyPurple said:

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

Not if you are looking at Prince...do agree he was being given something by someone to make him not well for some time

The only person who gave him something was his supplier, P willing with his own hands took those pills and placed them in his mouth and swallowed.

THIS...I always wonder why it's so hard for some well-meaning, caring fans to accept this.

I'm not a scientist but these are what I have been researching and haven't been completely thru them yet.

rednblue said:

PennyPurple said:

Here's a few, make of it what you will.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3922201/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4330610/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16787726

Thank you for posting these, Penny! A straightforward answer we can discuss is a relief and means a lot.

The first article doesn't appear to be about oral ingestion. Can someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The second two seem to be reports of toxicity of oral lidocaine. The first describes seizures. The second, titled "Suicide due to oral ingestion of lidocaine: a case report and review of the literature."

Quote from second article: " When blood lidocaine reaches toxic levels, serious toxic symptoms associated with the central nervous system and cardiac system are noted. The overdose of lidocaine produces death from ventricular fibrillation or cardiac arrest."

So, as noted earlier, the second two articles describe toxicity of sufficient amounts of oral lidocaine.

Edited to add: second article describes ingestion of lidocaine in liquid solution.

[Edited 7/10/18 7:59am]

I'm certainly not going to rehash this whole lidocaine debate, but the links you posted below don't have anything to do with the issue of lidocaine being an effective medication when ingested orally.

-

The first article doesn't mention anything about oral lidocaine ingestion. The second 2 recount rare incidences where people were poisoned by swallowing a lot of lidocaine -- a toddler who had convulsions, and a woman who killed herself. Swallowing lots of stuff -- hydrogen peroxide, window cleaner, etc. -- can make you sick or even kill you if the quantity's great enough. That doesn't mean that people would seek it out in pill form -- quite the opposite, I'd think!

-

Anyway, I'm not delving into this topic again. If Prince was custom-ordering counterfeit pills with precise and different chemical compositions as part of a regimented dosing plan, then it was pretty shortsighted to have all the pills made to look nearly identical -- i.e., just like legit Vicodins.

PennyPurple said:

disch said:

Can you link to those scientific studies about the efficacy of swallowing lidocaine? Or at least let us know where we can locate them?

-

(and no, i'm not asking you to "research for me." I hunted quite a bit around the internet last week for anything that would confirm the efficacy of swallowed lidocaine, and I came up totally blank -- I only found documents that explained why swallowing lidocaine doesn't do anything ).

[Edited 7/10/18 7:15am]

Here's a few, make of it what you will.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3922201/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4330610/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16787726

Then why did you ask for links? I gave the links to what I am researching.

disch said:

I'm certainly not going to rehash this whole lidocaine debate, but the links you posted below don't have anything to do with the issue of lidocaine being an effective medication when ingested orally.

-

The first article doesn't mention anything about oral lidocaine ingestion. The second 2 recount rare incidences where people were poisoned by swallowing a lot of lidocaine -- a toddler who had convulsions, and a woman who killed herself. Swallowing lots of stuff -- hydrogen peroxide, window cleaner, etc. -- can make you sick or even kill you if the quantity's great enough. That doesn't mean that people would seek it out in pill form -- quite the opposite, I'd think!

-

Anyway, I'm not delving into this topic again. If Prince was custom-ordering counterfeit pills with precise and different chemical compositions as part of a regimented dosing plan, then it was pretty shortsighted to have all the pills made to look nearly identical -- i.e., just like legit Vicodins.

PennyPurple said:

Here's a few, make of it what you will.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3922201/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4330610/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16787726

what do you mean, why did I ask for iinks? I asked for links so I could understand what you meant when you said that there was scientific evidence about the efficacy of oral lidocaine.

-

I actually read all 3 of the links you provided (yes, I actually read the links people post when the topic is of interest to me). Those particular links didn't provide evidence of the efficacy of oral lidocaine for any purpose, let alone anything related to opioids -- only that if someone sallows a lot of lidcaine, it can be toxic (kind of like how swallowing a lot of hydrogen peroxide can be toxic, or nicotine liquid, or Visine, or...)

PennyPurple said:

Then why did you ask for links? I gave the links to what I am researching.

disch said:

I'm certainly not going to rehash this whole lidocaine debate, but the links you posted below don't have anything to do with the issue of lidocaine being an effective medication when ingested orally.

-

The first article doesn't mention anything about oral lidocaine ingestion. The second 2 recount rare incidences where people were poisoned by swallowing a lot of lidocaine -- a toddler who had convulsions, and a woman who killed herself. Swallowing lots of stuff -- hydrogen peroxide, window cleaner, etc. -- can make you sick or even kill you if the quantity's great enough. That doesn't mean that people would seek it out in pill form -- quite the opposite, I'd think!

-

Anyway, I'm not delving into this topic again. If Prince was custom-ordering counterfeit pills with precise and different chemical compositions as part of a regimented dosing plan, then it was pretty shortsighted to have all the pills made to look nearly identical -- i.e., just like legit Vicodins.

disch said:

what do you mean, why did I ask for iinks? I asked for links so I could understand what you meant when you said that there was scientific evidence about the efficacy of oral lidocaine.

-

I actually read all 3 of the links you provided (yes, I actually read the links people post when the topic is of interest to me). Those particular links didn't provide evidence of the efficacy of oral lidocaine for any purpose, let alone anything related to opioids -- only that if someone sallows a lot of lidcaine, it can be toxic (kind of like how swallowing a lot of hydrogen peroxide can be toxic, or nicotine liquid, or Visine, or...)

PennyPurple said:

Then why did you ask for links? I gave the links to what I am researching.

It has to do with the sodium currents.

I don't have all day to explain it to you, you asked for the links and I gave you the links that I am researching at this point. They could be right, they could be wrong, I'm still doing the research.

If all the pills looked the same to him, why were they seperated out? Because he knew what he was doing.

Most reports in the literature have shown that the effects of opioid analgesics are primarily mediated by μ-opioid receptor (MOR), whereas other potential targets of opioid analgesics have not been thoroughly characterized. In this study, we found that extracellular application of morphine, fentanyl or oxycodone, which are all considered to be MOR agonists, at relatively high concentrations, but not endogenous μ-opioid peptides, produced a concentration-dependent suppression of sodium currents in cultured thalamic neurons. These effects of opioids were not affected by either a MOR antagonist naloxone or a deletion of MOR gene. Among these opioids, fentanyl strongly suppressed sodium currents to the same degree as lidocaine, and both morphine and oxycodone slightly but significantly reduced sodium currents when they were present extracellularly. In contrast, the intracellular application of morphine, but not oxycodone, fentanyl or lidocaine, reduced sodium currents. These results suggest that morphine, fentanyl and oxycodone each produce the MOR-independent suppression of sodium currents by distinct mechanisms in thalamic neurons.

[Edited 7/10/18 8:36am]

paulludvig said:

PennyPurple said:

No, there was more then 2 hospital visits for OD's. The other one was I THINK 2011,12,13 (don't remember specific year) it had been report that he died and fans were starting to wear their prince shirts.

I have never heard anything about those incidences. Source?

i never heard about the naked one until he passed. was there chatter here on the org about it back then?

disch said:

Page 58, Dr S recounting the April 20 appointment: "Prince denied any nausea, vomiting or diarrhea but was asking about opioid withdrawal symptoms."

PennyPurple said:

No, I thought Dr S figured out it was withdrawal, I don't remember seeing where P asked specifically about withdrawel. (maybe I missed it)

if he is asking the DR S about opiod withdrawal symptoms isn't he basically telling the dr that he is having them?? seems like he was being as up front as he could and was trying to wean or control it.

benni said:

PennyPurple said:

You've never heard anything about any of those incidences? The so called aspirin and wine incident, the OD on the plane? Give me a break and start doing some research, instead of wanting everyone else to do it for you.

I think paul was talking about the other incidents you mentioned, not the aspirin and wine incident, nor the plane. But the "The other one was I THINK 2011,12,13 (don't remember specific year) it had been report that he died and fans were starting to wear their prince shirts." I was a Prince fan in 2011, 12, 13, and I don't ever remember hearing a report that Prince had died and that people had started wearing their Prince shirts.

me too^^^

PennyPurple said:

disch said:

what do you mean, why did I ask for iinks? I asked for links so I could understand what you meant when you said that there was scientific evidence about the efficacy of oral lidocaine.

-

I actually read all 3 of the links you provided (yes, I actually read the links people post when the topic is of interest to me). Those particular links didn't provide evidence of the efficacy of oral lidocaine for any purpose, let alone anything related to opioids -- only that if someone sallows a lot of lidcaine, it can be toxic (kind of like how swallowing a lot of hydrogen peroxide can be toxic, or nicotine liquid, or Visine, or...)

It has to do with the sodium currents.

I don't have all day to explain it to you, you asked for the links and I gave you the links that I am researching at this point. They could be right, they could be wrong, I'm still doing the research.

If all the pills looked the same to him, why were they seperated out? Because he knew what he was doing.

Most reports in the literature have shown that the effects of opioid analgesics are primarily mediated by μ-opioid receptor (MOR), whereas other potential targets of opioid analgesics have not been thoroughly characterized. In this study, we found that extracellular application of morphine, fentanyl or oxycodone, which are all considered to be MOR agonists, at relatively high concentrations, but not endogenous μ-opioid peptides, produced a concentration-dependent suppression of sodium currents in cultured thalamic neurons. These effects of opioids were not affected by either a MOR antagonist naloxone or a deletion of MOR gene. Among these opioids, fentanyl strongly suppressed sodium currents to the same degree as lidocaine, and both morphine and oxycodone slightly but significantly reduced sodium currents when they were present extracellularly. In contrast, the intracellular application of morphine, but not oxycodone, fentanyl or lidocaine, reduced sodium currents. These results suggest that morphine, fentanyl and oxycodone each produce the MOR-independent suppression of sodium currents by distinct mechanisms in thalamic neurons.

[Edited 7/10/18 8:36am]

Thank you, Penny, this mirrors my research and indicates to me that 1) he knew he had a major addiction, 2) he was very smart and knowledgable about the effect his CHOSEN drugs were having on his body...he really understood the metabolic and brain processes, 3)he was in contact with other addicts or suppliers who had walked him through the lidocaine regime and 4) he was trying desperately to wean and control his addiction himself on the down low. Independent, stubborn and controlling to the end.

[Edited 7/10/18 9:01am]

yes I read all about sodium channels last week. Not going through all that again. It's not a question of the links being "right" or "wrong"; it's that they don't dicuss what you're looking for (evidence that swallowing lidocaine has desireable effects that opioid users in particular seek out).

-

Anyway, why were most the pills separated? I've stated my theory a minumum of 3 times in the last week: that's simply the way they came to him. He got his "vicodins" at different times and/or from different sources, and the composition of the batches was different. (And to be totally accurate: They weren't all separated. In one of the 4 bottles -- I believe it was one of the vitamin bottle -- the pills that were tested contained different chemical compositions).

PennyPurple said:

disch said:

what do you mean, why did I ask for iinks? I asked for links so I could understand what you meant when you said that there was scientific evidence about the efficacy of oral lidocaine.

-

I actually read all 3 of the links you provided (yes, I actually read the links people post when the topic is of interest to me). Those particular links didn't provide evidence of the efficacy of oral lidocaine for any purpose, let alone anything related to opioids -- only that if someone sallows a lot of lidcaine, it can be toxic (kind of like how swallowing a lot of hydrogen peroxide can be toxic, or nicotine liquid, or Visine, or...)

It has to do with the sodium currents.

I don't have all day to explain it to you, you asked for the links and I gave you the links that I am researching at this point. They could be right, they could be wrong, I'm still doing the research.

If all the pills looked the same to him, why were they seperated out? Because he knew what he was doing.

Most reports in the literature have shown that the effects of opioid analgesics are primarily mediated by μ-opioid receptor (MOR), whereas other potential targets of opioid analgesics have not been thoroughly characterized. In this study, we found that extracellular application of morphine, fentanyl or oxycodone, which are all considered to be MOR agonists, at relatively high concentrations, but not endogenous μ-opioid peptides, produced a concentration-dependent suppression of sodium currents in cultured thalamic neurons. These effects of opioids were not affected by either a MOR antagonist naloxone or a deletion of MOR gene. Among these opioids, fentanyl strongly suppressed sodium currents to the same degree as lidocaine, and both morphine and oxycodone slightly but significantly reduced sodium currents when they were present extracellularly. In contrast, the intracellular application of morphine, but not oxycodone, fentanyl or lidocaine, reduced sodium currents. These results suggest that morphine, fentanyl and oxycodone each produce the MOR-independent suppression of sodium currents by distinct mechanisms in thalamic neurons.

[Edited 7/10/18 8:36am]