rednblue said:

benni said:

With pain medication, one thing to keep in mind, again, is the difference between addiction and dependency. An addict is going to use the drug, and use as much of it, as they can even if it causes severe impairment in their functioning. Someone who is dependent on pain medication, will use it to get the pain under control, just to feel normal.

And this is where I have a hard time picturing Prince as being addicted. I think he was dependent upon these medications to "feel normal". In that situation, his driving would not really be impaired. However, he would still need to continue to take the medication to avoid any kind of withdrawal symptoms.

From what I can find, no one has ever really come forward to say, "Oh yes, there were definite times when Prince was impaired. We could tell it. He was high as a kite." The general consensus, including with fans, and you know we all watched him closely during performances, when he was in public, EVERYTHING he did or said was under scrutiny when it came to his fans, but the general consensus seemed to be shock that he was even using pain medication. If he were a full on addict, none of us would have been surprised by what happened. We would have been expecting it. The fact that we were not expecting it, the fact that we were surprised and shocked at the cause of death, the fact that we were surprised at the number of pills hidden throughout PP, hidden in other mismarked bottles, etc., shows just how well all of it was kept under wraps. If he had been an addict, it would not have been that well controlled, that great of a secret.

As someone that was dependent upon these pills then, Prince could have taken his medication and went about functioning just as he normally did. However, he would have had to continue taking the pills, and he would have required more of them over time to just feel normal.

I work with elderly and disabled individuals, I've worked in hospice, and many of the individuals that I work with take some very strong pain medications, and there are many of them that you cannot tell they are taking anything. Their pain is under control, period, but it is not causing them any impairment.

I have my own anecdote about these pain medications; two of them actually. Once, I had a clot that ran up the entire length of my leg, went to the ER and they gave me something. I don't know what the medication was, but I was not hurting any more. I ended up signing myself out AMA because there was just no more pain. I wasn't strung out on the pain medication, was functioning just as I would normally, and I saw no need for me to stay in the hospital, because there wasn't any more pain. (I was only 18 or 19). About 4 hours later, 3 AM, I was begging my husband to take me back to the ER, because the pain medication had worn off and I was in excruciating pain. Then about 5 years ago, I was in a car accident and ruptured my spleen. In the ER, again, they gave me, I think it was dilaudid. My pain was so severe before then that my body was shaking. Every time a nurse walked by, she was bringing me another blanket, thinking I was cold, because I was shaking so severely and my teeth were chattering. Finally another nurse recognized that it was my body's response to the pain, and not because I was cold. The dilaudid helped with the pain. I actually got out of bed to walk to the bathroom at one point, wasn't hurting. They kept ime in the ER for over 24 hours, waiting for a bed in ICU to open up. After the 24 hours were up, and no bed available in ICU, they put me in a step down unit. This hospital would not allow them to use the pain medication that was given to me in the ER in the main hospital section, and my pain came back, severely. They could not get the pain under control but did get it lessened to where it was bearable. BUT, my point is, in both of those situations, with the strength of pain medication given to me (and I only weighed 116 pounds when I was 18/19 and am 5'8" tall), I was not cognitively impaired from the medication. It just got my pain under control, where I felt pain free and perfectly normal. Prince could have driven in that kind of state.

Benni, I really appreciate your thoughtful posts. If I had to make an educated guess about Prince, I'd say his behavior suggested that he suffered from addiction. Some addicted people are very high functioning, sometimes successfully hiding their condition from friends, family, coworkers, etc. The current definition of addiction focuses on continued compulsive use despite significant net negative consequences. A couple of quotes from the U.S. National Institute on Drug Abuse:

"...different parts of the brain are responsible for the addiction and dependence to heroin and opiates....Thus, it is possible to be dependent on morphine, without being addicted to morphine. (Although, if one is addicted, they are most likely dependent as well.) This is especially true for people being treated chronically with morphine, for example, pain associated with terminal cancer. They may be dependent - if the drug is stopped, they suffer a withdrawal syndrome. But, they are not compulsive users of the morphine, and they are not addicted. Finally, people treated with morphine in the hospital for pain control after surgery are unlikely to become addicted; although they may feel some of the euphoria, the analgesic and sedating effects predominate. There is no compulsive use and the prescribed use is short-lived."

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/teaching-packets/neurobiology-drug-addiction/section-iii-action-heroin-morphine/10-addiction-vs-dependence

"Addiction is defined as a chronic, relapsing brain disease that is characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use, despite harmful consequences. It is considered a brain disease because drugs change the brain; they change its structure and how it works. These brain changes can be long lasting and can lead to many harmful, often self-destructive, behaviors."

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/media-guide/science-drug-abuse-addiction-basics

rednblue, thank you. I have posted similar things in other threads related to addiction and dependence, and have pointed out that often, if one is addicted, they are also dependent upon the drug, but that if one is dependent, does not necessarily mean they are addicted.

I do not believe that Prince was addicted, or at least was not addicted until right before his death. I think Prince had dependency. Yes, there are high functioning addicts, but even they give tell-tale signs if people pay attention.

Spotting a High-Functioning Addict

As with everyone addicted to drugs and alcohol, high-functioning addicts are not a lost cause. With some understanding and knowledge, loved ones can identify the problem signs and intervene before a drug problem grows so powerful that it takes control of – or ends – the user’s life.

Here are five signs that someone you love may be a high-functioning addict:

• They Make Excuses for Behaviors

A high-functioning addict may chalk up their drug and alcohol use to being standard behavior in their profession. They may also justify it as a reward for their hard work or career success.

• Drinking or Doing More Drugs than Intended

Most of us have said “just one drink” and had that one turn into several during a night out. But for the high-functioning addict, this is just a regular occurrence. They simply can’t control their usage.

• Their Friends Also Have Addiction Issues

Look at who your loved one socializes with. If their friends routinely binge drink or use illegal substances – or if your loved one doesn’t want to socialize unless drugs and alcohol are involved – it’s likely a sign that there is a bigger underlying issue.

• Appearing Ill in the Morning

A high-functioning addict may chalk up constant headaches or lethargic energy to simple things like “not being a morning person.” But, in truth, he or she could regularly be suffering from hangovers or withdrawal symptoms.

• Losing Interest in Hobbies

If you notice your loved one has suddenly put down their guitar or stopped playing soccer, it could be because his substance abuse is starting to take over his life.

disch said:

There was the running-around-PP-naked incident in 2010 that seemed drug-related, and 2 drug-related hospital visits that we know of prior to his fatal od (moline and the 1996 “aspirin and wine” incident). Plus his sound engineer quitting the Australia piano & mic tour due to princes “erratic” behavior. We don’t know the exact role drugs played in these incidents but these are just what we know about — I’m sure there were other things. - That being said clearly he was very functional by and large or he wouldn’t have been able to maintain his professional schedule. benni said:

But that moodiness, loopiness, upredictable behavior could also have been a result of his lack of any kind of sleep habit. Sleep deprivation is a real thing and can have some serious affects on health, cognition, and motor functions.

After 24 hours of no sleep, you will display impaired memory, judgment, and coordination. After 36 hours, your health starts to deteriorate. After 48 hours you start to experience what is called microsleep and disorientation. After 72 hours, you experience hallucinations and major cognitivie deficits.

Prince was notorious for going days without sleep, especially when he got in "zone" musicially.

But many of those stories are heresay, aren't they? I had started reading the released documents, but gave up after a time, because it was just too invasive into Prince's world, something that he had always kept private and I didn't feel right going through them. And again, with the erratic behavior, we'd have to look at his sleep schedule around that time, too, to ensure that it was not interferring in his behavior. I don't know your sleep habits, but I've had issues with sleep my entire life, and I can tell you when I am sleep deprived, my behaviors show it. Even how I move can feel very jerky to me, and I get extremely moody and erratic in my behavior. It's a very weird feeling overall. I'm not saying that drugs didn't have a part in those situations, as I said, I stopped reading the reports and haven't studied a lot of them, but we'd have to give equal time in looking at other factors that may have been related to this situations, instead of just saying, "Oh, yes, he died of an overdose so those behaviors are explained exclusively by drug use." A true non-biased look at the situations would take into account everything that might have played a role in his behaviors.

Unfortunately, he required 4 mg of Narcan to reverse his symtoms. This tells me he was a very heavy user. Rememer,1- 2 mg reverses most users I think KJ's dentist concluded he was a serious addict. Correct me if I am wrong...

[Edited 7/9/18 21:42pm]

[Edited 7/9/18 21:45pm]

peggyon said:

Unfortunately, he required 4 mg of Narcan to reverse his symtoms. This tells me he was a very heavy user. I think KJ's dentist concluded he was a serious addict. Correct me if I am wrong...

[Edited 7/9/18 21:42pm]

benni said:

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

Once again KJ involved...P was given something by someone on that plane, possibly the first fentanyl laced pill and it required the narcan to revive him. We don't know reading what has been released how muck fentanyl was in what ever he was given that night or how it was given to him, pill form or if someone on that plane put it in his food. JH claimed he was eating when he drifted

He went to the back of the plane where he kept his black bag and likely took something then per Judith. She seems very honest and forthcoming to me.

This information is in the investigative files.(Judith being interviewed) Please also refer to the statements of KJ's dentist as well. She was very clear that they were dealing with an addict.

Please read the files, otherwise this is us chasing out tails.

peggyon said:

disch said:

I’m not sure what you mean by hearsay. These were reported by witnesses in the investigation files (2 people in the investigation files described the pp incident for example) and/or in Maytes book. - I haven’t heard reports that prince ever went 48-72 hours without any sleep — and if someone did do that, I would wonder if drugs were playing a role. benni said:

But many of those stories are heresay, aren't they? I had started reading the released documents, but gave up after a time, because it was just too invasive into Prince's world, something that he had always kept private and I didn't feel right going through them. And again, with the erratic behavior, we'd have to look at his sleep schedule around that time, too, to ensure that it was not interferring in his behavior. I don't know your sleep habits, but I've had issues with sleep my entire life, and I can tell you when I am sleep deprived, my behaviors show it. Even how I move can feel very jerky to me, and I get extremely moody and erratic in my behavior. It's a very weird feeling overall. I'm not saying that drugs didn't have a part in those situations, as I said, I stopped reading the reports and haven't studied a lot of them, but we'd have to give equal time in looking at other factors that may have been related to this situations, instead of just saying, "Oh, yes, he died of an overdose so those behaviors are explained exclusively by drug use." A true non-biased look at the situations would take into account everything that might have played a role in his behaviors.

[Edited 7/9/18 21:53pm]

As I said, I hadn't fully read the reports before I stopped reading them.

Regarding the sleep thing, per Lenny (when he they did Rave Unto concert):

"But it was Prince. I agreed. I hired a private jet and loaded my guitar and a couple of people and we flew to Minneapolis. When we landed everything was white, silver and cold. I checked into the hotel and went over to Paisley Park. I said, “Okay, let’s do this. What time tonight?” Prince said, “I don’t know. Let’s play it by ear.” His band is on call. There’s a soundstage and a film crew. We hung around the studio for a while and his apartment there. I kept thinking, “When are we gonna do this?”


"Cut to two days later. He’s kept me awake the whole time. Man, I’m starting to fade and I’m still waiting to go do these songs. I’m just falling apart, ready to crash. At the exact moment where I’m starting to fall asleep he goes, “C’mon man, we gotta do it now.” I was like, “Now?” He’s like, “Yeah, right now. Grab your guitar. We gotta do it now!” That’s what we did. If you watch the video I seem a little out of it and I’m low-energy. My voice wasn’t really in great form. No excuses, but I stayed up for two days and I was done. I was like, “This guy is a vampire! How does he do it?” His energy was beyond anybody’s energy I’d ever met.

And disch, I've stayed up 48 to 72 hours before, and drugs did not play a role. PTSD did, insomnia, but not drugs. Of course, when I have times like that, where I don't sleep, I eventually crash after a couple of days. It also effects my health, my immune system is shot, and I get a cold or something right around that time.

[Edited 7/9/18 22:03pm]

Honestly this aligns fairly well with what we know about Prince, at least in his last months.

benni said:

Spotting a High-Functioning Addict

As with everyone addicted to drugs and alcohol, high-functioning addicts are not a lost cause. With some understanding and knowledge, loved ones can identify the problem signs and intervene before a drug problem grows so powerful that it takes control of – or ends – the user’s life.

Here are five signs that someone you love may be a high-functioning addict:

• They Make Excuses for Behaviors

A high-functioning addict may chalk up their drug and alcohol use to being standard behavior in their profession. They may also justify it as a reward for their hard work or career success.

• Drinking or Doing More Drugs than Intended

Most of us have said “just one drink” and had that one turn into several during a night out. But for the high-functioning addict, this is just a regular occurrence. They simply can’t control their usage.

• Their Friends Also Have Addiction Issues

Look at who your loved one socializes with. If their friends routinely binge drink or use illegal substances – or if your loved one doesn’t want to socialize unless drugs and alcohol are involved – it’s likely a sign that there is a bigger underlying issue.

• Appearing Ill in the Morning

A high-functioning addict may chalk up constant headaches or lethargic energy to simple things like “not being a morning person.” But, in truth, he or she could regularly be suffering from hangovers or withdrawal symptoms.

• Losing Interest in Hobbies

If you notice your loved one has suddenly put down their guitar or stopped playing soccer, it could be because his substance abuse is starting to take over his life.

yeah i remember this story. It's hard to know if he's being exactly literal or more figurative.

-

If it's literal, my first impulse would be: that sounds like drug-fueled behavior.

-

I hear you about not being comfortable reading the report because of the invasiveness. But the files contain a lot of information relating to drug issues -- quite a few people had direct comments (for example, his assistant Crystal who quit because she said she didn't want to become his drug dealer, which she felt that she was being pressured to do). Not everyone who was interviewed, for sure -- but a number of people.

benni said:

disch said:

I’m not sure what you mean by hearsay. These were reported by witnesses in the investigation files (2 people in the investigation files described the pp incident for example) and/or in Maytes book. - I haven’t heard reports that prince ever went 48-72 hours without any sleep — and if someone did do that, I would wonder if drugs were playing a role. benni said: [Edited 7/9/18 21:53pm]

As I said, I hadn't fully read the reports before I stopped reading them.

Regarding the sleep thing, per Lenny (when he they did Rave Unto concert):

"But it was Prince. I agreed. I hired a private jet and loaded my guitar and a couple of people and we flew to Minneapolis. When we landed everything was white, silver and cold. I checked into the hotel and went over to Paisley Park. I said, “Okay, let’s do this. What time tonight?” Prince said, “I don’t know. Let’s play it by ear.” His band is on call. There’s a soundstage and a film crew. We hung around the studio for a while and his apartment there. I kept thinking, “When are we gonna do this?”


"Cut to two days later. He’s kept me awake the whole time. Man, I’m starting to fade and I’m still waiting to go do these songs. I’m just falling apart, ready to crash. At the exact moment where I’m starting to fall asleep he goes, “C’mon man, we gotta do it now.” I was like, “Now?” He’s like, “Yeah, right now. Grab your guitar. We gotta do it now!” That’s what we did. If you watch the video I seem a little out of it and I’m low-energy. My voice wasn’t really in great form. No excuses, but I stayed up for two days and I was done. I was like, “This guy is a vampire! How does he do it?” His energy was beyond anybody’s energy I’d ever met.

[Edited 7/9/18 22:08pm]

disch said:

yeah i remember this story. It's hard to know if he's being exactly literal or more figurative.

-

If it's literal, my first impulse would be: that sounds like drug-fueled behavior.

benni said:

As I said, I hadn't fully read the reports before I stopped reading them.

Regarding the sleep thing, per Lenny (when he they did Rave Unto concert):

"But it was Prince. I agreed. I hired a private jet and loaded my guitar and a couple of people and we flew to Minneapolis. When we landed everything was white, silver and cold. I checked into the hotel and went over to Paisley Park. I said, “Okay, let’s do this. What time tonight?” Prince said, “I don’t know. Let’s play it by ear.” His band is on call. There’s a soundstage and a film crew. We hung around the studio for a while and his apartment there. I kept thinking, “When are we gonna do this?”


"Cut to two days later. He’s kept me awake the whole time. Man, I’m starting to fade and I’m still waiting to go do these songs. I’m just falling apart, ready to crash. At the exact moment where I’m starting to fall asleep he goes, “C’mon man, we gotta do it now.” I was like, “Now?” He’s like, “Yeah, right now. Grab your guitar. We gotta do it now!” That’s what we did. If you watch the video I seem a little out of it and I’m low-energy. My voice wasn’t really in great form. No excuses, but I stayed up for two days and I was done. I was like, “This guy is a vampire! How does he do it?” His energy was beyond anybody’s energy I’d ever met.

Sorry, I had went back and edited my original post. I've stayed up that long, 2 to 3 days and it's not related to drugs. It's, well as a friend of mine once described it, my lack of any kind of sleep habits. PTSD, insomnia, can't shut my brain off to save my life. Also, dated a musician once, and once he got in that musical groove, if the mood hit him, he could stay up for very long periods of time and not realize how much time had past. He didn't do drugs either.

disch said:

disch said:

Honestly this aligns fairly well with what we know about Prince, at least in his last months.

benni said:

Spotting a High-Functioning Addict

As with everyone addicted to drugs and alcohol, high-functioning addicts are not a lost cause. With some understanding and knowledge, loved ones can identify the problem signs and intervene before a drug problem grows so powerful that it takes control of – or ends – the user’s life.

Here are five signs that someone you love may be a high-functioning addict:

• They Make Excuses for Behaviors

A high-functioning addict may chalk up their drug and alcohol use to being standard behavior in their profession. They may also justify it as a reward for their hard work or career success.

• Drinking or Doing More Drugs than Intended

Most of us have said “just one drink” and had that one turn into several during a night out. But for the high-functioning addict, this is just a regular occurrence. They simply can’t control their usage.

• Their Friends Also Have Addiction Issues

Look at who your loved one socializes with. If their friends routinely binge drink or use illegal substances – or if your loved one doesn’t want to socialize unless drugs and alcohol are involved – it’s likely a sign that there is a bigger underlying issue.

• Appearing Ill in the Morning

A high-functioning addict may chalk up constant headaches or lethargic energy to simple things like “not being a morning person.” But, in truth, he or she could regularly be suffering from hangovers or withdrawal symptoms.

• Losing Interest in Hobbies

If you notice your loved one has suddenly put down their guitar or stopped playing soccer, it could be because his substance abuse is starting to take over his life.

In the last few months, yes. But not in the last 7 to 10 years.

benni said:

Do i agree with the theory that he was being intentionally slipped drugs as part of a murder plot? No.

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

disch said:

Honestly this aligns fairly well with what we know about Prince, at least in his last months.

Not if you are looking at Prince...do agree he was being given something by someone to make him not well for some time

disch said:

I don't know, disch. Maybe I'm just in another denial phase. The topic veering on to driving while under the influence, started my brain to rumbling and tumbling, and I remembered being given pain medication but still being able to completely function. Of course, the doctors told me to not drive, and I didn't, but my ex-husband, my friends, couldn't tell that the pain pills were effecting my cognitive abilities or motor skills at all. For me, it just felt good to not hurt right then. Which veered me to thinking about dependency vs the addiction again. Honestly, if he became addicted, I think it was towards the very end. But no one will ever convince me that he was a functioning addict or an addict for the past 7 to 10 years of his life. I grew up around addicts, some of them highly functioning (to the outside world). At home, it was a mess. Prince does not fit any of the molds I have of addiction as viewed from personal experience, up close and personal.

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

benni said:

I don't know, disch. Maybe I'm just in another denial phase. The topic veering on to driving while under the influence, started my brain to rumbling and tumbling, and I remembered being given pain medication but still being able to completely function. Of course, the doctors told me to not drive, and I didn't, but my ex-husband, my friends, couldn't tell that the pain pills were effecting my cognitive abilities or motor skills at all. For me, it just felt good to not hurt right then. Which veered me to thinking about dependency vs the addiction again. Honestly, if he became addicted, I think it was towards the very end. But no one will ever convince me that he was a functioning addict or an addict for the past 7 to 10 years of his life. I grew up around addicts, some of them highly functioning (to the outside world). At home, it was a mess. Prince does not fit any of the molds I have of addiction as viewed from personal experience, up close and personal.

Thank you Benni...the Voice of reason

CO SIGN...Have had simliar experiences

Prince never slept a lot...how many times have we hears that over the years....?

However he did mention to Judith that he suddenly liked sleeping a lot...

and one of the Side affects of FENTANYL is Drowsiness

I dont believe he KNEW it was fentanyl he was taking and would have been bewlildered

as to why he was feeling Antsy that day at Shculenbergs.

He knew his body and was very measured in what he was taking..

Half and quarter pills...

I believe the Fentanyl somehow found its way in amongst his regular pills

and he took it as if it was what he was used to...

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

I don't think P would be going to Dr S cuz he felt sick and he requested fluids if P knew he was addicted to drugs. P was wanting an answer as to why he was feeling the way he did. He died before he received the test results that would have confirmed someone was giving him laced pills

P knew he was addicted to drugs. Tylenol isn't marked Watson 853.

disch said:

Prince specifically asked dr s about opioid withdrawal, and dr s prescribed him 3 drugs that are used to ease opioid-withdrawal symptoms, per dr s’ investigation interview. - I think he knew his pressing physical issues were caused by withdrawal, and dr s tried to address that issue. -

No, I thought Dr S figured out it was withdrawal, I don't remember seeing where P asked specifically about withdrawel. (maybe I missed it)

disch said:

There was the running-around-PP-naked incident in 2010 that seemed drug-related, and 2 drug-related hospital visits that we know of prior to his fatal od (moline and the 1996 “aspirin and wine” incident). Plus his sound engineer quitting the Australia piano & mic tour due to princes “erratic” behavior. We don’t know the exact role drugs played in these incidents but these are just what we know about — I’m sure there were other things. - That being said clearly he was very functional by and large or he wouldn’t have been able to maintain his professional schedule. benni said:

No, there was more then 2 hospital visits for OD's. The other one was I THINK 2011,12,13 (don't remember specific year) it had been report that he died and fans were starting to wear their prince shirts.

PurpleDiamonds1 said:

Not if you are looking at Prince...do agree he was being given something by someone to make him not well for some time

The only person who gave him something was his supplier, P willing with his own hands took those pills and placed them in his mouth and swallowed.

Lovejunky said:

Thank you Benni...the Voice of reason

CO SIGN...Have had simliar experiences

Prince never slept a lot...how many times have we hears that over the years....?

However he did mention to Judith that he suddenly liked sleeping a lot...

and one of the Side affects of FENTANYL is Drowsiness

I dont believe he KNEW it was fentanyl he was taking and would have been bewlildered

as to why he was feeling Antsy that day at Shculenbergs.

He knew his body and was very measured in what he was taking..

Half and quarter pills...

I believe the Fentanyl somehow found its way in amongst his regular pills

and he took it as if it was what he was used to...

The fentanyl pills were seperated, he knew which ones were the fentanyl. He even told Judith after Moline he got the 2 mixed up.

PennyPurple said:

PennyPurple said:

PennyPurple said:

Page 58, Dr S recounting the April 20 appointment: "Prince denied any nausea, vomiting or diarrhea but was asking about opioid withdrawal symptoms."

PennyPurple said:

disch said:

Prince specifically asked dr s about opioid withdrawal, and dr s prescribed him 3 drugs that are used to ease opioid-withdrawal symptoms, per dr s’ investigation interview. - I think he knew his pressing physical issues were caused by withdrawal, and dr s tried to address that issue. -

No, I thought Dr S figured out it was withdrawal, I don't remember seeing where P asked specifically about withdrawel. (maybe I missed it)