Menes said:

disch said:

What the customers want is opioids, not useless lidocaine. - Manufacturers add cutting agents to maximize their profit. If they dupe someone into buying some cheap pills At the price of expensive opioids, then that’s smart business for them (and keep in mind that the manufactur may be several steps removed from the final customer; it may be the middle person being ripped off). - As I said several times before it may also just be manufacturer error that makes some pills all-filler instead of opioid (ie shoddy lab work). - Anyway, did you have sources you’d like to share explaining how lidocaine is actually an effective drug when ingested orally? You seem convinced that I’m wrong when I’ve said it’s not. - Menes said:

I thought the narrative was that it was a used as a "cutting agent".There would be no need to rip off the "people" if you are using it as a cutting agent because the "people" would have gotten exactly what they wanted with several fentanyl+lidocaine batches that were found.

In this case, the dealer just happened to not use it as a cutting agent, but "ripped off" his client by supplying pills that he (the dealer) didn't use to cut said product with, which means , a loss to the dealer's revenue stream. Dumb dealer.

[Edited 7/3/18 22:28pm]

Did you answer my questions concerning an NDMA antagonist, sodium channels and its affect on neuro transmitters? I thought you said you had the answers to those questions. I could have sworn I had asked them before. You must not have seen that , eh? They all are relational and is applicable to your LIDOCAINE.

Menes said:

disch said:

What the customers want is opioids, not useless lidocaine. - Manufacturers add cutting agents to maximize their profit. If they dupe someone into buying some cheap pills At the price of expensive opioids, then that’s smart business for them (and keep in mind that the manufactur may be several steps removed from the final customer; it may be the middle person being ripped off). - As I said several times before it may also just be manufacturer error that makes some pills all-filler instead of opioid (ie shoddy lab work). - Anyway, did you have sources you’d like to share explaining how lidocaine is actually an effective drug when ingested orally? You seem convinced that I’m wrong when I’ve said it’s not. - Menes said: [Edited 7/3/18 22:28pm]

Did you answer my questions concerning an NDMA antagonist, sodium channels and its affect on neuro transmitters? I thought you said you had the answers to those questions. I could have sworn I had asked them before. You must not have seen that , eh? They all are relational and is applicable to your LIDOCAINE.

Let me help you out because it is obvious you dont have answers.This is a basic overview. w

An opiate like fenatnyl shares a synergistic relation with LIDOCAINE. (I know you know what that means)


There is a role that an NDMA antagonist plays in pain mamagement . Just like there is a role that an opioid receptors play in pain managment.

You can figure out how lidocaine inihibits the action of an NDMA receptor on your own time. You can call it whatever you want but ther is a clear signaling pathway to describe it. You will fid that out too.

You can figure out the role that Lidocaine plays to affect sodium channels as it relates to inhibiting perceived nerve pain on your own time .

Opioid withdrawals, by all defintion, is sensory perception of pain governed by neuro transmitters which in turn, sends messags to a receptor that tells you" I'm in pain". Vomiting is pain, flu like symptoms is pain, gastro intestinal discomfort is pain, diarhhea is pain, tingling ( a hint of neuropathy) is pain,constipation is pain, not being able to swallow your food is pain... etc etc etc.

Lone term abusers like Prince ,are usually super sensitive to pain. This is not that "hip pain" crap you've been hearing about.

Long term use reduces the opioids receptor sensitivity and increases sensitized pain in withdrawals.

Any withdrawals from a susbtance as strong as fentanyl, will induce severe pain as the effect of the drug wears off/ or when tolerance levels are increased dramatically. This pain is what you define as 'withdrawals' .The brain perceives this as "pain" because of a binding action to said receptor. Lidocaine is merely a way of tolerating the effects of withdrawals when said efffects of an opiod subsides because of its binding action to an NMDA receptor.

Menes said:

Menes said:

Did you answer my questions concerning an NDMA antagonist, sodium channels and its affect on neuro transmitters? I thought you said you had the answers to those questions. I could have sworn I had asked them before. You must not have seen that , eh? They all are relational and is applicable to your LIDOCAINE.

Let me help you out because it is obvious you dont have answers.This is a basic overview. w

An opiate like fenatnyl shares a synergistic relation with LIDOCAINE. (I know you know what that means)


There is a role that an NDMA antagonist plays in pain mamagement . Just like there is a role that an opioid receptors play in pain managment.

You can figure out how lidocaine inihibits the action of an NDMA receptor on your own time. You can call it whatever you want but ther is a clear signaling pathway to describe it. You will fid that out too.

You can figure out the role that Lidocaine plays to affect sodium channels as it relates to inhibiting perceived nerve pain on your own time .

Opioid withdrawals, by all defintion, is sensory perception of pain governed by neuro transmitters which in turn, sends messags to a receptor that tells you" I'm in pain". Vomiting is pain, flu like symptoms is pain, gastro intestinal discomfort is pain, diarhhea is pain, tingling ( a hint of neuropathy) is pain,constipation is pain, not being able to swallow your food is pain... etc etc etc.

Lone term abusers like Prince ,are usually super sensitive to pain. This is not that "hip pain" crap you've been hearing about.

Long term use reduces the opioids receptor sensitivity and increases sensitized pain in withdrawals.

Any withdrawals from a susbtance as strong as fentanyl, will induce severe pain as the effect of the drug wears off/ or when tolerance levels are increased dramatically. This pain is what you define as 'withdrawals' .The brain perceives this as "pain" because of a binding action to said receptor. Lidocaine is merely a way of tolerating the effects of withdrawals when said efffects of an opiod subsides because of its binding action to an NMDA receptor.

You can compare that to your cutting agent/ manufacturer's error/greedy dealer/smart business plan complete with a five (5) year pro forma/ and whatever else you can throw at it. That is the last ill say about it , albeit more detailed information is available . Frankly , that was the last of it , period. You can debate , argue , dissect and it wouldn't matter one bit to me. I wont be responding ( if you know what I mean). All roads lead to Rome and the Pope is dead.

Menes said:

disch said:

disch said:

Penny I am listening. Unlike almost anyone else here, I’m actually reading and responding to what he’s posting (as opposed to whatever few other people are still reading this thread who are just skipping over his posts, I imagine) - In fact, I’ve spent a good amount of time looking into the topics he’s brought up. That’s how I know his “facts” are wrong. Fortunately he’s already acknowledged he was wrong about one critical “fact” he repeated many times (that dr s, in an effort to curb princes opioid-withdrawal symptoms, prescribed prince lidocaine. That’s false). - As I said before, facts don’t have sides. - - PennyPurple said:

I don't know why people are so adament about keeping Menes quiet. Why can't he make his case like the rest of us are doing?

You can take the case he makes anyway you want to, opinion, fact or BS. But he should be able to make his case. Why don't we at least try to listen?

every.single.post

precioux said:

Rebeljuice said:

I have always been in two minds as to how Prince dealt with his addiction. 1) He was pretty naive about it all and just fed his addiction according to what his body was telling him he needed without much thought into what it was he put into his body. 2) He was very clued up on the chemistry and dosages and physical effects of what he was taking. He would split pills, combine and alter his pill intake depending on circumstance, physical health, food intake etc.

If the former then there is an argument that he could have died a long time ago. throwing caution to the wind and being obliviuous to what you are ingesting does not make for a long term drug habit. Not when your drug of choice is in the opiate family. But then are we sure he had a long term habit and not just something that over came him in the last year or two of his life? If we think he has been at it for many years then he could not have been this kind of care-free addict.

If the latter then there is a good case for determining Prince was a seasoned addict that controlled his intake and was able to function at high levels for a very long period of time. If this is the case, your example of Prince seeing Dr S and testing only for Hydrocodone could merely point to Prince knowing that a test on monday would reveal fent, but if he waited until Tuesday the fent, with its short half life would no longer be traceable. He wouldn't have to be a chemist to know these things. google will tell you a lot about it all. An addict will always try and hide, if not the addiction itself, then the seriousness of the addiction. If Prince was determined not to reveal the extent of how far down the rabbit hole he had gone, setting his own test dates is a way of continuing to hide the severity.

I'm kind of erring on the side of him being pretty knowledagle about his addiction and the chemicals he needed to feed it. And my reason for that is because I think he has been on this roller coaster for many years. I guess the only big question I have left is did he seek out the strong stuff or did he end up with it by accident. Afterall, he had prescription drugs around him that he could have taken (and was taking according to the Dr S test), so why take the pills in the Bayer bottle? Was it at a point where nothing else satisfied him? Or was he unlucky and thought he had something less potent?

bravo!!!

Great post! This needs to sink in for those who are leery

1. Unless Prince lived out his lyrics from SOTT ("now he's doing horse...it's June"...well, April in this case), It's almost absurd to think of one going from percocet to fentanyl in the course of a year...or 2 for that matter
2. Hydromorphone (Dilaudid)was found in his UA- he sought out the stronger stuff. Period.End. of. story.

Exactly. I too am a firm believet he was using drugs for many years, having what I called way back a manageable addiction and being a high functioning addict. His reaction in Moline, asking JH to tell him exactly what had been given him, is quite a tell. He knew his body well, he organized his intake of the drugs with precision, and then "panicked" over what the 2 shots given by paramedics might have altered things.

[Edited 7/4/18 1:52am]

MMJas said:

precioux said:

bravo!!!

Great post! This needs to sink in for those who are leery

1. Unless Prince lived out his lyrics from SOTT ("now he's doing horse...it's June"...well, April in this case), It's almost absurd to think of one going from percocet to fentanyl in the course of a year...or 2 for that matter
2. Hydromorphone (Dilaudid)was found in his UA- he sought out the stronger stuff. Period.End. of. story.

Exactly. I too am a firm believet he was using drugs for many years, having what I called way back a manageable addiction and being a high functioning addict. His reaction in Moline, asking JH to tell him exactly what had been given him, is quite a tell. He knew his body well, he organized his intake of the drugs with precision, and then "panicked" over what the 2 shots given by paramedics might have altered things.

[Edited 7/4/18 1:52am]

YES yes and YES...

He either

1) Miscalculated his dosage ~ Accidental

or

2) Decided it ~ Deliberate

or

3) Some one FED him what he wasnt used to ~ Conspiracy~

I dont buy what we ve been told ...

we have only see what they have allowed us to see,,,

SO many redacted files and witheld statements...

I have my own feelings on what happened, and Im relatively at peace with it..

I dont have much to bring to the table

but Ive been following since part 1

I dont buy that he did it deliberately

I do believe it may have been an accident

and

from time to time

I entertain the 3rd option

carry on people....

Lovejunky said:

MMJas said:

Exactly. I too am a firm believet he was using drugs for many years, having what I called way back a manageable addiction and being a high functioning addict. His reaction in Moline, asking JH to tell him exactly what had been given him, is quite a tell. He knew his body well, he organized his intake of the drugs with precision, and then "panicked" over what the 2 shots given by paramedics might have altered things.

[Edited 7/4/18 1:52am]

YES yes and YES...

He either

1) Miscalculated his dosage ~ Accidental

or

2) Decided it ~ Deliberate

or

3) Some one FED him what he wasnt used to ~ Conspiracy~

I dont buy what we ve been told ...

we have only see what they have allowed us to see,,,

SO many redacted files and witheld statements...

I have my own feelings on what happened, and Im relatively at peace with it..

I dont have much to bring to the table

but Ive been following since part 1

I dont buy that he did it deliberately

I do believe it may have been an accident

and

from time to time

I entertain the 3rd option

carry on people....

This in bold.

disch said:

Penny I am listening. Unlike almost anyone else here, I’m actually reading and responding to what he’s posting (as opposed to whatever few other people are still reading this thread who are just skipping over his posts, I imagine) - In fact, I’ve spent a good amount of time looking into the topics he’s brought up. That’s how I know his “facts” are wrong. Fortunately he’s already acknowledged he was wrong about one critical “fact” he repeated many times (that dr s, in an effort to curb princes opioid-withdrawal symptoms, prescribed prince lidocaine. That’s false). - As I said before, facts don’t have sides. - - PennyPurple said:

I don't know why people are so adament about keeping Menes quiet. Why can't he make his case like the rest of us are doing?

You can take the case he makes anyway you want to, opinion, fact or BS. But he should be able to make his case. Why don't we at least try to listen?

Thank you Disch for keeping your cool and remaining gracious. You may be right in that some are skipping posts such as myself. The I am smarter than you stuff and I will prove it (smh) along with the condenscending tone of a few others has gotten boring. Maybe it's for entertainment purposes or makes some feel important? Appreciate your posts.

[Edited 7/4/18 5:12am]

I am grateful to those of you who have shared either your personal or professional/scientific knowledge of these drugs. I have had no experience with them (except a fleeting liking of oxycontin given by an ER doctor to treat pain). What you have written has helped (and complicated) my understanding of what might have been going on in Prince's life.

AA1slot said:

Is anyone wondering why the pure lidocaine pills were seperated from the others?

paulludvig said:

It's pretty clear that Menes doesn't know what he is talking about.

Hi Paul, nice that you could join the conversation just to insult someone.

It looks to me like Menes knows without a doubt what he's talking about.

disch said:

Thanks — yes I’m trying my best to stay fairly respectful in my posts even when others seem to be taking a different tact. - For anyone who read this last group of posts and is like, what are these people babbling about lidocaine and whatever: - Lidocaine is a legit local anesthetic found in over the counter topical skin ointments, throat sprays, even stuff like some preparation h. It superficially numbs the area it touches. - Doctors can prescribe stronger topical formulas. They also can use it in an infusion (e.g., an injection) for local pain relief. A common example is the stuff you get injected in your mouth during a dental procedure. There are a couple more specialized infusion uses by surgeons and other doctors in certain settings (for example to correct an irregular heartbeat) but that’s the gist. - It’s not useful when swallowed (and thus its not manufactured in legit pill form) because its chemicals can’t really pass through the liver to make it into the bloodstream. - It has no relationship to opioids because it works on totally different receptors in the brain than opioids do. It’s not prescribed as part of any opioid withdrawal protocol; it doesn’t impact opioid withdrawal symptoms (nausea, agitation, etc). - It’s commonly used as a useless “cutting agent” (filler, basically) with illegal drugs because it’s really cheap and has the right texture (and when it cuts cocaine, its slight local numbing effect minics cocaine’s, helping to fool the customer). - Prince has counterfeit pills in his possession that were mostly made to look like legit vicodin (an opioid based pill). But none of princes fake vicodins contained exactly what real Vicodins do; some contained a cheaper but more dangerous opioid (fentanyl) and some had useless lidocaine mixed in or were entirely useless lidocaine. - Here’s more on topical lidicaine: https://www.mayoclinic.or...g-20072776 And the infusion version https://www.rxlist.com/xy...fects.html I posted links above about lidicaine as a cutting agent and why is doesn’t really work via oral ingestion. - Other medical pros/doctors have posted more great info in this thread about lidocaine (I’m not a medical pro). - And that’s it about lidicaine from me! Happy 4th to all the US-based people reading this. AA1slot said:

Thank you Disch for keeping your cool and remaining gracious. You may be right in that some are skipping posts such as myself. The I am smarter than you stuff and I will prove it (smh) along with the condenscending tone of a few others has gotten boring. Maybe it's for entertainment purposes or makes some feel important? Appreciate your posts.

[Edited 7/4/18 5:12am]

[Edited 7/4/18 6:43am]

I suspected as much..explains why he was feeling "Antsy"

and why there were half pills found.

He was using what he thought were controlled doses, but maybe on that day he took one "Useless Pill" + "Half a cut with Lidocaine Pill" and was loathe to take more than that,due to what happened in Moline ?

thanks DIsch for your attitude and considered words..

EDITED SPELLING

[Edited 7/4/18 6:49am]

Lovejunky said:

disch said:

Yeah I just think the fake Vicodins he had (likely acquired toward the end of his life) were kind of a mess, had varying amounts of strength including some with possibly fatal amounts of fentanyl (we can’t really say for sure because the report doesn’t say the quantity of the drugs in each tested pill) — and it was just a Russian roulette accident, like the ME and investigators said.

Then why were the pills seperated?

PennyPurple said:

PennyPurple said:

paulludvig said:

It's pretty clear that Menes doesn't know what he is talking about.

Hi Paul, nice that you could join the conversation just to insult someone.

It looks to me like Menes knows without a doubt what he's talking about.

Did U just really have the audacity to call someone out on insulting someone?

The nerve!

PennyPurple said:

disch said:

Yeah I just think the fake Vicodins he had (likely acquired toward the end of his life) were kind of a mess, had varying amounts of strength including some with possibly fatal amounts of fentanyl (we can’t really say for sure because the report doesn’t say the quantity of the drugs in each tested pill) — and it was just a Russian roulette accident, like the ME and investigators said.

Then why were the pills seperated?

Ask Menes...afterall, the mad scientist/scholar "knows" what he's talking about

ChocolateBox3121 said:

PennyPurple said:

Hi Paul, nice that you could join the conversation just to insult someone.

It looks to me like Menes knows without a doubt what he's talking about.

Did U just really have the audacity to call someone out on insulting someone?

The nerve!

Yeah, kinda like you when you only post on a thread to insult someone.

What else do you have to offer on his drug use? Was his pupils pinned when you were with him? Mood swings? Multiple women? Weight loss? Pale? Or did you think he was just taking Aleve, too?

precioux said:

PennyPurple said:

Then why were the pills seperated?

Ask Menes...afterall, the mad scientist/scholar "knows" what he's talking about

Menes has explained it to me.

Menes said:

Menes said:

I will be putting forth my "lidocaine bullshit theory " shortly, to include why it was even suggested by a doctor and the unusual synergy between an opioid and lidocaine.... and yes, it does function as an NMDA RECEPTOR ANTAGONIST ( for the "scholars" on here, please review my previous posts on that) and you will figure out exactly why it was prescribed.

In addition, you should be able to understand what happens to nuerotransmitters when withdrawals set in. I maintain that this is not a "fluke"/cutting agent combination found in those pills. Nor was it a wild guess by Dr.Schulenberg to prescribe it. Penny/BOD check orgnotes.

Stay tuned.

Correction on ltem : Clonidine was suggested by DR.SCHULENBERG NOT LIDOCAINE, which would make sense as it is an alpha agonist/ and is contra to lidocaine

OOPS! Should I still "stay tuned"????

PennyPurple said:

precioux said:

Ask Menes...afterall, the mad scientist/scholar "knows" what he's talking about

Menes has explained it to me.

Then why still ask the question publically? If you know, then why not pose the answer as a statement?

precioux said:

PennyPurple said:

Menes has explained it to me.

Then why still ask the question publically? If you know, then why not pose the answer as a statement?

Because people need to think about why these pills were seperated. They weren't all thrown together and mismatched. Why? Why seperate them?

PennyPurple said:

Camileyun said:

PennyPurple said:

Because people need to think about why these pills were seperated. They weren't all thrown together and mismatched. Why? Why seperate them?

But why lidocaine...if his goal was to reduce withdrawal symptoms, why not use something known to reduce them (clonidine) instead, and why did he say the clonidine Dr. S gave him wasn't working. Why prefer lidocaine (assuming he knew)?

I don't know. Maybe he really did know what those pills contained. Why else would they be seperated, and he told Judith Hill, that he got the 2 pills mixed up, is why the plane incident happened.

If he thought the pills were all the same, why not just take 1 bottle with him on the trip to Atlanta?