leech1 said:

disch said:

Rich people use street drugs all the time. It’s not that huge of a mystery. - They use it because getting what they want or need from a doctor is more difficult than getting it from a trusted black market supplier. There are all kinds of black market sources available to (and specifically geared toward) people like prince. - I think the idea that illegal drugs are some crapshoot that people are terrified of is what people who don’t use illegal drugs (like me) might think. leech1 said:

Shortly after he died, I also wondered why he used street drugs for the same reason you indicated, but then the longer I thought about this, it made sense in how P. seemed to handle his personal life that as much as possible must remain private. I think he couldn’t be sure he could trust any doctor or the doctor’s staff to keep this private.

I am not saying I feel that this thought process makes sense to me because I don’t think the “crap shoot” of street drugs is acceptable especially when you have the means to pay for pharmaceutical grade drugs.

I have to disagree since I have seen situations of pharmaceutical grade street drugs that were tainted and the unfortunate end results.

It doesn't matter how much you pay for illicit drugs or there supposed legitmate origin. It is a gamble buying illicit drugs.

Leech1 said:

disch said:

Thanks for this insight rebel. This particular chain of armchair detective work is getting ridiculous and off base. - I would suggest that anyone who is claiming scientific expertise (or any other highly specialized expertise) cite their sources — or at the very least explain their personal credentials that gives them firsthand knowledge.. Refusal to do either (and Menes has been one of those ref users) is pretty suspect. - And just because someone writes in a tone that attempts to mimic “expert language” doesn’t mean they know what the hell theyre talking about. Just saying.

Really disch? What are your personal credentials? In all of your posts here, I've never seen you give your credentials.

PennyPurple said:

disch said:

In science or medicine? I have absolutelg no personal credentials. Ive never claimed any. I do claim personal knowledge in aspects of the media because that’s what I work in. - That’s exactly why people should cite sources especially when they don’t have personal training in something. I mean like, links to credible articles and research, that kind of thing. - And I strongly disagree that I have never cited sources. When I myself claim something I make every effort to link to credible sources. Just in the last couple days I did so on the issue of “will touching fentanyl kill you.” If you go back and look at my posts over the years you’ll see links to many many sources, everything from government documents (cdc guidelines for autopsy reports, scientific and legal studies on fentanyl use) to many articles from everything from scholarly jour did to the nytimes. In fact I used to regularly post on these very death threads a list of credible article links I’d collected. I can post that list again if you’d like. - So saying that I don’t cite sources is not true Penny. PennyPurple said:

Really disch? What are your personal credentials? In all of your posts here, I've never seen you give your credentials.

Where did I say you didn't cite sources? I said what are your personal credentials. I didn't realize that it was a requirement on this forum that people have to list their credentials in order to give an opinion on a thread.

Most of the source in this thread is the investigative documents.

I didn't realize that a person can't have a personal opinion without having to cite the source where their opinion came from. Would you like an MRI of my brain?

Again I think we've both been pretty good at linking articles that we find and citing them.

I for one have linked to several articles that shows touching fentanyl is very dangerous. LE officers have had to receive shots of Narcan.

I really don't think you realize the hours of research people are doing, and how indepth it is getting. Just to post it here for other people to see, because some of them haven't done any research themselves.

PennyPurple said:

Rebeljuice said:

Menes said:

Let's just keep in mind a few things..

That Prince was not in unbearable pain to speak of as recorded by Dr. Schulenberg.

There are no significant heatlh/terminal issues.

He is still dosing/feeding (albeit) more selectively for (7) days after Moline .

That Prince had hydrocodone in his system when visiting Dr.Schulenberg. Even if he had hydrocodone in his system in Moline, it would have already metabolized. This tells me that this is a recent feeding.

The pills that he is dosing from are located @ PP after the Moline incident.

The pills are separated and batched according to type and usage.

The Hydrocodone pills do not contain an antagonist( an anti withdrawal agent) .

The fentanyl batches contains and anti withdrawal agent, specifically, lidocaine. There are no pure fentanyl pills found(?). There are pills that contain only lidocaine/hydrcodone.

Each pill is accounted for/ tested by a scientist . Results show that the contents and shape are generally consistent in each batch.

That lidcoaine is not generally used as a cutting agent by "street pharma" standards.

That Prince understood that he was lying to both doctors when prompted for a response about what he was taking.

That Prince was "mixing" and thereby regulating usage.

That Prince was already going thru withdrawals while driving home with Kirk. (this quantifies when he may have last fed on the hydro).

That Prince opted to take fentanyl in large doses instead of more hydrocodone that night.

Lidocaine is a local anesthetic. It basically stops nerves from sending pain signals to the brain. It does not have anything to do with the receptors that opioids attach themselves to. It is also not used for taking the edge off withdrawals from opioids.

Lidocaine is neither an antagonist or agonist in this respect.

The most probable reason that Lidocaine is present in any street drug is because it is cheap and makes for a good dilutant or adulterant. It's most commonly cut into cocaine and heroin. Because of it's anesthetic properties, when cocaine users rub it on their gums it enhances the numbness that the cocaine also produces. this gives the impression that the user is buying top quality charly when in fact it is cut to shit with Lidocaine that does not produce any real high of any sort.

In the case of these pills that Prince had, it most certainly was nothing more than a cheap cutting agent. Lidocaine does not actually come in pill form in its legal guise. There is no purpose in ingesting it. If anything it can fuck with your heart if you take too much. For the properties of Lidocaine to have any effect on the user, it is usually injected directly into the area of pain or sprayed on the skin. Its effects are local and is not used for widespread or general pain.

Lidocaine is also not listed as an illigal substance with the World Anti Doping Agency.

Wherever you are going with the Menes, this is the wrong track and is sending you down a rabbit hole that does not need investigating.

Edit to add: An antagonist is not an anti withdrawal agent. An antaginist attaches itself to the opioid receptors and blocks the receptor which stops the body from responding to opioids. They actually induce withdrawals. but as I said above, Lidocaine is not one of these.

[Edited 6/30/18 3:44am]

Im glad you responded, because you see, you have no access to published studies and clincal trials.

You attacked me a few posts ago by spewing a most inflammatory personal post and the mods did nothing to impede your incessant babbling about me as a person. I let that slide bcasue I didnt want to shut the thread down.

My response today will be two fold for you. Prepare your ass for my reprisals.

1. I don't live in my mother's basement as you have assumed. I work in a neuro-science lab figuring out things you would not be able to understand. Perhaps you are aware of the generic broad based term "genetics", but I would bet all of my earnings that you know nothing of it. You have not one scintilla of biological intellect that is worthy of review. That is to say, that you are genetically limited and will always be. Have you published anything of record?

2. Your claim to fame on this board is that you are an addict(?) This is neither challenging, nor is it an accomplishment I would wish to obtain one day. Your brain will always function primarily as a defense shield, absorbing nothing but rehashed transmissions that feed your existence. It has been battered and bruised, and quite frankly, permanently damaged. As any scholarly person will tell you, your brain is now wired to be beyond reproach, because you see, you are essentially what the drug has made you.

3. In re: lidocaine; Do you know what an NMDA receptor is? Probably not.

Have you ever read any studies done with lidocaine and its actions on NMDA receptors? Do you know why the study was done? Do you know why Dr. Schulenberg prescribed it for withdrawals? Do you believe Prince was in pain and warranted the use of fentanyl? What roll does lidocaine play in inhibiting sodium channels? What roll does fentanyl play in reducing sodium channels?


Can you access a study? Probably not. Im gonna stop there for now because there's so much more I will give you.

Here are some verfied links AS OPPOSED TO YOUR THOUGHTS.

The use of NMDA-receptor antagonists in the treatment of chronic pain.

Lidocaine Infusion for Chronic Pain in Opioid Dependent Patients ...

The Mu-Opioid Receptor and the NMDA Receptor ... - NCBI - NIH

Antinociception - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

The Neurobiology of Opioid Dependence: Implications for Treatment

We will discuss the role of lidacaine, sodium channels and pain after this weekend.

[Edited 6/30/18 11:07am]

Menes said:

disch said:

Which of these articles that you post identify lidocaine as an opioid antagonist specifically? I’ve skimmed through some (theyre among the first things that come up in basic google searches) and I can’t find that specific description. - I don’t have the documents in front of me but regarding the drugs dr s prescribed: he prescribed 3 drugs to ease physical complaints — such as nausea and agitation — that can occur during withdrawal (and for other reasons too). I do not recall him stating that he was presribimg an antagonist (such as the naloxone used in moline). - I’m also not understanding the theory that prince would work to concoct a custom pill containing both an opioid and an opioid antagonist (that would “cancel out” the effect if the opioid). Can you exaplain what the specific goal of a pill like that would be? - Frankly, a scientist, which you claim you are, should be happy and rigorous about curing sources, not act indignant and annoyed about it. Menes said:

Im glad you responded, because you see, you have no access to published studies and clincal trials.

You attacked me a few posts ago by spewing a most inflammatory personal post and the mods did nothing to impede your incessant babbling about me as a person. I let that slide bcasue I didnt want to shut the thread down.

My response today will be two fold for you. Prepare your ass for my reprisals.

1. I don't live in my mother's basement as you have assumed. I work in a neuro-science lab figuring out things you would not be able to understand. Perhaps you are aware of the generic broad based term "genetics", but I would bet all of my earnings that you know nothing of it. You have not one scintilla of biological intellect that is worthy of review. That is to say, that you are genetically limited and will always be. Have you published anything of record?

2. Your claim to fame on this board is that you are an addict(?) This is neither challenging, nor is it an accomplishment I would wish to obtain one day. Your brain will always function primarily as a defense shield, absorbing nothing but rehashed transmissions that feed your existence. It has been battered and bruised, and quite frankly, permanently damaged. As any scholarly person will tell you, your brain is now wired to be beyond reproach, because you see, you are essentially what the drug has made you.

3. In re: lidocaine; Do you know what an NMDA receptor is? Probably not.

Have you ever read any studies done with lidocaine and its actions on NMDA receptors? Do you know why the study was done? Do you know why Dr. Schulenberg prescribed it for withdrawals? Do you believe Prince was in pain and warranted the use of fentanyl? What roll does lidocaine play in inhibiting sodium channels? What roll does fentanyl play in reducing sodium channels?


Can you access a study? Probably not. Im gonna stop there for now because there's so much more I will give you.

Here are some verfied links AS OPPOSED TO YOUR THOUGHTS.

The use of NMDA-receptor antagonists in the treatment of chronic pain.

Lidocaine Infusion for Chronic Pain in Opioid Dependent Patients ...

The Mu-Opioid Receptor and the NMDA Receptor ... - NCBI - NIH

Antinociception - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

The Neurobiology of Opioid Dependence: Implications for Treatment

We will discuss the role of lidacaine, sodium channels and pain after this weekend.

[Edited 6/30/18 11:07am]

[Edited 6/30/18 11:48am]

You are so limited in your "critical response" . We can't help but laugh reading your post. See you Monday ,buddy.

disch said:

Which of these articles that you post identify lidocaine as an opioid antagonist specifically? I’ve skimmed through some (theyre among the first things that come up in basic google searches) and I can’t find that specific description. - I don’t have the documents in front of me but regarding the drugs dr s prescribed: he prescribed 3 drugs to ease physical complaints — such as nausea and agitation — that can occur during withdrawal (and for other reasons too). I do not recall him stating that he was presribimg an antagonist (such as the naloxone used in moline). - I’m also not understanding the theory that prince would work to concoct a custom pill containing both an opioid and an opioid antagonist (that would “cancel out” the effect if the opioid). Can you exaplain what the specific goal of a pill like that would be? - Frankly, a scientist, which you claim you are, should be happy and rigorous about curing sources, not act indignant and annoyed about it. Menes said:

Im glad you responded, because you see, you have no access to published studies and clincal trials.

You attacked me a few posts ago by spewing a most inflammatory personal post and the mods did nothing to impede your incessant babbling about me as a person. I let that slide bcasue I didnt want to shut the thread down.

My response today will be two fold for you. Prepare your ass for my reprisals.

1. I don't live in my mother's basement as you have assumed. I work in a neuro-science lab figuring out things you would not be able to understand. Perhaps you are aware of the generic broad based term "genetics", but I would bet all of my earnings that you know nothing of it. You have not one scintilla of biological intellect that is worthy of review. That is to say, that you are genetically limited and will always be. Have you published anything of record?

2. Your claim to fame on this board is that you are an addict(?) This is neither challenging, nor is it an accomplishment I would wish to obtain one day. Your brain will always function primarily as a defense shield, absorbing nothing but rehashed transmissions that feed your existence. It has been battered and bruised, and quite frankly, permanently damaged. As any scholarly person will tell you, your brain is now wired to be beyond reproach, because you see, you are essentially what the drug has made you.

3. In re: lidocaine; Do you know what an NMDA receptor is? Probably not.

Have you ever read any studies done with lidocaine and its actions on NMDA receptors? Do you know why the study was done? Do you know why Dr. Schulenberg prescribed it for withdrawals? Do you believe Prince was in pain and warranted the use of fentanyl? What roll does lidocaine play in inhibiting sodium channels? What roll does fentanyl play in reducing sodium channels?


Can you access a study? Probably not. Im gonna stop there for now because there's so much more I will give you.

Here are some verfied links AS OPPOSED TO YOUR THOUGHTS.

The use of NMDA-receptor antagonists in the treatment of chronic pain.

Lidocaine Infusion for Chronic Pain in Opioid Dependent Patients ...

The Mu-Opioid Receptor and the NMDA Receptor ... - NCBI - NIH

Antinociception - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

The Neurobiology of Opioid Dependence: Implications for Treatment

We will discuss the role of lidacaine, sodium channels and pain after this weekend.

[Edited 6/30/18 11:07am]

[Edited 6/30/18 11:48am]

You are so limited in your "critical response" . We can't help but laugh reading your post. See you Monday ,buddy.

disch said:

Thanks got the thougtful response! It’s great that we have a knowledgeable scientist here so open to sharing his expertise and interested in engaging with others to explain what they have wrong. - Anyway, back to the subject: lidocaine is not an opioid antagonist. None of the articles Menes listed say that. Furthermore it does not make sense that prince would concoct a custom pill containing both an opioid (agonist) and an opioid antagonist. The whole purpose of the antagonist is to block the effect of the agonist. - Here is list of opioid antagonists as itemized in a reputable publication: https://www.sciencedirect...ntagonists - And I’m happy to hear what I have wrong here, with evidence. Insulting and dismissing myself and others isn’t persuasive. And a scientist should know what it takes to prove something. Menes said:

[Edited 6/30/18 11:48am]

You are so limited in your "critical response" . We can't help but laugh reading your post. See you Monday ,buddy.

[Edited 6/30/18 12:06pm]

Yes, I am a "knowledgeable scientist' ( what a stupid term) ! What about you? What do you do for a living? You have very limited knowledge of how an NDMA receptor is truly affected by a pain blocking chemical component

disch said:

Thanks got the thougtful response! It’s great that we have a knowledgeable scientist here so open to sharing his expertise and interested in engaging with others to explain what they have wrong. - Anyway, back to the subject: lidocaine is not an opioid antagonist. None of the articles Menes listed say that. Furthermore it does not make sense that prince would concoct a custom pill containing both an opioid (agonist) and an opioid antagonist. The whole purpose of the antagonist is to block the effect of the agonist. - Here is list of opioid antagonists as itemized in a reputable publication: https://www.sciencedirect...ntagonists - And I’m happy to hear what I have wrong here, with evidence. Insulting and dismissing myself and others isn’t persuasive. And a scientist should know what it takes to prove something. Menes said:

[Edited 6/30/18 11:48am]

You are so limited in your "critical response" . We can't help but laugh reading your post. See you Monday ,buddy.

[Edited 6/30/18 12:06pm]

Disch.....And this is why most people don't want their personal credentials out there. And now that you are being told what his profession is, you still have to insult said profession.

[Edited 6/30/18 12:27pm]

Menes said:

PennyPurple said:

prince didnt handle all aspects of his life as he did with his music....

luvsexy4all said:

prince didnt handle all aspects of his life as he did with his music....

He controlled all aspects of his life and music.

PennyPurple said:

luvsexy4all said:

prince didnt handle all aspects of his life as he did with his music....

He controlled all aspects of his life and music.

co-sign re this recent post and your defense of Menes as a scientist who should be respected for his willingness to wade into the total fiasco that is the Death of Prince Saga. I am not a scientist, but I could follow what he was saying quite easily...

Bodhi, it's not a question of if one can follow it. It's that I believe, based on reading evidence including the links he himself posted, that Menes is presenting incorrect information. (It's fine he's "wading in." In my view it's not OK to for him to say things things like this to people who simply state that he appears to have his facts wrong: "Your brain will always function primarily as a defense shield, absorbing nothing but rehashed transmissions that feed your existence. It has been battered and bruised, and quite frankly, permanently damaged" and "You are so limited in your "critical response" . We can't help but laugh reading your post.")

-

Anyway, here are some things he's stated that are questionable to me

-

1. The assertion that lidocaine is an opioid antagonist (i.e., blocks the effect of opioid by binding to the receptors in the brain that opioids would normally impact). Menes said "Your key clue is understanding the relationship between an agonist( fentanyl ) and an antagonist /cutting agent such as (lidocaine)."

-

I can find no documentation that describes lidocaine (or similar local anesthetics) as an opioid antagonist. Here is a list of opioid antagonists, an example fof which is naloxone which was used to bring prince out of his moline OD: https://www.drugbank.ca/c...BCAT000935

-

Also, I can find nothing indicating that lidocaine has any notable systemic effect when ingested in pill form. I can only find information about topical use or sometimes direct infusion.

-

2. The conflation of the term "cutting agent" with "antagonist" (he posted "you can use other cutting agents(antagonist) such as Buprenorphine...").

-

"Cutting agents" in illegal drugs are not normally antagonists of the primary drugs (i.e., substances that would "cancel out" the effect of the primary drug). Cutting agents are cheap substances that bulk up the main drugs to increase manufacturer profits. Fentanyl itself is often a cutting agent for more expensive opioids (like heroin). Here's one of the several places I learned about cutting agents: https://sunrisehouse.com/...facturing/

-

I can find no documentation about buprenorphine ever used as a cutting agent with illegal opioids, one reason being that it's not cheaply available in bulk.

-

3. The assertion that Dr S prescribed lidocaine to Prince, and he did so to ease opioid withdrawal. (Quoting Menes in post 517: "Do you know why Dr. Schulenberg prescribed [lidocaine] for withdrawals?")

-

On page 58 of the investigation files, Dr S says that the day prior to his death, he prescribed Prince Clonidine, Hydroxyzine, and valium. There's no mention of lidocaine.

-

Futhermore, from what I can tell lidocaine would only ever be prescribed directly to a patient as a topical treatment such as an ointment (for local pain relief). Lidocaine is not produced (legally) in pill form.

-

The drugs Dr S did prescribe are not opioid antagonists; they simply help relieve the symptoms that opioid withdrawal can cause, such as anxiety.

-

The articles menes linked, when asked a few times about his sources, have nothing to do lidocaine being an opioid antagonist, cutting agent, or opioid-withdrawal treatment. For example, one page briefly summarizes an ongoing study about if lidocaine can be an alternative pain reliever in some opioid patients. It doesn't say if it can, however, because the study doesn't even end until Dec 2018.

-

Look, lidocaine is a really cheap cutting agent. The reason, I think, some pills had different amounts and some just lidocaine was because the supplier was sloppy and/or ripping off the customer (by throwing in some useless lidocaine-only pills into the mix).

-

Now, I don't think anything I've written is an "attack" on Menes that he needs to be "defended" from. If people are posting here, they should be fine with engaging in civil discussion without calling anyone who quesions them "brain damaged" or saying that they are "so limited" and should be "laughed at."

Bodhitheblackdog said:

PennyPurple said:

He controlled all aspects of his life and music.

co-sign re this recent post and your defense of Menes as a scientist who should be respected for his willingness to wade into the total fiasco that is the Death of Prince Saga. I am not a scientist, but I could follow what he was saying quite easily...

[Edited 6/30/18 16:26pm]

Though I said I would not, I have followed this thread for the last few days of posts and fully AGREE with Rebel and Disch. All posters are supposed to cite their sources. It is even more imperative when it involves complex pharmacological/pathophysiological issues. Many here just do not have the medical chops to know when they are being led down a path with no basis. I have never heard of Lidocaine being used for withdrawal.

I have given IV Lidocaine to patients with arrhythmias (irregular heart beats) or have applied it locally, applied it in patch form etc. Derivitives of it can be used in anesthesia to provide a nerve block to a pariticular area.

It is imperative folks on this thread a more sophisticated approach.

Please thank Disch and Rebel for getting this thread back on the proper track.

peggyon said:

Though I said I would not, I have followed this thread for the last few days of posts and fully AGREE with Rebel and Disch. All posters are supposed to cite their sources. It is even more imperative when it involves complex pharmacological/pathophysiological issues. Many here just do not have the medical chops to know when they are being led down a path with no basis. I have never heard of Lidocaine being used for withdrawal.

I have given IV Lidocaine to patients with arrhythmias (irregular heart beats) or have applied it locally, applied it in patch form etc. Derivitives of it can be used in anesthesia to provide a nerve block to a pariticular area.

It is imperative folks on this thread a more sophisticated approach.

Please thank Disch and Rebel for getting this thread back on the proper track.

This thread was never off track.

If you've researched the case and have a better idea of what went on, then please do post it. But how would you cite a source, if it was just your idea of what happened?

I don't think people here need 'medical chops' to understand what Menes is saying, and have the common sense to know if they are being led down a path.

I just think people don't like what menes is pointing out, that he was a longtime drug user and may have had his pills custom made. You don't like it, so several of you are nitpicking demanding to know peoples professions, links, etc. Well Peggy where is your link for your post?

[Edited 6/30/18 15:52pm]

I have 30+ years experience with the administration of Lidocaine as per mentioned in my last post.And I have worked extensively with patients in withdrawal. We get 3-4 daily in the ED. I see what the MD's prescribe; The medications offered are Hydroxine, Clonidine, sometimes short-term benzos, not Lidocaine.

Penny, I know you mean well but I can tell you are naive medically.

Menes is very bright as well but tends to come up with ideas that are far-fetched and somewhat fastastical.

Please be more rigorous in your research/statements.

I have no problem with the idea that he was a long-term drug user; I think that's likely true, though the use may have waxed and waned.

-

The idea that the counterfeit pills he had with him at his death were custom-made to his exact specs? No, that makes no sense to me for a variety of reasons, and what Menes has tried to explain as the "scientific" basis of that conclusion does not hold together.

-

Wanting links isn't "nitpicking." I provided a whole bunch of them in my post just above, btw.

-

What Peggy wrote aligns with the stuff I've read myself about how lidocaine is used, some of which is linked in my post above.

PennyPurple said:

peggyon said:

Though I said I would not, I have followed this thread for the last few days of posts and fully AGREE with Rebel and Disch. All posters are supposed to cite their sources. It is even more imperative when it involves complex pharmacological/pathophysiological issues. Many here just do not have the medical chops to know when they are being led down a path with no basis. I have never heard of Lidocaine being used for withdrawal.

I have given IV Lidocaine to patients with arrhythmias (irregular heart beats) or have applied it locally, applied it in patch form etc. Derivitives of it can be used in anesthesia to provide a nerve block to a pariticular area.

It is imperative folks on this thread a more sophisticated approach.

Please thank Disch and Rebel for getting this thread back on the proper track.

This thread was never off track.

If you've researched the case and have a better idea of what went on, then please do post it. But how would you cite a source, if it was just your idea of what happened?

I don't think people here need 'medical chops' to understand what Menes is saying, and have the common sense to know if they are being led down a path.

I just think people don't like what menes is pointing out, that he was a longtime drug user and may have had his pills custom made. You don't like it, so several of you are nitpicking demanding to know peoples professions, links, etc. Well Peggy where is your link for your post?

[Edited 6/30/18 15:52pm]

[Edited 6/30/18 16:08pm]

PennyPurple said:

peggyon said:

Though I said I would not, I have followed this thread for the last few days of posts and fully AGREE with Rebel and Disch. All posters are supposed to cite their sources. It is even more imperative when it involves complex pharmacological/pathophysiological issues. Many here just do not have the medical chops to know when they are being led down a path with no basis. I have never heard of Lidocaine being used for withdrawal.

I have given IV Lidocaine to patients with arrhythmias (irregular heart beats) or have applied it locally, applied it in patch form etc. Derivitives of it can be used in anesthesia to provide a nerve block to a pariticular area.

It is imperative folks on this thread a more sophisticated approach.

Please thank Disch and Rebel for getting this thread back on the proper track.

This thread was never off track.

If you've researched the case and have a better idea of what went on, then please do post it. But how would you cite a source, if it was just your idea of what happened?

I don't think people here need 'medical chops' to understand what Menes is saying, and have the common sense to know if they are being led down a path.

I just think people don't like what menes is pointing out, that he was a longtime drug user and may have had his pills custom made. You don't like it, so several of you are nitpicking demanding to know peoples professions, links, etc. Well Peggy where is your link for your post?

[Edited 6/30/18 15:52pm]

Bodhitheblackdog said:

PennyPurple said:

This thread was never off track.

If you've researched the case and have a better idea of what went on, then please do post it. But how would you cite a source, if it was just your idea of what happened?

I don't think people here need 'medical chops' to understand what Menes is saying, and have the common sense to know if they are being led down a path.

I just think people don't like what menes is pointing out, that he was a longtime drug user and may have had his pills custom made. You don't like it, so several of you are nitpicking demanding to know peoples professions, links, etc. Well Peggy where is your link for your post?

[Edited 6/30/18 15:52pm]

I have worked with Lidocaine for 30+ years;my previous post delineates this. I currently work in the ED where there are 3-4 patients who come in for opiate withdrawal daily; the meds ordered are Clonidine, Hydroxizine and sometimes short-term benzos, not Lidocaine.

We are all stuggling for answers and I do appreciate all of the work you have put into this thread, though it is imperative that posters "ideas" be accurate and vetted.

I think most of us think he was a long-time user (I do) but then leap-frogging into how Lidocaine somehow interacts with withdrawal process is not accurate. Each fact builds on another, so it all has to be right.

I have read the reports several times and feel I comprehend them well.

Personally, I think it best that posters offer ideas to the general org. community for fact-checking.

Personal ideas (IMO) should not be offered as proclamations until vetted by the larger community, which is what Rebel, Disch and I did. We have to be patient and do this right.

peggyon said:

I have 30+ years experience with the administration of Lidocaine as per mentioned in my last post.And I have worked extensively with patients in withdrawal. We get 3-4 daily in the ED. I see what the MD's prescribe; The medications offered are Hydroxine, Clonidine, sometimes short-term benzos, not Lidocaine.

Penny, I know you mean well but I can tell you are naive medically.

Menes is very bright as well but tends to come up with ideas that are far-fetched and somewhat fastastical.

Please be more rigorous in your research/statements.

And menes stated he is a scientist, why is there doubt? You stated your profession he stated his.

You think I am naive medically? How did you make your determination?

For what it's worth, I work with lidocaine 5 days a week, for the past 31 years, you see I work at a dental office, which includes among many things, assisting the Dentist, so yes I assist in dental surgeries, applying lidocaine gel at the point of the injection of lidocaine (no I don't inject). So please tell me how medically naive I am again?

Be more rigorous in our research/statements? How much more rigorous do you need. Menes writes very detailed posts. I have posted pages and pages of investigative statements. Several of us have spent countless hours on researching. How about you Peggy? I see you replying to those of us who have posted our research, but where is your research and where is your conclusion based on the research that you have done, not what our research has showed, but yours?

I can't believe as much detail as Menes has provided that someone would make a comment to be 'more rigourous in your research/statements.'

peggyon said:

Though I said I would not, I have followed this thread for the last few days of posts and fully AGREE with Rebel and Disch. All posters are supposed to cite their sources. It is even more imperative when it involves complex pharmacological/pathophysiological issues. Many here just do not have the medical chops to know when they are being led down a path with no basis. I have never heard of Lidocaine being used for withdrawal.

I have given IV Lidocaine to patients with arrhythmias (irregular heart beats) or have applied it locally, applied it in patch form etc. Derivitives of it can be used in anesthesia to provide a nerve block to a pariticular area.

It is imperative folks on this thread a more sophisticated approach.

Please thank Disch and Rebel for getting this thread back on the proper track.

Yes, thanks Disch and Rebel for getting it back on track. No need to insult people or get an attitude if they happen to have a different opinion. I thought Laura must be back. Please don't say if you don't like what is going on in this thread, don't read the thread; that is for 12 year olds. Unless one was privy to or a part of the actual investigation with LE and DEA...it appears to be speculation on what Prince actually did and we have been doing that for over two years and counting.

[Edited 6/30/18 16:46pm]

peggyon said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

I have worked with Lidocaine for 30+ years;my previous post delineates this. I currently work in the ED where there are 3-4 patients who come in for opiate withdrawal daily; the meds ordered are Clonidine, Hydroxizine and sometimes short-term benzos, not Lidocaine.

We are all stuggling for answers and I do appreciate all of the work you have put into this thread, though it is imperative that posters "ideas" be accurate and vetted.

I think most of us think he was a long-time user (I do) but then leap-frogging into how Lidocaine somehow interacts with withdrawal process is not accurate. Each fact builds on another, so it all has to be right.

I have read the reports several times and feel I comprehend them well.

Personally, I think it best that posters offer ideas to the general org. community for fact-checking.

Personal ideas (IMO) should not be offered as proclamations until vetted by the larger community, which is what Rebel, Disch and I did. We have to be patient and do this right.

Am I understanding you correctly? my "personal ideas" need to be approved of or validated by the Prince.Org. thought police??? Your statement is probably THE most offensive thing I have ever read on a discussion board anywhere at any time: arrogant, ignorant, disrespectful to others....and deeply, aggressively hostile to opinions you may not share at the moment.

Menes' posts are long/detailed, but that doesn't mean they're factually correct (his repeated assertions that Dr S prescribed Prince lidocaine for opioid withdrawal is just one obvious example), or that he's provided persuasive sources. He provided 4 links, which I read but did not actually support what he was saying.

-

He also didn't state he was a scientist, at least not recently; he stated that he works in a lab, which is not the same thing. (Plus just claiming you're in a profesion doesn't make everything you say automatically exempt from fact-checking.)

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On another note: I did some poking around to see what i could find about the effect of lidocaine ingested orally (it's normally topical or an infusion, from what I understand), because I was curious if a lidocaine pill would have any potentially desireable effect at all.

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I found this, which basically says that wouldn't work if ingested orally which is why it isn't administered that way: "Lidocaine shows high first pass metabolism therefore not suitable for oral administration....Due to this hepatic clearance very less amount of drug is available in the blood which is not sufficient to produce therapeutic response. Hence lidocaine can be given by IV infusion": https://egpat.com/questio...oral-route

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So for those who feel that lidocaine has some sort of functional connection to opioids, I would think you'd want to look into if lidocaine's effect is altered by the administration. Oral ingestion isn't a method used in scientific studies of lidocaine, from what I can tell.

PennyPurple said:

peggyon said:

I have 30+ years experience with the administration of Lidocaine as per mentioned in my last post.And I have worked extensively with patients in withdrawal. We get 3-4 daily in the ED. I see what the MD's prescribe; The medications offered are Hydroxine, Clonidine, sometimes short-term benzos, not Lidocaine.

Penny, I know you mean well but I can tell you are naive medically.

Menes is very bright as well but tends to come up with ideas that are far-fetched and somewhat fastastical.

Please be more rigorous in your research/statements.

And menes stated he is a scientist, why is there doubt? You stated your profession he stated his.

You think I am naive medically? How did you make your determination?

For what it's worth, I work with lidocaine 5 days a week, for the past 31 years, you see I work at a dental office, which includes among many things, assisting the Dentist, so yes I assist in dental surgeries, applying lidocaine gel at the point of the injection of lidocaine (no I don't inject). So please tell me how medically naive I am again?

Be more rigorous in our research/statements? How much more rigorous do you need. Menes writes very detailed posts. I have posted pages and pages of investigative statements. Several of us have spent countless hours on researching. How about you Peggy? I see you replying to those of us who have posted our research, but where is your research and where is your conclusion based on the research that you have done, not what our research has showed, but yours?

I can't believe as much detail as Menes has provided that someone would make a comment to be 'more rigourous in your research/statements.'

[Edited 6/30/18 17:14pm]

Bodhi -- she said "personal ideas" should not be "offered as proclamations," not that they should not be offered at all. I took that to mean that opinions and theories should be shared as such but one should simply avoid presenting something as definitive fact if it is in reality not a definitive fact. That seems fair to me.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

peggyon said:

I have worked with Lidocaine for 30+ years;my previous post delineates this. I currently work in the ED where there are 3-4 patients who come in for opiate withdrawal daily; the meds ordered are Clonidine, Hydroxizine and sometimes short-term benzos, not Lidocaine.

We are all stuggling for answers and I do appreciate all of the work you have put into this thread, though it is imperative that posters "ideas" be accurate and vetted.

I think most of us think he was a long-time user (I do) but then leap-frogging into how Lidocaine somehow interacts with withdrawal process is not accurate. Each fact builds on another, so it all has to be right.

I have read the reports several times and feel I comprehend them well.

Personally, I think it best that posters offer ideas to the general org. community for fact-checking.

Personal ideas (IMO) should not be offered as proclamations until vetted by the larger community, which is what Rebel, Disch and I did. We have to be patient and do this right.

Am I understanding you correctly? my "personal ideas" need to be approved of or validated by the Prince.Org. thought police??? Your statement is probably THE most offensive thing I have ever read on a discussion board anywhere at any time: arrogant, ignorant, disrespectful to others....and deeply, aggressively hostile to opinions you may not share at the moment.