Rebeljuice said:

Can I just say that no matter how toxic the pill, it is not possible to swallow it and then suddenly die. It can take anything from 15 to 30 minutes for the most soluble and easily metabolized pills to take effect. Even Fentanyl lozengers which are digested both through the membranes in the mouth and through the digestive system do not take effect for up to an hour (depending on stomach contents, metabolism etc). So all those folks working on the logic that the pills must have been close to the elevator are incorrect. he could have taken the pill, wandered downstairs to get something, had a cup of tea and then as the effects were kicking in decided to head back upstairs to his bedroom.

It is true that the high levels of fentanyl would mean the transition from feeling normal to being in deep shit would be very rapid, but the pill still needs to go through the digestive system and then get metabolized in the liver before that sudden onset.

Prince took that pill and had a little bit of time to do stuff before the shit hit the fan. Once the fent kicked in, I doubt he had much time to even consider what was happening if the levels of fent are to be believed. But he did have time to walk around whilst it was being digested.

Very interesting Rebeljuice. This whole thing is very convoluted, isn't it - I can't help thinking that there is more to the story and that all the details weren't necessarily released in the reports. The only thing I recall is that the ME noted extremely high levels of fentanyl causing toxicity and death. Here's something I found:

-

What Happens During a Fentanyl Overdose

(Note: this article is about injected fentanyl, so the effect may be different for ingested pills). With ingested pills, there would also be an enhanced effect from any other opiates already in the system.

“One of the major characteristics that the respondents described was the speed of a fentanyl overdose: Seventy-five percent of the respondents said that the symptoms occurred within seconds to minutes.

But with fentanyl, the same respondent said that the effect is immediate: "I would say you notice it [a fentanyl overdose] as soon as they are done [injecting the fentanyl]. They don't even have time to pull the needle out [of their body] and they're on the ground." “The researchers asked the respondents to describe what happened during a suspected fentanyl overdose. The most common characteristic, described in 20 percent of the cases, was that the person's lips immediately turned blue, followed by gurgling sounds with breathing (16 percent of the cases), stiffening of the body or seizure-like activity (13 percent), foaming at the mouth (6 percent) and confusion or strange behavior before the person became unresponsive (6 percent), according to the report.”

-

Fentanyl overdoses can be reversed with the same antidote that is used to treat other opioid overdoses — a drug called naloxone, which is sold under the brand name Narcan. In the report, in 83 percent of the cases when naloxone was used, one dose was not sufficient. Instead, the respondents said that two or more doses of the antidote were needed to revive the person who had overdosed, according to the report.”

-

From LiveScience, April 2017. Copyright © 2018 All Rights Reserved.

-

Being a bit naïve with respect to drugs, I always wonder why producers/dealers of these fentanyl pills wouldn’t want to have their ‘customers’ return for more. A dead customer isn’t going to be a repeat buyer. They are a form of ‘businessman’, no? It doesn’t make any sense that people are dying from one pill and yet it’s happening every day throughout N. America.

PennyPurple said:

Menes said:

I think we can put that "he didn't know" /"it was just one pill" theory to bed now. This is not a new batch that was fetched with the new and improved "deadly"fentanyl in it. He is feeding off of the same batch, people. Sorry, so far, I see know evidence of ignorance at work here.

What was in the Aleve bottle? How did that test?

I think the Aleve only had lidocaine. They did not contain fentanyl. The Bayer had fentanyl.

Rebeljuice said:

Can I just say that no matter how toxic the pill, it is not possible to swallow it and then suddenly die. It can take anything from 15 to 30 minutes for the most soluble and easily metabolized pills to take effect. Even Fentanyl lozengers which are digested both through the membranes in the mouth and through the digestive system do not take effect for up to an hour (depending on stomach contents, metabolism etc). So all those folks working on the logic that the pills must have been close to the elevator are incorrect. he could have taken the pill, wandered downstairs to get something, had a cup of tea and then as the effects were kicking in decided to head back upstairs to his bedroom.

It is true that the high levels of fentanyl would mean the transition from feeling normal to being in deep shit would be very rapid, but the pill still needs to go through the digestive system and then get metabolized in the liver before that sudden onset.

Prince took that pill and had a little bit of time to do stuff before the shit hit the fan. Once the fent kicked in, I doubt he had much time to even consider what was happening if the levels of fent are to be believed. But he did have time to walk around whilst it was being digested.

I was reading on this last night. I am in total agreement with your post. I am sure since the pills were illegal, that the fentanyl amount in the pills varied. I would not be surprised if that variance had a steep value.

Rebeljuice said:

Can I just say that no matter how toxic the pill, it is not possible to swallow it and then suddenly die. It can take anything from 15 to 30 minutes for the most soluble and easily metabolized pills to take effect. Even Fentanyl lozengers which are digested both through the membranes in the mouth and through the digestive system do not take effect for up to an hour (depending on stomach contents, metabolism etc). So all those folks working on the logic that the pills must have been close to the elevator are incorrect. he could have taken the pill, wandered downstairs to get something, had a cup of tea and then as the effects were kicking in decided to head back upstairs to his bedroom.

It is true that the high levels of fentanyl would mean the transition from feeling normal to being in deep shit would be very rapid, but the pill still needs to go through the digestive system and then get metabolized in the liver before that sudden onset.

Prince took that pill and had a little bit of time to do stuff before the shit hit the fan. Once the fent kicked in, I doubt he had much time to even consider what was happening if the levels of fent are to be believed. But he did have time to walk around whilst it was being digested.

I have said from the beginning (and still fervently believe) that he was in that elevator because he knew something was wrong and was going for help. It also explains the inside-out clothing (he dressed in a hurry because it was cold and he couldn't run out in his underwear).

MMJas said:

PennyPurple said:

Well KJ did tell the LE officer that he was reaching out to people I assume his past associates and nobody would tell him anything. And we have heard rumors that frantic phone calls were being made to figure out how to handle this. All they were wanting was guidance, people weren't willing to admit he had a problem. We know they reached out to Hazelton. We know KJ tried to help him by taking him to his own Dr.

I'm kinda leaning towards it kinda took KJ by surprise when he started to put it all together after Moline. By KJ's own comments he knew P had a problem with this before.

Meron, didn't know anything, about him using or his past history, until they started trying to get P help. I don't want to insult the girl, so I'll just leave it at that.

Now the next question is how did he get them? By the looks of the cars in the garage he didn't take one of them out. He rode his bike, but like Menes said after Moline all eyes were on him, so I agree he already had those pills.

If we can find out what was in the Aleve bottle and if none of those had fentanyl, then he did seperate them and he did know about the fentanyl.

That's my opinion for a while now. See reply #143:

"Re Prince's comment to JH about sleeping a lot lately, or more than usual, and nearly falling sleep on stage at some point, and dreamig a lot, etc, which was very unusual for him (the sleep), and the dozing off on the plane, etc:

Was reading that Rolling Stone interview (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/music-fentanyl-opioid-crisis-drug-killed-prince-tom-petty-w521674) and came across this comment, which suddenly made a lot of sense:

*

"On tour in Florida a few years ago, singer-songwriter Todd Snider was looking for OxyContin to help with shoulder and back pain. The dealer didn’t have any, but did give him a fentanyl patch and lollipop. Snider immediately felt the difference. “All the other drugs wake me up,” he says, “but this one knocked me out.” He vowed to never use it again. “I really did get lucky,” he says. “I dodged that one.”

Perhaps Prince WAS taking fentanyl already for a while, but in small doses, and did not know it, cause they were illegal drugs laced with the substance."

I agree too. If the pills were not separated by content, then I would be more inclined to think of this as an "accident". I will be the first one to admit, I have been all over the place on why this happened. But as I read more and look into the files, I do not believe there was cancer or underlying issue. I never thought Prince was murdered or the conspiracy angle.

I was reading on fentanyl, hydrocodone and hydromorphone side effects. Depression, sleep, numbness in the hands (maybe legs), vomitting, constipation, etc. These are all the symptons Prince either discussed with Dr. S (aside from the depression and sleep).

Another thing that has been in my head, during Moline, Prince was quiet during the questioning, soft spoken, etc. WHen the doctor asked about suicide, Prince became very defiant in answering the question. His demeanor was 180. It may be nothing, just me looking into something that is not there.

Another thing is that Prince and Dr. S had a conversation about withdrawals. I wonder if that conversation spooked Prince. Perhaps Prince that it would be easier to withdraw. Dr. S told Prince the reality of getting clean and Prince may have just lost hope. It kind of goes with the tone of Prince telling Kirk he don't think he can kick it or beat it (paraphasing).

Also about the glove, I thought the investigative files said a pair of gloves and jacket were laying in the hallway.

PennyPurple said:

Well KJ did tell the LE officer that he was reaching out to people I assume his past associates and nobody would tell him anything. And we have heard rumors that frantic phone calls were being made to figure out how to handle this. All they were wanting was guidance, people weren't willing to admit he had a problem. We know they reached out to Hazelton. We know KJ tried to help him by taking him to his own Dr.

I'm kinda leaning towards it kinda took KJ by surprise when he started to put it all together after Moline. By KJ's own comments he knew P had a problem with this before.

Meron, didn't know anything, about him using or his past history, until they started trying to get P help. I don't want to insult the girl, so I'll just leave it at that.

Now the next question is how did he get them? By the looks of the cars in the garage he didn't take one of them out. He rode his bike, but like Menes said after Moline all eyes were on him, so I agree he already had those pills.

If we can find out what was in the Aleve bottle and if none of those had fentanyl, then he did seperate them and he did know about the fentanyl.

I am behind on reading, so if someone answered this question, I apologize.

The Aleve bottle only contained Lidocaine.

The Bayer bottle contained Fentanyl mixed with Lidocaine. He had the Bayer bottle with him in Moline.

I long ago gave up the idea that this was accidental. The more I read here the more I am convinced Prince decided to do this deliberately, and he knew exactly what he had in those bottles.

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:

PennyPurple said:

Well KJ did tell the LE officer that he was reaching out to people I assume his past associates and nobody would tell him anything. And we have heard rumors that frantic phone calls were being made to figure out how to handle this. All they were wanting was guidance, people weren't willing to admit he had a problem. We know they reached out to Hazelton. We know KJ tried to help him by taking him to his own Dr.

I'm kinda leaning towards it kinda took KJ by surprise when he started to put it all together after Moline. By KJ's own comments he knew P had a problem with this before.

Meron, didn't know anything, about him using or his past history, until they started trying to get P help. I don't want to insult the girl, so I'll just leave it at that.

Now the next question is how did he get them? By the looks of the cars in the garage he didn't take one of them out. He rode his bike, but like Menes said after Moline all eyes were on him, so I agree he already had those pills.

If we can find out what was in the Aleve bottle and if none of those had fentanyl, then he did seperate them and he did know about the fentanyl.

I am behind on reading, so if someone answered this question, I apologize.

The Aleve bottle only contained Lidocaine.

The Bayer bottle contained Fentanyl mixed with Lidocaine. He had the Bayer bottle with him in Moline.

I think that showed that he knew which was which and he knew what he was taking.

1Sasha said:

I long ago gave up the idea that this was accidental. The more I read here the more I am convinced Prince decided to do this deliberately, and he knew exactly what he had in those bottles.

Prince DID NOT deliberately overdose. He was too image conscious to leave PP before it was completed as a museum for his adoring fans. Prince was desperate. But he was not stupid.He was blindsided.

PennyPurple said:

purplefam99 said:

PennyPurple said:

Well KJ did tell the LE officer that he was reaching out to people I assume his past associates and nobody would tell him anything. And we have heard rumors that frantic phone calls were being made to figure out how to handle this. All they were wanting was guidance, people weren't willing to admit he had a problem. We know they reached out to Hazelton. We know KJ tried to help him by taking him to his own Dr.

I'm kinda leaning towards it kinda took KJ by surprise when he started to put it all together after Moline. By KJ's own comments he knew P had a problem with this before.

Meron, didn't know anything, about him using or his past history, until they started trying to get P help. I don't want to insult the girl, so I'll just leave it at that.

Now the next question is how did he get them? By the looks of the cars in the garage he didn't take one of them out. He rode his bike, but like Menes said after Moline all eyes were on him, so I agree he already had those pills.

If we can find out what was in the Aleve bottle and if none of those had fentanyl, then he did seperate them and he did know about the fentanyl.

Then are you willing to consider the plane incident an overdose or intentional Since it took 4 mg of narcan per report to wake him up. I’m inclined to think he took around the same amount on the plane as he did on 4/21.

Well he did know what bottle he got the pills out of, because he told KJ it was the Bayer Bottle and that's when KJ gave one to the Dr. in Moline and they sent it to the Pharmacy. The Pharmacy identified it by the numbers but didn't send it out to test it.

Also didn't he tell Judith that he got the pills mixed up?

[Edited 6/26/18 11:12am]

ChocolateBox3121 said:

1Sasha said:

I long ago gave up the idea that this was accidental. The more I read here the more I am convinced Prince decided to do this deliberately, and he knew exactly what he had in those bottles.

Prince DID NOT deliberately overdose. He was too image conscious to leave PP before it was completed as a museum for his adoring fans. Prince was desperate. But he was not stupid.He was blindsided.

difficult, if not impossible, to be "image conscious" and "desperate" at the same time. I believe his 'desperation' re his growing addiction was FAR MORE IMPORTANT to him than his museum plans...he was dope sick...he was looking for the next time he could feel better....he was not curating his stage costumes and guitars (which were stashed rather disrespectfully, IMO, in what looked like a maintenance storage closet)...he was living from fix to fix. Get real...Maybe he was blindsided in Moline, but after that, he knew what was up and it wasn't 'bad soup.'

Bodhitheblackdog said:

ChocolateBox3121 said:

Prince DID NOT deliberately overdose. He was too image conscious to leave PP before it was completed as a museum for his adoring fans. Prince was desperate. But he was not stupid.He was blindsided.

difficult, if not impossible, to be "image conscious" and "desperate" at the same time. I believe his 'desperation' re his growing addiction was FAR MORE IMPORTANT to him than his museum plans...he was dope sick...he was looking for the next time he could feel better....he was not curating his stage costumes and guitars (which were stashed rather disrespectfully, IMO, in what looked like a maintenance storage closet)...he was living from fix to fix. Get real...Maybe he was blindsided in Moline, but after that, he knew what was up and it wasn't 'bad soup.'

I can understand fans who do not want to believe this was a deliberate act by the icon they have worshipped for so long. It does not change his legacy at all. But I think we all have to be open to other possibilities. He was addicted to opiods - did anyone see that coming, based upon his public disdain for drugs? We still do not know what was in his autopsy report in terms of other conditions, but I think we all have to have an open mind.

purplefam99 said:

kmama07 said:

purplefam99 said:

Then are you willing to consider the plane incident an overdose or intentional Since it took 4 mg of narcan per report to wake him up. I’m inclined to think he took around the same amount on the plane as he did on 4/21.

I can't speak for anyone else but I'm wide open right now. Never (and still don't) bought into the "murder" theory. Initially thought an underlying illness was a possibility but after reading investigation, nothing came up to coaborate that (other than chronic pain). Was surprised by the fact he was taking prescriptions in the way he was since for years he had the image and portrayed himself as a clean living person. Certainly don't fault him for the pills getting the best of him...it happens all the time to people who are taking them for real pain and they get in over their heads. Suicide? Didn't really cross my mind. Honestly thought it was like any other addict's "I'm gonna have one last fix and get clean tomorrow", and like many addicts, unfortunately and unintentionally, shit hit the fan. I guess I'm saying I'm no longer discounting a potential suicide. But honestly, I'm all over the map now. Just fucking sad all the way around. [Edited 6/26/18 14:19pm] [Edited 6/26/18 14:21pm]

I'm like you all over the map. Never did believe it was murder either. It is looking like he knew what was in the Bayer bottle. The pills in the Aleve bottle was basically nothing, so if he was taking those he would've been in withdrawal, plus the narcan threw him in withdrawal. The 15 pills in his jewelry box is upsetting that he put those back, but like another poster said, when they quit smoking they always put a cig or 2 back.

Another thing that is upsetting is that KJ did try to get help for him and reached out to former associates, and he didn't get anywhere with them. These are the same associates who knew he had drug problems for years and yet deny he was on drugs.....I bet LG knew too.

Some people are saying that if the lawsuit against the Moline Hospital and Walgreens goes forward more documents might be released that goes into more details and we will be shocked at what those documents say and the people it involves.

I'm still not 100% certain on the suicide thing. I wouldn't think that Prince would be one to do that, but again I wouldn't have thought my grandma would've done it either.

When I was doing research last night I found some gossip site that said he left a note and an insider found it but never turned it over. It's not a credible site but it does make one think???

PennyPurple said:

but now that the drug thing has been revealed ...why arent any/all of these people talking NOW????

what is there to hide???? their own asses probably...

luvsexy4all said:

but now that the drug thing has been revealed ...why arent any/all of these people talking NOW????

what is there to hide???? their own asses probably...

They are riding the purple $$ train for as long as they possibly can.

luvsexy4all said:

but now that the drug thing has been revealed ...why arent any/all of these people talking NOW????

what is there to hide???? their own asses probably...

YUP! The closer they were, the more they knew, the more complicit they will be seen as being for his downfall. At least his second wife, when she apparently realized her/their love was not going to get him off drugs, had the dignity to leave so she would no longer even inadvertantly be an enabler. I'm not saying her money grubbing was dignified...but at least she wasn't in denial...angry? yes (the Charlie Sheen Facebook sneer)...but she wasn't willing to hang around so she could trip over his body one day.

PennyPurple said:

I don't think the Welton's knew anything, they never seen him take anything but Aleve. Well guess what was in the Aleve bottle................

1Sasha said:

luvsexy4all said:

PennyPurple said:

purplefam99 said:

luvsexy4all said:

but now that the drug thing has been revealed ...why arent any/all of these people talking NOW????

what is there to hide???? their own asses probably...

I think mayte pretty much tells us she knew. She let us know In a gentle way I feel.

co-sign

PennyPurple said:

kmama07 said:

purplefam99 said: I can't speak for anyone else but I'm wide open right now. Never (and still don't) bought into the "murder" theory. Initially thought an underlying illness was a possibility but after reading investigation, nothing came up to coaborate that (other than chronic pain). Was surprised by the fact he was taking prescriptions in the way he was since for years he had the image and portrayed himself as a clean living person. Certainly don't fault him for the pills getting the best of him...it happens all the time to people who are taking them for real pain and they get in over their heads. Suicide? Didn't really cross my mind. Honestly thought it was like any other addict's "I'm gonna have one last fix and get clean tomorrow", and like many addicts, unfortunately and unintentionally, shit hit the fan. I guess I'm saying I'm no longer discounting a potential suicide. But honestly, I'm all over the map now. Just fucking sad all the way around. [Edited 6/26/18 14:19pm] [Edited 6/26/18 14:21pm]

I'm like you all over the map. Never did believe it was murder either. It is looking like he knew what was in the Bayer bottle. The pills in the Aleve bottle was basically nothing, so if he was taking those he would've been in withdrawal, plus the narcan threw him in withdrawal. The 15 pills in his jewelry box is upsetting that he put those back, but like another poster said, when they quit smoking they always put a cig or 2 back.

Another thing that is upsetting is that KJ did try to get help for him and reached out to former associates, and he didn't get anywhere with them. These are the same associates who knew he had drug problems for years and yet deny he was on drugs.....I bet LG knew too.

Some people are saying that if the lawsuit against the Moline Hospital and Walgreens goes forward more documents might be released that goes into more details and we will be shocked at what those documents say and the people it involves.

I'm still not 100% certain on the suicide thing. I wouldn't think that Prince would be one to do that, but again I wouldn't have thought my grandma would've done it either.

When I was doing research last night I found some gossip site that said he left a note and an insider found it but never turned it over. It's not a credible site but it does make one think???

I'm with you Penny. There are aspects to this whole thing that just don't seem to fit well. As for the gossip site reveal? I have NO doubt that had he committed suicide and left a note, one of his 'people' would have taken it and not turned it over to the police. I have no trouble believing that for a minute, given all the other tampering that went on.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

ChocolateBox3121 said:

Prince DID NOT deliberately overdose. He was too image conscious to leave PP before it was completed as a museum for his adoring fans. Prince was desperate. But he was not stupid.He was blindsided.

difficult, if not impossible, to be "image conscious" and "desperate" at the same time. I believe his 'desperation' re his growing addiction was FAR MORE IMPORTANT to him than his museum plans...he was dope sick...he was looking for the next time he could feel better....he was not curating his stage costumes and guitars (which were stashed rather disrespectfully, IMO, in what looked like a maintenance storage closet)...he was living from fix to fix. Get real...Maybe he was blindsided in Moline, but after that, he knew what was up and it wasn't 'bad soup.'

Exactly Bohi. If he was blindsided in Moline and overdosed almost to the point of death, he might have been inclined/scared enough to keep his fingers out of that Bayer bottle with the fentanyl in it. But no...he went for it again. Deliberately or accidentally? I wonder if we'll ever know. But for sure he was dope sick - in fact he would have been viciously sick altogether, given the double dose of Narcan mere days earlier. He would have been battling full blown withdrawals - he reached for the Bayer bottle again. I also agree that his house was a mess, his belongings not being cared for, his instruments laying around. It looked to me like he didn't care anymore - most likely what you said...he was living from fix to fix at that point.