ThatWhiteDude said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

purplerabbithole said:

ThatWhiteDude said: Then she should have taken the highway. He had a powerful influence but ultimately she had free will.

Yeah, that's the right thing, blame the victim. She was beaten down by the death of her son, she was as weak as you can be in these moments.

I really hope you'll never get to the point she was, but if it happens to you, I hope that you remember what you said about Mayte and the interview.

And that was Prince's son as well. Just a remainder since you as well as Mayte seem to have forgotten. He threw himself into his work to deal with it and I am sure when she was not around he cried his eyes out. It is called being a man.

purplerabbithole said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

She didn't say she was forced out of love, and you forget that she begged him to tell Oprah to leave! He didn't, that doesn't sound like a free choice.

That is not what I said. I said she did what he wanted because she loved him. I don’t know why he had Oprah over. I am saying that having his wife promote the album with him was not a career necessity so why do it? Why not send her away and tell Oprah that she is physically recovering from the childbirth? Why involve Mayte so much when it was not a necessity? I think there was some reason beyond career motivations. I am still not sure why Mayte could not have called mom or Dad and left at least on the day of the Oprah visit? Was she physically incapable? [Edited 11/14/17 10:24am]

He wanted his wife by his side and nothing would have stopped her from leaving with her parents if she wanted to. That is one of the reasons I cannot understand why she is still complaining about this 20 years later. She made choices and sometimes you have to live with them.

laurarichardson said:

laurarichardson said:

purplerabbithole said:

purplerabbithole said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

laurarichardson said:

And that was Prince's son as well. Just a remainder since you as well as Mayte seem to have forgotten. He threw himself into his work to deal with it and I am sure when she was not around he cried his eyes out. It is called being a man.

I never said anything else, but his move was cold and fucked up, you just try to justify his actions!!!!

I do not have to justify his actions. They were his actions to do as he pleased something you cannot get thru your skull. No one gets to tell someone else how to greive. It is absurb and you Matye worshipers are just as bad as she is . The level of immaturity by her even now as a women in her 40s is appalling but Prince got what he deserved for marrying someone with the mind of child.

laurarichardson said:

SpinsterSister said:

following

ThatWhiteDude said:

purplerabbithole said:

laurarichardson said: I don’t engage with Bart. But it’s funny that he would bring up Prince antics about the Black Album. If anything those tactics prove that he did not always put career above beliefs or other concerns. Also like I said P being vague about his kids death is not the same thing as saying “my son is not dead.” Saying essentially we are okay and still have a family is not the same thing. [Edited 11/14/17 6:27am]

He didn't exactly use this words, but to say: "It's all good, nevermind what you hear"is still not right, his wife heard it and he even forced her to do the interview. I'm sorry, but how he "managed" the subject wasn't right.

and he also said "our family exist", i think that was a fine, i am still gonna be private way for him

to state his reality. i love that he acknowledged that they were a "family" and that the baby in what ever state, dead or alive that he said publicly that that is what they are/were. it was well said

and he need not say anymore. imo

laurarichardson said:

purplerabbithole said:

laurarichardson said: I don’t engage with Bart. But it’s funny that he would bring up Prince antics about the Black Album. If anything those tactics prove that he did not always put career above beliefs or other concerns. Also like I said P being vague about his kids death is not the same thing as saying “my son is not dead.” Saying essentially we are okay and still have a family is not the same thing. [Edited 11/14/17 6:27am]

They were still a family and tried to have another child soon after and just maybe they or at least he was okay. He was vague because it was not anyone's business. Old school black folk do not go around putting their personal business out in the streets. It is no more complicated then that.

They sure don't^^^^^ it is Black household rule NUMBER 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your told that upon birth.

and he was OLD SCHOOL!!!!!!! in UTCM when he tells Mary she has "no home training" that line

right there tells you how old school he was. Prince was a liberal/open black oldschool/conservative man.

imo

[Edited 11/14/17 14:50pm]

Some good points there. I am going to speculate a great deal here...but why not?

Here is how i see it.. Many men (if not most) have a tendency to try to solve problems rather than just directly deal with how they feel. From my understanding, Mayte had been laying in bed hugging the urn for so many days she lost count. If I recall, he at one point snuck into the bed and laid next to her and quietly left. He also (I believe) stated that he couldn't stay in the house anymore. Meanwhile, the album that was a love note to his wife and (at the time) living child is being promoted and there are rumors swirling. I imagine that P thought that he was going to have to solve three problems at the same time--how to help his wife and himself cope, how to promote an independently-produced album that is a painful reminder of better days (that people counted on him to promote) and how to maintain his privacy. Having no idea how to help a wife who is inconsolable, he conjured up a fantasy or belief system that if you never say the words that the boy died than his soul will return (I believe Mayte alluded to a belief of P's that the soul of this child would just slip on to next one.) Maybe he went and wrote Comeback at that point (only to record a few years later) . So, then he tries a bit tough love...forces his wife to get out of bed to do the oprah interview and a few more (Gumbel) and says to her "I need you to do this for me". He tells the world (with his wife like they are an united front) that their family is "fine" so people won't dig into the painful reality and justifies to himself going on Muppets as a way to honor the fallen child and embrace future fatherhood. He tells the world that their family is fine to convince himself that it will be and to continue the dream started when he first starting writing the songs for Emancipation. When this fantasy is challenged later, he embraced a religion that shares some similar ideas...(JW's second resurrection belief)

HEre is the the problem with this kind of coping mechanism---its based on fantasy. Kind of like the infertile married couple in Who's Afraid of Virgina Woolf when they conjure up a child that never existed to keep their marriage together. Prince tried to force his coping mechanism on her and Mayte being in love with the man somewhat resentfully went along with it. She just wanted to feel what she felt and express what she felt for real (and probably wasn't ready to go out publically) Was P cruel? In a way, yes. But he could have been thinking that he had to be cruel to be kind and was starting to get a bit panicky about career and wife's emotional issues. I wonder sometimes if Mayte and others would be less upset with P if he had pushed her to do the interview but encouraged her to be open about what happened. ? The reality is that Mayte has discussed this loss in the public realm herself and with vivid detail (as soon as she was legally able.) . Obviously, she and P coped differently. But I have to say, at least, he didn't force her to speak on the matter. If I recall, when the subject of the child is brought up in both interviews (Gumbel and Oprah), P does the talking. I know he was the dominant one in many ways (not alwasys a good thing obviously) but it was his fantasy he was portraying.

right there tells you how old school he was. Prince was a liberal/open black oldschool/conservative man.

imo

[Edited 11/14/17 14:50pm]

[Edited 11/14/17 16:03pm]

[Edited 11/14/17 16:14pm]

Really interesting view. You really thought about this, and what's really great is that you don't trash mayte or prince. That you show that you feel for them both.

purplerabbithole said:

Some good points there. I am going to speculate a great deal here...but why not?

Here is how i see it.. Many men (if not most) have a tendency to try to solve problems rather than just directly deal with how they feel. From my understanding, Mayte had been laying in bed hugging the urn for so many days she lost count. If I recall, he at one point snuck into the bed and laid next to her and quietly left. He also (I believe) stated that he couldn't stay in the house anymore. Meanwhile, the album that was a love note to his wife and (at the time) living child is being promoted and there are rumors swirling. I imagine that P thought that he was going to have to solve three problems at the same time--how to help his wife and himself cope, how to promote an independently-produced album that is a painful reminder of better days (that people counted on him to promote) and how to maintain his privacy. Having no idea how to help a wife who is inconsolable, he conjured up a fantasy or belief system that if you never say the words that the boy died than his soul will return (I believe Mayte alluded to a belief of P's that the soul of this child would just slip on to next one.) Maybe he went and wrote Comeback at that point (only to record a few years later) . So, then he tries a bit tough love...forces his wife to get out of bed to do the oprah interview and a few more (Gumbel) and says to her "I need you to do this for me". He tells the world that their family is "fine" so people won't dig into the painful reality and justifies to himself going on Muppets as a way to honor the fallen child and embrace future fatherhood. He tells the world that their family is fine to convince himself that it will and to continue the dream started when he first starting writing the songs for Emancipations..

HEre is the the problem with this kind of coping mechanism---its based on fantasy. Kind of like the infertile married couple in Who's Afraid of Virgina Woolf when they conjure up a child that never existed to keep their marriage together. Prince tried to force his coping mechanism on her and Mayte being in love with the man somewhat resentfully went along with it. She just wanted to feel what she felt and express what she felt for real (and probably wasn't ready to go out publically) Was P cruel? In a way, yes. But he could have been thinking that he had to be cruel to be kind and was starting to get a bit panicky about career and wife's emotional issues. I wonder sometimes if Mayte and others would be less upset with P if he had pushed her to do the interview but encouraged her to be open about what happened. ? The reality is that Mayte has discussed this loss in the public realm herself and with vivid detail since then. Obviously, she and P coped differently. But I have to say, at least, he didn't force her to speak on the matter. If I recall, when the subject of the child is brought up in both interviews (Gumbel and Oprah), P does the talking. I know he was the dominant one in many ways (not alwasys a good thing obviously) but it was his fantasy he was portraying.

right there tells you how old school he was. Prince was a liberal/open black oldschool/conservative man.

imo

[Edited 11/14/17 14:50pm]

[Edited 11/14/17 16:03pm]

Swensson, 2 Letters: BS

JasminMaria said:

Swensson, 2 Letters: BS

Is there something you want to share with us JasminMaria?

laurarichardson said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

He once halted the release of an album mere days before its release, costing him a significant amount of dollars, due to a bad XTC trip.

.

Now compare to what happened with Emancipation.

What the fuck does Prince discussing his dead child while promoting his Emancipation have to do with the black album?

What is your point?

well said, Laura...keep going.... you are dropping gems all through this thread...

ThatWhiteDude said:

laurarichardson said:

I do not have to justify his actions. They were his actions to do as he pleased something you cannot get thru your skull. No one gets to tell someone else how to greive. It is absurb and you Matye worshipers are just as bad as she is . The level of immaturity by her even now as a women in her 40s is appalling but Prince got what he deserved for marrying someone with the mind of child.

I didn't say how he should've grieved! I said that dragging her out of bed was a horrible act. I'm not a whorshipper but you seem like a fucking fanatic. So you want to say she was immature during that Interview??? She just lost a child, something you obviously have never been through, the lack of sympathy shows it. You are disgusting

Prince was a very private man that learn t to deal with problems his way. In those few days after the child's birth he must have felt totally helpess and desperately needed to be in control, if not of events at least of the whole narrative. He knew the Oprah interview was scheduled, he knew there were already rumours about the child, so he must have thought that it would buy him some time to just do the interview like everything was normal. He never said nothing about the child, skillfully avoided any questions from Oprah with answers like "It's all good, we are still a family". To me this is like saying "we are fine, this hasn't broken us, we are still a family and will try again", while at the same time he was not lying about what had happened. Now the only way to make it all look normal in order to buy him some time to gather his own thoughts and feelings whilst being very much in the public eye and surrounded by rumours was to have Mayte there with him. Otherwise everyone would realize that something was very wrong. So yes, it was a cruel thing to do. For both of them. A cruel and probably traumatizing experience, to just smile and wave, as they say. Prince did it because that's how he learnt to deal with his problems, Mayte did it because she loved the man and probably would have done everything for him. He was wrong to have asked her for such a thing, but let's cut the man some slack, it was done almost in panic of anyone finding out.
What saddens me is how this was his typical MO for everything. The shame and concern about what others might think, this whole society stigma and obsession over the private lives of so called celebrities has brought us to where we are today. In a way, we can draw a parallel with what happened to Princess Diana. She too was a victim of society's obsession with her private life. It's a bit of a stretch, I know, but some of you may understand what I'm getting at. I'm not a native speaker, so sometimes it may come across as not very clear. Ultimately died of an overdose and he was a grown ass man so he knew what he was doing. That does not mean he was not vulnerable to many external things...

[Edited 11/15/17 2:25am]

purplerabbithole said:

I choose to sympathize with both — a messed up mourning man trying to maintain privacy

.

He announced the conception of the baby in a press release, used his heartbeat in a song and an ultrasound was used in the artwork.

.

What "privacy"?

MMJas said:

ThatWhiteDude said:

laurarichardson said: I didn't say how he should've grieved! I said that dragging her out of bed was a horrible act. I'm not a whorshipper but you seem like a fucking fanatic. So you want to say she was immature during that Interview??? She just lost a child, something you obviously have never been through, the lack of sympathy shows it. You are disgusting

Prince was a very private man

.

He announced his wedding to Mayte on his official website. And that's just one example of many where he suddenly stopped caring about privacy when he could use something to gain publicity.

laurarichardson said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

He once halted the release of an album mere days before its release, costing him a significant amount of dollars, due to a bad XTC trip.

.

Now compare to what happened with Emancipation.

What the fuck does Prince discussing his dead child while promoting his Emancipation have to do with the black album?

What is your point?

.

Lemme help you: I pointed to a time when he cancelled an album's release for a fickle reason. Now compare to what happened with he did and didn't do when it came to Emancipation. Hint: he didn't cancel it.

laurarichardson said:

He was vague because it was not anyone's business. Old school black folk do not go around putting their personal business out in the streets.

.

Yeah, the man who used his unborn son's heartbeat in a song and who used an ultrasound in his album's artwork would not have used him for publicity.

.

Pur-lease.

Andrea Swensson said:

Prince’s death was the result of being in “a lot of pain and [being] scared to tell anyone.”

Prince's Death

Direct cause: Painkiller Overdose
Root cause: His acrobatics on high heels when entertaining us during his carreer.
Contributing cause: JW Doctrine. It prevented him from having decent surgery to get rid of the pain.

BartVanHemelen said:

laurarichardson said:

What the fuck does Prince discussing his dead child while promoting his Emancipation have to do with the black album?

What is your point?

.

Lemme help you: I pointed to a time when he cancelled an album's release for a fickle reason. Now compare to what happened with he did and didn't do when it came to Emancipation. Hint: he didn't cancel it.

That's what I tried to explaine too. He could've canceled it, he could've canceled the interview. If I was him, I wouldn't have give a fuck about Oprah and her crew, and would've said: "My wife recovers from the birth." End of it.

I didn't say that I don't understand why he coped with the situation the way he did. But no one can deny that what he put his wife through was cruel. And no, he wasn't cruel to himself, because, he decided for himself. But Mayte was forced to do it and it was too easy to manipulate her while she was in that state of mind.

BartVanHemelen said:

MMJas said:

Prince was a very private man

.

He announced his wedding to Mayte on his official website. And that's just one example of many where he suddenly stopped caring about privacy when he could use something to gain publicity.

You are taking my comment out of context, hence the missing rest. i was referring to the incident surrounding his child's condition.

Don't bother clarifying or talking about something with nuance. Bart doesn't care. We all know that a public figure will ocassionally talk about his personal life to promote work that has to do with his personal life. It doesn't mean they want cameras up their ass during horrible moments. If you celebrate the birth of a child and even tell the world his name, that doesn't mean you will parade the child in front of cameras or allow access to his/her delivery. There is a lot of things (not just bad--some good and some quite sad) that we didn't know about Prince before he died.

So just say "LEVEL OR DEGREE OF PRIVACY" so Bart doesn't write 4 posts repeating the same point over and over and calling Prince's fans idiots and gulliable. Bart also seem oblivious to the fact that rehashing publically one's loss or suffering garners a lot more attention or publicity than somewhat boring and vague celebrations of getting married and having a kid (because traditional family life and white picket fences were what made Prince a star in the first place and what draw in the ever allusive youth market. --LOL)

I hope you and whitedude know that Bart was/is the biggest Prince hater this site has ever experienced. He's been a bit less vocal since Prince's death but his nastiness will ocassionally resurface even now. For some reason, he occasionally posts Prince music info however (as long as its 80's stuff)>

MMJas said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

He announced his wedding to Mayte on his official website. And that's just one example of many where he suddenly stopped caring about privacy when he could use something to gain publicity.

You are taking my comment out of context, hence the missing rest. i was referring to the incident surrounding his child's condition.

[Edited 11/15/17 4:11am]

[Edited 11/15/17 4:14am]

[Edited 11/15/17 4:16am]

ThatWhiteDude said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

Lemme help you: I pointed to a time when he cancelled an album's release for a fickle reason. Now compare to what happened with he did and didn't do when it came to Emancipation. Hint: he didn't cancel it.

That's what I tried to explaine too. He could've canceled it, he could've canceled the interview. If I was him, I wouldn't have give a fuck about Oprah and her crew, and would've said: "My wife recovers from the birth." End of it.

I didn't say that I don't understand why he coped with the situation the way he did. But no one can deny that what he put his wife through was cruel. And no, he wasn't cruel to himself, because, he decided for himself. But Mayte was forced to do it and it was too easy to manipulate her while she was in that state of mind.

Because you are not in the entertainment industry with 100s of people depending on you to make a living. It is easy to request to cancel an album and the ultimate decision rested with WB not Prince.

Not so hard to ask Oprah to get back on a plane with her entire crew when you the artist wanted her to come to your home state and interview you. Prince had a contract with a new record company and I am sure they were not going to be understanding.

We have no proof other then what Mayte has said about the stituation to say he forced her to do anything. Unless he put a gun to her head I doubt he forced her to do anything. Even now as a 40 something year old women she takes no responsiblity for going along with a lot of things she did not like or agree with it.

TweetyV6 said:

Andrea Swensson said:

Prince’s death was the result of being in “a lot of pain and [being] scared to tell anyone.”

Prince's Death

Direct cause: Painkiller Overdose
Root cause: His acrobatics on high heels when entertaining us during his carreer.
Contributing cause: JW Doctrine. It prevented him from having decent surgery to get rid of the pain.

JW do not stop people from having surgery and Prince did have a surgical procedure in 2010 see below and according to the search warrants Kirk said he had been in the hospital twice in recent years. It does not sound like anyone was stoping him from having surgery or going to a hospital and we know nothing about high heels causing joint problems. Stop beliving everything you read and stop listening to Swensson who sounds like a moron. What would Prince telling the whole world he had pain actually would of accompolished? Also he did tell me people because Scotty and Tavis have spoken about as well as a few other people.

See article about surgery.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2016/04/22/the-day-i-hung-out-at-princes-house-talking-fame-disguises-and-michael-jacksons-death/?utm_term=.0ebafbf710e0

"Two hours passed before Prince strode into the room to meet us, wearing fairly casual clothing, in his own unique style, of course: fitted black button-up shirt and black slacks, accented by Lucite-soled sneakers inset with lights that blinked on his every step. His walk was more of a “pimp,” really — partially due to a recent hip surgery, but also because Prince just had incredible swag."

Amazing how good The Smiths's Andy Rourke's basslines were, when he was hooked on heroin Or Peter Buck's brilliant guitar playing and songwriting when he was using drink and drugs since the age of 14 to deal with depression and anxiety issues

Funny that.