KlyphIsBackAgain said:

CandaceS said:

Yes, please clarify!


I just read all this...still amazed that they would release something that did not come from the master !! But as some have pointed out, it just might not have been available.

Speaking of that, what evidence do we have that Prince was involved in putting together this collection? I keep reading that assertion, but I've never seen a source for it.

I believe the photographer said that Prince approved the photos. Not only that but we know that Prince was to release previously unreleased material through WB as part of the deal announced in 2014. Also, WB would be stupid to release something they did not already have the contractual right to. People keep bringing up the "estate" but WB has a contract signed by Prince that is still valid. How many releases that's for is the question (as well as what will be on them).

Susan has commented in the past about Prince not caring about sound quality of his recordings and also about has lack of caring about the upkeep of his masters, so a "missed opportunity" could mean several things.

[Edited 11/28/16 19:20pm]

Like I was saying elsewhere, i'd say this tape comes directly from Prince but that doesn't mean he was bothered finding the original masters, baking them and transferring them and all that slow, tedious restoration work that is required when he had new songs to write.

No that was going to be my first question when I heard it. Def better than the BFTP version, which was very high in treble and some clipping, but alot better than the other sources before.

I heard the CD version and just immediatley erased all three copies I had before, this was the real deal.

jaawwnn said:

Like I was saying elsewhere, i'd say this tape comes directly from Prince but that doesn't mean he was bothered finding the original masters, baking them and transferring them and all that slow, tedious restoration work that is required when he had new songs to write.

This. Again, we're talking about somebody who officially sold bad VHS copies of "The Beautiful Experience" TV special coming from the actual television broadcasts.

databank said:

Just to add my 2 cents, there's no way the version from BFTP comes from a pre-4ever leak because...

1/ It's slightly different (I haven't checked but that's what I've read here, different fade out)

2/ People need to realize that all the outtakes we have are in the hands of some collectors in pristine quality, and were purposedely trashed before being released on boots

3/ There were many other pristine quality sounding songs leaked at the same time, showing an "elite" collector was behind the new leaks

4/ Prince most certainly didn't send it to "some fans"

.

If we're to trust cb70's statement about asking Susan Rogers abut it, I think it solves it all: it may not come straight from a released bootleg but it comes from an already mixed second gen tape that WB obtained one way or another, and wasn't properly remixed/mastered from an original multitrack, which explaines why it doesn't sound anywhere as good as Cloreen Bacon Skin or other Crystal Ball material.

.

Also, there is no indication WB wasn't allowed to rerelease TGE: that's yet another urban myth created by orgers many years ago without any substantial evidence, that has become assumed as being a fact after years of being repeated over and again. According to the album's indicia TGE is (p) WB, so unless that was a misprint (which is very unlikely) WB had the masters to that one up until 2014 alongside the rest. The master to TMBGITW would therefore have been copyrighted twice, under 2 slightly different versions though, one as (p) NPG and one as (p) WB. As to why it's not on 4ever, IDK.

.

The notion of sueing WB about ML is totally extravagant: WB is entitled to release bootlegs if they so wish, as long as they have the estate's contractual approval. Never in the history of recorded music were labels legally constrained to deliver material of any given sound quality to the public.

[Edited 11/28/16 14:15pm]

The other one having a quicker fade out doesn't mean they are from a different source. A quicker fade out can be applied to a sound file on a program with a few mouse clicks.

After having listened to both versions discussed here numerous times, I'm 80-90% convinced they share the same source.

[Edited 11/29/16 4:09am]

KlyphIsBackAgain said:

Just so the conspiracy theorists won't have a field day, "not from the master tapes" does not mean bootleg.....

It doesn't mean that we should rush into concluding that the WB release is sourced from a bootleg, but it does mean that the chances for it are substantially higher as a result of her comment.

Especially when taking into account that she also stated she can't say anything more about the subject matter. That strongly implies something questionable is involved.

[Edited 11/29/16 4:08am]

jaawwnn said:

KlyphIsBackAgain said:

I believe the photographer said that Prince approved the photos. Not only that but we know that Prince was to release previously unreleased material through WB as part of the deal announced in 2014. Also, WB would be stupid to release something they did not already have the contractual right to. People keep bringing up the "estate" but WB has a contract signed by Prince that is still valid. How many releases that's for is the question (as well as what will be on them).

Susan has commented in the past about Prince not caring about sound quality of his recordings and also about has lack of caring about the upkeep of his masters, so a "missed opportunity" could mean several things.

[Edited 11/28/16 19:20pm]

Like I was saying elsewhere, i'd say this tape comes directly from Prince but that doesn't mean he was bothered finding the original masters, baking them and transferring them and all that slow, tedious restoration work that is required when he had new songs to write.

I highly doubt "baking" would have to be performed on every recording Prince has done in the past.

30-40 year old tapes in most cases are perfectly playable.

I have cheap reel tapes used on older multitrack recording devices from the 1980s, with bands playing their stuff on them, and the tapes are just okay. They might not qualify as "hifi", but the idea that the audio on Prince's 80s unreleased masters would be detoriated to the point of no restoration without "baking" involved is exaggeration. Digital retouching should suffice in most cases.

Besides, there's no reason Prince would have to do the restoration work himself (he most likely wouldn't have done it for too many tracks anyway, as very few artists have done it).

[Edited 11/29/16 4:11am]

novabrkr said:

databank said:

Just to add my 2 cents, there's no way the version from BFTP comes from a pre-4ever leak because...

1/ It's slightly different (I haven't checked but that's what I've read here, different fade out)

2/ People need to realize that all the outtakes we have are in the hands of some collectors in pristine quality, and were purposedely trashed before being released on boots

3/ There were many other pristine quality sounding songs leaked at the same time, showing an "elite" collector was behind the new leaks

4/ Prince most certainly didn't send it to "some fans"

.

If we're to trust cb70's statement about asking Susan Rogers abut it, I think it solves it all: it may not come straight from a released bootleg but it comes from an already mixed second gen tape that WB obtained one way or another, and wasn't properly remixed/mastered from an original multitrack, which explaines why it doesn't sound anywhere as good as Cloreen Bacon Skin or other Crystal Ball material.

.

Also, there is no indication WB wasn't allowed to rerelease TGE: that's yet another urban myth created by orgers many years ago without any substantial evidence, that has become assumed as being a fact after years of being repeated over and again. According to the album's indicia TGE is (p) WB, so unless that was a misprint (which is very unlikely) WB had the masters to that one up until 2014 alongside the rest. The master to TMBGITW would therefore have been copyrighted twice, under 2 slightly different versions though, one as (p) NPG and one as (p) WB. As to why it's not on 4ever, IDK.

.

The notion of sueing WB about ML is totally extravagant: WB is entitled to release bootlegs if they so wish, as long as they have the estate's contractual approval. Never in the history of recorded music were labels legally constrained to deliver material of any given sound quality to the public.

[Edited 11/28/16 14:15pm]

The other one having a quicker fade out doesn't mean they are from a different source. A quicker fade out can be applied to a sound file on a program with a few mouse clicks.

After having listened to both versions discussed here numerous times, I'm 80-90% convinced they share the same source.

[Edited 11/29/16 4:09am]

Can it just be that the bootleggers already have the prestine quality version already? Then in that case, would not have made the studio version much different in the first place...but it def did not come from BFTP CD. Same with "Blue Gangsta" and "Love Never Felt So Good" by Michael Jackson. Us hardcore fans had those already, but they were released officially on Xscape and to be honest sounded just about no different than the originals Michael had. We already know Crystal Ball was mastered purposely loud per his request to the engineer and much different than the rest of the albums that followed after so saying Moonbeam Levels should have sound like that is questionable as none of the other songs on the 4Ever album are retouched as high as Crystal Ball (and Girl 6 which sound as if they were mixed the same fashion) was.

paisleypark4 said:

novabrkr said:

The other one having a quicker fade out doesn't mean they are from a different source. A quicker fade out can be applied to a sound file on a program with a few mouse clicks.

After having listened to both versions discussed here numerous times, I'm 80-90% convinced they share the same source.

[Edited 11/29/16 4:09am]

Can it just be that the bootleggers already have the prestine quality version already? Then in that case, would not have made the studio version much different in the first place...but it def did not come from BFTP CD. Same with "Blue Gangsta" and "Love Never Felt So Good" by Michael Jackson. Us hardcore fans had those already, but they were released officially on Xscape and to be honest sounded just about no different than the originals Michael had. We already know Crystal Ball was mastered purposely loud per his request to the engineer and much different than the rest of the albums that followed after so saying Moonbeam Levels should have sound like that is questionable as none of the other songs on the 4Ever album are retouched as high as Crystal Ball (and Girl 6 which sound as if they were mixed the same fashion) was.

Actually, the released version of Blue Gangsta is a different mix than the leaked version, which was much more finished. And Love Never Felt So Good was a composite of different sources - in much better quality.

novabrkr said:

jaawwnn said:

Like I was saying elsewhere, i'd say this tape comes directly from Prince but that doesn't mean he was bothered finding the original masters, baking them and transferring them and all that slow, tedious restoration work that is required when he had new songs to write.

I highly doubt "baking" would have to be performed on every recording Prince has done in the past.

30-40 year old tapes in most cases are perfectly playable.

I have cheap reel tapes used on older multitrack recording devices from the 1980s, with bands playing their stuff on them, and the tapes are just okay. They might not qualify as "hifi", but the idea that the audio on Prince's 80s unreleased masters would be detoriated to the point of no restoration without "baking" involved is exaggeration. Digital retouching should suffice in most cases.

Besides, there's no reason Prince would have to do the restoration work himself (he most likely wouldn't have done it for too many tracks anyway, as very few artists have done it).

[Edited 11/29/16 4:11am]

I didn't mean literally baking that specific tape, it was shorthand for "whatever work has to be done", I have no idea what condition his tapes are in.

As for Prince getting someone else to do the work, yeah he might have done that, but he was also obsessed with controlling every aspect of his career. He claimed in interviews to have personally remastered his back-catalogue himself.

[Edited 11/29/16 11:29am]

bluegangsta said:

paisleypark4 said:

Can it just be that the bootleggers already have the prestine quality version already? Then in that case, would not have made the studio version much different in the first place...but it def did not come from BFTP CD. Same with "Blue Gangsta" and "Love Never Felt So Good" by Michael Jackson. Us hardcore fans had those already, but they were released officially on Xscape and to be honest sounded just about no different than the originals Michael had. We already know Crystal Ball was mastered purposely loud per his request to the engineer and much different than the rest of the albums that followed after so saying Moonbeam Levels should have sound like that is questionable as none of the other songs on the 4Ever album are retouched as high as Crystal Ball (and Girl 6 which sound as if they were mixed the same fashion) was.

Actually, the released version of Blue Gangsta is a different mix than the leaked version, which was much more finished. And Love Never Felt So Good was a composite of different sources - in much better quality.

Was it? I know the releassed version had better bass on the demo version than the leaked one. However really there were not many differences? Maybe I'll have to go back and listen to them, what are they? Adlibs? Horns?

steakfinger said:

I think what it comes down to is that the track was not remixed from the multitracks. If Prince knew ahead of time that ML wasn't going to be on 1999 then he probably wouldn't have spent the time in the studio doing a proper mix. The estate probably found this particular mix of ML in the vault and mistook it for a final mix. It sounds crusty because it is most likely a pretty good rough mix that never got a proper mix because Prince decided Free should be the one in that slot. It costs time and money to really mix something and this track probably never got that attention. It's a good rough mix and a little cleaner than the boots.

There's nothing wrong with the mix. It's just clearly not from a master.

paisleypark4 said:

Your bftp version, did you have it as part of the set or as a standalone track? I ask because I have a standalone file which has the raised treble you mention but the blast version is almost sonically identical to the released version.

paisleypark4 said:

bluegangsta said:

Actually, the released version of Blue Gangsta is a different mix than the leaked version, which was much more finished. And Love Never Felt So Good was a composite of different sources - in much better quality.

Was it? I know the releassed version had better bass on the demo version than the leaked one. However really there were not many differences? Maybe I'll have to go back and listen to them, what are they? Adlibs? Horns?

It's the mix that's different. Overall, more dry than the completed version.

As others have said, bootleg probably surfaced when this recording was sent for inclusion on a proposed release.

Shoot me down, but I always felt the rereleased Black Album sounds muddy and horrible... and like a remastered bootleg... compared to the layers of sound and detail of Lovesexy!

james said:

As others have said, bootleg probably surfaced when this recording was sent for inclusion on a proposed release.

Shoot me down, but I always felt the rereleased Black Album sounds muddy and horrible... and like a remastered bootleg... compared to the layers of sound and detail of Lovesexy!

I think that quite a lot of people find it lacking in sound quality here so you're far from the only one here who has that opinion. Thing is I think I remember someone replying to me here that the original vinyl release which was recalled also sounded similarly lacking so it might not just be the rerelease. That album would definitely be a prime candidate for a remaster imo.

TheEnglishGent said:

paisleypark4 said:

No that was going to be my first question when I heard it. Def better than the BFTP version, which was very high in treble and some clipping, but alot better than the other sources before.

I heard the CD version and just immediatley erased all three copies I had before, this was the real deal.

Your bftp version, did you have it as part of the set or as a standalone track? I ask because I have a standalone file which has the raised treble you mention but the blast version is almost sonically identical to the released version.

Yes standalone track. The only difference is the treble is really high in this mix and the fade out is shorter and is clearly in a lower bitrate. In that case one could assume there is a "better" version floating out there, and being that this is a NPG Estate release as well, I would highly doubt the source being from a boot. I would just conclude that the last mix is just exactly what we have and what prince had (and possibly given to someone years ago on tape however it got sourced). Now if there is a "better" version floating out there one would have to prove that and bring receipts. Otherwise this is as good as it gets.

paisleypark4 said:

TheEnglishGent said:

paisleypark4 said: Your bftp version, did you have it as part of the set or as a standalone track? I ask because I have a standalone file which has the raised treble you mention but the blast version is almost sonically identical to the released version.

Yes standalone track. The only difference is the treble is really high in this mix and the fade out is shorter and is clearly in a lower bitrate. In that case one could assume there is a "better" version floating out there, and being that this is a NPG Estate release as well, I would highly doubt the source being from a boot. I would just conclude that the last mix is just exactly what we have and what prince had (and possibly given to someone years ago on tape however it got sourced). Now if there is a "better" version floating out there one would have to prove that and bring receipts. Otherwise this is as good as it gets.

Yeah, that definitely sounds like the other version, not the Blast one.