I just gotta know..

1. Are we going to do this with every unreleased song that gets released?

2. Are we even gonna try to love each other?

Iamtheorg said:

I just gotta know..

1. Are we going to do this with every unreleased song that gets released?

2. Are we even gonna try to love each other?

nobody can torture themselves like an orger

I might change my mind about it later, but after giving my ears some rest and A/B:ing the discussed versions again, I think the official version and the BFTP versions come from the same source. Even the distortion artefacts seem to be the same. The WB version seem to have gone through a little bit more tinkering though.

I think one thing is clear in any case, there's no way the BFTP could be some sort of a "nth generation" copy that's gotten forwarded in the tape trading scene (using c-cassettes), whereas the version WB put out a few days ago would be a direct transfer from the masters. Using tapes will no doubt introduce all types of additional noises.

Yeah, I think it's possible WB really did put out audio that's from a bootlegged source. Just think of all the crap that's been involved with the posthumous Michael Jackson releases, so I wouldn't be that surprised in the end.

uh... I am listening in my Sennheiser HD 800 headphones... and I don't think this is bootleg sourced. It might be straight off the two track master as is, with no contemporary styled sweetening (I think stuff on Crystal Ball was remixed and remastered), but it is all there in this barebones song in my opinion.

[Edited 11/28/16 9:08am]

Listen to "Little Red Corvette" on the same compilation album. Compare the two in sound quality.

ufoclub said:

uh... I am listening in my Sennheiser HD 800 headphones... and I don't think this is bootleg sourced. It might be straight off the two track master as is, with no contemporary styled sweetening (I think stuff on Crystal Ball was remixed and remastered), but it is all there in this barebones song in my opinion.

[Edited 11/28/16 9:08am]

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It's most likely not bootleg-sourced. The 'Blast From The Past 2.0' bootleg release likely received the benefit of an early leak of the recording that would later be used on the official '4ever', something born directly out of the WB deal (although '4ever' was not likely an intended album, nor the release slot for it, P had in mind back in 2014/2015). And that isn't to say that it represents a master; rather, it seems to be a secondary in-house test cassette or vinyl pressing from 1982, and the sound quality is imperfect due to both the inherent quality of that medium and the aging/weathering it has incurred in more than thirty years of disregard.

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'LRC' is very hot in the mix on the album. 'Moonbeam Levels' may resemble that here, but only inadvertently due to the source used and the EQing. There may be a little cognitive dissonance at play as well, as some have speculated that ML segued from 1999 on an early configuration of them.

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[Edited 11/28/16 9:34am]

Certainly there is something odd about 4Ever. The original press release claiming TMBGITW was on the album was just weird. It was like they had a press release but then, had to change details and forgot to change the blurb about TMBGITW. If they can't get their own facts straight on their own press release - what hope is there for the music?

ufoclub said:

uh... I am listening in my Sennheiser HD 800 headphones... and I don't think this is bootleg sourced. It might be straight off the two track master as is, with no contemporary styled sweetening (I think stuff on Crystal Ball was remixed and remastered), but it is all there in this barebones song in my opinion.

[Edited 11/28/16 9:08am]

I've stated that "it's possible" it's from a bootlegged source, not that it necessarily is. Nothing in the version released by WB indicates that it would be from a different source than the BFTP version. The question on how did the version of MB on BFTP end up in the bootleggers' hands is a different one, but based on the evidence, we can't exclude the possibility that the origins of what WB has put out are shady. In many other cases, it would be far easier to dismiss the bootlegged versions as being drastically different to the released one (for example, versions of "Crucial" and so on).

Compare those two versions yourself and then make up your mind about it. Comparisons to other tracks like LRC aren't as relevant to the topic here. They are secondary.

WB's access to the masters is complicated by the situation with the Estate. This was an effortless option, for both sides of bargain.

[Edited 11/28/16 9:53am]

luvsexy4all said:

imprimis said:

ufoclub said:

uh... I am listening in my Sennheiser HD 800 headphones... and I don't think this is bootleg sourced. It might be straight off the two track master as is, with no contemporary styled sweetening (I think stuff on Crystal Ball was remixed and remastered), but it is all there in this barebones song in my opinion.

[Edited 11/28/16 9:08am]

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It's most likely not bootleg-sourced. The 'Blast From The Past 2.0' bootleg release likely received the benefit of an early leak of the recording that would later be used on the official '4ever', something born directly out of the WB deal (although '4ever' was not likely an intended album, nor the release slot for it, P had in mind back in 2014/2015). And that isn't to say that it represents a master; rather, it seems to be a secondary in-house test cassette or vinyl pressing from 1982, and the sound quality is imperfect due to both the inherent quality of that medium and the aging/weathering it has incurred in more than thirty years of disregard.

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'LRC' is very hot in the mix on the album. 'Moonbeam Levels' may resemble that here, but only inadvertently due to the source used and the EQing. There may be a little cognitive dissonance at play as well, as some have speculated that ML segued from 1999 on an early configuration of them.

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[Edited 11/28/16 9:34am]

I didn't just mean the hotness of LRC, but the "bootleg" tone. I mean if you listen in full range to LRC or Moonbeam Levels, then listen to "My Name is Prince" there is a world of difference in the tonal range. Much of the 1999 era stuff was EQ'd to have this kind of radio tone midrange sound.

I had always assumed that "Free" took the place of "Moonbeam Levels" back in 1982. But they tell me never to assume, because it makes an...

I was in Boston for the holidays and actually bumped into Susan Rogers and asked about this track seeing as it was her favorite unreleased song. I mentioned how the sound quality didn't sit right with me and she said that's because it didn't come from the master tape. When I asked her to expand on that, she said that's all she could say but what a missed oppertunity. So I'm thinking no one has access to the vault yet to start taking tapes out and tinkering with the songs. Which would seem to be true from a comment a few weeks ago about they're only have way through documenting the the vault's contents.

The timing has been extended though - possibly through slowing the track down.

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The version on Perfectly Unreleased Prince is 3.56 and on Ivault is 3.54 (This includes The Work 2.0 and Testament mixes too), the version on 4ever is 4.06 long.

.

They sound the same all of them, but can not find the extending as I do not have good audio technology not being one of these guys hammering and banks upon banks of synths, computers and screens with squiggly lines.

I LOVE IT WHEN SOMEONE ACTUALLY KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT!

Thank you.

steakfinger said:

I think what it comes down to is that the track was not remixed from the multitracks. If Prince knew ahead of time that ML wasn't going to be on 1999 then he probably wouldn't have spent the time in the studio doing a proper mix. The estate probably found this particular mix of ML in the vault and mistook it for a final mix. It sounds crusty because it is most likely a pretty good rough mix that never got a proper mix because Prince decided Free should be the one in that slot. It costs time and money to really mix something and this track probably never got that attention. It's a good rough mix and a little cleaner than the boots.

cb70 said:

I was in Boston for the holidays and actually bumped into Susan Rogers and asked about this track seeing as it was her favorite unreleased song. I mentioned how the sound quality didn't sit right with me and she said that's because it didn't come from the master tape. When I asked her to expand on that, she said that's all she could say but what a missed oppertunity. So I'm thinking no one has access to the vault yet to start taking tapes out and tinkering with the songs. Which would seem to be true from a comment a few weeks ago about they're only have way through documenting the the vault's contents.

Just to add my 2 cents, there's no way the version from BFTP comes from a pre-4ever leak because...

1/ It's slightly different (I haven't checked but that's what I've read here, different fade out)

2/ People need to realize that all the outtakes we have are in the hands of some collectors in pristine quality, and were purposedely trashed before being released on boots

3/ There were many other pristine quality sounding songs leaked at the same time, showing an "elite" collector was behind the new leaks

4/ Prince most certainly didn't send it to "some fans"

.

If we're to trust cb70's statement about asking Susan Rogers abut it, I think it solves it all: it may not come straight from a released bootleg but it comes from an already mixed second gen tape that WB obtained one way or another, and wasn't properly remixed/mastered from an original multitrack, which explaines why it doesn't sound anywhere as good as Cloreen Bacon Skin or other Crystal Ball material.

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Also, there is no indication WB wasn't allowed to rerelease TGE: that's yet another urban myth created by orgers many years ago without any substantial evidence, that has become assumed as being a fact after years of being repeated over and again. According to the album's indicia TGE is (p) WB, so unless that was a misprint (which is very unlikely) WB had the masters to that one up until 2014 alongside the rest. The master to TMBGITW would therefore have been copyrighted twice, under 2 slightly different versions though, one as (p) NPG and one as (p) WB. As to why it's not on 4ever, IDK.

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The notion of sueing WB about ML is totally extravagant: WB is entitled to release bootlegs if they so wish, as long as they have the estate's contractual approval. Never in the history of recorded music were labels legally constrained to deliver material of any given sound quality to the public.

[Edited 11/28/16 14:15pm]

databank said:

Also, there is no indication WB wasn't allowed to rerelease TGE: that's yet another urban myth created by orgers many years ago without any substantial evidence, that has become assumed as being a fact after years of being repeated over and again. According to the album's indicia TGE is (p) WB, so unless that was a misprint (which is very unlikely) WB had the masters to that one up until 2014 alongside the rest. The master to TMBGITW would therefore have been copyrighted twice, under 2 slightly different versions though, one as (p) NPG and one as (p) WB. As to why it's not on 4ever, IDK.

TMBGITW isn't on 4EVER because if they put it on this one, what's the selling point of next years greatest hits package?

TGE is a real mystery. If WB do have the ability to release it... why wouldn't they? Bad Blood? From a purely business standpoint it seems illogical that they could, but don't.

I'm far unbiased about this song, but I, for one, am thrilled to have it even in this quality. It sounds great to me, and there's a certain charm to its roughness. I was thrilled with the Blast from the Past mix, and I'll be thrilled if there is a different mix of the song issued on a 1999 remaster.

bfunk said:

This whole discussion is hilarious to me. Listen to the album 1999. That album has sound problems all over it, that have existed since 1982. Moonbeam was recorded around the same time. It is an issue with how things were recorded back then. Hot vocals, and distorted Synth/Drum machine effects.

Moonbeam sounds just as good (or bad) as:

Little Red Corvette

Delirious

Automatic

Agree. 1999 has some distortion. It coudl very well just be that he didn't have good recording equipment at that time. Despite, he released a great album.

cb70 said:

cb70 said:

I was in Boston for the holidays and actually bumped into Susan Rogers and asked about this track seeing as it was her favorite unreleased song. I mentioned how the sound quality didn't sit right with me and she said that's because it didn't come from the master tape. When I asked her to expand on that, she said that's all she could say but what a missed oppertunity. So I'm thinking no one has access to the vault yet to start taking tapes out and tinkering with the songs. Which would seem to be true from a comment a few weeks ago about they're only have way through documenting the the vault's contents.

And I am vindicated. I will accept 2nd generation copy tape outtakes as my reward. PM me

Noodled24 said:

databank said:

Also, there is no indication WB wasn't allowed to rerelease TGE: that's yet another urban myth created by orgers many years ago without any substantial evidence, that has become assumed as being a fact after years of being repeated over and again. According to the album's indicia TGE is (p) WB, so unless that was a misprint (which is very unlikely) WB had the masters to that one up until 2014 alongside the rest. The master to TMBGITW would therefore have been copyrighted twice, under 2 slightly different versions though, one as (p) NPG and one as (p) WB. As to why it's not on 4ever, IDK.

TMBGITW isn't on 4EVER because if they put it on this one, what's the selling point of next years greatest hits package?

TGE is a real mystery. If WB do have the ability to release it... why wouldn't they? Bad Blood? From a purely business standpoint it seems illogical that they could, but don't.

TGE is an album that had very little impact at the time of release, with Prince himself being quite unmotivated to promote it, and I can believe WB had little interest in reprinting it, or at least that it was everything but a priority for them. I actually wonder: were Come, C&D and TVOF4S in physical print for all those last 20 years? I can't seem to find C&D on iTunes for example.

Even TMBGITW, despite being a huge hit at the time, seems to have been quite forgotten: did it get that much radio airplay ever since 1995? A bit like Batdance, I don't think it maintained the interest of programmers past its time, the way some 80's or D&P hits have.

Milty2 said:

bfunk said:

This whole discussion is hilarious to me. Listen to the album 1999. That album has sound problems all over it, that have existed since 1982. Moonbeam was recorded around the same time. It is an issue with how things were recorded back then. Hot vocals, and distorted Synth/Drum machine effects.

Moonbeam sounds just as good (or bad) as:

Little Red Corvette

Delirious

Automatic

Agree. 1999 has some distortion. It coudl very well just be that he didn't have good recording equipment at that time. Despite, he released a great album.

I work in audio. The artifacts in the released version of Moonbeam Levels, as I have stated a few times in the last few days, were not down to poor engineering, but just down to (it's clearly audible) it being a less than first generation sourced track.

jjam said:

Milty2 said:

Agree. 1999 has some distortion. It coudl very well just be that he didn't have good recording equipment at that time. Despite, he released a great album.

I work in audio. The artifacts in the released version of Moonbeam Levels, as I have stated a few times in the last few days, were not down to poor engineering, but just down to (it's clearly audible) it being a less than first generation sourced track.

.

It sounds as though it's been dubbed on a Realistic double deck blaster with a $1.99/3-pack low-ferrite cassette sold at Woolworth's designed to record a Commodore or TRS-80 program.

.

[Edited 11/28/16 18:12pm]

databank said:

Noodled24 said:

TMBGITW isn't on 4EVER because if they put it on this one, what's the selling point of next years greatest hits package?

TGE is a real mystery. If WB do have the ability to release it... why wouldn't they? Bad Blood? From a purely business standpoint it seems illogical that they could, but don't.

TGE is an album that had very little impact at the time of release, with Prince himself being quite unmotivated to promote it, and I can believe WB had little interest in reprinting it, or at least that it was everything but a priority for them. I actually wonder: were Come, C&D and TVOF4S in physical print for all those last 20 years? I can't seem to find C&D on iTunes for example.

Even TMBGITW, despite being a huge hit at the time, seems to have been quite forgotten: did it get that much radio airplay ever since 1995? A bit like Batdance, I don't think it maintained the interest of programmers past its time, the way some 80's or D&P hits have.

TVOFFS is & Come, I can find that on Google Play. But you're right about C&D. Why would they bother to have Come available but Gold not...

I agree that the album had little impact, but the same can't be said for the singles. Even excluding TMBGITW; I Hate U & Gold were hits.

After the single went to #1 TMBGITW re-entered the UK top 20 two months later when the beautiful experience EP was released. The Mustang Mix is IMO the best version of the song, great R'n'B without the drama of the album/single version. There is reportedly a "Mustang Mix 96" so Prince was still playing with the song.

[Edited 11/28/16 18:18pm]

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

cb70 said:

I was in Boston for the holidays and actually bumped into Susan Rogers and asked about this track seeing as it was her favorite unreleased song. I mentioned how the sound quality didn't sit right with me and she said that's because it didn't come from the master tape. When I asked her to expand on that, she said that's all she could say but what a missed oppertunity. So I'm thinking no one has access to the vault yet to start taking tapes out and tinkering with the songs. Which would seem to be true from a comment a few weeks ago about they're only have way through documenting the the vault's contents.

Thanks for this tidbit, it's really interesting, however is there a chance you could clarify something that's a bit ambiguous in it? Namely that when you say "What a missed opportunity" are you quoting Susan Rogers or is that your take on the release of Moonbeam Levels? Thank you.

Yes, please clarify!


I just read all this...still amazed that they would release something that did not come from the master !! But as some have pointed out, it just might not have been available.

Speaking of that, what evidence do we have that Prince was involved in putting together this collection? I keep reading that assertion, but I've never seen a source for it.

I agree that there seem to be some aspects to 4ever that seem to have gone without Prince's approval. I can't seem him approving the inclusion of an unedited "Sexy MF" or "Head", for instance. It could be that Prince was on board (well, as on board as he ever is regarding visiting his older material) with a new compilation, but didn't have much interest beyond greenlighting the eventual tracklist. I don't think we'll ever know for sure, mercurial as Prince was.

Just so the conspiracy theorists won't have a field day, "not from the master tapes" does not mean bootleg.....

CandaceS said:

RaspBerryGirlFriend said:

cb70 said: Thanks for this tidbit, it's really interesting, however is there a chance you could clarify something that's a bit ambiguous in it? Namely that when you say "What a missed opportunity" are you quoting Susan Rogers or is that your take on the release of Moonbeam Levels? Thank you.

Yes, please clarify!


I just read all this...still amazed that they would release something that did not come from the master !! But as some have pointed out, it just might not have been available.

Speaking of that, what evidence do we have that Prince was involved in putting together this collection? I keep reading that assertion, but I've never seen a source for it.

I believe the photographer said that Prince approved the photos. Not only that but we know that Prince was to release previously unreleased material through WB as part of the deal announced in 2014. Also, WB would be stupid to release something they did not already have the contractual right to. People keep bringing up the "estate" but WB has a contract signed by Prince that is still valid. How many releases that's for is the question (as well as what will be on them).

Susan has commented in the past about Prince not caring about sound quality of his recordings and also about has lack of caring about the upkeep of his masters, so a "missed opportunity" could mean several things.

[Edited 11/28/16 19:20pm]