anotherlov3r said:

But that's just it, they didn't want complete autonomy. Complete autonomy would've been, "Oh, really...We can't use the name? Cool. We'll continue UNDER A DIFFERENT NAME and prove we are as talented as we think we are."

You mean to tell me that in 30 years they couldn't manage that?

When the Beatles broke up, none of them continued on by naming their next career phase Beatles.

When Michael Jackson left the Jackson 5, he didn't didn't name his next career phase Jackson 5. As a matter of fact, even his brothers had to use the name The Jackson's.

Smokey Robinson wasn't still a Miracle.

Diana Ross wasn't a Supreme...lots of examples.

And they all actually STARTED those groups and actually CREATED those brands.

Uh. Yeah. You can insist that the name made them and broke them and he was being a jerk or whatever, but the fact remains that they left with whatever skills/talents they came in with and in all these years...well, the story speaks for itself.
[Edited 7/26/16 5:13am]

LBrent said:

anotherlov3r said:

I don't think Prince was being an asshole in this case. I can see why people might see it that way. But one thing is a known. When he was involved with something he was 100% committed, or not at all. He controlled nearly all aspects; which was such a turn off for a lot of people. I mean Prince really was the puppet master behind those groups. Most people know this, right? So I really don't think it was about tootin' his own horn. I feel like he was making sure he wasn't associated with them anymore. Seems like more of a control thing, and trying to protect his creative-self/image. Honestly if I were those artists I would want complete autonomy from P too. Like they say, u can't have your cake and eat it too.

But that's just it, they didn't want complete autonomy. Complete autonomy would've been, "Oh, really...We can't use the name? Cool. We'll continue UNDER A DIFFERENT NAME and prove we are as talented as we think we are." You mean to tell me that in 30 years they couldn't manage that? When the Beatles broke up, none of them continued on by naming their next career phase Beatles. When Michael Jackson left the Jackson 5, he didn't didn't name his next career phase Jackson 5. As a matter of fact, even his brothers had to use the name The Jackson's. Smokey Robinson wasn't still a Miracle. Diana Ross wasn't a Supreme...lots of examples. And they all actually STARTED those groups and actually CREATED those brands. Uh. Yeah. You can insist that the name made them and broke them and he was being a jerk or whatever, but the fact remains that they left with whatever skills/talents they came in with and in all these years...well, the story speaks for itself. [Edited 7/26/16 5:13am]

Well names are a powerful thing.
Even Prince had a weird time when he went from Prince 2 0+> or the Artist.
Locating Prince became hard and he knew it.

the Jackson 5, by the time Michael went solo his name was huge among the Jackson 5. He was the lead, he was the spokesman etc so his name was just as huge or bigger before he even went solo
Diana Ross the same thing. Weren't they known as Diana Ross & the Supremes for a while?

Even Tina Turner knew that she needed to keep that name when she seperated from Ike. That was her 1 stipulation during the divorce.

There are also many examples of people who were a part of a group, being lost in the sea of singers when they went solo.

Beyonce's name was huge before she left Destiny's Child. And it is a great name for a lead artist.

like Prince is

fDeluxe's tribute to Prince was cool. Sorta proved they're a classy bunch of people who don't hold a grudge no matter how difficult things had been.

Take morris out of the purple rain movie and what do you get? Under the cherry moon!

Did jerome competently replace morris? meh ... not really

Take the revolution out of Under the cherry moon and what do you get? Graffiti Bridge

now tell me prince success was all on his own

Take the record companies out of Prince career and what do you get? The choc invasion/ slaughter

aka rubbish

So was prince a talentless hack that was work for hire and WB was the real genius? evidence supports such things as do the legalities of the contract

Did prince treat his buddies and musical collaborators like shit? yes

Did WB treat prince like shit? for a slave prince was spoiled rotten .. emphasis on the word rotten

prince states the Time was morris and prince ... not just prince ... prince states he gave morris the time for party up .. therefore morris owns the time or prince is a liar ... evidence supports that jamie starr is a theif .. btw .. prince and jamie starr are the same person fyi

morris was a huge part of pr success .. many thought he stole every scene he was in .. prince is notoriously jealous, like most narcissist sociopaths ... he got pissed on tour when the time would outshine prince .. he got pissed when morris stole the pr movie and dumped morris for cherry moon ..

I completely agree that record companies treat their workers poorly in terms of masters and ownership. However.. prince was a glutton and took more than his share .. his gripes against wb, valid as they may be, were played out exactly with how he treated his co workers. even after the wb dust settled prince still went out of his way to treat his old friends really badly

I think prince struggled with a lot of issues including drug abuse, the notion he stayed up all night playing for 8 hour stretches or more while not on stimulants, but rather because he was "special" is a load of horse dung. He admitted exstacy on lovesexy (one of his worst records), there were reports of od by emancipation, (another musical and life lowpoint), i think the drugs and ego and pride and general gluttonous behavior got the best of him ... he was a bit like darth vader .. there was still good in him ... we could all see it .. but his anger and hatred and ego all dominated his world and even his music .. i dont think he ever recovered .. i think like most spoiled alchoholic sociopaths, he thought he could keep playing these games and everyone would just forgive and forget because he is prince ... we were all waiting for him to finally grow up and make a mature record .. make up with his old friends .. make another truly great record with the rev ... let the time and family go on tour ... release his old records with bonus trax ... stop suing his fans ... u know stuff u do when u love your fans and the people who helped u get where u are ... aoa isnt half bad in that regard, but perhaps 20 years too late to admit to himself that he made some mistakes and told too many lies ... that would have been step one .. but he never took the next step ...

i believe you can forgive someone who never apologized .. and a guy so caught up in the fame machine and big pharmas agenda to keep everyone addicted and sick, can't be fully blamed .. no one is that strong .. but clearly there was some major douchery at play ... legal or not .. prince became the wb devil he railed so hard against .. to quote my other favorite band .. "u know the man u hate, u look more like him everyday" - JA

TrevorAyer said:

He admitted exstacy on lovesexy (one of his worst records)

This is the point where your post went from hateful rant to obvious trolling.

djThunderfunk said:

TrevorAyer said:

He admitted exstacy on lovesexy (one of his worst records)

This is the point where your post went from hateful rant to obvious trolling.

I can't beleive this place is getting poison again . Even after his death he's getting crap . Am out.

I am leaving with my poison peace and if anyone wants few remaining mint Prince and time cd check appropriate area I'll beat any online price and they are Unplayed and not sealed. Other than that back to Americana blues and bluegrass for me. Really Peace

Regardless of whatever you want to believe, regardless of whether your arguments have merit, regardless of whatever...P's gone now...There's no supposed obstacle for any of them...Let's see if it takes yet another 30 years for them to display/capitalize the talent they supposedly have always had.

I wonder what the new excuse will be.

"Prince did glyphic magyk from the afterword and hexxed us so we couldn't perform anymore!"

Uh huh

LBrent said:

Regardless of whatever you want to believe, regardless of whether your arguments have merit, regardless of whatever...P's gone now...There's no supposed obstacle for any of them...Let's see if it takes yet another 30 years for them to display/capitalize the talent they supposedly have always had. I wonder what the new excuse will be. "Prince did glyphic magyk from the afterword and hexxed us so we couldn't perform anymore!" Uh huh

lol

Agreed about the importance of a name. It's like a brand. But those names (The Time & The Family) were a product of mostly Prince & the other members. Once u take out Prince, they are no more. The other artists should respect that and move on accordingly. If they cannot stand on their own merits and creative direction, that has nothing to do with P.

anotherlov3r said:

Agreed about the importance of a name. It's like a brand. But those names (The Time & The Family) were a product of mostly Prince & the other members. Once u take out Prince, they are no more. The other artists should respect that and move on accordingly. If they cannot stand on their own merits and creative direction, that has nothing to do with P.

the Time, Vanity (6), Sheila E. etc why move on accordingly? Even Prince went back 2 Prince

how, why...

Why doesn't Queen Latifah go by Dana Owens now that she is not a rapper? As well as many of ther other rappers, who no longer rap?

Ok peace

LBrent said:

I am sure if any of the musicians prince collaborated with had a record deal at 18 could hire any band and had the push of the record companies in the way prince did .. and lets not forget the most important part ... looked as attractive as prince did to both sexes .. they would do just fine .. prince got lucky and that tips the scale on success ...

.

there are reasons talentless hacks like bieber and gaga and brittany spears get pushed to the moon while aging genius like frank black or robert smith or niel young get resoundingly ignored ... all the talent in the world won't make u successful without a huge team with a shit ton of money and good looks for the lil fan kiddies to buy up and hang on their wall ...

.

I am only responding to the general sentiment that prince did it all so fuck the time and family .. its garbage .. without those people there would be no purple rain movie or album ... no do me baby, computer blue, dirty mind, large room no light, 17 days, mountains, april, hell even sexy mf .. dnp ... KISS .. so much talent collaborated yet prince acts like, not only should he get the lions share but he goes out of his way to prevent anyone else from benefitting from their own hard work ...

.

u tell me morris cant go by the name the Time cuz prince did it all .. garbage .. morris was the time .. morris was a co lead star in that pr movie ... morris inspired half of prince persona .. morris wrote songs for prince on his records .. andre wrote songs for prince .. fink and lisa wrote songs for prince ... prince father wrote songs for prince ..

.

prince future success was only ever derivative of his past success .. when he dropped the prince brand his sales tanked ... and rightly so ... the music was not as good and the new brand was hell to market ... prince had A LOT OF HELP that was never afforded to his collaborators ... then prince goes out of his way to make it harder on them ... that is not too c o o l ... acting like those people deserve to be treated that way because they did nothing is disgraceful to all the prince related music you all claim to love so much

.

acting like wendy or dez should have amazing careers dancing around like britney spears in las vegas is ignorant to the fact that prince had a lot of opportunities handed to him that those talents did not have access to

[Edited 7/26/16 11:11am]

Ask all of them!

Ask the record company and the attorneys.

Demand the truth!

This is exactly the point I was trying to make.Some people on this thread act as if the proteges brought nothing to the table.I remember when the Purple Rain movie came out,many people (including critics) were saying that "Morris stole the show".He was excellent in that movie.His persona,his "pimp" attitude,his humor....it was brilliant.And truth be told,he was really the only good thing about Graffiti Bridge,lol.

TrevorAyer said:

Take morris out of the purple rain movie and what do you get?

Guitarhero said:

Nooooo, don't let one troll chase you away!

OldFriends4Sale said:

Exactly!
Yes, the name/brand's important, but since you didn't create it, when you move on you don't get to take it with you. And the person who did create it has no obligation to allow you to take it.

Of the above list, Vanity was allowed to keep her "P" name. Doesn't matter why. When she left the industry, she went back to her BIRTH NAME.

SheilaE's BIRTH NAME is Sheila Escovedo. Using SheilaE is using her BIRTH NAME.

Queen Latifah created her name. She owns it.

I don't know about the exact rappers or whoever else you're referring to, but if they CREATED their stage name, they are entitled to use it.

Now on to the Time...Morris Day owns his BIRTH NAME. He, nor any members of the band, own the band name of the Time. The name was created by Prince. He owns it.

WBs, however, DID NOT OWN PRINCE'S BIRTH NAME yet, by contract, owned his music that was created during the time he was under contract. That included use of his name. Not a made up stage name. His real name because that's what he used as his stage name. They could use his name and music in any way they wanted. Not a made up stage name. His real BIRTH NAME. That was his fight. If he'd called himself Poopykins, different story cuz that ain't his BIRTH NAME.

During slavery, one of the first things stripped away from a slave was the ability to use THEIR BIRTH NAME. Slaves's names became the property of the slaveowners. It's history.

He wrote "slave" on his face and started using the symbol as his name to make a public statement to WB that while during that period they owned "the name my mother gave me at birth", he would rename himself to a name of his own choosing that they couldn't control or profit from. When battle was over, he returned to his BIRTH NAME.

Do y'all really not already know all of this P history?

I mean damn...I realize that I've been a fan since the beginning, but I thought that this was all common knowledge if not in the public then surely among other fans.

Sheesh

My last word might b that Prince wrote slave on his face for fading attention and publicity as an inner circle member of the orderPronce was never lacking in clout sorry but the illuminati are real and Prince was up there after Madonna. Gay z and Beyoncr

LBrent said:

Record companies don't own anyone's birth name. Warner Bros didn't own Prince. Columbia Records doesn't own Bob Dylan.
Sheesh...

SoulAlive said:

Morris was PAID to be funny/engaging/charming. He was doing his JOB.

He did it well. So? He was supposed to do his job well.

But here's the thing...if that was truly "him" doesn't it strike you as odd the the only time he was so "talented" was when he was somehow connected to a P project? Somehow getting a leg up/handout/coat tail ride from P?

In over 30 years Morris' talent went unnoticed by everyone/anyone in the industry who could pluck him away from P and nurture his career? No one?

Why is that?

And if it's supposedly P's fault that Morris never got his props, P's gone. Let's see how long it takes for Morris to finally shine.

Or maybe he can't cuz he was mostly just a sock puppet for P and P was trying to take care of Morris, but Morris' ego couldn't accept that he truly couldn't make it without P.

We'll see.

NorthC said:

Guitarhero said:

I can't beleive this place is getting poison again . Even after his death he's getting crap . Am out.

Nooooo, don't let one troll chase you away!

Yeah that! Ignore the bullshit and stick around.

NorthC said:

Depending on how the contract is worded, considering this was the late 1970s-early 1980s, a period that is historically known to be unfair to artists. The record company owned the creative product and could own the name you perform under, therefore they owned your entire brand for the duration of the contract.

BTW, I don't know how the record industry works in other countries, but this is historical in the US. Many artists were cheated and treated unfairly dating back to the 1950s and earlier.
Due to P's public fight with WB, there is now an artist rights organization to help prevent this.
[Edited 7/26/16 12:10pm]

SoulAlive said:

Wendy and Lisa tweeted an article where it stated that the Revolution were his backing band and they responded by saying they weren't just his backing band, they also contributed and help produced some of the songs. Prince was obviously in charge and was the genius behind the albums, but he didn't do it all on his own. Of course, when I became a Prince fan years ago, I wouldn't really know that since they aren't entirely credited. Even if it was contributing a piece of the melody or a hook like Lisa did for Raspberry Beret, she still should be credited. This is not an attack on Prince, it's simply fair that you give credit to those that helped. As far as writing slave on his face, I can't judge since I don't know what it's like to be under a recording contract. If he felt like a slave then it's his right to express that.
[Edited 7/26/16 12:24pm]

You're right Brent, but, it still doesn't mean the record company owns "the entire brand" or "the name you perform under". Dylan is a good example, because he is not only a recording artist, but also a touring artist, an author, a painter and he appears in films... His record company doesn't have anything to do with that.

LBrent said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

the Time, Vanity (6), Sheila E. etc why move on accordingly? Even Prince went back 2 Prince

how, why...

Why doesn't Queen Latifah go by Dana Owens now that she is not a rapper? As well as many of ther other rappers, who no longer rap?

Exactly! Yes, the name/brand's important, but since you didn't create it, when you move on you don't get to take it with you. And the person who did create it has no obligation to allow you to take it. Of the above list, Vanity was allowed to keep her "P" name. Doesn't matter why. When she left the industry, she went back to her BIRTH NAME. SheilaE's BIRTH NAME is Sheila Escovedo. Using SheilaE is using her BIRTH NAME. Queen Latifah created her name. She owns it. I don't know about the exact rappers or whoever else you're referring to, but if they CREATED their stage name, they are entitled to use it. Now on to the Time...Morris Day owns his BIRTH NAME. He, nor any members of the band, own the band name of the Time. The name was created by Prince. He owns it. WBs, however, DID NOT OWN PRINCE'S BIRTH NAME yet, by contract, owned his music that was created during the time he was under contract. That included use of his name. Not a made up stage name. His real name because that's what he used as his stage name. They could use his name and music in any way they wanted. Not a made up stage name. His real BIRTH NAME. That was his fight. If he'd called himself Poopykins, different story cuz that ain't his BIRTH NAME. During slavery, one of the first things stripped away from a slave was the ability to use THEIR BIRTH NAME. Slaves's names became the property of the slaveowners. It's history. He wrote "slave" on his face and started using the symbol as his name to make a public statement to WB that while during that period they owned "the name my mother gave me at birth", he would rename himself to a name of his own choosing that they couldn't control or profit from. When battle was over, he returned to his BIRTH NAME. Do y'all really not already know all of this P history? I mean damn...I realize that I've been a fan since the beginning, but I thought that this was all common knowledge if not in the public then surely among other fans. Sheesh

I think you took my post wrong. I know Prince's history. I'm talking about/was replying to the possible success/lack of success of changing names in the music/acting industry. so calm it down lol 'Sheesh'

I was more focusing on how changing names can lead to lack of success.
It would take a long time to get recognized 'again' if Dana Owens went by her birth name. She did use Dana Owens for her first (non rap) album the Dana Owens album. I think she could start using her real name more.

When dealing with Prince I'm talking about the period pre & post WB where the 0+> was used.

When Prince used the symbol for his name, (especially when it came to online searching) if an album was titled that instead of a typable name, those albums unless a person used the album name, would probably not be so easily found/located. I found that to be true during the late 90s.

A lot of album did not pop up when I was looking for a lot of his 90s music and activity.

Dwayne Johnson doesn't go by the ROCK anymore as an actor. That is working for him.

I guess Vanity (owned) the name... In that he called them Vagina, she came up with Vanity.

LBrent said:

SoulAlive said:

This is exactly the point I was trying to make.Some people on this thread act as if the proteges brought nothing to the table.I remember when the Purple Rain movie came out,many people (including critics) were saying that "Morris stole the show".He was excellent in that movie.His persona,his "pimp" attitude,his humor....it was brilliant.And truth be told,he was really the only good thing about Graffiti Bridge,lol.

Morris was PAID to be funny/engaging/charming. He was doing his JOB. He did it well. So? He was supposed to do his job well. But here's the thing...if that was truly "him" doesn't it strike you as odd the the only time he was so "talented" was when he was somehow connected to a P project? Somehow getting a leg up/handout/coat tail ride from P? In over 30 years Morris' talent went unnoticed by everyone/anyone in the industry who could pluck him away from P and nurture his career? No one? Why is that? And if it's supposedly P's fault that Morris never got his props, P's gone. Let's see how long it takes for Morris to finally shine. Or maybe he can't cuz he was mostly just a sock puppet for P and P was trying to take care of Morris, but Morris' ego couldn't accept that he truly couldn't make it without P. We'll see.

I disagree. Morris Day was actually doing well in the 80s along with Jesse Johnson & Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis. Neither were called the TIME.

Morris had some first album with 2 good hits: Oaktree and a ballad. (to the point Prince felt the need to mock Oaktree during the Love Bizarre video) the next album didn't do as well but did have Fishnet. Morris had a lot of tv and small movie roles.

Morris Day also got married and had children. and focused on his family for a while after Graffiti Bridge.

But I said this before a lot of people struggled in the latter 80s INCLUDING Prince. And Prince struggled for most of the 90s. It was his 1980s foundation along with his continued WB backing that helped him stay afloat in those years.

Even Michael Jackson struggled in the 90s and it was his vast previous career that kept him in the public eye.

What could the Time have been if Prince opened them to creating as a group with him. What could Paisley Park have been if he held on properly to all those wonderful and talented people from the 80s?

Susannah: Good Question. I don’t know. When they come see us live they want to but then they ask, “What do you have out? Is your record getting any radio play?” What are you talking about? Radio play? There is no such thing anymore. People aren’t making music selling music anymore.

Paul: I couldn’t tell you man. The booking agents are the rock stars now. Everyone wants to help until it’s time to really jump in and do something. It’s been very difficult. I wish I could answer that question because then we could get an agent. The band is great. There are something things. We’re a fairly new “old” band, and it didn’t help that we had to change out name. The fact that’s a Catch 22. Agents ask, “Well how many show have you sold out? How man shows have you done?” Well we’re a new band. Then they say, “Well you have no track record.” Yeah, but we do. It’s difficult. What we are doing is booking our own shows. That’s why there have been so few. But every time we play it’s packed.

Rocker: Did Prince force you to chance the name of the band from The Family to F-Deluxe because he owns the name The Family?

Susannah: He doesn’t own the name. He owns the brand. The brand is something that we can’t play with. We could have the name and we could use it. But we couldn’t go out and tour as what they consider the brand of “The Family.” It just became a litigation nightmare. We didn’t want to play it. It wasn’t worth it to us. We were proud of the new music and feel that is holds up perfectly fine.

Paul: We couldn’t afford to fight him in court. My wife says she likes her house and wants to keep it. I have pay my mortgage before I have to pay an attorney. But the fact is he does not own “The Family.” We didn’t want be miserable. We were putting out a record we were funding by ourselves. Sure, we paid a price by not calling it “The Family.” But our core fans knew where we were . In fact, it turned out to be a blessing because if you Google “The Family” you’re not going to get us. You’ll get family planning or something else. In the internet age, it was a smart choice to go back to the old name. I have no regrets.

TrevorAyer said:

If believing that makes you sleep better at night...Mazel.

NorthC said:

It might if he was an inexperienced excited teenager who signed a contract with those things included as part of what the record company would own for the duration of that contract.

I really don't understand this mentality shown about this top, but I do know this...

If we're involved in a project together and work together and it's acknowledged on both sides that we are equal in that project I have no problem sharing equally and we have and BBQs and whatever.

But

If I am involved in a project and it's known that it's my project, I don't care how much anyone else contributes. If I feel generous, I might pass out perks , but that's my generosity not something they're entitled to over and above the pay they got for doing their job. And we can also have fun and travel and picnics and whatever.

And if we part ways, in either scenario, if I'm feeling generous, I might provide further help in the others' personal endeavors but I wouldn't feel it was mandatory. Same with keeping in touch. Doesn't mean I hate them. Just means that chapter is over.

I guess what I'm saying is, just cuz I'm a cool fun generous employer doesn't mean that relationship will extend forever.
[Edited 7/26/16 13:45pm]