SoulAlive said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

In that 1990 interview Prince said he was playing the bad guy but that it was Morris who fired JJam & Terry Lewis... he said 'remember it was Morris's band' lol

I remember that quote Prince didn't wanna admit that he was the one who fired Jam and Lewis,so he blamed it on Morris,lol

ya, no one was fooled, jam and lewis never say "morris fired us" they say "prince fired us". The other thing Prince said about the dissolution of the time i happen to believe. He said that Jesse Johnson wanted to be the star in the band (common) and that's what caused the breakup. Prince probably felt a mix of relief and sadness when they broke up, he claims they were the only band he feared and said they had the makings of one of the greatest r&b bands. He respected them, and if you believe what some of our musician posters have said, took a lot off of the Time. People have claimed that Prince recorded every note of music in rehearsal and would take music from the time and put his name on it. Several members of the time have said that. I always thought "jamie Starr's a thief" was his way of admitting it.

Prince probably owned the names or was trying to claim ownership since the bands were his idea, his concept, his songwriting, his direction.

Then these bands were gonna restart but go on their own, without his direction. So to me, it would be false advertising to call them the same bands ie by the same names. The Time and the Family without Prince's involvement are not the same bands to me as the ones where Prince is the wizard behind the curtain doing and directing everything. Its a branding issue. Prince would have no control over the quality of his brands anymore and any good businessperson would keep control of the brand.

I see it purely as a business decision. Common sense. This is no reflection on the great quality and musicianship of the bands themselves with or without Prince.

it just wasn't necessary to block them, that's a problem to me, whether he owned anything or not. those guys put a lot of hard work into making the time a solid unit. It's probably one of the lesser things I've heard of Prince doing, and worse yet, it was recent so we can't blame immaturity like we can so many of his antics.

Say what you will about the name, but that Fdeluxe album has some good, old school style jams on it. It's also a reminder of how talented so many of the musicians in Prince's circle were. Maybe going it alone with a different name wasn't the worst thing for Eric Leeds, Paul Peterson, Susannah, and Jellybean. There are too many people who don't realize how great a drummer Morris is, but thanks to having a little creative freedom and independence, we now know that Jellybean shreds on guitar.

Militant said:

As far as Prince was concerned, "The Time" was him and Morris. That's it.

During the "Corporate World" sessions, it was *literally* just Prince and Morris doing the album, aside from saxophone overdubs from Candy and backing vocals from Elisa, Margie Cox and Jana Jade.

To Prince, it didn't matter what other musicians were performing the songs, because they weren't writing thm. They were glorified session guys. Hell, Prince's own crew like Dez and Lisa had more input on The Time's songs than actual members of The Time!

To have an album released by "The Time", presumes that Prince is involved. And as the primary songwriter, I get where he's coming from.

As for The Family...... You've got a similar thing happening plus the fact that one of the singer is his ex-fiancee, so that adds a whole level of emotion to it.

At this point, I think both bands should be using their original names.

As a songwriter myself, if I put together (and financed, and owned) a project, I would be very wary of other bandmembers going off and doing that project without my involvement, too.

Folks are not understanding this at all and you explained something very important.

I've seen Morris tour as Morris Day and the Time.

The Time, The Family and all of those groups must have sometype of copyright that is owned by the Starr Corporation or PRN records.

PacManPlus said:

beachy said:

Prince probably owned the names or was trying to claim ownership since the bands were his idea, his concept, his songwriting, his direction.

Then these bands were gonna restart but go on their own, without his direction. So to me, it would be false advertising to call them the same bands ie by the same names. The Time and the Family without Prince's involvement are not the same bands to me as the ones where Prince is the wizard behind the curtain doing and directing everything. Its a branding issue. Prince would have no control over the quality of his brands anymore and any good businessperson would keep control of the brand.

I see it purely as a business decision. Common sense. This is no reflection on the great quality and musicianship of the bands themselves with or without Prince.

Thing is both bands wanted to work with Prince. Both wanted to do some songs with Prince. Both wanted Prince to be a part of it. the Family members + Alan Leeds were communicating with Prince. So they did not 'want to go it alone' The Time wanted to open for Prince Welcome 2 Australia.. there was some back in forth play between Prince & FDeluxe, they also made a musical reply to Prince's Purple & Gold as did Sheila E.

If they did this(try to go it alone) in 1985, I can understand protecting the 'brand'

but this was 2000s, it could only increase Prince's musical genius. It could only exand his history. The 'brand' that he was more intent on hiding or covering up for whatever reason. It wasn't all these 1990s 2000s 'proteges' that helped solidify Prince's foundation, it was the Time, Vanity 6, Sheila E, the Family etc

jaypotton said:

Sometimes he could be a bit of a dick! Oh and likely no money in it for him. Also in later years he was at pains to ensure people knew he was behind ALL of that great music and started to inceasingly include Time songs (and others) in his sets.

Harcore fans knew who Jamie Starr was but the general public didn't.

Plenty of fans and people who were listening to Prince knew who Jaime Starr was.

GhostChick said:

jaypotton said:

Sometimes he could be a bit of a dick! Oh and likely no money in it for him. Also in later years he was at pains to ensure people knew he was behind ALL of that great music and started to inceasingly include Time songs (and others) in his sets.

Harcore fans knew who Jamie Starr was but the general public didn't.

Plenty of fans and people who were listening to Prince knew who Jaime Starr was.

we did, but the average person probably didn't know that Prince composed a lot of the time's material and came up with the concept. But after 30 years, the time isn't relevant, no one cares and I don't think they would have gotten rich off the venture either way, can't understand Prince's refusal. For those men, that had to be a final insult in a long string of insults. He claimed they were friends but most of them have a story, Jesse Johnson says Prince called him up and told him his album sucked, Mark Cardenas almost got fired when he refused to wear blackface in purple rain.

PeteSilas said:

GhostChick said:

Plenty of fans and people who were listening to Prince knew who Jaime Starr was.

we did, but the average person probably didn't know that Prince composed a lot of the time's material and came up with the concept. But after 30 years, the time isn't relevant, no one cares and I don't think they would have gotten rich off the venture either way, can't understand Prince's refusal. For those men, that had to be a final insult in a long string of insults. He claimed they were friends but most of them have a story, Jesse Johnson says Prince called him up and told him his album sucked, Mark Cardenas almost got fired when he refused to wear blackface in purple rain.

For real? Do you have the quote to hand?

MattyJam said:

PeteSilas said:

we did, but the average person probably didn't know that Prince composed a lot of the time's material and came up with the concept. But after 30 years, the time isn't relevant, no one cares and I don't think they would have gotten rich off the venture either way, can't understand Prince's refusal. For those men, that had to be a final insult in a long string of insults. He claimed they were friends but most of them have a story, Jesse Johnson says Prince called him up and told him his album sucked, Mark Cardenas almost got fired when he refused to wear blackface in purple rain.

For real? Do you have the quote to hand?

i probably heard it on here, you can do a search. he also stole the title of jesse's album, made a great song based on it and released it before jesse released his album, just to rub it in. Oh, gosh, don't get me started on my hero who I grieve everyday and some of his antics. Prince, i love you anyway and am proud of the stories that have come out after his passing.

[Edited 6/18/16 0:38am]

jaypotton said:

PeteSilas said:

MattyJam said:

For real? Do you have the quote to hand?

i probably heard it on here, you can do a search. he also stole the title of jesse's album, made a great song based on it and released it before jesse released his album, just to rub it in. Oh, gosh, don't get me started on my hero who I grieve everyday and some of his antics. Prince, i love you anyway and am proud of the stories that have come out after his passing.

[Edited 6/18/16 0:38am]

Yeah, I remember that one. Poor Jesse... I always loved his 80s solo albums too. It's a shame he didn't have more success as a solo star, as he was one talented cat.

There seems to be alot of rumor floating here on the boards. Who knows if its what really happened? Maybe it was the other way around? Maybe not? And regarding this story we also don't know the full facts. Maybe the bands refused to pay a royalty for the name, or maybe there was some other condition or disclaimer that Prince was insisting on. It doesn't seem likely that he would want to spend his time working again with these old bands in the old way, but that is the nature of any creative person, like Prince, that he would not want to revisist the past in the same old way. He had new proteges he wanted to work with and their youth kept him engaged. I just wouldn't judge based on hearsay. But certainly he was acting as a businessperson within his rights to keep the names he had created and developed the concepts for. Thats intellectual property and you don't give it away. And certainly shouldn't be judged negatively for not giving it away. There might have been alot of legal ramifications for giving it away, that's what I suspect and Prince being a control freak also wanted to preserve the legacy of the bands he created. There's nothing wrong with that. Its not a dick move at all.

But making Wendy and Lisa call themselves Gertrude and Matilda was a bit too much! Seriously I like Condensate a lot...whatever name they use

PeteSilas said:

SoulAlive said:

I remember that quote Prince didn't wanna admit that he was the one who fired Jam and Lewis,so he blamed it on Morris,lol

ya, no one was fooled, jam and lewis never say "morris fired us" they say "prince fired us". The other thing Prince said about the dissolution of the time i happen to believe. He said that Jesse Johnson wanted to be the star in the band (common) and that's what caused the breakup. Prince probably felt a mix of relief and sadness when they broke up, he claims they were the only band he feared and said they had the makings of one of the greatest r&b bands. He respected them, and if you believe what some of our musician posters have said, took a lot off of the Time. People have claimed that Prince recorded every note of music in rehearsal and would take music from the time and put his name on it. Several members of the time have said that. I always thought "jamie Starr's a thief" was his way of admitting it.

From what I read, the thing about Jesse wanting to be the lead was after Morris left(or after he realized Morris heart wasn't in it anymore).

Wasn't by 1985 he was already trying to get them back together? recording Music with Morris or something?

I believe the history of the Time is deeper and more diverse than the 1 man Jamie Starr band too.

MattyJam said:

PeteSilas said:

i probably heard it on here, you can do a search. he also stole the title of jesse's album, made a great song based on it and released it before jesse released his album, just to rub it in. Oh, gosh, don't get me started on my hero who I grieve everyday and some of his antics. Prince, i love you anyway and am proud of the stories that have come out after his passing.

[Edited 6/18/16 0:38am]

Yeah, I remember that one. Poor Jesse... I always loved his 80s solo albums too. It's a shame he didn't have more success as a solo star, as he was one talented cat.

I think the times changed in a way that would make it hard for Jesse (as it did with Prince) to traverse the changing musical climate of the latter 80s

Jesse was obviously popular enough in 85 86, being asked do so some music on the Breakfast Club movie soundtrack and such

PeteSilas said:

MattyJam said:

For real? Do you have the quote to hand?

i probably heard it on here, you can do a search. he also stole the title of jesse's album, made a great song based on it and released it before jesse released his album, just to rub it in. Oh, gosh, don't get me started on my hero who I grieve everyday and some of his antics. Prince, i love you anyway and am proud of the stories that have come out after his passing.

[Edited 6/18/16 0:38am]

Prince did do thing that showed he was taking personal jabs at them.

1. mocking Morris Day's Oak Tree inthe live A Love Bizarre video (with Jerome Benton) and all th rest who probably had no issues with Morris Day.

2. he offered a song to Jesse Shocadelica, but Jesse didn't want it and Prince released it at the same time of Jesse's Shocadelica album

3. firing Jerome in 1986 when he did some work with Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis

None of it had to go that way. The Time didn't have to end in 1984.

As much as I love Prince, I have always hated this decision. It seemed petty. I hope The Time and The Family will be able to tour with their original names now.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Prince did do thing that showed he was taking personal jabs at them.

1. mocking Morris Day's Oak Tree inthe live A Love Bizarre video (with Jerome Benton) and all th rest who probably had no issues with Morris Day.

2. he offered a song to Jesse Shocadelica, but Jesse didn't want it and Prince released it at the same time of Jesse's Shocadelica album

3. firing Jerome in 1986 when he did some work with Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis

None of it had to go that way. The Time didn't have to end in 1984.

Well. Yeah, it did. The Time was a shell of itself by Purple Rain. The firing of Jam & Lewis prompted Monte to leave, too. Three down. More than anything, Morris' cocaine habit did him in, and did The Time in. Jesse was done with the bullshit (overall), too. Jellybean stuck around because he had a wife & kid, and needed to work. I can't blame him. The Family was enough reason to put in another year or so. I would imagine he did a lot of studio work after that, especially with Flyte Tyme. (Was he not on Alexander O'Neal's Hearsay album along with most of the Time?)

Prince was playful, and it was a healthy rivalry. But also, Prince might have felt a bit betrayed or hurt by The Time dissolving in front of him. Jam & Lewis doing their thing and being fired. Monte saying "See ya" on the heels of that. Morris putting his paycheck up his nose. He, or anyone, was powerless to stop it. These are guys he's known longer than we've known about them. It had to bother him. When someone, like Morris, who is in self-destruct mode, the only person that can pull up is the one self-destructing. I think Prince got his lick in with "Pop Life" on that. The "Oak Tree" jabs were more in good fun, I believe. Obviously they are still friends to the end, and a bit of public prodding is normal fare. It's puffing.

There are a lot of personalities in The Time, all of which were sure to eventually clash. I think the break up was probably the best thing for them. They were strong, grown up more, and some perspective, and were even more masterful at their craft, by the time Pandemonium came out in 1990. (Hell, that was only 6 years later.)

Was Jerome fired? Or did he finally just skip out? Prince didn't just fire band members, necessarily. They might have fought, or been fined, but he never just ousted folks. If that were the case, he'd have booted Boni Boyer in the middle of the Lovesexy Tour. He knew that he needed people for ongoing projects. Although, really - what did Jerome offer in the way of the recording process?

MattyJam said:

I always thought Prince wrote Dream Factory about St Paul Peterson, or was it about Morris? Didn't he call Paul a punk after he left The Family? I did see recently that Prince had written a list of the different musicians he's worked with who he credited as furthering his musical development, and St Paul's name was on it, so I guess whatever beef he had with Peterson was in the past.

I wonder how Paul helped Prince's musical developement.

MattyJam said:

I always thought Prince wrote Dream Factory about St Paul Peterson, or was it about Morris? Didn't he call Paul a punk after he left The Family? I did see recently that Prince had written a list of the different musicians he's worked with who he credited as furthering his musical development, and St Paul's name was on it, so I guess whatever beef he had with Peterson was in the past.

Yes, "Dream Factory" is said to be about Paul, and the chant "St Paul - Punk of the Month!" happened on the Parade tour after Paul left the fold.

They patched things up after a while. Paul's brother, Ricky Peterson co-produced "The Most Beautiful Girl In The World", and I doubt that would have happened if Prince and Paul were still at odds with each other.

I think Prince grew to understand why Paul left when he did. After all, damn near everyone in the Paisley camp was being offered a record deal left and right by other labels. And Paul just wanted to take the opportunities being offered to him, rather than being sidelined.

It would have been a different story if Prince had put more work into promoting The Family. But he was off filming "Under The Cherry Moon", and unlike "Purple Rain" it was being filmed in France of course, very far away from Minneapolis. So Prince just didn't have time to focus on The Family, and that was obviously frustrating to Paul and the rest of the band.

Militant said:

MattyJam said:

Militant said:

Yes, "Dream Factory" is said to be about Paul, and the chant "St Paul - Punk of the Month!" happened on the Parade tour after Paul left the fold.

They patched things up after a while. Paul's brother, Ricky Peterson co-produced "The Most Beautiful Girl In The World", and I doubt that would have happened if Prince and Paul were still at odds with each other.

I think Prince grew to understand why Paul left when he did. After all, damn near everyone in the Paisley camp was being offered a record deal left and right by other labels. And Paul just wanted to take the opportunities being offered to him, rather than being sidelined.

It would have been a different story if Prince had put more work into promoting The Family. But he was off filming "Under The Cherry Moon", and unlike "Purple Rain" it was being filmed in France of course, very far away from Minneapolis. So Prince just didn't have time to focus on The Family, and that was obviously frustrating to Paul and the rest of the band.

From what I've read, it didn't have much to do with Prince at all. It was shortly after their first gig that Paul was poached by Jam & Lewis who said they wanted to turn Paul into a big star, which is why The Family only ever performed one gig and why the promotion ceased. Can't blame him I guess, although I do wonder if in hindsight, he regretted that decision.

Yeah Paul was frustrated by what wasn't happening via Prince. They possibly could have done other shows, but Prince took Jerome to do the movie and had Susannah & Eric in France. So the band couldn't do anything

But like U said outside influences presented themselves at the opportune time.

Paul Peterson:I have no regrets with that.

You have to remember that Paul is from Minneapolis' first family of music, The Petersons. His late mother, Jeanne Peterson, was an incredible musician, up to her dying day pretty much, and their family has performed all over town, in just about every venue and occasion imaginable.

I don't see Jam & Lewis promising big things to Paul like that, then not following through. That doesn't make sense, and for me it's never a story I've heard. They were working a lot with Alexander O'Neal at the time anyway. And actually in 1985, they'd have been balls deep in working on Control for Janet. For Paul to jump ship from Prince based on what Jam & Lewis allegedly said, while both being so involved with other projects is illogical. I think Paul had a good jumping point and he went for it. If he stayed true to his ambitions and what he wanted, then he did the right thing. Paul went on to work with some artist - what was her name..... oh yeah, PAULA ABDUL. Dismiss her now, but we all know Forever Your Girl was her own Thriller of sorts. fDeluxe musician Oliver Lieber wrote & played & produced on that record, and Paul played on it, too.

By the way, the Rivkins and the Petersons (namely Ricky) has been around Prince for a long, long time. Rivkens earlier, but Ricky Peterson has worked off and on with Prince forever and a day it seems. If anything, Prince did sometimes source great local talent, or at least someone he knew of through local talent. We might not have heard Paul's name a lot in the forefront, but to think he left and did nothing after is simply not true. The guy is a barrell of talent, and so incredibly generous and nice to boot.

Prince and Paul were never enemies afterwards. Paul was at Paisley Park more than a few times over the years, and could easily call Prince up if he wanted (which he did around the time fDeluxe was recording their Gaslight record). Prince was cool, despite saying no to using the name.

What happened after that, because the band had a very short lifespan, didn't it?

Susannah Melvoin:
It was very, very short. We'd come out and done a video and we were about to do some more shows but there was a like a three-week break after 'Purple Rain' just before 'Under The Cherry Moon' (Prince's second movie) came out. During that break I guess Paul had gotten a phone call from John McLean who was running A&R over at A&M Records at the time and called Paul and said "hey, we're thinking that it would be great to fly you out here and meet with Janet Jackson. We want you to produce a couple of tracks for her; we're going to play some of her stuff." He was like "yeah, okay, I'll come out, I have the time, let's do it." When he got out there, it wasn't for that reason. They wanted to sign him. They got him out there and said: "here's the deal: we have a lot of money to give you and we'll make you a giant star." When you're 20 years old you go "okay, yeah. Okay let's do it." So nobody was totally surprised by that. He was the one who was getting the solo deal with tons of money up front. None of us were working for a lot of money. We were all getting paid a pay cheque and those paycheques were tiny. I kid you not: teeny. It was enough to sustain us as single people living in tiny little apartments but not, God forbid, should there be a family involved. So Paul went and did what was right for him and his family. There were some of us who were like "well, that's a big fucking drag" but we all were musicians and just accepted it and moved on. It's not like we were pulled off the street to get this opportunity and then never to see it again; that's not who we'd ever been - we've all been players and singers and writers and producers so we just were like okay, on to the next.

MattyJam said:

Militant said:

Yes, "Dream Factory" is said to be about Paul, and the chant "St Paul - Punk of the Month!" happened on the Parade tour after Paul left the fold.

They patched things up after a while. Paul's brother, Ricky Peterson co-produced "The Most Beautiful Girl In The World", and I doubt that would have happened if Prince and Paul were still at odds with each other.

I think Prince grew to understand why Paul left when he did. After all, damn near everyone in the Paisley camp was being offered a record deal left and right by other labels. And Paul just wanted to take the opportunities being offered to him, rather than being sidelined.

It would have been a different story if Prince had put more work into promoting The Family. But he was off filming "Under The Cherry Moon", and unlike "Purple Rain" it was being filmed in France of course, very far away from Minneapolis. So Prince just didn't have time to focus on The Family, and that was obviously frustrating to Paul and the rest of the band.

From what I've read, it didn't have much to do with Prince at all. It was shortly after their first gig that Paul was poached by Jam & Lewis who said they wanted to turn Paul into a big star, which is why The Family only ever performed one gig and why the promotion ceased. Can't blame him I guess, although I do wonder if in hindsight, he regretted that decision.

That's just not true at all.

Jam & Lewis had nothing to do with Paul leaving.

It was MCA Records that offered Paul a solo deal in 1986. Paul felt that Prince being in France doing Under The Cherry Moon meant that he couldn't spend time working The Family's record. He told Prince as much over the phone, saying "You can't be out in France and be helping us at the same time", to which Prince's reply was "Yes I can - I did it with The Time, and I did it with Vanity 6".

At that point Paul told Prince he was leaving the fold and took the deal with MCA Records. He began working on his solo record with his brother Ricky and Oliver Leiber and it came out in 1987.

If Jam & Lewis had been involved, Paul would have signed to Tabu like Alex O'Neal and Cherrelle did.

Militant said:

Paul Peterson

Did it feel, at the time, like history was being made?

When you're in the middle of it, you're trying to do your best to hang on because things are moving so quickly. And I was right in the middle of it, so it meant rehearsal six days a week, 10 hours a day -- especially during that time, he was meticulous and wanted things perfect and right, and the people that he had hired underneath him -- Jesse Johnson being the person for that time -- he cracked the whip hard on us. Basically, I was all set to go to the University of Minnesota, and I just changed colleges and went to the Minneapolis Sound College of Prince and Jesse Johnson instead. It was the smartest decision of my life. It was an incredible time.