I remember being shocked when I heard that the Family had broken up.It happened only a few months after "High Fashion",the second single,came out.I felt that this album possibly could have had one more single.I would have chosen "River Run Dry".With a dramatic,amazing video,that song could have been a hit.

SoulAlive said:

I remember being shocked when I heard that the Family had broken up.It happened only a few months after "High Fashion",the second single,came out.I felt that this album possibly could have had one more single.I would have chosen "River Run Dry".With a dramatic,amazing video,that song could have been a hit.

I wonder if Prince could have forced Paul to come back, 'fullfill' a contract...

PeteSilas said:

SoulAlive said:

I remember that quote Prince didn't wanna admit that he was the one who fired Jam and Lewis,so he blamed it on Morris,lol

ya, no one was fooled, jam and lewis never say "morris fired us" they say "prince fired us".

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http://www.billboard.com/...ers-prince

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When we get there, it's Prince, [Time members] Jesse Johnson and Morris Day, and me and Terry. Prince says, “Guys, I told you not to produce other acts, but you did, so I'm gonna have to fire you.” I sat there for a second and then walked out. Terry stayed for a little while and tried to reason with him. We went back to the other studio, and the S.O.S. Band song we mixed was “Just Be Good To Me,” which became our first big hit. It bothered Morris a lot. He was very depressed about it, because he felt like The Time should be his band and he didn't get to make the decision.

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Every week, we went into Prince’s accountant’s office to get our checks, wondering if they were going to say, “This is the last check,” but they never did. A month later, we walked in and the accountant says, “We can’t give you a check. We heard you got fired -- it was on the radio.” Prince never told the accountants he’d fired us. He said to Jesse and Morris, “Let’s see how those guys fare,” something to that effect. So we weren’t really fired. It was a bluff, for us to fall flat on our faces, and it backfired.

PeteSilas said:

Prince had to give up his name for a good 5 years in an often futile attempt to beat his record company

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This is a load of bullcrap.

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, he fought tooth and nail

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He did nothing of the sort.

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and then he turns around and makes things as hard as possible for people who were there with him at the start.

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He was doing that while whining about WBR. Go ask Margie Cox.

I think that if Prince were to have allowed them to use the name, people would have assumed that Prince was involved with the band, or was behind it. Everyone knew of Prince's involvement with The Time. Their success, or their failure, would have then fallen on Prince, wrongly. I think Prince knew this and wanted them to succeed without his name being connected to them, even if it was connected them to in error.

I think databank's points are fairly strong. The timing and the struggles for masters suggest to me that this scenario is very likely.

I will say however that if the story is true that Prince paid Morris for Partyup by setting him up with The Time, then either the band (name, masters & all) should belong to Morris or he should get Partyup back. Just sayin'...

@militant

I understand what you're saying regarding this matter but what about this:

If Prince doesn't have any plans to work with or on a project for either act, yet both are interested in releasing music and touring under their original names - which again, Prince isn't using at that time - why not let them?

Is it because he feels the music won't be up to his standard and, as a result, be a poor reflection of him since the public believes he's the brains behind the operations?

Is it to avoid having to battle for the master records to music that he believes should be his and by allowing both groups to do works under their original names, it'll be that much harder for him?

Militant said:

MattyJam said:

I always thought Prince wrote Dream Factory about St Paul Peterson, or was it about Morris? Didn't he call Paul a punk after he left The Family? I did see recently that Prince had written a list of the different musicians he's worked with who he credited as furthering his musical development, and St Paul's name was on it, so I guess whatever beef he had with Peterson was in the past.

Yes, "Dream Factory" is said to be about Paul, and the chant "St Paul - Punk of the Month!" happened on the Parade tour after Paul left the fold.

They patched things up after a while. Paul's brother, Ricky Peterson co-produced "The Most Beautiful Girl In The World", and I doubt that would have happened if Prince and Paul were still at odds with each other.

I think Prince grew to understand why Paul left when he did. After all, damn near everyone in the Paisley camp was being offered a record deal left and right by other labels. And Paul just wanted to take the opportunities being offered to him, rather than being sidelined.

It would have been a different story if Prince had put more work into promoting The Family. But he was off filming "Under The Cherry Moon", and unlike "Purple Rain" it was being filmed in France of course, very far away from Minneapolis. So Prince just didn't have time to focus on The Family, and that was obviously frustrating to Paul and the rest of the band.

So, Prince lied in his RS interview when he said he didn't fire Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis?

*Late to the game/playing "catch up"*

blacksignparade said:

MattyJam said:

craft6 said:

@militant

I understand what you're saying regarding this matter but what about this:

If Prince doesn't have any plans to work with or on a project for either act, yet both are interested in releasing music and touring under their original names - which again, Prince isn't using at that time - why not let them?

Is it because he feels the music won't be up to his standard and, as a result, be a poor reflection of him since the public believes he's the brains behind the operations?

Is it to avoid having to battle for the master records to music that he believes should be his and by allowing both groups to do works under their original names, it'll be that much harder for him?

Militant said:

Yes, "Dream Factory" is said to be about Paul, and the chant "St Paul - Punk of the Month!" happened on the Parade tour after Paul left the fold.

They patched things up after a while. Paul's brother, Ricky Peterson co-produced "The Most Beautiful Girl In The World", and I doubt that would have happened if Prince and Paul were still at odds with each other.

I think Prince grew to understand why Paul left when he did. After all, damn near everyone in the Paisley camp was being offered a record deal left and right by other labels. And Paul just wanted to take the opportunities being offered to him, rather than being sidelined.

It would have been a different story if Prince had put more work into promoting The Family. But he was off filming "Under The Cherry Moon", and unlike "Purple Rain" it was being filmed in France of course, very far away from Minneapolis. So Prince just didn't have time to focus on The Family, and that was obviously frustrating to Paul and the rest of the band.

It could be either of those things, it could be both, it could be another reason, or a combination of any of those things.

The only person that knows is Prince.

I know fDeluxe's manager very well. He's a good friend of mine. And from my understanding, he declined to give a reason to the bands as to why they couldn't use their original names.

But like I said - my personal opinion is that he didn't want them to continue something he started without him being involved.

Your opinion makes a lot of sense !

Then again, is that fair? I read they asked or offered to have him involved and he declined. So, would he have prefered for them to just wait until he felt like it?

I think my struggle to understand comes from how hard he fought with WB in the 90s over similar issues.

Militant said:

craft6 said:

@militant

I understand what you're saying regarding this matter but what about this:

If Prince doesn't have any plans to work with or on a project for either act, yet both are interested in releasing music and touring under their original names - which again, Prince isn't using at that time - why not let them?

Is it because he feels the music won't be up to his standard and, as a result, be a poor reflection of him since the public believes he's the brains behind the operations?

Is it to avoid having to battle for the master records to music that he believes should be his and by allowing both groups to do works under their original names, it'll be that much harder for him?

It could be either of those things, it could be both, it could be another reason, or a combination of any of those things.

The only person that knows is Prince.

I know fDeluxe's manager very well. He's a good friend of mine. And from my understanding, he declined to give a reason to the bands as to why they couldn't use their original names.

But like I said - my personal opinion is that he didn't want them to continue something he started without him being involved.

benni said:

I think that if Prince were to have allowed them to use the name, people would have assumed that Prince was involved with the band, or was behind it. Everyone knew of Prince's involvement with The Time. Their success, or their failure, would have then fallen on Prince, wrongly. I think Prince knew this and wanted them to succeed without his name being connected to them, even if it was connected them to in error.

It would only have been good 4 Prince

BartVanHemelen said:

PeteSilas said:

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http://www.billboard.com/...ers-prince

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When we get there, it's Prince, [Time members] Jesse Johnson and Morris Day, and me and Terry. Prince says, “Guys, I told you not to produce other acts, but you did, so I'm gonna have to fire you.” I sat there for a second and then walked out. Terry stayed for a little while and tried to reason with him. We went back to the other studio, and the S.O.S. Band song we mixed was “Just Be Good To Me,” which became our first big hit. It bothered Morris a lot. He was very depressed about it, because he felt like The Time should be his band and he didn't get to make the decision.

.

Every week, we went into Prince’s accountant’s office to get our checks, wondering if they were going to say, “This is the last check,” but they never did. A month later, we walked in and the accountant says, “We can’t give you a check. We heard you got fired -- it was on the radio.” Prince never told the accountants he’d fired us. He said to Jesse and Morris, “Let’s see how those guys fare,” something to that effect. So we weren’t really fired. It was a bluff, for us to fall flat on our faces, and it backfired.

Never heard that, is that fact or Jam and lewis' conjecture. Prince wasn't always the most organized businessman. Chick either quit or was fired to and remained on the payroll for a good while after he left, even after he sold his story to the enquirer. Prince was a trip.

BartVanHemelen said:

PeteSilas said:

Prince had to give up his name for a good 5 years in an often futile attempt to beat his record company

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This is a load of bullcrap.

.

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He did nothing of the sort.

.

and then he turns around and makes things as hard as possible for people who were there with him at the start.

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He was doing that while whining about WBR. Go ask Margie Cox.

what's a load of bullcrap? Are you saying he didn't try to weasel out of that onerous contract by changing his name? I thought that was pretty well documented.

And, he was doing what while whining about WBR? I'm not sure i'm getting your point. So you think he did something bad, didn't do something bad, not clear.

craft6 said:

Your opinion makes a lot of sense !

Then again, is that fair? I read they asked or offered to have him involved and he declined. So, would he have prefered for them to just wait until he felt like it?

I think my struggle to understand comes from how hard he fought with WB in the 90s over similar issues.

Militant said:

It could be either of those things, it could be both, it could be another reason, or a combination of any of those things.

The only person that knows is Prince.

I know fDeluxe's manager very well. He's a good friend of mine. And from my understanding, he declined to give a reason to the bands as to why they couldn't use their original names.

But like I said - my personal opinion is that he didn't want them to continue something he started without him being involved.

why would Prince doubt the Time's ability? Jam and Lewis by themselves have more hits than Prince and then you have the considerable talents of Jesse Johnson and the rest. I think he was just being mean, it's one of those things I can't make excuses for him for.

I think its a combination of a couple of things. Firstly, Prince saw himself as part of those bands. He was intrinsic to both bands and the music they played. Without him it is not the same band and, in his eyes, should not use the same name they used when he was "in the band"....

Secondly, if the new albums were a big success, bigger than their previous albums, he didnt want to hear that The Time were more succesful without Prince than they were with him. Same thing with The Family.

Whatever the case, Im sure both bands could have taken it to court and the judge would have eventually allowed them the right to use the original names. But nobody wanted that. Anyway, despite a few jabs at Prince in the O7 documentary/promo film, it all seemed pretty amicable from all camps, on the surface at least.

Condensate is an awsome album, irrelevant of what name they used. The lack of success wasnt down to any lack of Prince or branding, and more to do with how big all the egos in the band had become.

Militant said:

craft6 said:

It could be either of those things, it could be both, it could be another reason, or a combination of any of those things.

The only person that knows is Prince.

I know fDeluxe's manager very well. He's a good friend of mine. And from my understanding, he declined to give a reason to the bands as to why they couldn't use their original names.

But like I said - my personal opinion is that he didn't want them to continue something he started without him being involved.

i think this makes a lot of sense. Whatever you want to make of him, Prince was fairly consistent in being wary of anyone making money off his name. Whether he was right about the economics or not, his most consistent reasoning for disliking cover songs, youtube hosted clips etc was that someone was making money off his work without him getting a fair cut. It would make sense to me that he would consider them making money off something he considered part of his legacy by using the names.

PacManPlus said:

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Yep. I have all three on CD. It's *vinyl* I can't find them on.

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The 'Family' CD was a Japanese import (complete with OBI). The two 'Madhouse' albums were from here in the States.

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....try Discogs?

TrivialPursuit said:

Prince owned the names, but (and I've theorized this before), that he also owned the configuration of those bands.

The Time toured as The Time for years, through the 90s and the aughts. But, it wasn't the original seven members. They were down by three most times. Jesse always had a stick up his butt about it, so he wasn't in the band. Jam & Lewis certainly weren't there. So that version of The Time had nothing to do with The Time we knew. But you get Jellybean, Jerome, Morris, Monte, Terry, Jimmy, & Jesse together - then Prince had some say-so in it.

The same goes for The Family, although they never really stayed together until Questlove got them together for a one-off, which sparked them eventually reforming. Paul called Prince, as did Susannah, to ask to use the name, and he refused. But I think of Paul, Jellybean, and another female toured as The Family, they might have gotten away with it. We'll never know.

The Time did stick it to Prince a bit, which I enjoyed, because their Condensate album said "The Band Formerly Known As The Time" on the cover, in the same red bold all-caps font as their first couple of records. So, they still got the name on there.

It was still Prince being a dick, though. But it was also his creation: These people with this name. Different people? Who cares. Same people? Problems.

Militant was right - The Time really was Prince & Morris. That's not undermining any of those guy's talent as musicians or songwriters, but when it came to that band, Prince was the machine behind it. Their talent shines through as professionals in their field on Condensate, which is a solid record through and through. You listen to that and you think "Prince who?". They could have been successes on their own, had the stars aligned correctly. It just so happens they had an assist from a friend who was already on the road to stardom.

The road to a many local band cul de sacs is paved with groups of talented guys who never got an "assist from a friend who was already on the road to stardom." Prince MADE The Time...and, mind you, I LOVE The Time...but without Prince's songwriting, musicianship, production, and label connections, it's very likely that we would have never heard of Morris Day and The Time...and that includes Jam and Lewis. That's the bottom line.

OR maybe Prince realized that if the Time & the Family picked up with him again being from the golden age of Prince wonderfulness, that they would show up x7 his 'current' proteges like Bria Valent & Andy Allo and a few others that people called his proteges

It sounds like it's all conjecture from any of us, none of us really know. All I can say is that it looks meanspirited to me for him to do that to them, that's just my opinion. None of them, Prince included were really culturally relevant at the time and I don't see how it mattered. Why not let them try to make a living? I don't get it.

PeteSilas said:

It sounds like it's all conjecture from any of us, none of us really know. All I can say is that it looks meanspirited to me for him to do that to them, that's just my opinion. None of them, Prince included were really culturally relevant at the time and I don't see how it mattered. Why not let them try to make a living? I don't get it.

'Why not let them try to make a living'

Right. Especially being the 'artists advocate' that he was, he knows how hard going it alone, without a record company can be.

Real Musicians... right?

Who is going to be remembered the Time? Jam and Lewis? Prince?

muleFunk said:

Who is going to be remembered the Time? Jam and Lewis? Prince?

jam and lewis had more hits than prince didn't they? no one is going to forget them. Prince, of course will be the one who lives on in posterity. The Time were never really that popular but they could have been had they not imploded. However, like Prince said, the time had the makings of one of the great r&b groups and like Morris said, he wanted them to be remembered as the kind of band that doesn't come along everyday.

muleFunk said:

Who is going to be remembered the Time? Jam and Lewis? Prince?

Well Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis are well known producers and being attached to Prince & Janet Jackson alone will always have their names in remembrance...
The Time just by the way of Purple Rain the movie will be remembered

and of course Prince... silly question.

Jam and Lewis were hella producers but who remembers producers?

Leon Sylvers had more hits than they did but people don't know who he is.

I'm not discrediting Jam and Lewis but you can't serve two masters because someone is not going to lose out. Prince was justified in firing them. Jam and Lewis was justified in doing what they did.

It was a win-win situation.

there could easily be more derivative or directly related names than what they went with and that would have cued people in whilst making them question the change and realising that this was how the groups sounded *after* they had stuff written or produced by Prince

lwr001 said:

ROLLING STONE (1985)

BY NEAL KARLEN

MOJO: You've always maintained contact with people that you've always been in contact with.

PRINCE: Oh yeah. Without a doubt, there's people who have flown the coop, so to speak, and gone off to do their own thing, which is great and I stand behind them and support them, whatever they do. But contrary to rumors, we're all real tight still, and I have a strange feeling we're all going to be together again one day. We'll have to see.

MOJO: Do you think that there is a possibility that after this movie has been released, that...I've just heard rumors through the grapevine that there's a possibility that The Time is gonna record again...?

PRINCE: Well, Mojo. anything's possible. God willing and hopefully everybody's head will be in the right place. I'd like to see all that happen. They were, to be perfectly honest, the only band that I was afraid of. And, they were turning into like...Godzilla, and certain things happened and different waves flowed, different winds blew and everybody fell apart. But, I still love all those guys... and I hope they get back together 'cuz I want some competition, ya know? (both laugh)