They should have been allowed to use the names. There were ways to do it without putting anything at risk to which Prince legitimately had a right.

MattyJam said:

Militant said:

As a songwriter myself, if I put together (and financed, and owned) a project, I would be very wary of other bandmembers going off and doing that project without my involvement, too.

I'm pretty sure Warners would've been the ones to finance The Time and The Family, not Prince.

I'm sure that any seed money spent by Warner Bros. on the groups was recouped many, many times over.

blacksignparade said:

. . What's more baffling is that he never made the family and madhouse albums in cd format. Can you believe that? Now that they're all over the Internet we, as in those that only had cassettes of them, can all finally listen to them again. . .

Uh...they are all on CD format. In fact, they're quite highly sought after in that format, and if you're willing to pay for it, you can own those CDs.

MattyJam said:

Militant said:

As a songwriter myself, if I put together (and financed, and owned) a project, I would be very wary of other bandmembers going off and doing that project without my involvement, too.

I'm pretty sure Warners would've been the ones to finance The Time and The Family, not Prince.

The bandmembers for both bands were on P's payroll and he was the one determining their salary, who was hired, fired, paid or not paid. Ultimately when it comes to studio costs and all P was spending WB's money yes, but WB gave him that money either in advance or royalties because they made money from his record sales, so in the end whatever WB gave P was P's earned money.

Prince owned the names, but (and I've theorized this before), that he also owned the configuration of those bands.

The Time toured as The Time for years, through the 90s and the aughts. But, it wasn't the original seven members. They were down by three most times. Jesse always had a stick up his butt about it, so he wasn't in the band. Jam & Lewis certainly weren't there. So that version of The Time had nothing to do with The Time we knew. But you get Jellybean, Jerome, Morris, Monte, Terry, Jimmy, & Jesse together - then Prince had some say-so in it.

The same goes for The Family, although they never really stayed together until Questlove got them together for a one-off, which sparked them eventually reforming. Paul called Prince, as did Susannah, to ask to use the name, and he refused. But I think of Paul, Jellybean, and another female toured as The Family, they might have gotten away with it. We'll never know.

The Time did stick it to Prince a bit, which I enjoyed, because their Condensate album said "The Band Formerly Known As The Time" on the cover, in the same red bold all-caps font as their first couple of records. So, they still got the name on there.

It was still Prince being a dick, though. But it was also his creation: These people with this name. Different people? Who cares. Same people? Problems.

Militant was right - The Time really was Prince & Morris. That's not undermining any of those guy's talent as musicians or songwriters, but when it came to that band, Prince was the machine behind it. Their talent shines through as professionals in their field on Condensate, which is a solid record through and through. You listen to that and you think "Prince who?". They could have been successes on their own, had the stars aligned correctly. It just so happens they had an assist from a friend who was already on the road to stardom.

Spite.

MattyJam said:

keenly said:

That is not the point. Prince could have been kind hearted and let them make some money. He was very selfish at times.

Yeah, I mean these people were his friends, fiancee, schoolmates... Regardless of what went down back in the day, by the time these two bands were reforming in the mid-late 00's, Prince was a multi-millionaire/legend and they just wanted to play together again for the fans who enjoyed their music. It takes a very petty and selfish man to stand in the way of that.

Prince didn't stand in the way of them playing together.

paulludvig said:

MattyJam said:

keenly said: Yeah, I mean these people were his friends, fiancee, schoolmates... Regardless of what went down back in the day, by the time these two bands were reforming in the mid-late 00's, Prince was a multi-millionaire/legend and they just wanted to play together again for the fans who enjoyed their music. It takes a very petty and selfish man to stand in the way of that.

Prince didn't stand in the way of them playing together.

Yep, they both put out albums, around the same time, and they were wonderful. They both toured, etc. He didn't stop them from doing anything, other than using a name. But folks know what show they're going to.

Gaslight is so rich, and textured. It's The Family through and through, yet very grown and fresh. Condensate is as funky as anything Prince wrote for them. To me, it's better than Pandemonium or Ice Cream Castles.

blacksignparade said:

. . What's more baffling is that he never made the family and madhouse albums in cd format. Can you believe that? Now that they're all over the Internet we, as in those that only had cassettes of them, can all finally listen to them again. . .

I doubt that was his decision. All three of those albums were released when CDs were still something of a premium, used almost exclusively for high-volume, "blockbuster" releases in the U.S. They were eventually released on CD, but in very limited quantities.

lastdecember said:

We fail to realize that the Family were a protege band of his that did not even have a hit single, "Screams of Passion" was hardly a well known hit, so unless you were in the Prince world then we were the only ones knowing who these artists are. I mean do we think mainstream america know who Jill Jones, Eric Leeds, Madhouse etc... are?

I don't remember whether it charted, but Screams of Passion was well-enough known that the video was played occasionally on MTV and in fairly heavy rotation on BET.

Jill Jones, on the other hand, had next to no promotion for her album, which was released to CD in the U.S., and you're right, like Madhouse, it was really only known to Prince fans. Eric Leeds' releases were even more obscure.

databank said:

My take is that it was about the masters and was advised by P's lawyers.

WB owns the masters for all The Time albums. I'm pretty sure Prince wanted to get them back at some point.

The status of The Family's master is unknown: might be Prince, might be WB.

In all cases affirming his ownership of the band's names made sure that he could have a claim on the masters when trying to reclaim them from WB, and it helped making sure the original bands couldn't claim the masters for themselves after 35 years.

In the mid 2000's Prince filed copyright notices for several band names including Mazarati and Good Questions (2 bands he was hardly involved with, not at all even in the case of GQ). Incidentally Prince owns the masters for those 2 Paisley Park albums: I see no other purpose than making sure he could do his best to keep a hold on them. I am pretty sure that if Prince had had any legal way to prevent Sheila E., Carmen Electra, Eric Leeds or Jill Jones to use their names he would have done the same for the sake of the masters

databank: I'm kinda getting what you are saying, but him retaining his masters after 35 years did not require his name change or the change of anyone else's name. Fact is, Prince wanted his masters back "RIGHT NOW" and STILL didn't get them until the Revision Act took effect when it said it would, 35 years!!! Therefore, no one needed to change names EVER....

databank said:

MattyJam said:

Militant said: I'm pretty sure Warners would've been the ones to finance The Time and The Family, not Prince.

The bandmembers for both bands were on P's payroll and he was the one determining their salary, who was hired, fired, paid or not paid. Ultimately when it comes to studio costs and all P was spending WB's money yes, but WB gave him that money either in advance or royalties because they made money from his record sales, so in the end whatever WB gave P was P's earned money.

Exactly.

We all know how strict Prince was with his image and creations, but I must say I found his stance against these bands mean. He had his reasons of course.

roxy831 said:

databank said:

My take is that it was about the masters and was advised by P's lawyers.

WB owns the masters for all The Time albums. I'm pretty sure Prince wanted to get them back at some point.

The status of The Family's master is unknown: might be Prince, might be WB.

In all cases affirming his ownership of the band's names made sure that he could have a claim on the masters when trying to reclaim them from WB, and it helped making sure the original bands couldn't claim the masters for themselves after 35 years.

In the mid 2000's Prince filed copyright notices for several band names including Mazarati and Good Questions (2 bands he was hardly involved with, not at all even in the case of GQ). Incidentally Prince owns the masters for those 2 Paisley Park albums: I see no other purpose than making sure he could do his best to keep a hold on them. I am pretty sure that if Prince had had any legal way to prevent Sheila E., Carmen Electra, Eric Leeds or Jill Jones to use their names he would have done the same for the sake of the masters

databank: I'm kinda getting what you are saying, but him retaining his masters after 35 years did not require his name change or the change of anyone else's name. Fact is, Prince wanted his masters back "RIGHT NOW" and STILL didn't get them until the Revision Act took effect when it said it would, 35 years!!! Therefore, no one needed to change names EVER....

U didn't get me.

According to the very unspecific and yet very untested reversal law, "the artist" can claim back masters after 35 years.

Who's "the artist" on the covers of the Time and Family albums? The Time and The Family.

Who was in fact the creative force behind those projects? Prince.

Can Prince claim the Time masters from WB: Theorically no. I'm pretty sure he tried when he negociated the 2014 deal and that WB said "no: technically those are not your records to claim". I'm also sure Prince wanted to claim them after 35 years would have passed for each specific record. Possibly the same with The Family if WB has it too. Same with the 6's and Sheila E. But given that those were not obviously his records to claim, this means demonstrating to a judge that he has a legitimate claim on them, or the judge may say "who are you? I'll gladly give the masters back to those bands or artists, but who are you to reclaim them?". Prince doesn't want that to happen, does he?

That's for WB. Then come The Time and The Family (the real people in those bands). Theorically they could also claim those masters for themselves. From either WB or Prince for that matter. Prince doesn't want that to happen either, does he?

So Prince begins by making sure he has the names: then in court his lawyers can say "see, my client managed to prevent those bands from using the names, demonstrating that those records, the music on them and the concept behind the whole project, are the product of his creativity, not the creativity of those people in those bands, and by agreeing not to use the names those bands have proven it". That gives Prince weight to claim the masters from WB and/or to protect his ownership of them if challenged by the bands themselves (though I doubt they would have bothered).

Of course this is all speculation but it makes a lot of sense, and I don't see why Prince would have made such a fuss about it if not for that.

I also don't think he was such an ass about this. Virtually anyone who actually happens to knowwho The Time and The Family are, and is likely to buy their records or go see them live, knows that The O7 and FDeluxe are the same people. So I don't believe Prince has done much harm to them by keeping the name. The first 3 Time albums and The Family are Prince projects, entirely, he had a right to try and make sure he could get/keep the masters as much as for his own "Prince" projects.

databank said:

roxy831 said:

databank: I'm kinda getting what you are saying, but him retaining his masters after 35 years did not require his name change or the change of anyone else's name. Fact is, Prince wanted his masters back "RIGHT NOW" and STILL didn't get them until the Revision Act took effect when it said it would, 35 years!!! Therefore, no one needed to change names EVER....

U didn't get me.

According to the very unspecific and yet very untested reversal law, "the artist" can claim back masters after 35 years.

Who's "the artist" on the covers of the Time and Family albums? The Time and The Family.

Who was in fact the creative force behind those projects? Prince.

Can Prince claim the Time masters from WB: Theorically no. I'm pretty sure he tried when he negociated the 2014 deal and that WB said "no: technically those are not your records to claim". I'm also sure Prince wanted to claim them after 35 years would have passed for each specific record. Possibly the same with The Family if WB has it too. Same with the 6's and Sheila E. But given that those were not obviously his records to claim, this means demonstrating to a judge that he has a legitimate claim on them, or the judge may say "who are you? I'll gladly give the masters back to those bands or artists, but who are you to reclaim them?". Prince doesn't want that to happen, does he?

That's for WB. Then come The Time and The Family (the real people in those bands). Theorically they could also claim those masters for themselves. From either WB or Prince for that matter. Prince doesn't want that to happen either, does he?

So Prince begins by making sure he has the names: then in court his lawyers can say "see, my client managed to prevent those bands from using the names, demonstrating that those records, the music on them and the concept behind the whole project, are the product of his creativity, not the creativity of those people in those bands, and by agreeing not to use the names those bands have proven it". That gives Prince weight to claim the masters from WB and/or to protect his ownership of them if challenged by the bands themselves (though I doubt they would have bothered).

Of course this is all speculation but it makes a lot of sense, and I don't see why Prince would have made such a fuss about it if not for that.

I also don't think he was such an ass about this. Virtually anyone who actually happens to knowwho The Time and The Family are, and is likely to buy their records or go see them live, knows that The O7 and FDeluxe are the same people. So I don't believe Prince has done much harm to them by keeping the name. The first 3 Time albums and The Family are Prince projects, entirely, he had a right to try and make sure he could get/keep the masters as much as for his own "Prince" projects.

Your guess about the behind-the-scenes actions may have a point, but I dare not follow that speculation. I'd have to have the contract in my hand and read it for myself before supporting the notion that changing names was ever necessary.

roxy831 said:

databank said:

U didn't get me.

According to the very unspecific and yet very untested reversal law, "the artist" can claim back masters after 35 years.

Who's "the artist" on the covers of the Time and Family albums? The Time and The Family.

Who was in fact the creative force behind those projects? Prince.

Can Prince claim the Time masters from WB: Theorically no. I'm pretty sure he tried when he negociated the 2014 deal and that WB said "no: technically those are not your records to claim". I'm also sure Prince wanted to claim them after 35 years would have passed for each specific record. Possibly the same with The Family if WB has it too. Same with the 6's and Sheila E. But given that those were not obviously his records to claim, this means demonstrating to a judge that he has a legitimate claim on them, or the judge may say "who are you? I'll gladly give the masters back to those bands or artists, but who are you to reclaim them?". Prince doesn't want that to happen, does he?

That's for WB. Then come The Time and The Family (the real people in those bands). Theorically they could also claim those masters for themselves. From either WB or Prince for that matter. Prince doesn't want that to happen either, does he?

So Prince begins by making sure he has the names: then in court his lawyers can say "see, my client managed to prevent those bands from using the names, demonstrating that those records, the music on them and the concept behind the whole project, are the product of his creativity, not the creativity of those people in those bands, and by agreeing not to use the names those bands have proven it". That gives Prince weight to claim the masters from WB and/or to protect his ownership of them if challenged by the bands themselves (though I doubt they would have bothered).

Of course this is all speculation but it makes a lot of sense, and I don't see why Prince would have made such a fuss about it if not for that.

I also don't think he was such an ass about this. Virtually anyone who actually happens to knowwho The Time and The Family are, and is likely to buy their records or go see them live, knows that The O7 and FDeluxe are the same people. So I don't believe Prince has done much harm to them by keeping the name. The first 3 Time albums and The Family are Prince projects, entirely, he had a right to try and make sure he could get/keep the masters as much as for his own "Prince" projects.

Your guess about the behind-the-scenes actions may have a point, but I dare not follow that speculation. I'd have to have the contract in my hand and read it for myself before supporting the notion that changing names was ever necessary.

Yes of course we can't know for sure. Hopefully a lot of those behind the scene things will be told at some point.

I didn't like it when I heard it and thought that "he never will change". I'm glad that we're hearing how giving he was to many people after he died because I used to hate hearing those kinds of stories about my hero, and I'd been reading about them for 30 years. As I've gotten older I notice a real pattern with human beings, they do to others exactly what was done to them. They may rail against the oppressor but they've also internalized so much of how the oppressor operates that they often aren't even conscious of imitating them. Prince had to give up his name for a good 5 years in an often futile attempt to beat his record company, he fought tooth and nail and then he turns around and makes things as hard as possible for people who were there with him at the start. His death can't make me forget the stories I've heard about him over the years. So, did he have a right to do what he did? Yes, should he have done it? I don't think so.

We don't know all sides of the story (I.e. Prince's side).

What we do know is that both The Time and The Family members expressed unconditional love and respect for Prince when he died. So I wouldn't be too quick to judge.

RodeoSchro said:

We don't know all sides of the story (I.e. Prince's side).

What we do know is that both The Time and The Family members expressed unconditional love and respect for Prince when he died. So I wouldn't be too quick to judge.

death changes everything but i guarantee you they weren't happy about what was done.

Prince formed the Time as an alter ego for himself. He was too busy trying to crossover to the white audience at the time and didn't want to release something that black in his own name so he got the time together. I do not think he did everything on those albums although he did a lot of it. I think Fink had some input at any rate, I loved The Time's debut from the moment I first heard the needle hit the wax and remember it like it was yesterday, now, that my friends, was the mark of Prince to me.

RodeoSchro said:

We don't know all sides of the story (I.e. Prince's side).

What we do know is that both The Time and The Family members expressed unconditional love and respect for Prince when he died. So I wouldn't be too quick to judge.

There's a STRONG contrast between how anyone associated with Prince speaks of him and how fans speak of him. It has to mean something.

ASSOCIATES: This is how it happened. Prince did wonderful things for me and a few bad things as well. He could be mean sometimes but he could also be extraordinarily generous and kind. I love him and I'm grateful for all the things we shared.

FANS: Prince was a horrible bastard, a monster who treated everyone like shit all the time.

PeteSilas said:

I didn't like it when I heard it and thought that "he never will change". I'm glad that we're hearing how giving he was to many people after he died because I used to hate hearing those kinds of stories about my hero, and I'd been reading about them for 30 years. As I've gotten older I notice a real pattern with human beings, they do to others exactly what was done to them. They may rail against the oppressor but they've also internalized so much of how the oppressor operates that they often aren't even conscious of imitating them. Prince had to give up his name for a good 5 years in an often futile attempt to beat his record company, he fought tooth and nail and then he turns around and makes things as hard as possible for people who were there with him at the start. His death can't make me forget the stories I've heard about him over the years. So, did he have a right to do what he did? Yes, should he have done it? I don't think so.

Best post I've read on the org in quite some time. It is so true what you say about Prince doing to others exactly what was done to him.

And for those argueing that Prince has a bigger right to own the masters for those albums than The Time/Family... would you say that about any other artist who made an album with an outside producer? Should Teddy Riley have a claim to Dangerous in ten years time? By that logic, Joshua Welton should own the master recordings to HitNRun Phase 1 and possibly AOA.

databank said:

MattyJam said:

In the past, even when I didn't necessarily agree with some of Prince's decisions (such as his stance on YouTube), I could at least understand where he was coming from. But his treatment of the original bandmates in The Time and The Family, refusing to let them reform under the names that made them famous and forcing them to reform under The Original 7ven and fDeluxe respectively was just plain cold and indefensible. What was Prince's reason for doing this? [Edited 6/17/16 2:42am]

My take is that it was about the masters and was advised by P's lawyers.

You lost me with the premise that Prince had lawyers. I mean he had a civil rights attorney when he died, ostensiby to, um, protect his, err, civil rights??? IDK.

MattyJam said:

I wonder if Prince kept hold of some unresolved animosity, especially towards Jam & Lewis, St Paul and Jesse Johnson. Perhaps this is why he refused to help them out when the bands wanted to reform. It's no secret that he wrote Dream Factory about Paul, and refered to him as "punk of the month." And I think he felt bitter about Jam & Lewis leaving the fold when they did and Jesse has ran his mouth off in the past about Prince. [Edited 6/17/16 4:57am]

I STRONGLY doubt Prince had negative feelings against the individual members. I think he just knew that he would not get the vast majority of the band's earnings going forward, and so he felt like 'fuckit then'.

databank said:

RodeoSchro said:

We don't know all sides of the story (I.e. Prince's side).

What we do know is that both The Time and The Family members expressed unconditional love and respect for Prince when he died. So I wouldn't be too quick to judge.

There's a STRONG contrast between how anyone associated with Prince speaks of him and how fans speak of him. It has to mean something.

ASSOCIATES: This is how it happened. Prince did wonderful things for me and a few bad things as well. He could be mean sometimes but he could also be extraordinarily generous and kind. I love him and I'm grateful for all the things we shared.

FANS: Prince was a horrible bastard, a monster who treated everyone like shit all the time.

That isn't faire databank. Most fans talk about Prince the same way you posted about the Associates. There are many of us who see things in a balanced way. Yes there are people who have that 100% negative mindset. But what about the fans that literally see no wrong with Prince. Everything he does is a masterpiece, Prince was perfect etc, I even ran into a woman that loved Prince so much she was literally angry at Morris Day for what 'what he did to Prince' in Purple Rain.

But people do have differing percentages of how they view things. From Prince business, relations & music.

Read the thread about Extralovable. And I understand what many are saying. I abhor rape, but when Prince does what he does in that song, I see art. People are not tearing Prince up for that piece in the song.

databank said:

RodeoSchro said:

We don't know all sides of the story (I.e. Prince's side).

What we do know is that both The Time and The Family members expressed unconditional love and respect for Prince when he died. So I wouldn't be too quick to judge.

There's a STRONG contrast between how anyone associated with Prince speaks of him and how fans speak of him. It has to mean something.

ASSOCIATES: This is how it happened. Prince did wonderful things for me and a few bad things as well. He could be mean sometimes but he could also be extraordinarily generous and kind. I love him and I'm grateful for all the things we shared.

FANS: Prince was a horrible bastard, a monster who treated everyone like shit all the time.

They are just keeping it professional for the press. Likewise, the media isn't here for any back and forth bullsht between Prince and his former protoges anyway, so it's not like the negative stories were going to get printed in major publications anyway. Add to that when someone does speak from the heart and their opinion of Prince isn't high, fans tears at them, hold grusges and disregard their POV, so why bother?

PeteSilas said:

RodeoSchro said:

We don't know all sides of the story (I.e. Prince's side).

What we do know is that both The Time and The Family members expressed unconditional love and respect for Prince when he died. So I wouldn't be too quick to judge.

death changes everything but i guarantee you they weren't happy about what was done.

Prince formed the Time as an alter ego for himself. He was too busy trying to crossover to the white audience at the time and didn't want to release something that black in his own name so he got the time together. I do not think he did everything on those albums although he did a lot of it. I think Fink had some input at any rate, I loved The Time's debut from the moment I first heard the needle hit the wax and remember it like it was yesterday, now, that my friends, was the mark of Prince to me.

It is a human thing to show the more 'caring' side even more when someone get's sick or dies.
No one goes around overlooking things done to them or little spats or whatnot. I think it is fake for people to act like a person is 100% the best and we ignore 'relations' issues.

Truth is still truth.

Now I do know someone who when their 'friend' got sick and rushed to the hospital literally went to the hospital and went off on them, accusing them of not being the best person. No that is irrational.

But it showed who the person was and what was in their heart the whole time.

the Associate artists/band members from the 80s have always been real.

Militant said:

databank said:

The bandmembers for both bands were on P's payroll and he was the one determining their salary, who was hired, fired, paid or not paid. Ultimately when it comes to studio costs and all P was spending WB's money yes, but WB gave him that money either in advance or royalties because they made money from his record sales, so in the end whatever WB gave P was P's earned money.

Exactly.

In that 1990 interview Prince said he was playing the bad guy but that it was Morris who fired JJam & Terry Lewis... he said 'remember it was Morris's band' lol

it might be soon to ask this question,but.....

Now that Prince is gone,can these bands now use their original names? I guess it's now up his estate?

OldFriends4Sale said:

Militant said:

Exactly.

In that 1990 interview Prince said he was playing the bad guy but that it was Morris who fired JJam & Terry Lewis... he said 'remember it was Morris's band' lol

I remember that quote Prince didn't wanna admit that he was the one who fired Jam and Lewis,so he blamed it on Morris,lol

MattyJam said:

PeteSilas said:

I didn't like it when I heard it and thought that "he never will change". I'm glad that we're hearing how giving he was to many people after he died because I used to hate hearing those kinds of stories about my hero, and I'd been reading about them for 30 years. As I've gotten older I notice a real pattern with human beings, they do to others exactly what was done to them. They may rail against the oppressor but they've also internalized so much of how the oppressor operates that they often aren't even conscious of imitating them. Prince had to give up his name for a good 5 years in an often futile attempt to beat his record company, he fought tooth and nail and then he turns around and makes things as hard as possible for people who were there with him at the start. His death can't make me forget the stories I've heard about him over the years. So, did he have a right to do what he did? Yes, should he have done it? I don't think so.

Best post I've read on the org in quite some time. It is so true what you say about Prince doing to others exactly what was done to him.

And for those argueing that Prince has a bigger right to own the masters for those albums than The Time/Family... would you say that about any other artist who made an album with an outside producer? Should Teddy Riley have a claim to Dangerous in ten years time? By that logic, Joshua Welton should own the master recordings to HitNRun Phase 1 and possibly AOA.

I don't know, but he must have had some legal claim because both groups listened to him. All I know is I didn't like it and thought it was mean. I called Prince a punk when I told my best friend, another long time, although not as fanatical prince follower, what he did. You don't do that to your brothers and friends since childhood. No reason for it.